Roland Tague, attorney for First Group America, the minority ownership of downtown's Union Bus Station, promised they will not seek demolition of the building when operations move to JRS Travel Center at 1901 E Reno Ave. later this year.

Read more: http://newsok.com/other-oklahoma-city-council-business/article/3573009#ixzz1O0G5qiSl

Any news about the fate of these two iconic buildings? I know that the bus station closes in the fall and have heard grumblings that it may be torn down or perhaps repurposed as a restaurant or something (fingers crossed). Any updates other than that?

It will simply kill me if they bulldoze Union Station. Another of our icons. Like you, I am curious about the latest news.

lrostochil, I've merged your thread with a much longer one that discusses all the properties on that block.

It will simply kill me if they bulldoze Union Station. Another of our icons. Like you, I am curious about the latest news.

Would make an awesome cafe, or better yet, bookstore/coffee shop.

Would make an awesome cafe, or better yet, bookstore/coffee shop.

Bookstores don't seem to be doing so well right now, so maybe not.

While that certainly may be the case with the big box type, what about a smaller mom & pop type that would be more size appropriate. I don't know ANYTHING about Full Circle but maybe something like that???

While that certainly may be the case with the big box type, what about a smaller mom & pop type that would be more size appropriate. I don't know ANYTHING about Full Circle but maybe something like that???

I'm not saying that wouldn't be nice, I"m just not sure it would be the most feasible and sustainable use of the location.

Has anyone done a needs analysis on services and products for downtown? Everyone here tends to focus on what would look cute in the building, but fail to address whether there is a fundamental demand for the product/service? Is there a current or pent up demand for book buying in OKC downtown? How about more restaurants? There is methodology for assessing such needs. It isn't just about what would fit in a certain building.

Has anyone done a needs analysis on services and products for downtown? Everyone here tends to focus on what would look cute in the building, but fail to address whether there is a fundamental demand for the product/service? Is there a current or pent up demand for book buying in OKC downtown? How about more restaurants? There is methodology for assessing such needs. It isn't just about what would fit in a certain building.

Do you know how companies who do these studies go about finding out if there is demand? One of the ways the do it is looking at social networks sites to see what local residents are asking for. OKCTalk is a social network site. If someone thinks a book store might do well there, who knows, it just might. Personally, I don't think there are enough people living in the area to support a book store and the parking lot isn't big enough to rely on drive-up traffic. But that is just me.

There are professional quantitative marketing methods to do this. It involves analysis using buying habits, demographics, growth trends, competition, etc., as well as scientific sampling. Though it is not perfect, it significantly increases the odds of success. It is still hypothetical, so if someone enters the market with a vastly superior product, it can still defy the odds. On a macro level, this is something the chamber should do so that it can give direction as to the types of products and services, and in what quantities, should be encouraged to locate downtown to encourage/satisfy current and anticipated demand. This can help lead development and doesn't have to just follow it.

there are professional quantitative marketing methods to do this. It involves analysis using buying habits, demographics, growth trends, competition, etc., as well as scientific sampling. Though it is not perfect, it significantly increases the odds of success. It is still hypothetical, so if someone enters the market with a vastly superior product, it can still defy the odds. On a macro level, this is something the chamber should do so that it can give direction as to the types of products and services, and in what quantities, should be encouraged to locate downtown to encourage/satisfy current and anticipated demand. This can help lead development and doesn't have to just follow it.

this

The person making the comment wasn't preparing a business plan, he was simply making a comment that he thought a bookstore would be nice to have there. Why can't a person just express that opinion and let it go at that? Although, for all we know the individual might be preparing a business plan and does want to put a bookstore there and made the comment to see what the local reaction would be.

Instead of a bookstore at that location maybe a combo bookstore/coffee house might do well in DD. They probably couldn't be a full service bookstore but if the specialized in politics, world history, biographies, art, architecture, business, poetry, and urban development/history (stuff that would appeal to an urban dweller) they might could make a go of it. Of course, I don't have $50,000 worth of research backing that up.

The person making the comment wasn't preparing a business plan, he was simply making a comment that he thought a bookstore would be nice to have there. Why can't a person just express that opinion and let it go at that? Although, for all we know the individual might be preparing a business plan and does want to put a bookstore there and made the comment to see what the local reaction would be.

Instead of a bookstore at that location maybe a combo bookstore/coffee house might do well in DD. They probably couldn't be a full service bookstore but if the specialized in politics, world history, biographies, art, architecture, business, poetry, and urban development/history (stuff that would appeal to an urban dweller) they might could make a go of it. Of course, I don't have $50,000 worth of research backing that up.

And not spending the $50,000 is the common way inexperienced people do it. And that is why most new start-ups fail and why we have so many chain businesses who know how to access the information.

I wasn't criticizing the suggestion, it is just that part of our perspective on development should be to do what is necessary to insure long term success of the businesses we start. Failure helps no one. Ideas of what to put where are not simply of what would look cute in a particular building or spot.

A high percentage of new businesses fail for precisely this reason....failure to understand the market. A cute idea doesn't automatically equal success. Understanding the market and what it requires will lead to sustaining business success. The last thing the emerging core needs would be a high degree of failures.

Why can't a person just express that opinion and let it go at that?
Because this is OKC Talk and that never happens here. LOL

Probably because this is a discussion board and not just a bulletin board to post thoughts.

Some discussion:

Person X: I think a widget store would be cool on this corner.

Person Y: Did you do a business plan and get professional research for that idea.

Person X: No.

Person Y: Then you suck and don't know how business works.

Some discussion:

Person X: I think a widget store would be cool on this corner.

Person Y: Did you do a business plan and get professional research for that idea.

Person X: No.

Person Y: Then you suck and don't know how business works.

I think you're a little sensitive, Just the Facts. You often throw something onto a message board without much knowledge of the topic and then get all worked up when more informed people explain why you might want to consider some other ideas (e.g. see this thread, the Hideaway discussion on the Automobile Allley thread, or the Devon thread where you speculate that the crown of the Devon Tower will not look like the designs that have been public for the last couple years). Maybe it's time to look in the mirror.

Just to keep it real. The bookstore idea wasn't mine and I don't think it will work either.

If that bus station was closer to Film Row, I think that would definitely help its case. Either way, I bet someone is willing to invest their money in it more than, say, Stage Center.

Some discussion:

Person X: I think a widget store would be cool on this corner.

Person Y: Did you do a business plan and get professional research for that idea.

Person X: No.

Person Y: Then you suck and don't know how business works.

Pretty dramatic.

Do you come to this board to have your ego stroked or to have honest discussion about what would be good development, realistic and good for the city? If you just need affirmation, this kind of board probably isn't a good place to get it. LOL.

I truly believe that block will be used by Devon.. Nick is not going into the cafe business folks LOL. Anyway, In my opinion nothing is being planned for that block at this time.. I do think there will be some demo the first of next year.

xxxxxxx

Does anyone else see the whole block eventually being leveled?

does anyone else see the whole block eventually being leveled?

no

xxxxxxx

lol

Perhaps Steve knows... I heard from a reputable source that the building that burned on 7th is owned by Preftakes via a "shell" LLC. Maybe that was covered and I just missed it or the person is wrong.

Anyways, I agree that the perimeter of the building looks as though it can be salvaged. If it is owned by him, I hope that he had a good insurance policy on it and can use the proceeds to "build it out" again and save the historical "skin" that's left.

Hearing same rumor Jeff.

I saw the address and had to think what was around 7th and Robinson, and had trouble picturing it other than the old Central High which of course did not burn down. Haven't even seen it yet since I've been in Tulsa for a few days...

Perhaps Steve knows... I heard from a reputable source that the building that burned on 7th is owned by Preftakes via a "shell" LLC. Maybe that was covered and I just missed it or the person is wrong.

Anyways, I agree that the perimeter of the building looks as though it can be salvaged. If it is owned by him, I hope that he had a good insurance policy on it and can use the proceeds to "build it out" again and save the historical "skin" that's left.


I saw the address and had to think what was around 7th and Robinson, and had trouble picturing it other than the old Central High which of course did not burn down. Haven't even seen it yet since I've been in Tulsa for a few days...
Is this the building being discussed? Sorry, don't know how to post pics directly so here are the links, if the Mods want to add the pics to my post or someone else wants to post them separately, by all means do so...

Story here:
http://newsok.com/firefighters-battle-four-alarm-fire-in-downtown-oklahoma-city/article/3592498?custom_click=headlines_widget

"Before" pic from Steve's blog here:
http://blog.newsok.com/okccentral/2011/08/06/another-century-old-building-lost-forever/

"After", here
http://blog.newsok.com/okccentral/2011/08/09/whats-new/

I went down there to take a look at that building last week and I can tell you I was surprised by how big that thing is. I can honestly say I don't ever recall seeing it before. From those pictures, I was imagining that is was a few offices deep but it spans almost the entire block to the south. I am not sure it will be saved based on the shape it is in (and was previous to the fire).

Here's hoping that this OKC institution will land on it's feet.

http://newsok.com/johnnys-lunch-box-may-be-closing/multimedia/video/1239060549001

http://newsok.com/johnnys-lunch-box-may-be-next-landmark-to-close/article/3616978?custom_click=lead_story_title

If this happens, it will be terribly unfortunate. LB is a culinary institution. Nick Preftakes is not endearing any recent community sympathy either between not allowing a lease extension and tearing down that historic building facade on 7th.

I realize business is business, I just had hoped his purchase wasn't the foreboding sign that some thought it might be for the LB. Come over to Auto Alley. We will warmly welcome you.

If this happens, it will be terribly unfortunate. LB is a culinary institution. Nick Preftakes is not endearing any recent community sympathy either between not allowing a lease extension and tearing down that historic building facade on 7th.

I realize business is business, I just had hoped his purchase wasn't the foreboding sign that some thought it might be for the LB. Come over to Auto Alley. We will warmly welcome you.

I somewhat agree the the LB "was once" a culinary institute, however, the quality has steadily been on a decline for the past year or so. I used to eat there at least once a week, but would no longer step inside the front door, let alone eat there. I had lunch there back in September, immediately upon setting at a booth and prior to consuming my lunch, I quickly left and immediately called the health department.

I somewhat agree the the LB "was once" a culinary institute, however, the quality has steadily been on a decline for the past year or so. I used to eat there at least once a week, but would no longer step inside the front door, let alone eat there. I had lunch there back in September, immediately upon setting at a booth and prior to consuming my lunch, I quickly left and immediately called the health department.

That's pretty much exactly my story. Except your September was about a year and a half ago me and several guys at work.

Will NEVER step foot in there again!

I'll be a bit sad to see it go. I used to eat there on a semi-regular basis (3+ years ago), but it just doesn't fit my eating habits these days. Yeah, they have healthier choices, but, seriously who's going to choose those over GRAVY!

I really have my doubts if relocating it will prove to be financially viable. Hope they can come to an 11th hour resolution. I agree, the quality of the food is not that spectacular, but its a landmark and has a good base of customers. Sort of like Cattleman's in my opinion - overrated food but would hate to see it go.

I agree that it people don't go there for the quality of the food. The food is...well... it's pretty bad. But it is an institution. Too bad it can't be saved and a new owner found who values down home cooking with quality. It has appeared the current owner doesn't have a passion and is going through the motions.

We all saw this coming when Preftakes bought the building and those around it. It doesn't make economic sense for him to keep those two one-story buildings on top of expensive property and surrounded by others that no doubt will be redeveloped.

Since this isn't the original location for the Lunch Box, it shouldn't be that hard for them to move -- booths and all -- to another spot. Doubt that happens, though.

And I guess this means Preftakes has some plans in the works although he is famously tight-lipped. Wonder if he's made any progress on the old bus station.

I echo most everyone else's sentiments. I will be sad to see it go as a downtown institution, but will also admit I've only eaten there once, and I work within very easy walking distance. To put it succinctly, it's just not my cup of tea.

While I like some good "home cookin'" any day, I'm just big on meatloaf and mashed potatoes.

My first and only trip there was about 2 years ago.

It holds a soft place in my heart because my dad took me there when I was a kid probably 30 years ago or so, and I promise it's one of the things that made me love downtown. 15 years ago, I would have held it up as one of the best places in OKC to eat home-style cooking. I was a regular. These days I will agree that it is not exactly what it was then, but it would be a shame to see it go.

That said, I'm not dead-set that it should remain in that location. I think it's possible that a new location might breathe some life back into the place. Change is not always bad, and as has been stated here, the location has moved before.

If it lived on in an equally "downtown" setting, and the building in which it now resides were replaced BY A HIGHER AND BETTER USE, I can't say I would be too troubled by that. Hopefully someone finds a way to save the institution - including the elements which make it interesting - which in this case I believe is more important than the building it currently calls home.

Fortunately, there are now and soon will be more places downtown to leave an indelible mark when youngsters come to visit.

30 years ago, there wasn't much other than the Lunch Box.

We all saw this coming when Preftakes bought the building and those around it. It doesn't make economic sense for him to keep those two one-story buildings on top of expensive property and surrounded by others that no doubt will be redeveloped.

Since this isn't the original location for the Lunch Box, it shouldn't be that hard for them to move -- booths and all -- to another spot. Doubt that happens, though.

And I guess this means Preftakes has some plans in the works although he is famously tight-lipped. Wonder if he's made any progress on the old bus station.

I can point out hundreds of small buildings/famous bars & restaurants in NYC that are surrounded by large prestigious buildings. The property there is MUCH more valuable. If he tears it out, it is because he wants to, not needs to.

We all saw this coming when Preftakes bought the building and those around it. It doesn't make economic sense for him to keep those two one-story buildings on top of expensive property and surrounded by others that no doubt will be redeveloped.

Since this isn't the original location for the Lunch Box, it shouldn't be that hard for them to move -- booths and all -- to another spot. Doubt that happens, though.

And I guess this means Preftakes has some plans in the works although he is famously tight-lipped. Wonder if he's made any progress on the old bus station.

I'm willing to bet that he is moving forward with some of his plans.

Obviously I have no reason to actually believe that though since he's so "lip sealed" about it.

I can point out hundreds of small buildings/famous bars & restaurants in NYC that are surrounded by large prestigious buildings. The property there is MUCH more valuable. If he tears it out, it is because he wants to, not needs to.

My point was that the Lunch Box buildings were recently bought for a ton of money by an investor/developer and he didn't pay those large sums just to keep getting a small amount of rent from a lunch-only restaurant, as it would never justify the investment.

OK, now I'm getting mad. This to me is worse than the closing of the Nichols Hills Drug fountain!

Nothing, NOTHING, with historical or sentimental value is safe from the wrecking ball in OKC. We are destruction experts here. Find a landmark -- tear it down.

How much do you enjoy going to Beverly's in the new location? Exactly.

But which location of Beverly's is the "old" location? Are you suggesting the one at NW Expressway and Penn was somehow "classic," it wasn't even close to. It moved 4 or 5 times before it got to its current spot at NW Highway and Independence. There were a number of iterations throughout the years that were very much embraced by the community, but were "new" at the time. The fact that Beverly's is a shadow of itself probably has more to do with ownership and suburban location.

I think if the Lunchbox stayed in downtown, walkable to its current customers, and found a way to retain the best elements that make it special, the removal of the building it is currently in would not be a crime (again, provided it is replaced by a higher and better use). Now, if the business goes away completely it will be a truly sad day.

I would love to see an old diner concept like the lunch box move into the Bus Station space. To me, that space has the perfect elements for an old-fashioned counter diner. Decontamination jokes aside, the space SCREAMS restaurant to me. It's near good parking, in easy walking distance from what will be 2,000+ employees, perfectly located on a prime corner and has a wonderful historic feel about it.

You could even leave the bus station sign.

I think we're starting to get what's going on here (or maybe I'm just way behind everyone else).

Preftakes is set to demolish at least two of those buildings and build high-rise or mid-rise mixed use buildings there. He'll probably convert the auto hotel into housing of some sort and include retail and restaurants on the bottom level of the new buildings.

To be clear, I'm getting this from semi-crypitic comments on here, Steve's post on OKC Central, and rumors I'm hearing elsewhere, though neither Urbanized nor Steve have dealt in any rumors.

Check out Steve's latest post on OKC Central (http://blog.newsok.com/okccentral/2011/10/26/nick-preftakes-and-rumors/), where aggregates many of the facts regarding Preftakes he's reported over the past couple years. Clearly a picture is emerging. Steve doesn't deal in rumors, but I do.


Nick is a businessman. He’s not sentimental. He’s respected for knowing the difference between buying “retail” and “wholesale.” Usually Nick always buys “wholesale” – meaning he’s no fool in the real estate game. But when it came to buying out much of this block, truth be told, he’s definitely paid some retail prices. So when he first began his buying spree, which occurred at a time when Devon Energy’s plans for a headquarters across the street was not a secret, his explanation that he was buying the land as “an investment” was laughable. It was also a curious matter that Preftakes was seemingly quite able to sit on $14 million or more for four years and counting.

Just quickly: Preftakes will likely demolish a couple buildings on the property and build a high rise or mid rise (sorry don't know the exact definition of each) of mixed use. This will probably be done with the help of Devon. Restaurants and some sort of retail will be involved.

I think we're starting to get what's going on here (or maybe I'm just way behind everyone else).

Preftakes is set to demolish at least two of those buildings and build high-rise or mid-rise mixed use buildings there. He'll probably convert the auto hotel into housing of some sort and include retail and restaurants on the bottom level of the new buildings.

To be clear, I'm getting this from semi-crypitic comments on here, Steve's post on OKC Central, and rumors I'm hearing elsewhere, though neither Urbanized nor Steve have dealt in any rumors.

Pretty much.

I'm trying not to bite to hard on "rumors", but there is definately something going on and it seems like something will happen sooner rather than later.

Pretty much.

Ha. I had a feeling this was one of those moments when my lightbulb went off long after everyone else's did. Not unusual.

Ha. I had a feeling this was one of those moments when my lightbulb went off long after everyone else's did. Not unusual.

It took me a little while as well. I didn't really catch on untill Pete said something and Steve's article just made it that more "believable". :bright_id

Although the bus station as a diner is a great idea, the Lunch Box as it is currently managed would not be a good operator. They are only open for lunch (10:30AM - 3PM), not even breakfast let alone dinner or later. AND they are completely closed on weekends.

If they want to survive in their current form, they are going to need inexpensive space to make their business work.


As far as Preftakes, it sounds like he may be a caretaker / agent / middle man for Devon. He's spent a lot of money and if anything has reduced his income by not renewing leases and not even trying to lease vacant space. How could he plunk down tens of millions, not generate much income and just sit on all these properties unless he had partners with deep pockets?

I suspect Devon will have a hand in redeveloping much of that block, and I hope that's the case. It's going to happen and you might as well have someone behind it that can do things right.

I posted this earlier, but wanted to show it again for reference, as speculation heats up.

These are all the properties owned by the Pretakes group on that block:

http://www.okctalk.com/images/pete/misc/precor4.jpg

http://www.okctalk.com/images/pete/misc/precor3b.jpg

^^Pete,what % chances do you see that this will be developed into a mixed-use highrise?

Thanks for the kind words, king183. I definitely try not to repeat rumors here, because in my experience rumors can sometimes have a detrimental effect on very real projects.

But for the record, I don't have any inside information whatsoever regarding Nick's plans. I do know the guy (although don't see him that often these days), and think an awful lot of him and his development chops. I won't hide the fact that he personally influenced my own understanding of downtown development. He's a for real guy; not someone who lobs grandiose development plans in an attempt to lure investors or for other motivations. In my experience if you hear a peep from him on a project the legwork has been done and the money's in the bank.

You're much more likely to drive by one of his projects and ask what the heck is going in there (that you didn't know about), rather than when the heck they are finally going to turn dirt on the project.

I'm only inferring like others here - based on legitimately reported tidbits - that he probably has plans for that property that are more substantial than those little one-story buildings along Sheridan will allow. It only makes sense that the particular block in question, which is immediately across the street from a brand new $750 million corporate headquarters, could and should be able to support a pretty cool project of some sort. My opinion is that Nick has the wherewithal and the vision to do something good there.

I also agree with Fritter Girl; I would REALLY hope that the plans involve retention of the bus station. I too think that building could be something spectacular, with a little TLC.

I've suspected that all along, that Preftakes and Devon are working together, I don't know that for a fact though. It just seems very odd that someone, anyone would buy up buildings just to close them down and sit on them. In other words, basically what Pete said.

So out of fifteen buildings, he only doesn't own four of them, and one of them is owned by the city which Steve mentioned in his blog.