I'm suprised this hasn't had any comments considering all of the handringing (especially by the firefighters and police) which took place when jobs were being cut back.


http://newsok.com/oklahoma-city-council-approves-budget-restores-103-jobs/article/3577082?custom_click=lead_story_title

I thought that happened a couple of weeks back. Now I'm wondering what it was I saw back then. This would seem to be good news for PS in OKC. Perhaps bow that use tax won't fund the positions some of it can go to deferred equipments needs as well. Seems back when all the comments were being made the comments were about 50/50 or 60/40 on which need was greater, bodies or durable equipment.

I'm suprised this hasn't had any comments considering all of the handringing (especially by the firefighters and police) which took place when jobs were being cut back.


Bad news always seems to travel fast. Good news seems to stop dead in it's tracks.

Its a step in the right direction, but they have a long way to go before they meet the promises made during the campaign, that if MAPS 3 passed, no jobs would be cut and positions would be added. They have corrected the "no jobs cut" part, now have to wait for the jobs to be added.

I thought that happened a couple of weeks back. Now I'm wondering what it was I saw back then. This would seem to be good news for PS in OKC. Perhaps bow that use tax won't fund the positions some of it can go to deferred equipments needs as well. Seems back when all the comments were being made the comments were about 50/50 or 60/40 on which need was greater, bodies or durable equipment.

it did come out a few weeks ago .. but the budget is a 3 part process ... and tuesday was the 3rd and final and the vote to pass ..

This is a wonderful thing, although it has made no difference so far and most likely will not make a difference until the middle of next year. The bitter part is the city has let manpower drop to such a level, people are unable to take vacation or holiday leave.

Days are scheduled up to 6 months in advance and are often canceled within weeks of the scheduled day. The Fire Chief has a budgeted amount to pay overtime to allow personnel to be called in so scheduled and approved days off can be taken. He has refused to do so.

I just last week was informed that I had 7/3 canceled, I was approved in January. So much for making plans with the family. Anybody know of any other departments that operate like that?

This is a wonderful thing, although it has made no difference so far and most likely will not make a difference until the middle of next year. The bitter part is the city has let manpower drop to such a level, people are unable to take vacation or holiday leave.

Days are scheduled up to 6 months in advance and are often canceled within weeks of the scheduled day. The Fire Chief has a budgeted amount to pay overtime to allow personnel to be called in so scheduled and approved days off can be taken. He has refused to do so.

I just last week was informed that I had 7/3 canceled, I was approved in January. So much for making plans with the family. Anybody know of any other departments that operate like that?

That's not good news for you Mike, but as you noted, the situation should begin to improve for all of the public safety workers.

Spoke to my union VP today, he told me there were 12 Dads that had their day off canceled on fathers day.

My biggest concern is that the Convention Center and some of these other projects are hi-tech, high-expense projects that won't necessarily create jobs effectively per dollar spent. There's a wonderful report by the University of Massachusetts, "The U.S. Employment Effects of Military and Domestic Spending Priorities (http://www.ips-dc.org/reports/071001-jobcreation.pdf)", that breaks down the exact amounts of jobs and total wages/benefits created per $1 billion of spending by different government sectors (military, healthcare, education, etc.).

Page 6 has a great chart revealing that Education, Mass Transit, and Healthcare are most effective for job creation, in that order. As noted on pg. 10:



"In addition, education is a relatively labor-intensive industry. This means that, compared with the other industries we are examining, for every $1 billion in new spending in education, proportionally more money is spent on hiring new people into the industry and relatively less is spent on supplies, equipment, buildings."


You see, the Stimulus just threw money around, to the states, to people, to various causes, without spending wisely. Much of it consisted of tax cuts for personal consumption (about a third), the least effective form of spending according to that 2007 report I mentioned. If we want to truly create jobs effectively per dollar spent, we should model after FDR, creating work programs that pay people to dig ditches, repair roads and schools, or clean up community areas and buildings. Census work might be another low-cost example. These are all labor-intensive, and spend little on extraneous expenses, and thus will create jobs effectively.

My biggest concern is that the Convention Center and some of these other projects are hi-tech, high-expense projects that won't necessarily create jobs effectively per dollar spent. There's a wonderful report by the University of Massachusetts, "The U.S. Employment Effects of Military and Domestic Spending Priorities (http://www.ips-dc.org/reports/071001-jobcreation.pdf)", that breaks down the exact amounts of jobs and total wages/benefits created per $1 billion of spending by different government sectors (military, healthcare, education, etc.).

Page 6 has a great chart revealing that Education, Mass Transit, and Healthcare are most effective for job creation, in that order. As noted on pg. 10:



You see, the Stimulus just threw money around, to the states, to people, to various causes, without spending wisely. Much of it consisted of tax cuts for personal consumption (about a third), the least effective form of spending according to that 2007 report I mentioned. If we want to truly create jobs effectively per dollar spent, we should model after FDR, creating work programs that pay people to dig ditches, repair roads and schools, or clean up community areas and buildings. Census work might be another low-cost example. These are all labor-intensive, and spend little on extraneous expenses, and thus will create jobs effectively.

That is interesting but this thread is specfically about restoration of city jobs in OKC (public safety in particular) due to increases in tax collection. That doesn't have much to do with your comments.

Well, my comments related to the article you posted originally. While the first paragraph of that article dealt with job restoration, the second focused more broadly on the budget. However, I hadn't noticed the subtle distinction in your topic title, and will create another topic to address job creation, I wouldn't want to distract from your chosen topic on this thread.

Well, my comments related to the article you posted originally. While the first paragraph of that article dealt with job restoration, the second focused more broadly on the budget. However, I hadn't noticed the subtle distinction in your topic title, and will create another topic to address job creation, I wouldn't want to distract from your chosen topic on this thread.

Thanks for the smarmy response which seems to be a speciality of yours since you've joined this board. Actually most of the article is geared towards talking about how gains in the local economy have helped restore public sector jobs. Your first comments seemed to focus on benefits of the Convention Center and other civic projects. Those things were not mentioned in the article so I'm not sure how it relates.

The current OCFD recruit class is down to 42. And there are 4 more retirees as of 7/1/11. There are also 37 long term absentees currently. Those are members on FMLA, military deployments, OJI's and the like. The deputy chief of operations admitted that these are the worst times anyone has seen relating to manpower levels. Honestly, we are having a hard time keeping the doors open!

Just an update, there were 74 days off canceled in the month of June. That is 74 separate instances of individuals being told that their earned benefit was taken from them. Of the 42 remaining recruits. 17 will go to a protocols academy which depending on their certification will be an additional 3-6 weeks. Of the 41, 21 will man the rigs being put back in service. So there is really no relief in sight!

Did they get overtime for those days off canceled? I might be unhappy if I lost a day off, but if I were compensated financially in the long run I might be happier.

Having to cancel plans because time off is cancelled does suck. Never been a ps worker, but have dealt with that disappointment in the past.

But, isn't it more accurate to say their down time was required to be rescheduled? Cancelled sounds, to me anyway, as though the hours are no longer available for use at a later time. Hope the latter wasn't the case.

Did they get overtime for those days off canceled? I might be unhappy if I lost a day off, but if I were compensated financially in the long run I might be happier.

The answer to your question is no. Your day off is cancelled and thats tough. Many of us have time accrued and if not used by a certain date you lose the time.

Having to cancel plans because time off is cancelled does suck. Never been a ps worker, but have dealt with that disappointment in the past.

But, isn't it more accurate to say their down time was required to be rescheduled? Cancelled sounds, to me anyway, as though the hours are no longer available for use at a later time. Hope the latter wasn't the case.

No it would not be more accurate. In some cases, leave time can be rescheduled at a later date. In most cases, it cannot be scheduled at a later date and the time is lost by the employee. Currently, we have to schedule leave time 6 months in advance. Not only do we have to plan that far in advance, so do our wives and family members. If you have a trip planned, some expenses paid up front, and your day or days are cancelled by city administration at the last minute, its very hard to explain that to you wife and your kids. Furthermore, its just plain wrong. We have been slowly losing firefighters for about 12 years through reorgs and budget cuts as well as minimum staffing requirements. Our numbers have reached the critical point in the last 3 years, with this year being the worst. Less firefighters, More minimum staffing = less day off slots for time off. We have been tip toeing around this for the last 3 years. Last month, as a department we had 71 cancelled days. Thats 71 people who were no able to go on vacations with their families, whether its a big vacation, or a small weekend to the lake. The fact remains that there were 71 firefighters who of no fault of their own, have leave time cancelled, many of whom, lost monies in preparation for these events, and lost leave time because it expires on July 1. This is a problem that the fire admin and the city have not done a damn thing about. It is well past the point of ridiculous, it is downright insane. The city has a responsibility to properly staff the worksites, it should not be on the backs of the individual firefighters to staff the worksites. The fire dept is a very prideful organization, with a strong work ethic and never quit attitude. Our city adminstration, uses work ethic and willingness to get the job done against us. This problem is at the breaking point. So something is going to have to give here. Totally ignoring the problem has not got the city anywhere on this issue. Our current fire adminstration, chooses to do nothing as well on this issue. We keep rockin along, get thru the tough times and act as if there is not a problem. We have had 3 years of committees and workshops, for alternatives and ideas, and nothing has came of this. To fix this problem, the fire dept needs more staffing, plain and simple. Sorry for the rant. I am sure someone will reply, with quit your whining or quit. Let me head you off, the facts are the facts, not whining, and quitting is not an option.

Currently, we have to schedule leave time 6 months in advance. Not only do we have to plan that far in advance, so do our wives and family members. If you have a trip planned, some expenses paid up front, and your day or days are cancelled by city administration at the last minute, its very hard to explain that to you wife and your kids. Furthermore, its just plain wrong.

Do you have any information on how this situation is handled in most other cities comparable to OKC or if it is handled differently?

Do you have any information on how this situation is handled in most other cities comparable to OKC or if it is handled differently?

Yes, many other cities across the nation that are comparable to OKC, either do not have a staffing problem to begin with, or if they do they chose to use a call back board. A call back board is when there are a set number of day off slots per shift in advance. When an employee, uses a day off slot, admin will go down a list of day off personnel, to see if they will come in and work. They would go down the list until they fill those day off slots with people not scheduled to work.

This has been a cost benefit to the city, and yes they have to pay overtime for these guys to come in and work, but the alternative is to hire additional personnel and pay insurance as well as benefits. Many cities opt for the call back board since it is cheaper in the long run for the city.

This option has been tossed around up to 8 years ago, but the last 3 have been critical, with this year being the worst. The city and fire admin both have this option in front of them, yet they choose to do nothing about it. I understand hiring additional personnel is very expensive, so this would be a viable option. We have been losing firefighter numbers for 12 years now. As they retire they are subsequently phased out of next years budget. The work load had tripled in the last 12 years, so we have been doing more with less for quite sometime, so that argument has absolutely no credibility with me.

The fact remains we have a set number of firefighters each day that are required to be on duty just to open the doors for business on any given day. So since we are losing total number of firefighters each year, it doesnt take long to get into the situation that we are in. Like I said earlier, we could see this becoming a huge problem up to 8 years ago.

The 29 positions that were cut in the previous budget year, are to be reinstated this year. That is great for the fire dept and that is great for the citizens, since many of the positions were assigned to grass rigs. We definitely saw the effects of those grass rigs out of service in the last year, grass fires that grew larger before the were eventually brought under control. Huge holes in coverage were left when all grass rigs were sent to one area of the city to control a grass fire, just hoping we didnt have another grass fire flair up in another area. We did the best job we could with the resources that we had available, but those brush pumpers that were put out of service would have made a huge difference.

Next month, those rigs are to be put back in service, but all that will do from a staffing standpoint is increase the minimum amount of firefighters required to be on duty to open the doors for business. Those will not be used for day off slots as some people tend to think, they are simply to staff rigs, thats it. I hope this gives you some insight. Once again, this is not whining, these are the facts.

How nice! I've been approved to be off this Saturday. I've had the day approved since April 26th. It was canceled and last week I was told I would be allowed off, this afternoon my day was canceled again. I suppose my son can come to the fire station to visit on his birthday. There are as of now, 9 total days canceled this Saturday.

Just an update, Thursday July 21st, manpower was so low that extra personnel were removed from their assigned positions as Customer service liaison, Quality assurance officer and 2 training officers were taken from the recruit academy and sent to work on the rigs to keep manning at the minimum level. At 5 pm when the last training officer was due to end his work day. A firefighter was called in from a scheduled and approved day off to work the rest of the shift. At his regular hourly rate of overtime x 14 hours. Just saying!

Another little tidbit to add to MM's post is that upon graduation of 42 recruits next month, the FD will still be 17 positions short, along with 40+ long terms. That's 57 positions before you start scheduling required training......oh yeah and that little issue of the employees right to use their earned benefit of vacation leave. The FD has been at a critical stage for awhile but actions seem to come slow within and as long as a Big Red Fire Truck arrives, the general public still doesn't understand. This is one more opportunity for me to add "WE TOLD YOU SO". And Yes, I still Love my Job. However, my family still loves me and would like for me to continue coming home after each shift and being able to take a vacation every once in a while.