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lake hefner breeze
02-24-2011, 06:16 PM
The OG&E Smart Meter is currently being installed throughout OKC after initial testing in Norman. It has come to my attention that there are many issues about these meters that are causing deep concern in other states. This includes health problems, fire hazards, privacy rights, price increases, inadequate security and more. Personally, I am concerned about the microwave radiation that they broadcast and the negative impact it can have on my family, friends, and pets. I have researched this and believe it can be detrimental.

Most people will be more interested in the price increases you are going to experience through "peak hour usage" as you are "monitored" by the smartgrid. But since it's all under the guise of a green initiative you won't mind paying more, right? Not that it matters what you think because as it stands now OG&E says this is mandatory with no "opt out" available. After all, this is a nationwide multi-billion dollar taxpayer funded program, so you're getting it whether you like it or not. I don't. And surely neither do all the soon to be laid off meter readers, but who cares about them, right, there's plenty of work out there.

I do realize we are all bathed in wireless RF constantly from wi-fi, cell towers, radio, tv, etc. However, I choose to limit my exposure by not having wi-fi, using a landline phone not cordless, only using a cell phone occasionally, and not having any other wireless devices apart from a tv remote. I don't say this to sound superior, it's just what works for me. That said, I am not a Luddite, I really do enjoy new technology, when it's proven safe and truly beneficial.

Go ahead and break out the tinfoil hat jokes...if you must.

Here is a link to the one page OG&E has devoted to the meters:
http://www.oge.com/residential-customers/products-and-services/Positive-Energy-Smart-Grid/Pages/Smart%20Grid.aspx

Once you read that here's some stuff that you to might find valuable:

http://stopsmartmeters.wordpress.com/

MIT graduate explains the dark side of smart meters
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FLeCTaSG2-U

Skyrocketing Utility Bills after smart meter installation (3 minutes, 19 seconds)
http://www.bakersfieldnow.com/news/63581287.html?tab=video

Insurance Companies Won't Insure Wireless Device Health Risks (3 minutes, 13 seconds)
http://eon3emfblog.net/?p=382

Microwave radiation dangers in our home (6 minutes, 20 seconds)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aAnrmJ3un1g

Truth about Smart Meters - Dr. Karl Maret, MD, Biomedical Engineer
(Dr. Maret's presentation begins at 23:40 on the video telecast).
http://www.communitytv.org/programs/online/truth-about-smart-meters

Radiation Measured From Smart Meter Mounted On A Home (6 minutes, 21 seconds)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uRejDxBE6OE

Wounded by Wireless Smart Meters (14 minutes, 19 seconds)
http://eon3emfblog.net/?p=8403.

Top Wireless Radiation scientists in the world reporting at the Commonwealth Club in San Francisco Nov 18, 2010: cell damage, DNA breaks, blood/brain barrier breaches.
http://electromagnetichealth.org/electromagnetic-health-blog/cc-video/

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Precautionary_principle

OkieDave
02-24-2011, 08:16 PM
There are dozens of different kinds of smart meters. What kind of smart meters are really having real problems? Is OGE using those? I appreciate seeing daily use to help reduce my costs I am already saving money since mine was installed. If you have one of the new ones you can go to www.myogepower.com (http://myogepower.com) put in your account number and email and start seeing you daily use. Kinda cool.

lake hefner breeze
02-24-2011, 10:17 PM
There are dozens of different kinds of smart meters. What kind of smart meters are really having real problems? Is OGE using those? I appreciate seeing daily use to help reduce my costs I am already saving money since mine was installed. If you have one of the new ones you can go to www.myogepower.com (http://myogepower.com) put in your account number and email and start seeing you daily use. Kinda cool.

Just to be clear, in my original post I was referring specifically to smart meters for electricity not gas. As far as I know OG&E is using the same meters as the energy companies in California and Texas, where most of the information about problems is coming from.

Dozens of different kinds? Really? Could you please post pictures or more info about these other meters?

You seem enthusiastic about your savings, but I'm not so sure the process is realistic for everyone. The only way to actually reduce your bill with the smart meter is to change the times in which you use electricity the most, i.e. away from peak usage hours. So you better hope you don't have to do something drastic like turn on the heat during these times because you will be forced to pay a premium rate. Maybe just put on a sweater instead! I guess it really is a smart meter, training a human that way.

For the reasons I stated before, I will refuse to allow this meter to be placed on my home.

Texans shocked by high electric bills due to "smart meters".
http://www.dallasnews.com/news/community-news/dallas/headlines/20100305-Texans-shocked-by-high-electric-bills-3609.ece

venture
02-24-2011, 11:54 PM
The only thing that I've noticed during the test in Norman, was last summer when they declared "critical usage" days on weird days. It would be like a Sunday with temps in the low 70s. However, declaring critical usage (or whatever the exact term was) allows them to bill you 4 times the regular rate for that time period. Definitely was one of those WTF moments when I saw those alerts. All in all though, it did show me save some money over what I normally would have paid...but for all we know, the numbers could be skewed to show an advantage regardless of the situation.

rcjunkie
02-25-2011, 03:32 AM
Just to be clear, in my original post I was referring specifically to smart meters for electricity not gas. As far as I know OG&E is using the same meters as the energy companies in California and Texas, where most of the information about problems is coming from.

Dozens of different kinds? Really? Could you please post pictures or more info about these other meters?

You seem enthusiastic about your savings, but I'm not so sure the process is realistic for everyone. The only way to actually reduce your bill with the smart meter is to change the times in which you use electricity the most, i.e. away from peak usage hours. So you better hope you don't have to do something drastic like turn on the heat during these times because you will be forced to pay a premium rate. Maybe just put on a sweater instead! I guess it really is a smart meter, training a human that way.

For the reasons I stated before, I will refuse to allow this meter to be placed on my home.Texans shocked by high electric bills due to "smart meters".
http://www.dallasnews.com/news/community-news/dallas/headlines/20100305-Texans-shocked-by-high-electric-bills-3609.ece

Do you really think you can stop them, eventually every house serviced by OG&E will have the new smart meter. If you don't want one, I suggest you start looking at wind power, solar, gasoline generator or move.

BBatesokc
02-25-2011, 06:53 AM
I'm on flat rate billing, so, I'll probably never notice.

drum4no1
02-25-2011, 08:55 PM
Im on flat rate billing and on my last renew mybill went down 2 dollars with the new meters

Double Edge
02-25-2011, 09:41 PM
I believe OG&E is using Silver Spring's meters.

http://www.silverspringnet.com/

Other issues not withstanding, it will be good if OG&E gives customers the kind of access to their usage these systems are capable of showing. I don't have a smart meter yet unless they snuck one in on me. I do have The Energy Detective 5000 installed on my service. http://www.theenergydetective.com/home

brownb01
02-26-2011, 07:21 PM
The OG&E Smart Meter is currently being installed throughout OKC after initial testing in Norman. It has come to my attention that there are many issues about these meters that are causing deep concern in other states. This includes health problems, fire hazards, privacy rights, price increases, inadequate security and more. Personally, I am concerned about the microwave radiation that they broadcast and the negative impact it can have on my family, friends, and pets. I have researched this and believe it can be detrimental.

Most people will be more interested in the price increases you are going to experience through "peak hour usage" as you are "monitored" by the smartgrid. But since it's all under the guise of a green initiative you won't mind paying more, right? Not that it matters what you think because as it stands now OG&E says this is mandatory with no "opt out" available. After all, this is a nationwide multi-billion dollar taxpayer funded program, so you're getting it whether you like it or not. I don't. And surely neither do all the soon to be laid off meter readers, but who cares about them, right, there's plenty of work out there.

I do realize we are all bathed in wireless RF constantly from wi-fi, cell towers, radio, tv, etc. However, I choose to limit my exposure by not having wi-fi, using a landline phone not cordless, only using a cell phone occasionally, and not having any other wireless devices apart from a tv remote. I don't say this to sound superior, it's just what works for me. That said, I am not a Luddite, I really do enjoy new technology, when it's proven safe and truly beneficial.

Go ahead and break out the tinfoil hat jokes...if you must.

Here is a link to the one page OG&E has devoted to the meters:
http://www.oge.com/residential-customers/products-and-services/Positive-Energy-Smart-Grid/Pages/Smart%20Grid.aspx

Once you read that here's some stuff that you to might find valuable:

http://stopsmartmeters.wordpress.com/

MIT graduate explains the dark side of smart meters
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FLeCTaSG2-U

Skyrocketing Utility Bills after smart meter installation (3 minutes, 19 seconds)
http://www.bakersfieldnow.com/news/63581287.html?tab=video

Insurance Companies Won't Insure Wireless Device Health Risks (3 minutes, 13 seconds)
http://eon3emfblog.net/?p=382

Microwave radiation dangers in our home (6 minutes, 20 seconds)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aAnrmJ3un1g

Truth about Smart Meters - Dr. Karl Maret, MD, Biomedical Engineer
(Dr. Maret's presentation begins at 23:40 on the video telecast).
http://www.communitytv.org/programs/online/truth-about-smart-meters

Radiation Measured From Smart Meter Mounted On A Home (6 minutes, 21 seconds)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uRejDxBE6OE

Wounded by Wireless Smart Meters (14 minutes, 19 seconds)
http://eon3emfblog.net/?p=8403.

Top Wireless Radiation scientists in the world reporting at the Commonwealth Club in San Francisco Nov 18, 2010: cell damage, DNA breaks, blood/brain barrier breaches.
http://electromagnetichealth.org/electromagnetic-health-blog/cc-video/

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Precautionary_principle



Dont care. I still be happy to have one.

Thunder
02-26-2011, 08:53 PM
I suggest installing metal/iron bars on the house around the meter with several toughest locks on it. That way OGE can never get around to replacing it. Stand up and protest against them. In no way shall they force this on us. New buildings, fine, but older meters already in place, no. Customers should have the option to select for new replacement.

brownb01
02-26-2011, 10:01 PM
I suggest installing metal/iron bars on the house around the meter with several toughest locks on it. That way OGE can never get around to replacing it. Stand up and protest against them. In no way shall they force this on us. New buildings, fine, but older meters already in place, no. Customers should have the option to select for new replacement.


You have to be kidding me? They own the meter! They can do whatever they want.

You have an option too...if you don't like, don't get electricty!

lake hefner breeze
02-27-2011, 06:45 AM
Do you really think you can stop them, eventually every house serviced by OG&E will have the new smart meter. If you don't want one, I suggest you start looking at wind power, solar, gasoline generator or move.

I'm going to try. That you are incredulous to even the possibility is simply disturbing.
I understand why people feel this way, but we should ask ourselves why we ascribe such invincibility to corporations like OGE.


Dont care. I still be happy to have one.

Apathy is not a good argument. I bet you didn't have a problem with asbestos either.


I suggest installing metal/iron bars on the house around the meter with several toughest locks on it. That way OGE can never get around to replacing it. Stand up and protest against them. In no way shall they force this on us. New buildings, fine, but older meters already in place, no. Customers should have the option to select for new replacement.

People all over the country are locking down their meters and securing their backyards. OGE has contracted a company called Corix to do the installs. They drive small white trucks and are not licensed electricians.


I guess you are probably kidding? If not, you should know that you don't own that meter. You have no right to it nor should you. That would be like brining your own gas pump to the gas station. Cities do it all the time. Replace out old meters with new ones. Right now there is a lot of energy (pun intended) behind wireless meters and "smart" meters. It is just a matter of time before they are all replaced.

No, sidburgess, Thunder is not kidding. Despite what you say we do have a right to not have unsafe products forced upon our homes and families.

These "smart" meters aren't even UL listed !

Reference to UL listing here:http://stopsmartmeters.org/?p=564


You have to be kidding me? They own the meter! They can do whatever they want.
You have an option too...if you don't like, don't get electricty!

Can they? So we should all just lie down prostrate before our power providing Overlords? No thanks. To me that's Un-American. And I will continue using electricity, as long as it is delivered in a safe and responsible manner.

OGE desperately wants to keep the rollout of these smart meters as quiet as possible in light of the worldwide outrage and problems associated with them. They know that once this is put in place it will be very hard to go back. Even if you experience higher bills or health problems from it. They don't care. Because they've already cashed the check and spent billions of dollars of your tax money on this dangerous and flawed technology, so in their eyes this is going to happen, regardless of good sense.

In the Netherlands they were forced to offer freedom of choice:http://vorige.nrc.nl/international/article2207260.ece/Smart_energy_meter_will_not_be_compulsory

OGE should respect their customers wishes to opt out.

jn1780
02-27-2011, 12:49 PM
Their not using "meter guys" anymore in neighborhoods with smart meters so they will just make sure and overestimate how much electricity you use. There is really no way you can win unless you can remove yourself from the grid.

Double Edge
02-27-2011, 01:32 PM
I'm going to try. That you are incredulous to even the possibility is simply disturbing.
I understand why people feel this way, but we should ask ourselves why we ascribe such invincibility to corporations like OGE. Apathy is not a good argument. I bet you didn't have a problem with asbestos either.

People all over the country are locking down their meters and securing their backyards. OGE has contracted a company called Corix to do the installs. They drive small white trucks and are not licensed electricians.

The Electrical Licensing Act does not apply to utilities. There is no reason for any utility to have people licensed under laws that do not apply. I'd bet most of the employees of all the utilities and their subcontractors in the state are not licensed electricians.




No, sidburgess, Thunder is not kidding. Despite what you say we do have a right to not have unsafe products forced upon our homes and families.

These "smart" meters aren't even UL listed !

Reference to UL listing here:http://stopsmartmeters.org/?p=564

Can they? So we should all just lie down prostrate before our power providing Overlords? No thanks. To me that's Un-American. And I will continue using electricity, as long as it is delivered in a safe and responsible manner.

OGE desperately wants to keep the rollout of these smart meters as quiet as possible in light of the worldwide outrage and problems associated with them.

They have press releases about the program on their own website and have their partnerships outlined on the internet on SilverSprings website. Also have answered to news reporters and had this heard at the Corporation Commission.



They know that once this is put in place it will be very hard to go back. Even if you experience higher bills or health problems from it. They don't care. Because they've already cashed the check and spent billions of dollars of your tax money on this dangerous and flawed technology, so in their eyes this is going to happen, regardless of good sense.

In the Netherlands they were forced to offer freedom of choice:http://vorige.nrc.nl/international/article2207260.ece/Smart_energy_meter_will_not_be_compulsory

OGE should respect their customers wishes to opt out.

You know the Corporation Commission has approved every step of this program? Been to any hearings on it? Have you voiced your opinion to them? You are coming to the party pretty late if not.

Double Edge
02-27-2011, 02:00 PM
You made me look. I don't have a smart meter yet.

Best I can tell the old GE I-70-S that's been in there for a few decades isn't UL listed either. There's no label on the front and it's not noted on any of the literature I can find online.

However, both of them, my current meter (punny!) and the smart meter on Silver Springs site, say they meet ANSI standards for electrical meters. Again, the utilities frequently are governed by and operate with a different set of rules and this area may be one of them.

windowphobe
02-27-2011, 04:05 PM
I have one. So far as I can tell, the effect has been exactly this: once a week, OG&E sends me a Web link to the current meter data. Doesn't affect anything else in the house, including the cordless phones, the Wi-Fi, or any of the other Major Risk Factors that will guarantee I will die.

What? I'm going to die anyway? Well, the heck with that, then.

Kerry
03-01-2011, 06:30 AM
I am not a fan of the smart meters either, but not because I am afraid of microwave radiation. I just don't like the electric company having that much info about me and then billing me extra for certain hourse of the day. They sure don't give me a discount for low demand hours. To me it is no different then having to tell the guy at the gas station what time of day I drive and then having him adjust the price accordingly.

As for getting off the grid - Toshiba has a system that will allow an entire subdivision to do just that. It is called the 4s but we will see if it ever makes it to the US marketplace. Perhaps it could be used to power the OKC Streetcar.

http://www.fastcompany.com/1594671/bill-gates-goes-nuclear-with-toshiba-tie-up



Toshiba has been working on its own mini nuclear reactors with a 30-year shelf life, making it the perfect partner for the software magnate-turned-philanthropist. Its 4S (http://infotech.indiatimes.com/news/software-services/Bill-Gates-Toshiba-to-build-nuclear-reactor/articleshow/5714511.cms) model (Super-Safe, Small and Simple) is expected to get U.S. approval this year, and Toshiba is hoping to start production by 2014.

Double Edge
03-01-2011, 07:18 AM
Demand billing isn't going to happen for residential customers without approval from the Corporation Commission. Maybe that will happen and maybe it won't. AFAIK, they haven't asked for it.

I'm all for making people more informed of their use and for the ones who drive the costs of increasing production paying for it, including those who just want to be blindly ignorant and consume at will.

Roadhawg
03-01-2011, 07:47 AM
So far I like my smart meter but it seems some folks in Atlanta don't think much about their water smart meeters.
http://www.cnn.com/video/#/video/us/2011/03/01/dnt.phillips.high.water.bills.cnn?hpt=Mid

blangtang
03-03-2011, 10:34 PM
I looked at myoge.com and it says my rate is something like 10 cents/kwh, but it never changes, everytime i look!! I thought the whole point of having the "smart" meter was to inform the end user of times of low cost electricity and for end users to change behavior accordingly. I musta been wrong!

ljbab728
03-03-2011, 10:40 PM
I looked at myoge.com and it says my rate is something like 10 cents/kwh, but it never changes, everytime i look!! I thought the whole point of having the "smart" meter was to inform the end user of times of low cost electricity and for end users to change behavior accordingly. I musta been wrong!

Maybe I'm not understanding. Are you saying that the rate changes depending on when you use electricity? I've never heard that before.

blangtang
03-03-2011, 11:39 PM
the rate changes depending on when you use electricity?

That was my impression of a "smart meter". I mustave been wrong!

ljbab728
03-04-2011, 12:06 AM
I haven't followed this closely but my understanding is that it just gives us better and more accurated information about our personal energy consumption which enables us to make better choices about how we use it. I have just recently started receiving a weekly email from OG&E telling me what my costs were for that week and how I compare to norms and ideals. It really seems useful.

ChevyMan
03-04-2011, 08:23 AM
My main concern is the lack of privacy that is associated with the smart meter. The meter has the ability to record and report my electrical usage every 15 minutes. This means OGE can tell when I'm in town and when I'm out of town. The can also tell when I wake up and turn on the oven, TV and coffee pot in the morning. When I turn off the lights and go to bed OGE will know. It only bothers me only a little that OGE will know all of this. My concern is who they will share the information with down the road. Will hackers be able to tell what days I work out of town? Will lawyers be able to subpoena my OGE records to see when I'm in my house?

All of the privacy concerns that we have about internet will now apply to all of the information that the OGE gathers about our electrical usage. Think of it as "electricity cookies" that are just like internet cookies.

I do like to see what my daily kilowatt usage is, but overall I'm not a fan of the smartmeter.

BBatesokc
03-04-2011, 09:26 AM
I find it insane that adults even need a smart meter to tell them not to run the air conditioner all day, turn off unused lights, if its plugged in its drawing electricity, etc.

jn1780
03-04-2011, 02:09 PM
I find it insane that adults even need a smart meter to tell them not to run the air conditioner all day, turn off unused lights, if its plugged in its drawing electricity, etc.

It would be interesting to know specifically how many kilowatts we use a day or season. Are people going to change their habits because of it? Probably not. People who are trying to conserve energy already have programmable thermostats, energy efficient appliances, and turn off their lights when not in the room.

The biggest benefit I see is that it lets utility companies fine tune their grid a little bit better. They may be able to turn off a turbine or two at 6:56 A.M. instead of 7:00 A.M. It also removes the "meter is running fast" argument.

windowphobe
03-04-2011, 06:32 PM
OG&E doesn't have a peak-hour tariff: the current rates vary with usage and with season, but not with the time of day.

HewenttoJared
03-05-2011, 05:59 AM
OG&E doesn't have a peak-hour tariff: the current rates vary with usage and with season, but not with the time of day.

Yea that's odd. To me the hourly cost changes are the actual efficiency part of owning a smart meter.

ChevyMan
03-05-2011, 08:43 AM
OG&E doesn't have a peak-hour tariff: the current rates vary with usage and with season, but not with the time of day.

I assume that they will have variable pricing later. The meter can do, so I don't see why OGE wouldn't use that capability later.

Double Edge
03-05-2011, 09:23 AM
They will have to make a convincing case for it with the corporation commission first.

Joe Daddy
03-05-2011, 10:24 AM
It sounds to me like a veiled way to increase rates by charging you more to run your AC at the time of day where solar heat infiltration is greatest, and therefore the greatest need for running your AC.

Anybody else get that impression or am I missing something here?

HewenttoJared
03-05-2011, 10:44 AM
It sounds to me like a veiled way to increase rates by charging you more to run your AC at the time of day where solar heat infiltration is greatest, and therefore the greatest need for running your AC.

Anybody else get that impression or am I missing something here?

That electricity costs more to produce depending on demand.

Joe Daddy
03-05-2011, 11:02 AM
I've learned a little about energy usage and thermodynamics over the years as it pertains to heat gain and heat loss of structures. Does OG&E think it will save energy by forcing people to turn their AC units off during peak hours? That will only cause people to run their AC units 2-3 or more times longer after peak hours to remove the BTU's (British Thermal Units) of heat from their homes that built up while they were shut down. Refrigeration is the process of removing heat from a place where it is not wanted, and moving it where it is less objectionable, ie: from indoors to outdoors. AC is simply high temperature refrigeration.

If you allow heat to build up in your home during peak hours, you will spend more in the long run removing that heat. One "ton" of refrigeration = 12,000 BTU's per hour, or 200 BTU's per minute. To put that into perspective, a human being generates 350-400 BTUH at rest. If one human generates 350 BTUH, just imagine how many BTUH the sun puts into your home through solar heat gain, and the infiltration from the outdoor ambient temperature when it's 100 degrees outside. Heat flows naturally from hot to cold, so that 100 degree ambient will be infiltrating your 78 degree home rapidly while your AC system is off. Add in the BTUH from cooking, televisions, computers and other electrical appliances and you get a massive sensible and latent heat gain.

Shutting down AC during peak hours will not result in any conservation of energy in the long run, and may well increase overall usage.

I sure hope someone at the Public Service Commission is knowledgeable in this area.

HewenttoJared
03-05-2011, 11:11 AM
Peak hours require them to turn on more generators, which they have to shut down during slow times. The existence of peak hours adds cost to all the other hours so that cost is translated onto the hours that require the extra electricity.

Joe Daddy
03-05-2011, 11:31 AM
Peak hours require them to turn on more generators, which they have to shut down during slow times. The existence of peak hours adds cost to all the other hours so that cost is translated onto the hours that require the extra electricity.

I knew all that already, HWTJ. I believe there are better ways of accomplishing energy savings. Forced shut down of AC during peak hours, only to run it 3 times longer during off-peak saves zero in the long run.



Good point Joe. That seems like a lot of work though and I wonder if it will simply cause people to just live with a little less AC. We all know people who like to keep their house like a refrigerator.

Although, I suspect homes may not necessarily be the largest 'culprits'. I suspect commercial or industrial customers will pick up the biggest part of the bill and subsequently will try the hardest to reduce consumption.

Commercial users running mega tonnage chilled water refrigeration machines (chillers) are the greatest consumers of power. All those skyscrapers downtown run chillers, condenser water pumps, chilled water pumps, high-speed, high-velocity air handler fans, cooling tower fans and exhaust and ventilation fans to achieve the fresh air exchanges required. There's where massive savings can be achieved with comprehensive energy audits.

But I'm afraid OG&E will go after the easy target of raising homeowner rates instead when thse "smart meters" are deployed.

Double Edge
03-05-2011, 01:00 PM
All those potential future uses aside, some benefits immediately include automated use reporting versus using human meter readers physically checking every meter every month; automated reporting of outages; ability to turn power off and on remotely rather than sending trucks out.

Double Edge
03-05-2011, 01:04 PM
I knew all that already, HWTJ. I believe there are better ways of accomplishing energy savings. Forced shut down of AC during peak hours, only to run it 3 times longer during off-peak saves zero in the long run.




Commercial users running mega tonnage chilled water refrigeration machines (chillers) are the greatest consumers of power. All those skyscrapers downtown run chillers, condenser water pumps, chilled water pumps, high-speed, high-velocity air handler fans, cooling tower fans and exhaust and ventilation fans to achieve the fresh air exchanges required. There's where massive savings can be achieved with comprehensive energy audits.

But I'm afraid OG&E will go after the easy target of raising homeowner rates instead when thse "smart meters" are deployed.

Most commercial buildings are on demand meters now. IMO there's not much reason for OGE to go after residential customers. But if they can make a case that residential customers cause problems of demand, adding expensive generating equipment to keep up, etc. do you not think the people who cause those problems should have to pay for them? If not, who should? Again. OGE can't do these things on a whim or on the idea it's going to be a windfall profit, they have to sell any rate changes to the CC first.

HewenttoJared
03-05-2011, 01:17 PM
I knew all that already, HWTJ. I believe there are better ways of accomplishing energy savings. Forced shut down of AC during peak hours, only to run it 3 times longer during off-peak saves zero in the long run.

It's not about AC. AC will be used when it is needed. It's about moving the things you can to a time when they don't overlap with the AC usage and spike the drain so high that you have to build extra plants.

Joe Daddy
03-05-2011, 01:20 PM
Most commercial buildings are on demand meters now. IMO there's not much reason for OGE to go after residential customers. But if they can make a case that residential customers cause problems of demand, adding expensive generating equipment to keep up, etc. do you not think the people who cause those problems should have to pay for them? If not, who should? Again. OGE can't do these things on a whim or on the idea it's going to be a windfall profit, they have to sell any rate changes to the CC first.

I don't disagree that energy hogs should pay. I recall one guy on here a while back that bragged about keeping his house at 68 degrees in the summer. How do you sort out people like that from a reasonable user that maintains indoor air temps from 75-78 degrees?

Further, how many people maintain their AC systems? Your condensing unit (the part that sits outside) should be disassembled and cleaned annually. I wonder how many folks here get that done? Dirty condensers waste millions of watts of energy each year. And squirting it off with your garden hose while you're watering the flowers won't cut it.

Maybe some kind of rate rebate system would work. I know other electrical service providers like the Southern Company have programs where consumers can get reduced rates for reducing usage voluntarily.

But the first time you get a $1,200 Smart Meter bill might be quite an eye opener to the downside of these things. I'm not saying that will automatically happen, but it has in the past in other states, and the power company won't likely admit to any errors.

Joe Daddy
03-05-2011, 01:25 PM
It's not about AC. AC will be used when it is needed. It's about moving the things you can to a time when they don't overlap with the AC usage and spike the drain so high that you have to build extra plants.

What else is left besides electric ovens, cooktops and water heaters? Here in the land of natural gas, I'd bet most folks have gas water heaters and cook tops. How often to you bake in the afternoons in summertime?

OG&E should be required to get homeowner consent to put one of these on your house. Couple that with an incentive to accept it and I'll get on board with it. As of right now, I don't have enough information as to how OG&E intends to deploy these Smart Meters, and their intentions as to their useage.

HewenttoJared
03-05-2011, 05:04 PM
The free market is incapable of solving the atmospheric disruption problem. E solutions are going to be huge, invasive and hated by many. But the good news is that the sooner we get started the less invasive and draconian the restrictions will be further down the line.

bluedogok
03-05-2011, 06:08 PM
It's not about AC. AC will be used when it is needed. It's about moving the things you can to a time when they don't overlap with the AC usage and spike the drain so high that you have to build extra plants.
Yes and no.....Austin Energy (municipal utility) has a program where they will provide you with a "free thermostat" that retains the ability to be cycled off by the utility at peak demand periods. This is just the beginning of exercise more control over their customers. In Austin, since it is a municipal utility we do not have a choice of energy providers although a rep from outside of Austin has introduced a bill to eliminate the municipal utility exception.

I am very hot natured, in the winter the heat is hardly ever on and our gas/electric bills reflect that. No "free thermostat" for me, I will keep control of my own A/C thank you.

Austin Energy - Free Thermostats (http://www.austinenergy.com/Energy%20Efficiency/Programs/Power%20Partner/index.htm)

Joe Daddy
03-05-2011, 06:19 PM
Yes and no.....Austin Energy (municipal utility) has a program where they will provide you with a "free thermostat" that retains the ability to be cycled off by the utility at peak demand periods. This is just the beginning of exercise more control over their customers. In Austin, since it is a municipal utility we do not have a choice of energy providers although a rep from outside of Austin has introduced a bill to eliminate the municipal utility exception.

I am very hot natured, in the winter the heat is hardly ever on and our gas/electric bills reflect that. No "free thermostat" for me, I will keep control of my own A/C thank you.

Austin Energy - Free Thermostats (http://www.austinenergy.com/Energy%20Efficiency/Programs/Power%20Partner/index.htm)

They have a similar product for electric water heaters in other states. The thermostat is an interesting concept. Other utilities have a radio controlled disconnect at the condenser disconnect.

Kinda funny how they are marketing it as a "free" thermostat, lol. Many utilities rebate $10-$25 off your monthly bill when they activate it. Looks like Austin is trying to bamboozle customers with that "free" t-stat.

HewenttoJared
03-05-2011, 06:35 PM
Yes and no.....Austin Energy (municipal utility) has a program where they will provide you with a "free thermostat" that retains the ability to be cycled off by the utility at peak demand periods. This is just the beginning of exercise more control over their customers. In Austin, since it is a municipal utility we do not have a choice of energy providers although a rep from outside of Austin has introduced a bill to eliminate the municipal utility exception.

I am very hot natured, in the winter the heat is hardly ever on and our gas/electric bills reflect that. No "free thermostat" for me, I will keep control of my own A/C thank you.

Austin Energy - Free Thermostats (http://www.austinenergy.com/Energy%20Efficiency/Programs/Power%20Partner/index.htm)

That's a separate program from what I was talking about.

LarryQ
12-02-2011, 05:49 AM
I also do not want a Smart Meter.
I just have not heard any explanations about what is going to be done with the information collected by these units.

1) How long is the data Kept?
2) Who has access to the data?
3) What steps had OGE taken to secure this information?
4) Can the Police or other law enforcement agencies access this data?
5) Is a court order required (I.E. Wiretapping and surveillance)
6) Does this data violate the 5th amendment against self-incrimination if used to prosecute?
7) What are the security protocols for the wireless communications and how often are the encryption keys rotated?

And others...

The main problem I have is that OGE just "Laughs It Off" and won't even address these issues.

I ended up sending a certified letter to OGE explaining all my concerns and instructing them that I do not consent to the installation of a smart meter on my residence.

I got a form letter extolling the virtues of the smart meter in return, but not a single concern I expressed was addressed.

I placed multiple placards on my existing meter, and installed a locking device to secure the meter to my home.

Yesterday I came home to find that my power had been interrupted sometime in the day.
I went out and found my locking device cut off, placards removed and gone, and a smart meter hanging on my home.

So now I am left with Theft of personal property, vandalism, and destruction of personal property.

I have 2 computers and a server that now will not boot as they were corrupted when the power was cut to install the smart meter.

I will be contacting OGE today, and if I get no satisfaction, I will have a police report filed.

I have before and after photos, a copy of my letter to OGE, the certified mail reciept, the form letter back, the destroyed locking device..ect..ect.....

There is just something fishy about OGE not even wanting to address the concerns of their customers.

LarryQ

SoonerDave
12-06-2011, 01:47 PM
A few points...

* ONG has deployed their own equivalent of the "smart meter" for some time, and it started a long time ago. Their primary objective was to get rid of the meter reader. In effect, their "smart meter" amounts to a glorified cell phone that transmits meter data to a relay device and on to the billing system.

* The real objective of smart meters, aligned with the ability of utility companies gouging the individual customer relentlessly, is the ability to implement structured, rolling blackouts to various parts of the city to "equalize" distribution. Here in Oklahoma, we've got pretty darned reliable power, so this notion is fairly alien to us.

* Utilities aren't about to deploy anything beneficial to the *customer*, only if it is able to pad its own pockets. Rest assured that's the underlying motivation for any utility to deploy any such technology.

* Smart Meters are part of the broader ecohysterics madness that is infecting every aspect of our lives, and has an underlying goal of controlling, limiting, or rationing electricity in years to come. The notion isn't that we can't produce the electricity - its that the ecohysterics about its production being inherently evil are being manifest as public policy right down to our coffee pots.

CuatrodeMayo
12-06-2011, 10:02 PM
http://i620.photobucket.com/albums/tt285/mrbellows6969/tinfoil-hat-2.jpg

Thunder
12-06-2011, 10:16 PM
I also do not want a Smart Meter.
I just have not heard any explanations about what is going to be done with the information collected by these units.

1) How long is the data Kept?
2) Who has access to the data?
3) What steps had OGE taken to secure this information?
4) Can the Police or other law enforcement agencies access this data?
5) Is a court order required (I.E. Wiretapping and surveillance)
6) Does this data violate the 5th amendment against self-incrimination if used to prosecute?
7) What are the security protocols for the wireless communications and how often are the encryption keys rotated?

And others...

The main problem I have is that OGE just "Laughs It Off" and won't even address these issues.

I ended up sending a certified letter to OGE explaining all my concerns and instructing them that I do not consent to the installation of a smart meter on my residence.

I got a form letter extolling the virtues of the smart meter in return, but not a single concern I expressed was addressed.

I placed multiple placards on my existing meter, and installed a locking device to secure the meter to my home.

Yesterday I came home to find that my power had been interrupted sometime in the day.
I went out and found my locking device cut off, placards removed and gone, and a smart meter hanging on my home.

So now I am left with Theft of personal property, vandalism, and destruction of personal property.

I have 2 computers and a server that now will not boot as they were corrupted when the power was cut to install the smart meter.

I will be contacting OGE today, and if I get no satisfaction, I will have a police report filed.

I have before and after photos, a copy of my letter to OGE, the certified mail reciept, the form letter back, the destroyed locking device..ect..ect.....

There is just something fishy about OGE not even wanting to address the concerns of their customers.

LarryQ

You have a limited case against OG&E and judgement should award you some money. However, I think the law allows OG&E to invade your property and replace the meters, because the meters is property of OG&E. Did they send advanced notice of their planned arrival to replace the meters? If not, then that is OG&E's fault. As for the lock that you bought on your own and locked the meters to the house, did it obstruct OG&E's capability to view and/or open the meters box? Can you provide a picture of how you locked it? I think that by OG&E breaking the lock itself is a violation...which was done without a warrant and your presence...by force. You could be compensated for the cost of the lock. Will you be able to provide hardcore evidence that OG&E's action resulted in your computers being doomed beyond repair? Honestly, that will be hard to prove, because OG&E can argue that your computers malfunctioned before or after their visit. Also, have your computers ever gone this route of being damaged during past power flickers and outages? Hard to believe...personally, I believe its impossible...for loss of electricity to severely damage computers. Like I said, you have a case against OG&E, but they will ultimately win with their legal rights to demand their own customers use it or go elsewhere. At least, you will be compensated for some things. As for their failure to respond and address your concerns is a huge No-No, so the judge will strike OG&E down on that. Good luck and hope all goes well.

SoonerDave
12-07-2011, 07:33 AM
Here are a few things to understand:

* Every piece of residential property has what's called a "utility easement" that conveys an implicit right to access on the part of properly sanctioned utilities to access and install equipment on your property pursuant to the utility they provide. You don't have a right of prior notification or consent. Like it or not, it's their easement and their meter.

* The utility owns everything in conjunction with the service they provide up to what's called the "demarcation point," which is a $10 word for the point at which the service enters your house and you become responsible for it thereafter.

* You cannot damage or obstruct access to the property owned by the utility, and I believe there is an implicit right for the utility to use "reasonable measures" to overcome any obstacles that inhibit their ability to access the property or materials they own. Obstructing access is, if I recall correctly, effectively considered damaging it, so taking tinsnips to a padlock is not unreasonable or illegal.

Do I like all the subtleties these kinds of rules imply? Not necessarily, but they exist nonetheless. I'm not crazy about smartmeters, either, but I'm not in a position to pull up stakes and move to a cave in the mountains, nor put up a windmill, n or deploy solar panels, so at this point my alternatives are limited. Does this mean the utility has me by the proverbial short-hairs? I guess so.

The concerns about IR and all that are pointless, because the absence/presence of one meter on your house matters not one whit in comparison to the dozens of houses around you that DO have the meter and are happily transmitting usage data wirelessly to whatever nameless, faceless collection point is using it.

I personally think more folks should be much more concerned about how their signature is being captured at most retail outlets on electronic signature capture devices, because it could be used for far more nefarious purposes, but I digress...

Jim Kyle
12-07-2011, 10:31 AM
Hard to believe...personally, I believe its impossible...for loss of electricity to severely damage computers.Just a single point: it's definitely possible, and happens fairly often, although not nearly so frequently as it did some 20 years ago. Loss of power at certain critical points during the system's operation can scramble the data on disk files, making it impossible to access that stored data again. With older equipment, power loss could cause a "head crash" which physically destroys the disk surface and the read-write head that normally flies a few millionths of an inch above that surface. It's the equivalent of gouging a hunk out of the disk itself. I once heard such a crash; the shriek of metal on metal drowned out normal office noise throughout an entire floor of the building.

That said, I seriously doubt that the OP's equipment suffered such physical damage. It's possible that he lost all of his files. What kind of dollar value can you put on all the files and records of one's business? Can he prove that the loss was not due to his own negligence, in failing to have full and accurate backup copies in an off-site location? Can he outlast a utility company's ability to keep things tied up in court indefinitely?

As for fears of RF from the meters, anyone suffering such fear should also rip all electrical wiring out of the walls, and move at least half a mile from the nearest power line, to get away from the invisible AC fields that surround all such wiring. I've measured those fields in my own home, which is an ordinary three-bedroom residence with no exotic additions, at approximately 150 volts in the middle of the room. They're "static" fields, with no current flow, and cause no detectable damage to living tissue. In fact, one can correlate (if so inclined) the existence of such fields almost everywhere in the USA with the increase in life expectancy over the past century!

As for the OP's problem, I hope he has more money for lawyers than does OG&E. He's gonna need it.

venture
12-07-2011, 01:45 PM
The UPS for my main system that I use went out a few months back and haven't had the chance to get a new one. Especially when I need to get a 1500VA one, they tend to get a bit pricey. Norman's power grid isn't the best and during high winds we can get power flickers that restart all the electronics. Never had an issue with damage or lost data. If data is really that important, most computers can be handled by a 550-650VA UPS, if not lower. Looking at $30-70 to spend to get one. I guess it depends how much your data is worth you.

Jim Kyle
12-07-2011, 04:21 PM
Check with "Batteries Plus" to see if a replacement battery for it will do the trick. Most UPS batteries last only 3 to 4 years before they quit holding a usable charge. I have at least five of the smaller UPS units scattered around the house protecting computers, a fancy sewing machine, and other electronic gear, and a couple of years ago I took almost the whole bunch to Batteries Plus which at the time was near NW 57 and May in OKC, just around the corner from Best Buy (they've since moved to NW 63 and May, and there's another location on the south side that's probably more convenient to you). They opened them up, checked the batteries, and replaced all of them at a total cost less than it would have cost me to replace two of the five. It's about time to take the ones that are still in service back for another visit...

I prefer using a number of different units, one per major device, to having a single huge unit. This avoids having a single point of possible failure; if the most important one dies, I can move in a temporary replacement while getting the failed unit fixed, and thus move the risk to a less important device...

LarryQ
12-08-2011, 06:04 AM
The computers were repaired, and as suggested the OS's became corrupt when power was lost.
The server and workstation are both on battery backups, so the amount of time between the time they pulled the meter and turned on the new meter exceeded the battery capacity. (And due to the database work being done auto shutdown software doesn't shut down gracefully enough to prevent corruption...I finally gave up using it.)

I had to spend @ 6 hours repairing the OS installs.
(BTW I am an I.T Professional)

As for the lock, it did not impede the reading of the old meter in any way.

As I stated, RF is not my concern, It is the complete lack of transparency from OG&E.

My questions stand about the data.

If OG&E's sole concern is to make (Or save) $$$$, what is their motivation in helping people use LESS of their product?

Is it just me, or doesn't this sound counter intuitive.


Where do we finally draw the line on our Privacy?

If OG&E's motivation is only $$...will they sell this data?
More importantly, what is to prevent them from doing so?

I don't think it's time for tin foil hats. (Yet )

In my profession, I deal with highly sensitive information all the time.
I routinely have to sign non-disclosure agreements.
I face huge fines and personal liability should I ever violate these non-disclosure agreements.

Why isn't OG&E held to the same or even higher standards?

Plainly the answer is that until we demand it, it will not happen!

Larry

SoonerDave
12-08-2011, 06:55 AM
Their motivation for the smartgrid is twofold: One, the government, backed by the ecohysterics crowd, is pushing it, but just as important, OGE doesn't care if you use less of their product provided they can manufacture a false reason to charge you double or triple the rate for the same electrons merely because you use them at 5pm rather than 5am, and try to convince you that its all your fault for not making an "informed decision." I liken it to making an "informed choice" between being robbed at gunpoint or knifepoint.

SoonerDave
12-08-2011, 07:21 AM
LarryQ, if you're interested, you can google quite a bit of info about SmartMeters and privacy issues via the terms PGE and smartmeter. I read a few of the pages, and frankly it gets a bit hysterical to me (especially when I get to the part about the computer screens causing dermatitis), but in the midst of it there is some pretty extensive discussion about what California residents have faced with SmartMeters, mandatory installation, smartgrids, and such.

Mind you, its heavily anti-utility/anti PGE, so its not at all a "neutral" site, and some of the rants border on the absurd IMHO, so it makes me very cautious of the rest of their material, but you still might find it interesting.

Jim Kyle
12-08-2011, 09:41 AM
I'm also quite deeply involved with confidential databases, including medical practice management and financial information. If absolutely uninterruptible power is necessary, then you cannot depend on a commercial utility to provide it. The only solution is to install your own power generators and depend on them. At Cape Canaveral, for example, they did depend on the commercial utility as their primary supplier, but they also had huge motor-generators that normally spun gigantic concrete flywheels. If the commercial power vanished for any reason, the flywheels' inertia kept the generator going and immediately started the attached diesel engines. The changeover happened within a single cycle of the AC feed and caused no problems at all to sensitive equipment.

That's a bit of overkill for any civilian project, but it illustrates what's necessary when you want to get to true 100.000% reliability.

Perhaps your battery backups were underpowered for the load. Most of them are rated for more than 20 minutes continued operation when not overloaded, but even slight overload can reduce this to less than five minutes. Another factor might be old batteries. When data is of such great importance, a good -- and tested -- disaster recovery plan is an absolute necessity. For two workstations plus a server, I'd want a minimum of 1500 VA rating and actually would put a 500 VA unit on each separate workstation as well. note, too, that the batteries must be replaced every 36 months or so at the outside.

EDIT: I agree with you on the privacy issues, but I've never achieved anything but frustration by attempting to deal with any utility head-on. When I had similar problems with a telephone line, and the normal SBC routes got nowhere at all, I found that a single call to the right person at the Corporation Commission got immediate results -- and no more hassle from the utility! There's an old Navy saying about waste products getting messier as they roll downhill... Regulatory agencies can be our best defense against corporate arrogance, if employed carefully.

stick47
01-05-2012, 08:03 AM
Now that OG&E has our Smartmeter on the "myogepower" network I've been following my electrical use online and was happy to see that my bill for Dec would be lower than I expected. Then the bill arrived today. It was $70 higher than what was reported on the company's "myogepower" website. Truthfully, the total was in line with my expectations but their estimate being off by 65% is ridiculous. Are the numbers on that website always that far off the actual bill? I can see where a low income person might get into a financial bind if they took the website bill estimate to heart and spent money elsewhere thinking they had their OGE bill covered.

stick47
01-05-2012, 02:37 PM
Wonder why this post didn't cycle to the top?

Edit: OK it did get there this time.