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Patrick
03-28-2005, 04:13 PM
I was actually away for the weekend. Took a 2 day trip down to Dallas for the Easter holiday. I wanted to comment on my recent trip.

Most of my comments are negative, so I suppose I'll start with th epositive comments. Dallas has an extremely nice commuter rail system. It's grown since last time I was there, thoroughly impressed with the expansion of the DART system. As usual, Dallas offers a great shopping experience, which was one of my main reasons for going. Of course, Dallas has a large airport, one of the largest in the world.

But, as far as everything else is concerned, I would rate Dallas below OKC on all measures.

We complain a lot here about the lack of concern for beautification in our city. After visiting Dallas, I was happy to get back to our city, noticing that our highways were actually cleaner than Dallas' roadways. Dallas is literally a sea of concrete; they haven't spent a lot of time or money on city-wide beautification.
Traffic is always horrible in Dallas....drivers drive like Redneck maniacs.
I honestly like Bricktown better than Dallas' West End. The ballpark and canal add so much to our Bricktown area. Their trolley system downtown is impressive, but overall, I'd say their downtown is no nicer than ours. Strange, but I actually felt there was more life in our downtown area.
Dallas, like OKC, has no landscape, and no trees. It's actually quite ugly in the scenery department.

Dallas obvious seems so much larger than OKC and offers a greater selection of retail stores, but honestly, that's the only positive thing I could find in Dallas.

Will I go back to Dallas? Probably not for another 5 or 6 years!
Other than for sheer size, I don't see Dallas having any advantages over OKC in quality of life!

Sooner&RiceGrad
03-28-2005, 05:16 PM
Oh come on! Dallas, while not measuring up to the world's greatest city (OKC Duh!) is a great city.

Houston is better though.

mranderson
03-28-2005, 06:20 PM
Oh come on! Dallas, while not measuring up to the world's greatest city (OKC Duh!) is a great city.

Houston is better though.

You can like Dallas and Houston all you want. I lived in that hole called Dallas for eight lousy years, and hated every minute of it.

Nuclear_2525
03-28-2005, 06:22 PM
Ok, I am not going to start bashing OKC, but this has to be a joke. Dallas West End may not have been hopping when you are there, but most of the time it is. Downtown Dallas is HUGE compared to OKC and has many many more entertainment districts. If you didn't notice, The HUGE AA arena is near downtown and there is currently over 1 billion dollars being invested in that area, including a 5-star hotel/condominium high-rise. The arts in Dallas are also exploding. An article in an Arch. Record a few months ago had a couple of pages just on the arts in Dallas. The Dallas Opera is building a 400 million venue at the moment along with several other major projects. Also, you forgot the FW to go along with the D. Fort Worth is in the process of a major waterfront overhaul. The Museum of Modern Art in FW is one of the best in the nation. OKC doesn't have a suburb to compete with this. As far as city beautification...sure, some parts of Dallas, the older parts, aren't as beutiful, but the rest of Dallas, is very well taken care of. Dallas doesn't have to do a ton of landscaping because all the standards for all the businesses takes care of it. Also, it may not have been noticeable yet, but Dallas, unlike OKC and Tulsa, weed sprays all of the grass they have to take care of, and keeps it nicely mowed.

Anyway, don't get me wrong, in no way do I think Dallas is a GREAT city, but OKC is not up to par with Dallas either. The two cities are a world apart. The good thing...I think OKC is moving faster toward getting better than Dallas is.

xrayman
03-28-2005, 06:30 PM
The days of the West End are over. Lower Greenville and Addison are much better for nightlife. "Dallas" north of LBJ is a city of its own. The growth of Denton and Collin counties is just nothing short of phenomenal. In fact, here's some stats that will blow you away and put the word "growth" in perspective....Collin County alone now has a population right around 500,000 people. Plano has grown from a tiny town of 3,500 or so in 1960 to a city of almost 225,000. Denton County is now around 450,000! Between the two - do the math - a million people without an "urban" center! "Dallas" proper is not the "Dallas" that is so well-loved by many. Though, the Dallas city center is quite impressive, in my opinion.
ON EDIT: In Collin County, Frisco alone has grown by about 450% since 1990. It is estimated that in recent years Frisco's population has been growing at an annual rate of 23.5 percent. That is growth. Then - look at the demographics. That's why "Dallas" is still attracting jobs and everything else that goes along with them. What we don't see in Oklahoma City.

Patrick
03-28-2005, 06:55 PM
Concerning the AA center, I have been there for a few games....in fact I went there for a Mav's game just a few months ago. While impressive on the outside, it actually doesn't look any different from the Ford Center on the inside. Many people complain about the seats at the Ford Center, but in my recent trips to the AA center, I really saw no difference in their seats. I will admit though....the Ford Center looks plae on the outside in comparison to the AA Center. AA center looks more massive on the outside.

About the West End in Dallas. Don't get me wrong, it's okay, but I've been there many many times now, and it's becoming more of a joke everytime I go. More chains! Less local attractions. It was busy Saturday night, but no more busy than Bricktown or even Brookside on a Saturday night.

When planning another weekend trip, I'd take Tulsa over Dallas any day of the week.

Actually I didn't visit FW, so my comments were on the Dallas area alone.

I agree that downtown Dallas is bigger, but again that doesn't necessarily make it nicer. I honestly didn't see a difference between downtown Dallas and any other typical downtown area. Same old same old as far as I was concerned.

I don't know what landscaping you're referring to in Dallas. Dallas looked like a sea of concrete to me. It's flat......looks a lot like the west side of OKC. Not pretty IMO. Tulsa's landscape and eastern OKC's landscape is much prettier.

When planning another weekend trip in the near future, I'd much rather visit Tulsa over Dallas any day of the week! Tulsa has way more class than Dallas. And by far, it's much cleaner and GREENER!

I'm sure Dallas is continuing to improve in many ways. I do applaud them for their development and continued expansion of their Arts district. But, creating an artsy feel in Dallas is going to take more than building opera houses. It's a complete attitude that creates that atmosphere. It's something Tulsa is actually quite blessed with.

I will agree with xrayman....I think the excitement in Dallas is in the many suburbs, not the city center itself. I was quite impressed with Frisco and Plano. Edmond or BA don't even begin to hold a candle to those cities.

I guess my point is that bigger doesn't always mean better. Personally, I wouldn't want to live in Dallas. It's too big for me. I don't think we should always frown upon population in OKC and Tulsa. There's something to being a classy smaller city.

Dallas is just your typical run of the mill large city.

Patrick
03-28-2005, 07:01 PM
I just thought I'd add....I guess it depends on what you compare Dallas to. I've been to Seattle, San Francisco, Sacramento, etc.....it's just really hard to compare Dallas, or even OKC for that matter to cities like those. I'm sure Hot Rod could elaborate.

mranderson
03-28-2005, 07:07 PM
I just thought I'd add....I guess it depends on what you compare Dallas to. I've been to Seattle, San Francisco, Sacramento, etc.....it's just really hard to compare Dallas, or even OKC for that matter to cities like those. I'm sure Hot Rod could elaborate.


Comparing Dallas with those cities is like comparing the Grand Ole Opry with the Metropolitan Opera. (Dallas is the Opry). Or like comparing Mad Dog 20-20 with Dom Parigon. Or like a hamburger patty with Prime Rib. (Dallas is the Mad Dog 20-20 and the hamburger patty)

HOT ROD
03-28-2005, 09:06 PM
ha ha ha ha, I have to laugh at those recent posts. But I think you guys are correct.

we are just blessed on the west coast. But, I think OKC compares favourably in many ways - but the biggest way, is its potential.

I just wish the rich people that live in OKC believed in OKC the way our wealthy people here believe in Seattle (and San Fran Bay Area). Here, they INVEST in our cities - so we have a wealth of "all the stuff you guys talk about." Granted we have our problems, It IS pretty tough to beat the West Coast Cities - Vancouver BC, Seattle, San Fran Bay Area, LA.

Portland is very nice as well, but it is not quite the same level. More like OKC in comparison to Dallas or Houston. Great city with great amenities but not quite there yet, but on the verge - so look out.

Like I said, OKC has potential - always has, I ALWAYS KNEW THAT, but it takes strong leadership who will stand up and get jobs, get an airport, get people moving in, and get something(s) for them all to do once they get there - that is what makes a great city; and that's what we have on the west coast!

Nevertheless,,,

Continue the Renaissance Oklahoma City

and

Thanks Patrick for setting the record straight about Dallas. I could not agree with you more!! :)

HOT ROD
03-28-2005, 09:27 PM
One more thing about the west coast, WE DONT FIGHT WITH EACH OTHER!!!

We know that LA is the mecca for everything, San Fran is the business/finance hub, Seattle is the high-tech hub, and Vancouver is the International Paradise! But you know what, instead of putting each other down, what we do is send tourists.

Every day, you see Vancouver ads in Seattle newspapers, and in Vancouver you see Seattle and San Fran ads. In San Fran, EVERYBODY knows about Vancouver - A city JUST LIKE SAN FRAN - often called the San Fran of Canada, that did everything right!

We know that Seattle has more domestic traffic than Vancouver but Vancouver has more International flights and traffic than Seattle. You know what, Seattle sends pax to Vancouver for International flights as there is way more selection up there AND Vancouver sends pax to Seattle for US domestic. Why do you think Seattle had 28 million passengers last year? We are NOT a major hub, and we have few international flights (as Vancouver, San Fran, and LA have them). Seattle gets spin-off traffic, it truly is a regional airport! And like I said, we dont fight with Vancouver, we share with them.

If ONLY OKC AND TULSA could listen to this!!!! boy - Oklahoma could take over the south central US. Maybe one airport focus on International and the other on Domestic and share pax with shuttle flights/bus like we do.

Downtown Vancouver is AMAZING!!! Just like Manhattan, with residential towers all over the place, a true 24 hour downtown. Well, did Seattle and San Fran try to put them down, NO - we do the same. Now, both Seattle and San Fran have a pretty respectable (although not quite Vancouver like yet) hoppin' downtown full of retail and housing - following Vancouver's lead. What is the result, well - tourists like Patrick who came to San Fran or Seattle after 1998 saw downtowns that were pretty hoppin'! And that left an impression on him.

What Im trying to say is, cities should learn from each other. You dont gain anything talking about population or anything. Vancouver used to be smaller than Seattle, but now - Vancouver is the big kid up here. Still, Seattle has more high tech but we say, who cares - we are the WEST COAST! You almost can not visit Seattle, Portland, or Vancouver without visiting EACH city. San Fran would be included but it is too far for most (except international, they OFTEN DO THE VANCOUVER-Seattle-San Fran agendas). Look at that, all three cities get tourist dollars! All three cities have something similar but unique to offer. All three cities benefit and grow!

If only OKC and Tulsa could look (and follow) OUR lead!!!

Sooner&RiceGrad
03-28-2005, 09:28 PM
http://www.ovillachurchofchrist.com/derek/collection/12110402s.jpg

Sorry for the pic width. That is Uptown Dallas. Not so bad I think.

HOT ROD
03-28-2005, 09:30 PM
FLAT ----- wow!!!

Sooner&RiceGrad
03-28-2005, 09:31 PM
... and this is an OKC forum. Ha! LOL!

HOT ROD
03-28-2005, 09:32 PM
... and this is an OKC forum. Ha! LOL!

:)

Sooner&RiceGrad
03-28-2005, 09:36 PM
Actually, I revert. The area N. of downtown is actually quite hilly. Up through Midtown, over to OCU.

xrayman
03-28-2005, 09:43 PM
Hot Rod,

I love your enthusiasm! But, as much as I love the beauty of San Francisco, it is a city in deep, deep decline. If Oklahoma City were to deteriorate like San Francisco - I'd leave. It is run by a bunch of lefty whack jobs and once they actually gained power - they ruined it. The dot com bust didn't help, but San Francisco has declined into an urban hellhole. Downtown, North Beach, the Wharf area, it's all still beautiful. But, the "homeless" have caused a HUGE black-eye for San Francisco. Not to mention municipal corruption and now the pretty boy mayor who has taken up the causes that the Bay Area loves - but makes even L.A. look like a rightwing stronghold.

Seattle, beautiful but filling up fast with "progressives" that eventually ruin a city with their politics that no city can afford.

OKC, Tulsa, Dallas-Fort Worth... while not as "urban" or "cooly progressive" as San Francisco or Seattle or Vancouver, have people that think more like me -- and that's worth everything.

I'm glad you are enjoying Seattle though and find it surprising you give a flip what's going on back here in Oklahoma. Seattle could use your enthusiasm to help better your new city.

HOT ROD
03-28-2005, 10:14 PM
I do agree with you about San Fran, as it is an old big city that - as you say - ran into decline with a few leftish decisions. BUT San Fran is picking itself up, as they realize their decline has dropped them from #2 city in Cali, to #3, and most recent ------ #4 (after San Jose, San FRAN's Suburb is bigger than San Fran!!!). But SF is doing things differently, and they are really trying to Vancouverize their city. There have been articles in newspapers about this and I could tell when I went to visit a year ago that they are picking themselves up.

Nonetheless, no matter how low SF has dropped, SF is STILL the envy of the US. San Fran IS the most liveable city in the US continental system (I think Honolulu beats it in US overall). SF beats Seattle because of the wealth of world class amenities that Seattle just does not have. Seattle has beauty but San Fran is the big city.

Guess which city is always rated the best in NA? ---- Vancouver.

They have done almost everything right. They have a very nice metro system (with a downtown subway) which they are expanding, they have a 24 hour downtown full of all the retail you could imagine, nightclubs and bars, offices and towers, and towering mountains and pacific ocean right downtown!!! everything you could want in a city. In fact - Downtown Vancouver has FOUR 5-Star hotels!!! Name a city that has that.

So, it is easy to see why cities like Vancouver.

Seattle differs in that we have thinkers. Yes, there is more high tech and people in San Fran and YES there is more to do in Vancouver - but Seattle has a great combination of BOTH. That is why I live here. If I had my choice, I would probably live in Vancouver - but the only drawback I have against Van City is IT IS IN CANADA. Its cost of living simply does not make me feel great when I would have to take a pay cut (given the value of the Canadian dollar).

so, Seattle is the place for me. Hey, Vancouver is only 100 miles north of here, so I go up there all the time for my big city fix (and so does everyone else here). But in Seattle, its kind-of like a village mentality in that most people think like me. So I really dont have to post on Seattle forums. I feel I could assist my hometown, Oklahoma City; as certainly your forums are much more interesting from an urban development perspective.

Dont get me wrong, you have seen me enthusiastic about OKC and Vancouver and San Fran, but I am also very happy about Seattle and is why I call it home. We are a nice mid-Big city where you can grow up and learn in a great business environment that does not have life-or-death riding on your decisions (like the case in Chicago and NY). Plus, there is plenty of beauty here and lots to do.

My main complaint about Seattle is - our lack of planning. You guys may not know this (and Im sure you will laugh your -ss off), but Seattle only has two interstate freeways. Our suburbs only have one. You may not realize the impact of this, BUT because Seattle is laid out N-S (Metro wise for about 100 miles or so) and because most of our jobs lie in the centre of the metro area, TRAFFIC on our freeways is a nightmare!!!

Oh, and we have no mass transit system (aside from a great bus network which gets stuck in traffic as well). So, this is the complaint shared by most that live here. Our lack of urban planning is what makes me sick, BUT there really is nothing that can be done about it. We just simply overgrew!! We can only hope that people start leaving, as to fix things right will cost tooo dogon much $$.

We are building a light rail (finally!) but, it really is not going to help anything. Its pretty much going to be in the city of Seattle, which is great for 560k residents of Seattle (but bad for the other 3 million people in the metro). Tacoma has a light rail already but it is only in downtown Tacoma. What about, send it to major suburban population centres into downtown Seattle, downtown Tacoma, and downtown Bellevue (Seattle's Eastside suburb) - thats where people are going every rush hour but no, they are building a 4 billion dollar light rail and a 2 billion dollar monorail expansion for the city of Seattle ONLY.

So needless to say, people here are a bit pissed about this but really theres nothing that can be done. Seattle needs mass transit, plain and simple. Too bad the planners did not think about the sprawl that has occurred N-S. E and W we have mountains and ocean inlet, so no sprawl there. but going from N to S is over 100 miles.

Imagine, going from OKC to Tulsa without leaving urban/suburban landscapes? Now Imagine doing that on one four lane (one HOV lane/Express lanes at spots) freeway! Thats Metro Seattle-Tacoma! And that is my complaint.

Patrick
03-28-2005, 10:20 PM
... and this is an OKC forum. Ha! LOL!

Hey Sooner&RiceGrad, why don't you zoom in on that Dallas pic a little more sowe can see all of the trash lining the interstates! :)

Sooner&RiceGrad
03-28-2005, 10:59 PM
Think S. of downtown Dallas. Like Oak Cliff. Methroplex, baby.

hailmary57yd
03-28-2005, 11:43 PM
i think that Dallas good place to chill out sometimes and it is bigger than OKC Area. allas has more club, pro sports team and more places to visit.

But I like Chicago more. I like Chicago airport and I think that its pretty big and nice airport.

I don't think that Dallas is better than Chicago. it has high crime rate, lots of strip clubs and porno stores. Compare to Chicago, Dallas' buildings are short and people are not that kind to me.

I've lived near Dallas but I think that OKC is better to live. I think that Dallas does not have a good schools compare to Oklahoma. That was one of reasons why I moved to Oklahoma.

Nuclear_2525
03-28-2005, 11:58 PM
That midtown picture of Dallas may be flat, but I saw a BIG difference between midtown Dallas and Midtown OKC. While both OKC and Dallas midtowns are flat as far as landscape, Dallas's skyline is impressive...OKC's midtown skyline??? FLAT.

okcpulse
03-29-2005, 12:12 AM
Nulcear2525, you're comparing Dallas, 1.2 million, to Oklahoma City, 534,000. Who's going to have more office development?

Patrick's opinion, I frankly I think I speak for all of us, is that even though Dallas, with it's burgeoning metroplex at over 5 million, has endless amenities to offer, makes us appreciate home a little more. I've gone to Texas many times. It's fun to shop there, eat there (not fun to drive), but Dallas is not home. And Nuclear, drive around Dallas, really, and see what we see. The eyesores don't make the city look great. Expectations will run high for a major metropolitan area.

Some of those buildings in midtown Dallas are beginning to see their age. One particular office building along I-35E has been vacated, and has obviously been vandalized and sprayed with graffiti.

hailmary57yd
03-29-2005, 12:25 AM
I think that an opportunity cost is always existed. If you live in Dallas/Fortworth Area, you may have more chance to experience clubs, pro sports and big city life. In the contrast, you also may experience more crimes,high traffic, and expensive living cost.

If you live in OKC Area, there are not many bars, clubs, and pro sports. You can have less crime, and good education.

You need to give up one of what you want to.

I think that living in Chicago, or LA can be satisfy both of them except expensive living cost.
Chicago and LA's apartment rent prices, and living cost are not like OKC and DFW areas'.

Nuclear_2525
03-29-2005, 06:10 AM
Nulcear2525, you're comparing Dallas, 1.2 million, to Oklahoma City, 534,000. Who's going to have more office development?

Patrick's opinion, I frankly I think I speak for all of us, is that even though Dallas, with it's burgeoning metroplex at over 5 million, has endless amenities to offer, makes us appreciate home a little more. I've gone to Texas many times. It's fun to shop there, eat there (not fun to drive), but Dallas is not home. And Nuclear, drive around Dallas, really, and see what we see. The eyesores don't make the city look great. Expectations will run high for a major metropolitan area.

Some of those buildings in midtown Dallas are beginning to see their age. One particular office building along I-35E has been vacated, and has obviously been vandalized and sprayed with graffiti.


I think you're missing my point. Take a look at that picture again, comparing it to OKC. From what you said, Dallas city has a little over twice what OKC city has as far as population. Does OKC have anywhere close to have of the number of high-rises as Dallas? in Midtown or Downtown?

And yes I have seen the eyesores of Dallas and the deteriorating buildings with Graffiti. OKC has plenty of that too.

Again, I am not saying I like Dallas, because I don't think it is anything special. But what I am saying, is again, like with Tulsa, instead of bashing Dallas everytime we get the chance, I think we can learn some things from them. There is obviously something very attracting about the Dallas area, or 5 million plus people wouldn't chose to live there, and it wouldn't be constantly booming like it is.

Karried
03-29-2005, 07:01 AM
I think what is attracting people to Dallas are jobs and cheaper housing.

Hotrod, if you think Seattle traffic is bad, try sitting in the SF Bay Area traffic. It is horrific- hours of creeping along at 10 miles per hour. The homes there are so crammed together you can't sneeze without waking a neighbor. Hope you like sirens, barking dogs and loud music in the middle of the night, every night. SF is pretty and the ocean is nice (if you like freezing cold water with undertows that people drown in constantly) but it is nice to look at when the fog isn't covering the coast ( which is often - it is on the coast!) Most people think CA is so wonderful - until they try to live there. It's not the carefree beach image that most people think of ... it's not an ideal place to raise children unless you are extremely wealthy. The schools are really bad.

I lived there my entire life and yes I do miss the higher wages and the equity increase of my previous home and the way people are open minded and accepting of diversity, but I don't miss the traffic, horrible schools, conjestion, lines, smog, gangs or earthquakes.

Point being, every city has positives and negatives. I didn't like Dallas at all or Houston - dirty, scary places with tons of freeways, traffic and rude drivers. ( High rises just don't impress me)

But, I liked Galveston and South Padre because I do love the ocean (a warm tropical ocean).

So everyone has their preferences, it makes the world go round.

Patrick
03-29-2005, 09:04 AM
Hey guys, I didn't intend for this to be a Dallas bashing thread. I just merely wanted to stated my observations from my recent trip over the weekend.

Personally, I've never really liked Dallas. I just don't think there's any character to it. Concrete, concrete, and more concrete, as far as I'm concerned.

I do think OKC needs to learn from Dallas. Instead of focusing on building bigger and better, I think we need to focus on building a nicer first class town. Before we even consider building something as ambitious as a NFL stadium or something like that, I think we need to focus on beautifying our city by funding more streetscape projects, landscaping around town, breautifying our interstates and entryways, planting large trees, improving our parks, cleaning litter and enforcing anti-litter laws, etc. I think what sets cities like Tulsa apart from cities like Dallas is the pride that they have in the upscale artsy image they show. Dallas may indeed be trying to improve its arts district, but the trash and lack of culture really restrict their cause!

okcpulse
03-29-2005, 11:42 AM
Actually, no one on here is bashing Dallas. Who on this forum has bashed Dallas, except for mranderson, but he has room to do so because he lived there, and obviously did not have a good experience. I would do the same.

I think all of us take lessons from Dallas. Nuclear2525 had some good points, and I understand where he is coming from, but this is not a Dallas bashing thread. It was a thread to reflect on simple observations of a big city, what disappointed Patrick, and what impressed him.

Is Dallas flat in natural scenery? Yes. It's not bashing, but a geographical fact pointed out. Rundown buildings in OKC are not the point. Discussing rundown areas of Dallas and observing what Dallas plans to do about blight is not bashing. It's a lesson worth learning to see how a big city takes action. So let's learn from other cities, as others have learned from us with MAPS.

HOT ROD
03-29-2005, 12:57 PM
I think what is attracting people to Dallas are jobs and cheaper housing.

Hotrod, if you think Seattle traffic is bad, try sitting in the SF Bay Area traffic. It is horrific- hours of creeping along at 10 miles per hour. The homes there are so crammed together you can't sneeze without waking a neighbor. Hope you like sirens, barking dogs and loud music in the middle of the night, every night. SF is pretty and the ocean is nice (if you like freezing cold water with undertows that people drown in constantly) but it is nice to look at when the fog isn't covering the coast ( which is often - it is on the coast!) Most people think CA is so wonderful - until they try to live there. It's not the carefree beach image that most people think of ... it's not an ideal place to raise children unless you are extremely wealthy. The schools are really bad.

I lived there my entire life and yes I do miss the higher wages and the equity increase of my previous home and the way people are open minded and accepting of diversity, but I don't miss the traffic, horrible schools, conjestion, lines, smog, gangs or earthquakes.

Point being, every city has positives and negatives. I didn't like Dallas at all or Houston - dirty, scary places with tons of freeways, traffic and rude drivers. ( High rises just don't impress me)

But, I liked Galveston and South Padre because I do love the ocean (a warm tropical ocean).

So everyone has their preferences, it makes the world go round.


Karried, I know what you mean about bay area traffic, it seems the whole west coast has a traffic problem.

BUT

The bay area has more transit options than we do in Seattle. Not to mention, freeway options. And the bay area is almost three times the population of Puget Sound's 3.5 M. So traffic there is expected! Traffic here, well it should not be but it really really is!

And unlike Bay area, we have NO CHOICE but to sit in it!

mranderson
03-29-2005, 01:31 PM
Karried, I know what you mean about bay area traffic, it seems the whole west coast has a traffic problem.

BUT

The bay area has more transit options than we do in Seattle. Not to mention, freeway options. And the bay area is almost three times the population of Puget Sound's 3.5 M. So traffic there is expected! Traffic here, well it should not be but it really really is!

And unlike Bay area, we have NO CHOICE but to sit in it!

Traffic problems are a state of mind. I have yet to encounter a stereotype traffice problem anywhere in California.

Karried
03-29-2005, 02:47 PM
"Traffic problems are a state of mind. I have yet to encounter a stereotype traffice problem anywhere in California."

State of mind? It is much different when you are a visiting tourist . Chances are you aren't on 101 or 280/680 in commuter traffic hours every day while visiting.

Sitting in traffic for hours gets old when you do it twice daily. It takes away so much valuable time from your family and friends.

I'm not sure what stereotypes you are referring to, but the West Coast does have serious traffic problems. Anyone living and actually commuting there knows this very well. And it is only getting worse. We're talking Silicon Valley here!

I sat in commuter traffic for years on Highway 101 - bumper to bumper - almost never approaching the speed limit from the hours between 5-9am - and then from 2:30 -6:30pm crawling home.

My husband commuted to Fremont 45 miles and it took an hour and a half each way - sometimes two hours each way... he commuted for 16 years.

We were both in San Francisco the day of the earthquake and my husband drove over the bridge that collapsed that day... I've sat in traffic repeatedly trying to catch a plane, panicked because traffic was at a stand still (again), for hours I've sat in line after line coming to and from concerts at Shoreline - Palo Alto.

Been to Disneyland more times than I can count, traffic jams everywhere - San Diego, crawls along at a snail's pace for hours. Tahoe - coming home from skiing? With the rest of the Bay Area?
Try getting to a mall - it takes forever to get through all of the traffic lights and then try to park! It's a nightmare! And this is all without accidents and broken down vehicles - you should really see it then.

Trust me, I am very familiar with California traffic - I lived there 40 years.

xrayman
03-29-2005, 05:11 PM
Karrie couldn't be more right. I have reason to be in SoCal three or four times a year and I am always glad to leave. I don't know where you've been, MRAnderson, (or at what times) but try I-5 through Los Angeles, 405, 210 in L.A.... And if that doesn't convince you it's not a "state of mind," try I-15 coming down from Poway, Carmel Valley into San Diego around 7:45 AM. If that's a state of mind - that explains the deteriorating state of mine.

mranderson
03-29-2005, 05:15 PM
Karrie couldn't be more right. I have reason to be in SoCal three or four times a year and I am always glad to leave. I don't know where you've been, MRAnderson, (or at what times) but try I-5 through Los Angeles, 405, 210 in L.A.... And if that doesn't convince you it's not a "state of mind," try I-15 coming down from Poway, Carmel Valley into San Diego around 7:45 AM. If that's a state of mind - that explains the deteriorating state of mine.

I have done all of them. And various times of day and night. I have had NO major problems with LA traffic. Nor the Bay Area. I have more problems with the boneheads in Oklahoma City who are scared to drive.

Traffic is also attitude. It is what you make it.

Karried
03-29-2005, 05:29 PM
Yeah, you are right about the drivers in OK who can't merge (well I've seen them everywhere), what is up with that?

Have you ever been behind someone who stops on the on- ramp? It is awful trying to floor it to merge 0-65 in two seconds! :fighting2

Yeah, I guess if you have to commute for years - attitude is important, we tried to make the best of it and listen to tapes etc but it was still hard to be away from your family so many hours a day because of sitting in traffic.

Everywhere has problems - we just have to try to work with what we have. :Smiley199

Midtowner
03-29-2005, 06:28 PM
I have done all of them. And various times of day and night. I have had NO major problems with LA traffic. Nor the Bay Area. I have more problems with the boneheads in Oklahoma City who are scared to drive.

Traffic is also attitude. It is what you make it.

Check this around Rush Hour. I played around with it for awhile today (around 5:30PST) and there's no comparison.

HOT ROD
03-30-2005, 12:04 AM
I saw this about the nation's top 25 cities:

http://hotel-online.com/News/PR2005_1st/Feb05_HabitsTracked.html

Top 25 Cities for General Business Travelers

1. Chicago
2. Los Angeles-Long Beach
3. Washington, DC (metro area)
4. New York
5. Atlanta
6. Houston
7. Boston (metro area)
8. Minneapolis-St. Paul
9. Dallas
10. Detroit
11. Denver
12. Phoenix-Mesa
13. St Louis, MO
14. Philadelphia
15. Seattle (metro area)
16. New Orleans
17. Tampa-St Petersburg-Clearwater, FL
18. Nashville, TN
19. Orlando
20. Las Vegas
21. Austin-San Marcos, TX
22. San Diego
23. San Francisco
24. Riverside-San Bernardino, CA
25. San Antonio, TX
.
Top 25 Cities for Convention / Conference/Seminar Travelers

1. Chicago
2. Las Vegas
3. Washington, DC (metro area)
4. Orlando
5. Atlanta
6. Dallas
7. San Francisco
8. Nashville
9. San Diego
10. New Orleans
11. Denver
12. San Antonio
13. Phoenix-Mesa
14. Los Angeles-Long Beach
15. Boston (metro area)
16. Philadelphia
17. Tampa-St Petersburg-Clearwater, FL
18. Austin-San Marcos, TX
19. New York
20. Seattle (metro area)
21. Detroit
22. St Louis, MO
23. Riverside-San Bernardino, CA
24. Minneapolis-St Paul
25. Houston

Notice that Chicago is #1 on both lists. WOW!! This country would not survive without Chicago. I knew the city controlled this nation, but I did not realize how much. Chicago is the number 1 business destination AND the number 1 convention/seminar destination!

No wonder its Train Station is number 1, it has two top 10 airports (and Ohare is still number 1 in airplane movements), it has the busiest bus terminal, and on and on. ...

Goodness, we think of New York as the power centre when in fact - Chicago quietly controls America's economy. I knew Chicago was number 1 for corporate headquarters but wow, I had no idea it was number 1 for conventions.

I only wish OKC could move into this crowd. Denver is 11 on both lists, pretty respectable. I think OKC could steal some convention business soon and join on that list. Maybe in 10 years, we could make the Top 30 business.

I just am amazed again about the impact of Chicago on this nation. All I can say is wow! No wonder Boeing moved its hq to Chicago. Im surprised the oil companies have been moving to Houston and not Chicago. Everything else is there.

someone on here said they love Chicago. I do have to say, it is my favourite mega-big city! Just the sheer impact on the country is absolutely AMAZING!!!

rxis
03-30-2005, 12:07 AM
I've actually had better driving experiences in Dallas than in OKC when it comes to rude drivers. I like the flow of traffic more in Texas when there isn't backed up traffic.
Dallas reminds me of a much larger OKC.

mranderson
03-30-2005, 04:33 AM
Check this around Rush Hour. I played around with it for awhile today (around 5:30PST) and there's no comparison.

One thing to remember. I have been there. I am the one who sees things out of MY eyes. The traffic is not as bad as many claim. I have had NO problems.

soonerguru
03-30-2005, 06:54 AM
Give the politics a rest. Oklahoma City could stand to have a few more of these "leftish" views you talk about. Most of the progressive thinking, educated, gainfully employed people I know leave OKC at the first opportunity because they cannot stand the stifling, narrow-minded thinking that accompanies the right wing philosophy.

San Fran has always been a progressive, left-leaning city. Look it up. There has never been a "right wing" in San Franscisco. One of the reasons it is so successful is it is a paragon of progressive thinking. Get over your politics, and study a little history while you're at it.

Midtowner
03-30-2005, 07:07 AM
One thing to remember. I have been there. I am the one who sees things out of MY eyes. The traffic is not as bad as many claim. I have had NO problems.

My apologies for offending your all-seeing, all-knowing wisdom. You have been to LA a few times, and so have I. I guess these daily traffic reports that show horrible traffic in L.A. have nothing on Anderson and his all-seeing eye. Just take a look,
:LolLolLol

Also, take a look at this list of annual hours that individuals lose by being delayed in traffic. Please note that L.A. is 40 full minutes ahead of the next city -- it's #1 in the U.S. for delays caused by traffic congestion. But heck, what do the Texas Transportation Institute, the Texas A&M University System know about traffic congestion compared to someone who has been to the city a few times and seen things with eyes.

http://www.infoplease.com/ipa/A0855647.html

ETA:
Disclaimer: Anderson, the above is not an attack on you. It's an attack on your methodology and your claims, which some pretty incontravertible data shows are dead wrong. It may be true that your traffic experience in L.A. was fine. That does not, however, translate into reality for the rest of the world. It's about as unscientific a method of examining things as is available. Here's scientific research that shows you are wrong if you were trying to say that L.A. doesn't have bad traffic. Let's accept that and move on.

xrayman
03-30-2005, 12:50 PM
Give the politics a rest. Oklahoma City could stand to have a few more of these "leftish" views you talk about. Most of the progressive thinking, educated, gainfully employed people I know leave OKC at the first opportunity because they cannot stand the stifling, narrow-minded thinking that accompanies the right wing philosophy.

San Fran has always been a progressive, left-leaning city. Look it up. There has never been a "right wing" in San Francisco. One of the reasons it is so successful is it is a paragon of progressive thinking. Get over your politics, and study a little history while you're at it.

Whoa Nellie!!

Study a little history? I understand the Bay Area history very well. It's always been a leftist enclave and anybody that pays a lick of attention to politics and government knows this. I didn't know I gave you any other impression. If you think OKC has a lot to learn politically - from San Francisco - we are on different planets, my friend.

Just as "progressives" leave OKC due to the right's influence here - there are thinking people who leave these left wing bastions looking for common sense all the time.

Soonerguru, you say, "give the politics a rest".... politics plays a huge role in just about everything. That you and I don't think alike is just fine. The insults, though, as far as "learn some history while you're at it," can be left out.

soonerguru
03-30-2005, 02:56 PM
Perhaps you're right and there are all of these sensible people fleeing liberal cities like San Francisco, Austin, Chicago, New York, DC, and Miami for Oklahoma City, but no actual statistics bear this out.

Perhaps there's something to the fact that these so-called "progressive cities" are growing a lot faster than, say, Omaha, Oklahoma City, Wichita and Fort Worth.

What is it all of these cities have in common? Well, they're a lot more politically liberal -- or even moderate -- than our cities. They are creative nerve centers where creative people migrate.

People move there for a lot of reasons, employment among them, but people want to live where they feel free to be themselves.

In OKC, to be in the heart of things, you best join the GOP, get a membership at a Southern Baptist church, and join the country club. That's where things happen.

If you're not in the club, good luck with all your future endeavors.

As a conservative, can you see the value of Oklahoma City becoming an attractive place to live for people of all ideologies, viewpoints and backgrounds, or would you rather it stay the way it is right now?

Midtowner
03-30-2005, 03:06 PM
I'll take choice "B".

Although, I'd prefer libertarians to liberals if at all possible. Liberals bring just as much baggage as the country club-esque Conservatives. Also, I'd join a country club if I were rich. It's like a fraternity house for adults :D

Alas, I don't play golf.

If we could only get the LP to stop marketing themselves so horribly, they might have a shot...

Frederick Lawton
03-30-2005, 03:38 PM
Also, you forgot the FW to go along with the D. Fort Worth is in the process of a major waterfront overhaul. The Museum of Modern Art in FW is one of the best in the nation. OKC doesn't have a suburb to compete with this.

Oh, now you've done it! You're going to have every blogger in Fort Worth logging on here to whip you about the fact that Fort Worth is not a suburb of Dallas. ;)


Edit> Of course, now I see I have thrown a fork in the thread since I replied to something on page one instead of reading all the replies. But then again, looks like the thread has already gotten off track a few times.

vcross
03-31-2005, 12:52 PM
I live in Dallas and it is interesting to read OKC views on our city. I love living here and that's after traveling extensively to other large U.S. cities and around the world. No place is perfect. You take the good with the bad and Dallas has a whole lot of good to offer me.

Dallas must not be all that bad anyway: The metro population just passed 6 million in January 2005 with about 150,000 people moving here annually even during the recent recession. (I've seen a 5 million figure mentioned in other posts. That's a couple years old.)

I just found out about this forum on < forum dahht dallasmetropolis dahht com>. (Couldn't put in the URL or spell out dot without it prohibiting my message!)

I look forward to learning more about OKC... I lurk in the Houston forum and also read about Atlanta and Charlotte quite a bit. It's interesting to see that many of the same issues face ALL these cities.

BADallas
03-31-2005, 01:11 PM
forum dallasmetropolis (I can't post a URL....you get the idea).

I grew up in OKC and have lived in Dallas for a few years. I thought that you would find the link above interesting. I'm not trying to start a feud but there is a thread under the City Issues folder that addresses the trip report.

Patrick
03-31-2005, 01:43 PM
Hey guys, first I welcome you to OKC Talk! Oh, we weren't trying to bash Dallas or anything. Just making some observations. There are many great things about Dallas too, especially your burbs, shopping areas, excellent commuter rail system, and sports teams.

Hey, we'd love to hear comments on Dallas. I'm sure they'd help us out asd we continue to try to improve our city. Feel free to give us an update on what's gonig on in Dallas, especially in terms of downtown housing, DART, and the West End!

Thanks for the links to the sites.

By the way.....sorry for being unable to post links...we've just required a user to make 10 posts before he/she can post a link to prevent spammers from posting! Thanks for understanding.

okcpulse
03-31-2005, 01:48 PM
Just visited the link, Patrick. The Dallas posters had some interesting and understanding things to say!

Karried
03-31-2005, 02:23 PM
I checked it out too... they seem like nice enough people on that board except for a few expected standard Okie comments.

:surrender

I really believe the benefits of comparing cities it to try to hear other ideas on things that need to be improved upon and how it affects our own city, without being offended and taking it personally. I don't think anyone mentioned that the people of Dallas were not good people - just observations of things that we might do differently here to prevent the negative side effects of a big city.

We're all just trying to improve upon OKC and our image. When we talk about other cities it's to determine what we can do differently in our growing stages. We're not trying to be mean spirited.

The only first hand knowledge I have of Dallas (and this is with any large city) is seeing the homeless people, litter on the roads and lots of freeways and traffic. But that was inner city (?) near the Galleria Mall -

I imagine that the suburbs are just like OK are nice places to raise families and live. I think what puts most visitors off of larger cities is the congestion on the many freeways and the lack of greenery. That is why people move out of large cities into the suburbs. I could say the above about any larger city in the nation.

Patrick
03-31-2005, 03:06 PM
Just visited the link, Patrick. The Dallas posters had some interesting and understanding things to say!

I also visited and posted my 2 cents. I'm glad that soem of them have looked at it as a learning experience. That's how I view Tulsa attacks on our city. For those that may want to view it: http://forum.dallasmetropolis.com/

Patrick
03-31-2005, 03:11 PM
I checked it out too... they seem like nice enough people on that board except for a few expected standard Okie comments.

:surrender

I really believe the benefits of comparing cities it to try to hear other ideas on things that need to be improved upon and how it affects our own city, without being offended and taking it personally. I don't think anyone mentioned that the people of Dallas were not good people - just observations of things that we might do differently here to prevent the negative side effects of a big city.

We're all just trying to improve upon OKC and our image. When we talk about other cities it's to determine what we can do differently in our growing stages. We're not trying to be mean spirited.

The only first hand knowledge I have of Dallas (and this is with any large city) is seeing the homeless people, litter on the roads and lots of freeways and traffic. But that was inner city (?) near the Galleria Mall -

I imagine that the suburbs are just like OK are nice places to raise families and live. I think what puts most visitors off of larger cities is the congestion on the many freeways and the lack of greenery. That is why people move out of large cities into the suburbs. I could say the above about any larger city in the nation.

Very true Karrie. In fact, I think Dallas' problems resemble our own, with traffic as the main exception. Beautification is the area we need to work on most. Establishing more upscale districts like Western Avenue would be helpful as well.

I have nothing personal against Dallas. In fact, it's a great place to shop and spend a weekend. But, each time I visit a place like Dallas, I always come back with ideas for our city. Comparing our city to other cities lets us know where we're at as a city.

I agree that Bricktown is nowhere close to being completed, but we're a lot further now than we used to be.

Comparing OKC to Dallas is also a little like comparing Buffalo to NYC, but we can still take the weigh the positives and the negatives about Dallas and use them to our advantage. Right now, I think we really need to focus on keeping our streets clean! Tulsa actually has the advantage there!

Dallas West End is blessed with shopping, which we need trememndously in our Bricktown area. But by the same token I don't want to rush development and end up with a lot of chain stores and restaurants!

renffahcs
03-31-2005, 03:44 PM
Patrick, I am glad to see you and some of the OKCTalk folks join the Dallas Forum. I think it would be a good thing to have ties between the two cities with discussions about both. As seen on both forums there are many people who have lived and have ties to both places. If interested there is also a specific Fort Worth Forum as well. Might be nice to get specific info on whats going on on the other side of DFW. http://www.fortwortharchitecture.com/forum/index.php

Patrick
03-31-2005, 10:03 PM
Patrick, I am glad to see you and some of the OKCTalk folks join the Dallas Forum. I think it would be a good thing to have ties between the two cities with discussions about both. As seen on both forums there are many people who have lived and have ties to both places. If interested there is also a specific Fort Worth Forum as well. Might be nice to get specific info on whats going on on the other side of DFW. http://www.fortwortharchitecture.com/forum/index.php

Wow, thanks for the information. I'll definitely check out both forums. Since I struggle budgeting time for this forum, I may just be a reader on the others for awhile, like I am with Tulsanow.

I think we can learn from each other. Obviously Dallas has a lot more to offer than OKC, but OKC offers a small city feel that Dallas really can't provide. I think both cities have their place. I'm sure if I grew up in Dallas, I'd probably think OKC was too small! lol! Anyways, I think we can exchange ideas and have a positive influence on each other. Truth is, both of our cities need work! Always have, always will! It's just you guys are a little further along than we are, and I suppose OKC is a little further along than Tulsa!

renffahcs
03-31-2005, 10:31 PM
I don't know a city anywhere that doesn't need much work. I tend to be like you and lean towards more mid-size to smaller cities although it is nice to have a Dallas closeby to catch a football, basketball, etc.

hailmary57yd
03-31-2005, 11:57 PM
Dallas is ranked no1 city for crime rate. I heard that one high school studnet shoot other people during party yesterday. he blew out other party people, because they asked him leave party. he was not invited and he blew out the party with his gun. It's really dangerous city. Dallas is kind of large and big city. However, its buildings are shorter compare to Midwest cities.

I-35 South is kind of dangerous road and people drive cars dangerously. Many accidents are occured on the road.

renffahcs
04-01-2005, 08:56 AM
This unfortunately is true and is a huge black eye for the city. Seems like there is a murder in Dallas every few days. This is the most serious problem that needs to be tackled. Among cities over 1mil in pop. Dallas is worst by far. This includes Houston, SANAN, NYC, Chicago, Philly, etc.

Curt
04-01-2005, 09:25 AM
Patrick, are you sure you were not in Detroit? you described it to a tee. Ugly, crowded, dirty, but I bet Dallas does not have potholes big enough to swallow an Excursion. I would like to see Dallas myself. I have a freind that lives in Houston and HATES it, so I would not even think of living there. I have never been to L.A, and dont even want to go.

JOHNINSOKC
04-01-2005, 01:18 PM
I have family that lives in Tarrant County in the city of Bedford. I haven't really been in the area during a weekday, but I really think it is night and day in terms of traffic between Dallas and Fort Worth. I think OKC and Fort Worth are more alike in a lot of aspects. They are similar in population. If you take away Arlington from the FW MSA, The metro population is nearly the same. Arlington is basically a city by itself with over 300,000.

Sooner&RiceGrad
04-01-2005, 02:48 PM
^
^ Oh, sounds like another Dallas v.s. Houston flame war.

Midtowner
04-01-2005, 02:51 PM
^
^ Oh, sounds like another Dallas v.s. Houston flame war.

I do not detect this. Please explain.

Sooner&RiceGrad
04-01-2005, 02:56 PM
I have a freind that lives in Houston and HATES it, so I would not even think of living there.

It is not a "war" but this friend is obviously caught up in the infamous Dallas v.s. Houston flame war, which is x10 that of the Texas v.s. Oklahoma flame wars that have reared their ugly heads on other forums.

:053: I've seen many wars.