Every reference to him brings up his union endorsements -- which he did not seek? They're trying to sell this insider banker Swinton as a progressive in a progressive district, when he's basically a stooge of the Chamber.

Why is the Oklahoman trying to paint Shadid as a MAPS opponent, when in fact Swinton is the only remaining candidate who has discussed "putting off" projects, like the "trolley," as he stupidly calls it.

I've met Shadid and he's a much better, more progressive fit for the Ward than banker good ol' boy Swinton.

This should be an interesting race. It will be very interesting to see if the Oklahoman continues to try to smear Shadid in both its news coverage as well as on its editorial page.

Why should you follow The Oklahoman? Not very many people are following that crap anymore. Don't give them any attention.

People who vote in local elections read the op-ed page.

I think both would be a good choice, and I'm actually not as concerned about Shadid as other urbanists on this board might be. I think Swinton would be the likeliest to leave MAPS alone, though. Shadid has the right ideas though, and I think he could develop into a strong local leader.

You guys need to go back and listen to the KTOK interview with Shadid before he started getting professional coaching advice from the unions. He wants to kill MAPS and divert the funds to police and fire. Why do you think he was endorsed by both unions?

Why should you follow The Oklahoman? Not very many people are following that crap anymore. Don't give them any attention.

But then we wouldn't have had the Ford tax, the MAPS 3 tax.... :-)

You guys need to go back and listen to the KTOK interview with Shadid before he started getting professional coaching advice from the unions. He wants to kill MAPS and divert the funds to police and fire. Why do you think he was endorsed by both unions?

This is total BS.

What union are you in soonerguru?

What union are you in soonerguru?

Not a member and I never have been.

I'm saying there's good cause to reconsider Shadid. I think he just has a Pete White view of transit.

I'm saying there's good cause to reconsider Shadid. I think he just has a Pete White view of transit.

I'm all ears. This is not what I'm hearing from transit types.

I don't really know, I'm trying to figure it out myself right now. His attack on the streetcar, I believe, is that he wanted the money to be spent on more buses for the needy neighborhoods or something like that. Well, that's going to be a non-starter on the City Council, and it will go nowhere. He's going to need to jump aboard the streetcar gravy train if he wants to improve transit in any way in OKC, and I think further down the road he could be a good advocate for a major overhaul of the bus system, and I can name a lot of things off the top of my head that could stand to be reformed there...

Shadid said in his KTOK interview that he prefered the bus system over streetcars and if I remember correcrtly, said if it was up to him none of the MAPS items would be built until every street in OKC was safe. If he was for MAPS III why did the unions put their support behind him when every other candidate they backed was anti-MAPS III? The Unions are so anti-MAPS III they supported Baptist Tea Party types - that is how much they hate MAPS. If Shadid was pro-MAPS he should have rejected their endorsement.

I somewhat agree. But there are some realities in City Hall (one of the first being that OKC "streets" are as safe as they're ever going to be without a major environmental shift) that I know Shadid recognizes. He's a respectable guy, I'm just not sure he wasn't just posturing to populist voters. I'd be interested in hearing a newer statement from him to see if he chooses his words any differently now that he sees that MAPS is indeed what the city really wants.

I listened to that interview as I was awaiting my time slot, and was alarmed at his transit comments as well. He apparently listened to my interview and called me. We went over at length what the project is, what we are doing, and why were doing it the way were doing it.

He completely changed his mind and is endorsing it as intended. Apparently, the Pete White rhetoric is what he was basing his earlier comments on.

I sent a long email to Swinton telling him who we are and asked for a meeting to educate him. No response. I had to corner him at the ULI debate. He says he'll want to know more if he gets elected.

Just saying, that's what happened.

U.P. the next time you talk to Shadid ask him about his attempt to get the Green Party endorsement when he ran for District 85. I don't think you can trust him. The guy is a union leftist and will probably say anything to get elected. The fact he said one thing in the interview and then said the opposite when talking in person is an indication of that. If someone likes the Green Party and unionism then fine, vote for Shadid; but if their primary interest is keeping MAPS III on track they need to find a different person to support.

http://www.greenpartywatch.org/2010/06/10/in-oklahoma-dr-edward-shadid-announces-historic-bid-for-state-house-seeks-green-party-endorsement/

I don't know about other Shadid issues. Only transit. But I take both Swinton and him at face value when they say something. Why shouldn't I? If either of them is elected, we will hold them to their word on our project.

"Union leftist?" That's a strange description for a surgeon. Which union does he belong to, the Physicians & Surgeons Local?

Why would anyone reject an endorsement unless it's from a criminal enterprise? They weren't endorsing him because he's against MAPS, they endorsed him because he was running against the chamber's candidate, Swinton.

I don't know about other Shadid issues. Only transit. But I take both Swinton and him at face value when they say something. Why shouldn't I? If either of them is elected, we will hold them to their word on our project.

When I hear a politician say something my first instinct is to assume they are lying and to look and see if there is evidence to indicate what they are saying is true or false (20 years experience)

Whose lying? What are they lying about?

Here is how I would like to see this runoff go down;

They both start from equal distances in terms of miles from downtown and only using public transit they race to be the first to city hall. Much like the amazing race reality show. The first one there is awarded winner of the council seat.

Here is how I would like to see this runoff go down;

They both start from equal distances in terms of miles from downtown and only using public transit they race to be the first to city hall. Much like the amazing race reality show. The first one there is awarded winner of the council seat.

LOL!!! For that to really work though we need a third candidate that is allowed to use a simulated streetcar. My guess is both Swinton and Shadid would also want to use the simulated streetcar.

Why would anyone reject an endorsement unless it's from a criminal enterprise?

The police/fire unions aren't very far from deserving that designation IMO.

But anyway, as for Shadid, here's what he wrote on his campaign website:

"MAPS3 is a bond with the voters. It must be implemented in its entirety with transparency and with the maximum public deliberation. Mr. Swinton risks the legitimacy of future referendums by essentially eliminating the rail component. We do not get to pick and choose which projects we (or our unknown financial sponsors) want to move forward."

Doesn't sound very anti-rail to me.

Everyone does realize Charlie Swinton asked the police and fire for their endorsement??? Shadid and Swinton both spoke to about 70 police officers asking for their endorsement and they interviewed with the firefighters. Both the police and firefighters took votes and endorsed Shadid unanimously.

The police/fire unions aren't very far from deserving that designation IMO.

But anyway, as for Shadid, here's what he wrote on his campaign website:

"MAPS3 is a bond with the voters. It must be implemented in its entirety with transparency and with the maximum public deliberation. Mr. Swinton risks the legitimacy of future referendums by essentially eliminating the rail component. We do not get to pick and choose which projects we (or our unknown financial sponsors) want to move forward."

Doesn't sound very anti-rail to me.

That wasn't what he said before. I guess you have to decide which version of Shadid you want to believe (Shadid 1.0 or Shadid 2.0). Just keep in mind the Shadid 2.0 is back by a labor union that was attracted to him by positions taken by Shadid 1.0.

In reality, you might have to pick from the lessor of two evils. If I had to choose I would pick the opposite of the union support.

That wasn't what he said before. I guess you have to decide which version of Shadid you want to believe (Shadid 1.0 or Shadid 2.0). Just keep in mind the Shadid 2.0 is back by a labor union that was attracted to him by positions taken by Shadid 1.0.

In reality, you might have to pick from the lessor of two evils. If I had to choose I would pick the opposite of the union support.

I don't think that the union decided to back him based on comments he made on a radio show. With all due respect Kerry, earlier last week you were naive enough to think you were educating us with your "research" on Fred Hall which somehow proved he was worth mega bucks. I know who Fred is and I know a lot more about his business interests than you do, and the people he depends on, and I'm not going to go blabbing "revelations" about it (it's no big secret really) on an Internet forum.

Furthermore, I think how removed from OKC you are and your naivete about OKC hierarchy is coming in play again. Shadid is part of a really well-connected family that is somewhat involved in local politics, and I assure you that the union leaders and Shadid didn't just meet on the street or have coffee after his comments on the radio. There is no Shadid 1.0 or Shadid 2.0. Come on, see the big picture...

I think soonerguru is absolutely right on this. It's Shadid v. Swinton after all.

At least Shadid has put that promise in writing.

Even if he does have a change of heart or is insincere, it would be hard to take a contrary position now. He would get absolutely flayed.

Sid, check out the issues part of Shadid's page:
http://voteshadid.com/issues/

"Standing Up for Our Neighborhoods

Dr. Ed Shadid believes investing in our neighborhoods is a better use of Oklahoma City’s scarce resources than giveaways to big corporations and big banks… As the father of three young children, Dr. Shadid supports programs and plans that enhance the quality of life in our community.

Ed believes we should use tax dollars collected from Oklahoma City’s hard working citizens to improve the neighborhoods we live, work and play in.

Ed supports increasing the number of sidewalks to make our community more walkable and adding streetlights and crosswalks to make our neighborhoods safer. In addition, he supports programs that promote healthy lifestyles, including bicycling, community gardens and sustainable development."

Sounds good to me. I didn't know, I just discovered his campaign website myself, as you can see. I've had a lot of questions about Shadid myself lately. A lot of things not adding up, but it does seem to be clearing up.. I think ultimately it's good to be able to refocus on this one ward now.

Also, I think more info is needed on Swinton, too. Too bad it seems like he took his website offline. But Shadid does accuse Swinton of wanting to remove rail-based transit from MAPS. That's interesting.

In reality, you might have to pick from the lessor of two evils. If I had to choose I would pick the opposite of the union support.

I think we've found a way for the PS unions to once again wield political clout: endorse the candidate they don't want to win.

^^ Very Funny!

I think we've found a way for the PS unions to once again wield political clout: endorse the candidate they don't want to win.

The unions would never risk it.

I think we've found a way for the PS unions to once again wield political clout: endorse the candidate they don't want to win.

Wow, here's an acronym I haven't used in like 10 years, but I think is appropriate for this occasion: LMAO

The unions would never risk it.

Your obsessive anti-union bromides are getting tired. That said, the local police and fire unions have really executed some dumb strategy at the potential expense of the citizens. Fortunately, the citizens saw through it all.

I think we've found a way for the PS unions to once again wield political clout: endorse the candidate they don't want to win.

I drove by the Union Hall today and would swear I noticed several Mick for Mayor, 2014 signs

Pete, you and Spartan are cackling like a couple of school girls. I read your posts and can hear Charlie Sheen in the background screaming "winning"!!!!! Yeah for you! The chamber of commerce spent close to a million dollars to make sure their agenda is secured. Now lets get those criminals unions beat down, criminal enterprise? the bargaining agent for 900 hard working tax payers is a criminal enterprise because they dared to oppose your views. Your self importance is comical.

Pete, you and Spartan are cackling like a couple of school girls. I read your posts and can hear Charlie Sheen in the background screaming "winning"!!!!! Yeah for you! The chamber of commerce spent close to a million dollars to make sure their agenda is secured. Now lets get those criminals unions beat down, criminal enterprise? the bargaining agent for 900 hard working tax payers is a criminal enterprise because they dared to oppose your views. Your self importance is comical.
Mike, do you have on such efficient blinders that you are not to be able to recognize that the bolded part of your above quote is precisely how some of us, including me, see your many duplicitous comments here? Probably, that doesn't matter to you since most everything you say is apparently a matter of principle for you, but at the least you should know that your own opinions are not at all seen by many as anything but redundant polemic statements, designed to provoke, contributing nothing intellectually to the discussion, and carrying the fire's flag down the swirly toilet to its last gasp before it is finally sucked out of sight and then is gone altogether? That's a rhetorical question, since you very plainly don't have that perception.

Pete, you and Spartan are cackling like a couple of school girls. I read your posts and can hear Charlie Sheen in the background screaming "winning"!!!!! Yeah for you! The chamber of commerce spent close to a million dollars to make sure their agenda is secured. Now lets get those criminals unions beat down, criminal enterprise? the bargaining agent for 900 hard working tax payers is a criminal enterprise because they dared to oppose your views. Your self importance is comical.

Close to a million dollars? Seriously? But, I'd bet you a lot of money that, despite what their leaflets said, they were really terrified of having McManen, Hearron and Walters all in there together, with the chance someone would tag along and it would render the council completely ineffective and threaten MAPS. I did see a couple of the leaflets and thought they were singularly unclever. Had I been in one of the voting wards, those leaflets would have had zero impact on how I voted. I am sorry I missed the Brian Walters/Obama one though.

I think you overestimate the fear you create in the hearts of the Chamber. Why would they care if you all hire a few more firefighters, or even get a raise? It's not going to affect the business climate. I think it was your choice of political partner that was the more important aspect of the campaign to them.

Channel 9 reported that the chamber sent out 9 mailers in the Walters campaign to the tune of $250,000.00.

Doug, obviously you impress yourself. Take your blinders off and reread their statements, tell me it doesnt sound elitist! Are you saying you just post drivel, that there is no principle in your postings. I'm doing the same as the rest of you on here. Saying what I think. I will tell you I think your wrong, just the same as you tell me. This little board is a minute slice of real life so, really try not to take yourself as the gospel!

Channel 9 reported that the chamber sent out 9 mailers in the Walters campaign to the tune of $250,000.00.

Doug, obviously you impress yourself. Take your blinders off and reread their statements, tell me it doesnt sound elitist! Are you saying you just post drivel, that there is no principle in your postings. I'm doing the same as the rest of you on here. Saying what I think. I will tell you I think your wrong, just the same as you tell me. This little board is a minute slice of real life so, really try not to take yourself as the gospel!

here is a real ? then. Do you think that the fire union has made wise political choices in the last few elections??

You most likely don't think so. I know what the strategy was and is. I wouldn't have spent two days canvassing if I didn't think it was needed. Outcome, that is anybodies guess. I talked to many people who think Okc is more than downtown. Less than 19,000 people voted. I hardly see that as a mandate or referendum as the DOK stated today. On to the future. We have momentum and moving forward on our sides!

Pete, you and Spartan are cackling like a couple of school girls. I read your posts and can hear Charlie Sheen in the background screaming "winning"!!!!! Yeah for you! The chamber of commerce spent close to a million dollars to make sure their agenda is secured. Now lets get those criminals unions beat down, criminal enterprise? the bargaining agent for 900 hard working tax payers is a criminal enterprise because they dared to oppose your views. Your self importance is comical.

Come on... get a grip man. I can't even respond to this hyperbole. I only wish I were nearly as self-important as a member of the PS unions...


You most likely don't think so. I know what the strategy was and is. I wouldn't have spent two days canvassing if I didn't think it was needed. Outcome, that is anybodies guess. I talked to many people who think Okc is more than downtown. Less than 19,000 people voted. I hardly see that as a mandate or referendum as the DOK stated today. On to the future. We have momentum and moving forward on our sides!

No kidding, and it's more than Memorial Road, too. But why would we ask the UNIONS what the best way of improving the inner city is? I think we share the same goal: strong neighborhood improvement all the way from 74th up to 63rd, missing NOWHERE in between. Do you honestly think that more police officers and firefighters is the best and only way to do that? Personally, from my standpoint (being an academic on the subject of urban design) I don't even see where public safety is relevant to that equation. Am I missing something? We need butter, not guns.

Why do you oppose a reinvigorated center city? Every dollar OKC has spent on downtown redevelopment has been a very wise investment so far. Do you have reason to think that now is the time to stop?

Spartan, tell me what the city is doing in Westlawn? You know down by the flats. Zilch. There is a mammoth pot hole at the entrance to Brink Junior High. Been there a year and a half. They keep dumping asphalt in it. You can see all of the materials that keep coming out, it's piled in the yard. I know Betts, we had a bond issue in 2007. But damn the torpedoes, we must fix downtown.

Let's say this again, we are not trying to expand the department. We are trying to keep from losing another 100 people. We have said a hundred times, needs before wants! But in saying that you hear "give me a raise"! That leads me to believe you only hear what you want. Everybody wants the same thing! I would like to see it spread around though!

How much revenue is a fixed pothole going to produce for the city?

How much revenue is a fixed pothole going to produce for the city?

I'm not sure I understand this question. Are you saying that the only criterion for municipal spending is how much revenue it will produce for 'the city'?

Downtown has to wait on collection of funds as well. I'm sure the road will be fixed well before we have we have a streetcar running. Yes, if the pothole is big enough, it probably needs to be put higher on the fix list than some other roads. But, it's a POTHOLE. It's an inconvenience for people who drive cars. Let's not make it something bigger than it really is.

And again, you don't need personnel to fight fires. We all know that. You need personnel to respond to 911 calls. To get the personnel to answer 911 calls you were willing to support people who have a political agenda diametrically opposed to what I would think most union members have. You were willing to sacrifice your principles for expediency. So, sacrifice your principles again and tell the city you can't go on every 911 call. Tell them they'll have to make do with EMSA. Or tell them that they'll have to live with slower response times. Is it illegal to have slower response times? Or rather, have you convinced yourselves that a slower response time is unacceptable and so people in Oklahoma City are suffering if you've got less personnel. The people who bothered to vote were more interested in MAPS than response times. The rest may care but they didn't care enough to vote.

There's the rub. You have created a standard for your department that the city and its voters have not demonstrated they're willing to support. If that means that your people are working harder than they should, then it's up to your leadership to tell the city what services you don't have enough personnel to perform and stick with that position. It's not enough to try to get a few people into office that you believe understand your position or who will understand it for political favors.

Personally, from my standpoint (being an academic on the subject of urban design) I don't even see where public safety is relevant to that equation. Am I missing something?

What you are missing is having your car stolen, your home burglarized, the house on the corner tagged by gangs, crackheads knocking on your door at ten pm to hit you up for money to buy a rock.

That is not going to be improved by the opening of the Whole Foods, or a glamorous OKC bump shot on ESPN, or any of the other holy grails of OKC Talk.

But, it's a POTHOLE. It's an inconvenience for people who drive cars. Let's not make it something bigger than it really is.

The group 'people who drive cars' constitutes the vast majority of the city's population.

Spartan, tell me what the city is doing in Westlawn? You know down by the flats. Zilch. There is a mammoth pot hole at the entrance to Brink Junior High.

Whoa whoa whoa. I went to Brink Junior High like a decade+ ago. Oh there's a pothole in front of it? Well holy crap. I drive up and down S. Western at least a thousand times a year...How many potholes do you think there are downtown? I assure you way more than in the entire Westmoore area (what is this "Westlawn" you speak of??). You want to know one thing that causes potholes? Winter weather. Oh, and having roads. That seems to be a bad combination, but what can ya do? What do we pride ourselves on as a city, fixing potholes? Why don't we actually build something for a change. We haven't really built a city since the 20s or 30s.

I see that it's 4 pm local time, isn't your program on or something? That's what I think when I hear people kvetching about a particular pothole. Good grief...


We are trying to keep from losing another 100 people. We have said a hundred times, needs before wants! But in saying that you hear "give me a raise"!

Yeah it's really funny how it always comes down to that though...what do we call that then, a coincidence??

Perhaps the key term should have been "inconvenience". A pothole is not cancer, it's not starvation. It's an inconvenience. Sorry, but I had to drive 20 miles on rutted gravel roads to get to my grandmother's house every Sunday. What we consider bad streets would have been a dream there. It's perhaps a matter of perspective.

Or in Tulsa...

Let me ask a better question... why are we using THIS particular pothole at about Western and SW 119th as the reason why can't do neighborhood improvement? I think by "Westlawn" mikemarsh really means the Westmoore area.. I assure you Westmoore area is not in need of "neighborhood improvement." Go to Classen Ten Penn or Military Park or JFK and tell them you demand neighborhood improvement.

Good luck. Oh, and complain to them about that one pothole too..

What you are missing is having your car stolen, your home burglarized, the house on the corner tagged by gangs, crackheads knocking on your door at ten pm to hit you up for money to buy a rock.

That is not going to be improved by the opening of the Whole Foods, or a glamorous OKC bump shot on ESPN, or any of the other holy grails of OKC Talk.

Then perhaps we should be talking to the city about pulling all the police who are giving traffic tickets so they can prevent burglary and gang tagging, and knocking crackheads. I'm not sure it fights crime to ticket people who are driving 40 on Broadway or who turn right on a red light on 63rd and May. Perhaps the four police cars I see parked in a clump talking to each other in Bricktown on weekends should be out fighting crime instead.

If we have no police, crime will undoubtedly increase. People will feel safe committing crimes. But, how many car thefts do police actually prevent? How many house burglaries do they foil? Most police help is reactive, not preventative, beyond the deterrernt that a baseline level of police affords. I'm not saying we shouldn't have police help. But, those sales taxes at Whole Foods will pay some of their salaries. The sales and property taxes paid by the NBA players will help support our city and county services.

It's way too simplistic to say we should have one and not the other. Improving Oklahoma City not only improves quality of life, but it brings outside money in to the city. It helps fund police and fire services. That's why I think it's counter productive and passive aggressive to work against city improvements.

Then perhaps we should be talking to the city about pulling all the police who are giving traffic tickets so they can prevent burglary and gang tagging, and knocking crackheads. I'm not sure it fights crime to ticket people who are driving 40 on Broadway or who turn right on a red light on 63rd and May. Perhaps the four police cars I see parked in a clump talking to each other in Bricktown on weekends should be out fighting crime instead.

If we have no police, crime will undoubtedly increase. People will feel safe committing crimes. But, how many car thefts do police actually prevent? How many house burglaries do they foil? Most police help is reactive, not preventative, beyond the deterrernt that a baseline level of police affords. I'm not saying we shouldn't have police help. But, those sales taxes at Whole Foods will pay some of their salaries. The sales and property taxes paid by the NBA players will help support our city and county services.

It's way too simplistic to say we should have one and not the other. Improving Oklahoma City not only improves quality of life, but it brings outside money in to the city. It helps fund police and fire services. That's why I think it's counter productive and passive aggressive to work against city improvements.

But if we keep OKC in the dumps, there is crime, and then there is demand for more police jobs. If OKC's makes huge environmental improvements which happens to foster a safer, more subdued environment, that means we need less police officers. Survival instincts are just kicking in... THEN how will people without college degrees make more money than people with??

Channel 9 reported that the chamber sent out 9 mailers in the Walters campaign to the tune of $250,000.00.


As someone who has worked in several campaigns and has coordinated mail strategy, I call 110% B.S. on this. There is no way on earth that 9 mailers for a city council race would cost even close to that much. Being VERY GENEROUS, it would cost around $50,000. Get your facts straight (i.e., I seriously doubt that's what News9 reported).

King, mikemarsh is the one who said Walters was a blessed man or something nutty like that. Walters is a schmuck who the southside was tired of being embarrassed of, and now they voted him out. Good riddance.

As someone who has worked in several campaigns and has coordinated mail strategy, I call 110% B.S. on this. There is no way on earth that 9 mailers for a city council race would cost even close to that much. Being VERY GENEROUS, it would cost around $50,000. Get your facts straight (i.e., I seriously doubt that's what News9 reported).

Perhaps, being very generous, that's what was spent for all the candidates the chamber sent out pamphlets supporting. Dunno. As to whether it was worth it for them financially, I'm not a chamber member and I didn't contribute to this campaign so I don't really have a right to comment. It does seem as if the city stands to benefit financially to an extreme degree if all the MAPS projects are completed, and I would think the chamber would argue they have interest in seeing city councilors elected who have gone on record saying they believe MAPS should be completed as outlined.

Which brings us back to...... Shadid v. Swinton?

As someone who has worked in several campaigns and has coordinated mail strategy, I call 110% B.S. on this. There is no way on earth that 9 mailers for a city council race would cost even close to that much. Being VERY GENEROUS, it would cost around $50,000. Get your facts straight (i.e., I seriously doubt that's what News9 reported).

King is right. Something got garbled up in this report. Either they spent $250,000 doing mailings for three candidates, or the figure represents far more than mailings

I don't know. Can we trust that Shadid's turnaround is whole hearted? If it isn't, is he going to be less supportive of MAPS than Swinton, who likes everything but the "trolley" (I don't like the trolleys either).

Shadid certainly seems to be a little farther to the left politically. I'm not sure that's such a bad thing. It's nice to have some balance on the council and to have some new ideas. I certainly like walking, gardens and sustainability. If he promotes those, I don't see that as a bad thing. If he's in favor of mass transit, well, I am too. I want the streetcar AND a better bus system. I'm thinking of running for COTPA myself (there was supposed to be a winky smiley there, but I can't get it to work).

Betts, I think your slipping. We don't need personnel to fight fire? When the Devon is finished. A working fire in that building will require half of the on duty personnel.

I see where we dis agree. You don't think the city is responsible for all of the city. I think they should be paying more attention to the rest of town.

Midtowner, that just made you look silly!