lmao at this

Explain?

JTF brings a great perspective to the board, but he's a new urbanism ideologue. Idealogues disregard information that doesn't fit their ideology. Their ideology explains the world. Same thing happens for those who uncritically adhere to political or religious ideologies without question. New urbanist principles are right about much, but there are always exceptions, nuance, and context. Feel free to correct me if I'm wrong, JTF. No bad intention as your perspective is valuable, but when I read your posts with that understanding it helps me understand your perspective better.

Actually Kerry has changed his opinion at times. De-annexation for OKC being a case in point. It just takes a few years sometimes. :)

Kerry is usually right, I just wish he'd infuse his arguments with OKC relevance and bolster the extent to which he helps the cause of higher standards for OKC.

Kerry just has to be sure to stay away from Tom Elmore land. Elmore had some really good points, but he was so abrasive that people would take the opposite side just to spite him.

JTF brings a great perspective to the board, but he's a new urbanism ideologue. Idealogues disregard information that doesn't fit their ideology. Their ideology explains the world. Same thing happens for those who uncritically adhere to political or religious ideologies without question. New urbanist principles are right about much, but there are always exceptions, nuance, and context. Feel free to correct me if I'm wrong, JTF. No bad intention as your perspective is valuable, but when I read your posts with that understanding it helps me understand your perspective better.

If adhering to your ideology means blatantly ignoring the reality on the ground, it's time to reassess your adherence. Or at least to stop repeating lies in a forum where everyone knows the truth.

JTF, when the most consistent urbanists on the forum are gently chiding you for being a tone-deaf urbanism ideologue, it might be time to reexamine your posting style or to throw in the towel on OKC as you have recently oft threatened. Hopefully you'll do the former rather than the latter.

I agree with Hoya, too; don't become Tom Elmore. Your contributions here are generally too valuable. You shouldn't let extremism cause you to alienate people to the point where they refuse to listen to anything you say. Otherwise, what's the point? Like my Granny used to say, you'll catch more flies with honey than you will with vinegar.

Personally, I also appreciate your consistency and the foundational urbanism doctrine you lay down, but this certainly qualifies for one of the exceptions Dan Kruta mentions. MBG is busy morning, noon, and night.

Truth is pretty subjective around here.

Even if MBG is popular now, turning it into the center of an uninviting area is going to reduce the traffic it already has. There is nothing unique about OKC. When they make the same mistakes other cities make the same result is going to be achieved. My understanding is that the 'success' of MBG can be attributed to the heavy programming (ice rink, pop-up shops, and the summer movie series). When the new Central Park opens how much of that programming is going to move over there?

How is it possible that this park surrounded by parking lots, a blank cc wall a corp tower that is not built to the street, and empty lots is crazy busy

Is it possible it is crowded because of the Thunder game?

I'd say that's part of the reason, as my wife and I would stop for a burger on the way to the game last spring, but to be true about it, we see several families with kids all over the place. Kids playing, parents strolling around. This happens more so than not. A lot of times we see people walking around taking portraits.

How is it possible that this park surrounded by parking lots, a blank cc wall a corp tower that is not built to the street, and empty lots is crazy busy

I think he already said programming.

I went back and put together a time line of events...


As documented at the top of the page, Preftakes bought all his properties (except for the Bus Station) between 12/4/06 and 3/17/08.

Devon announced their HQ plans for the site directly east on 3/12/08. So, every property was purchased or under contract before the Devon announcement.

Also, those 12 separate properties were acquired in the 1.25 years leading directly up to the Devon announcement. Then, absolutely nothing happened on this block for those 6-7 years other than systematically driving out the existing tenants.

The last tenant in any of their properties -- Hunsucker Legal Group -- moved out of One North Hudson this last August.


Just more evidence that Devon has been behind the purchase and development of this property from the beginning.

Devon should just go ahead and build a matching tower on the block. If they did do that I don't think there would be much whining and complaining about the old buildings.

You need to listen to the John Pickard (architect) interview where he calls Devon Tower "The King" and everything else is meant to compliment it.

If adhering to your ideology means blatantly ignoring the reality on the ground, it's time to reassess your adherence. Or at least to stop repeating lies in a forum where everyone knows the truth.

Reality is all well and good but I heard this one thing in a TED talk tho.

You need to listen to the John Pickard (architect) interview where he calls Devon Tower "The King" and everything else is meant to compliment it.

Well the proposed building sure doesn't look like a beautiful queen,more like a knight or maybe a castle. So where will their queen bee?

Well the proposed building sure doesn't look like a beautiful queen,more like a knight or maybe a castle. So where will their queen bee?

Given the slant, I am thinking 499 is a bishop and the parking garages are pawns.

I'd say that's part of the reason, as my wife and I would stop for a burger on the way to the game last spring, but to be true about it, we see several families with kids all over the place. Kids playing, parents strolling around. This happens more so than not. A lot of times we see people walking around taking portraits.

Also during the thunder game last night, there were consistently 50-100 people between park house, the carousel, and the skating rink. It remained that way until well after the end of the game. It was 40 degrees and the wind was blowing 20 mph. It would have seemed like the ideal circumstance to prove that people only come at night because of the thunder game, but that was not the case. While I generally agree that the clayco residential towers fronting the park would be better, there is no way that adding 400+ residents within less than a half block of the park will do anything but improve activity level there. If developed properly, the cox block will help.

I wrote an news article on the preservation efforts for the buildings on this block and also added it to the top of this thread:

OKCTalk - Preservationist look to save nine downtown buildings (http://www.okctalk.com/content/90-preservationist-look-save-nine-downtown-buildings.html)

You need to listen to the John Pickard (architect) interview where he calls Devon Tower "The King" and everything else is meant to compliment it.

I found this interesting as well. When he made mention of that, it made sense. Sure, Devon Tower is the pinnacle of the skyline and, for all general arguments sake, probably will be for a very long time, in fact, it could be the tallest structure in the state for the rest of history as we know it (who knows?). And when he stated that all buildings should be stepping up to the center of the CBD (the tower), I failed to see (and still fail to see) how this particular structure does that. It's short, it doesn't step up from the OGE (Clayco) buildings. In fact, the more I examine this project, the more I come to terms that this is nothing more than a simple auxiliary tower for Larry Nichols, I mean Devon. One that just does the job for them and isn't too expensive. Thus the safe design and less than ambitious height for a multi-tenant office building.

How is it possible that this park surrounded by parking lots, a blank cc wall a corp tower that is not built to the street, and empty lots is crazy busy

Because there is an absence of alternatives - for now. Coming on-line in the near future will be a number of other areas around downtown that cater to walkability.

Let's see....lot's of people coming to live downtown don't add to activity, but added alternatives detract. Let's ignore one side so we can focus on only the negative.

Let's see....lot's of people coming to live downtown don't add to activity, but added alternatives detract. Let's ignore one side so we can focus on only the negative.

I guess I don't understand why trying to protect the multi-million dollar public investment in MBG is being viewed by you guys as "being negative". The surrounding areas are stepping up their game to attract people and MBG is being surrounded by office buildings, parking garages, and convention centers. It's not hard to see how this is going to turn out.

Anyhow, I realize I am out numbered here, but that's not the first time.

I wrote an news article on the preservation efforts for the buildings on this block and also added it to the top of this thread:

OKCTalk - Preservationist look to save nine downtown buildings (http://www.okctalk.com/content/90-preservationist-look-save-nine-downtown-buildings.html)


Doesn't seem like a good plan. Trying to save all the buildings (isome run down 1 story and 1 a parking garage) is going to hurt their credibility.

I guess I don't understand why trying to protect the multi-million dollar public investment in MBG is being viewed by you guys as "being negative". The surrounding areas are stepping up their game to attract people and MBG is being surrounded by office buildings, parking garages, and convention centers. It's not hard to see how this is going to turn out.

Anyhow, I realize I am out numbered here, but that's not the first time.

Your arguement that this building and the clayco. Plan being worse than empty lots and parking. Doesn't hold water

Because there is an absence of alternatives - for now. Coming on-line in the near future will be a number of other areas around downtown that cater to walkability.

Tons of people that use the park every day don't live down town. That won't change

Tons of people that use the park every day don't live down town. That won't change

...and I think it will. If you guys think catering to office workers, parking lots, conventioneers, and tourist are the keys to park success then you are well on your way. Alas, for the sake of getting along this will be last my comment on the subject. We should know in short order if the government and civic leaders in OKC are serious about their commitment to walkability. If their not then I am wasting my time that could be better spent closer to home.

I guess I don't understand why trying to protect the multi-million dollar public investment in MBG is being viewed by you guys as "being negative". The surrounding areas are stepping up their game to attract people and MBG is being surrounded by office buildings, parking garages, and convention centers. It's not hard to see how this is going to turn out.

Anyhow, I realize I am out numbered here, but that's not the first time.

No one is arguing. Just wonder why you ignore reality of what is happening NOW, at least anything that doesn't fit your narrative.

Doesn't seem like a good plan. Trying to save all the buildings (isome run down 1 story and 1 a parking garage) is going to hurt their credibility.

I'm afraid the damage to their credibility would be far greater if they didn't try to save this block from demolition.

Doesn't seem like a good plan. Trying to save all the buildings (isome run down 1 story and 1 a parking garage) is going to hurt their credibility.

They had already put it on the "endangered list" last year, of course they are going to contest.

If they don't stand up for these buildings, they might as well cease to exist.

No one is arguing. Just wonder why you ignore reality of what is happening NOW, at least anything that doesn't fit your narrative.

You're absolutely correct. There are much more effective arguments against the developments than any possible negative affects to the MBG. Kerry wasted his time with all of those discussions.

Doesn't seem like a good plan. Trying to save all the buildings (isome run down 1 story and 1 a parking garage) is going to hurt their credibility.


A historic preservation organization will loose credibility by attempting to preserve historic buildings...


http://cdn.memegenerator.net/images/300x/8112316.jpg

^^^

Uuummm do you really think they can save all the buildings? I sure don't but they might as well try mostly because they can say "We made a compromise" If they can only save the 3 largest buildings.

Uuummm do you really think they can save all the buildings? I sure don't but they might as well try mostly because they can say "We made a compromise" If they can only save the 3 largest buildings.

I agree with this. I personally could care less about the smaller buildings but Motor Hotel, One North Hudson, and the bus station are worth saving.

The thing about those smaller skinny, 2-5 story buildings, how many of those do we have in OKC? when I play Tycoon NYC, I build tons of those. I really like them, but they seem to be abundant in Hells Kitchen, Brooklyn, etc. I like them.

As long he puts up new buildings he could tear the whole block to the ground for all I care.

Wow, look what I found.:calvin2:

The parking garage and the former bus depot are gone. The former Hotel Black, also gone.
It's not that they could not be saved. It's that they belong to someone who is neither required nor motivated to save them.

Wow, look what I found.:calvin2:

Well, that is a little out of context but I still contend that if the new buildings were built on the principles of good urbanism I would be okay with the whole block being cleared. I am not a historic preservationist, I am a 'good urbanism' preservationist - it just so happens that good urbanism is mostly reflected in old buildings. I was 100% okay with Stage Center coming down because it was bad urbanism; unfortunately it is being replaced with so-so urbanism. The Preftakes block is good urbanism being replaced with really poor urbanism.

Well, that is a little out of context but I still contend that if the new buildings were built on the principles of good urbanism I would be okay with the whole block being cleared. I am not a historic preservationist, I am a 'good urbanism' preservationist - it just so happens that good urbanism is mostly reflected in old buildings. I was 100% okay with Stage Center coming down because it was bad urbanism; unfortunately it is being replaced with so-so urbanism. The Preftakes block is good urbanism being replaced with really poor urbanism.

And that is a much better argument than being concerned about the MBG, Kerry.

totally agree, and much better argument Kerry. I think you'll find many agree with your last post but not your earlier ones so-much.

Preservation Oklahoma is a statewide preservation organization supporting the preservation of the local historic properties in this case. OKC had a local preservation group (the Criterion Group) that went defunct several years ago. It would be more effective if a local organization was created to champion these issues in the future, with POK providing support in a background role. With our focus being statewide, we are organizationally stressed to have to try to rally the troops locally. POK would be supportive of any effort undertaken to create this local preservation organization.

I personally feel strongly that there are important buildings affected by this proposal, and hope that at least three of the buildings could be preserved in this block (Auto, Black and Bus Station). There was a preservation survey completed for the City of OKC (2009-2012) that identified this block as a potential historic district (District 1 in the report), with many of the buildings listed as "contributing". If this potential historic district were formalized, all of the contributing buildings would qualify for a 20% federal tax credit and 20% state tax credit for qualified rehabilitation expenses. This is the best incentive that the preservation community has to offer.
The link to the report is here: http://www.okhistory.org/shpo/architsurveys/ILSofDowntownOKCConsolidation.pdf

With so few signatures on the change.org site, it will be difficult arguing that the local community feels strongly about this issue.
If you want to voice your support, please sign the petition, contact the DDRC, and join POK. We will continue our efforts and appreciate any support that you can give.
https://www.change.org/p/oklahoma-city-downtown-design-review-committee-preserve-oklahoma-city-s-history
Historic Preservation Education - Preservation Oklahoma, inc. - Oklahoma City, Ok (http://www.preservationok.org/)

Barrett Williamson, NCARB, President of the Board of Directors

For all you demo-happy folks out there, you must have forgotten what Bricktown looked like before one guy, Neal Horton, started buying up properties and was considered crazy by pretty much everyone. Do any of you know this story?

The Bricktown Collection | Retro Metro OKC (http://www.retrometrookc.org/the-bricktown-collection)

Some of you, if he was on here posting, would have tried to convince him of how wrong he was and that none of the "functionally obsolete" buildings in the warehouse district were worth saving.

http://i83.photobucket.com/albums/j286/UnFrSaKn/Old%20Oklahoma%20City/Bricktown/bricktown_collection_105.jpg

http://i83.photobucket.com/albums/j286/UnFrSaKn/Old%20Oklahoma%20City/Bricktown/bricktown_collection_123.jpg

http://i83.photobucket.com/albums/j286/UnFrSaKn/Old%20Oklahoma%20City/Bricktown/bricktown_collection_104.jpg

http://i83.photobucket.com/albums/j286/UnFrSaKn/Old%20Oklahoma%20City/Bricktown/bricktown_collection_102.jpg

http://i83.photobucket.com/albums/j286/UnFrSaKn/Old%20Oklahoma%20City/Bricktown/bricktown_collection_101.jpg

http://i83.photobucket.com/albums/j286/UnFrSaKn/Old%20Oklahoma%20City/Bricktown/bricktown_collection_099.jpg

http://i83.photobucket.com/albums/j286/UnFrSaKn/Old%20Oklahoma%20City/Bricktown/bricktown_collection_098.jpg

http://i83.photobucket.com/albums/j286/UnFrSaKn/Old%20Oklahoma%20City/Bricktown/bricktown_collection_097.jpg

http://i83.photobucket.com/albums/j286/UnFrSaKn/Old%20Oklahoma%20City/Bricktown/bricktown_collection_090.jpg

http://i83.photobucket.com/albums/j286/UnFrSaKn/Old%20Oklahoma%20City/Bricktown/r960-83e8e609d0ea932c7a6ffd1ae667a8cf.jpg

https://farm8.staticflickr.com/7503/15916577649_c7908a3391_h.jpg

Sorry to everyone for my absence lately, but I just wanted to address the anti-preservation reactionaries on this board. Mostly anti-intellectualism roughly resembling, "Bah humbug, we don't need nice things!" Followed by a cry of "Why can't we have nice things?" From the urbanists and preservationists. That's sorta how I've seen this thread and debate going.

My response to this is simply that preservation isn't a single building or project but rather a way of thinking and valuing the city. It is a different and more holistic way of valuing the city, compared to the growth machine. OKC does not have preservation because we are tearing down individual buildings, but rather because we don't have ordinances, a landmarks commission, or a broad appreciation of our urban history. It is very disappointing, but we will continue to lose more than we gain until we fix this.

The reason this matters is because we have growth, a civic vision, and a bright future. Cities like Detroit are tearing down, and that's a place we shouldn't mimic for developmental patterns. Because of our bright future, these aren't just old buildings we are tearing are collectively the shot at "world class" that we don't have, no matter the empty promises of the developers.

I butchered that last sentence on my iPhone; read as: "Because of our bright future, these old buildings we are tearing down are collectively the shot at "world class" that we currently lack, no matter the empty promises of developers."

Of course I minced other parts and usually do when posting on my phone, but I just wanted to make that point clear. Detroit will do as Detroit does because it already has the "world class" that we probably never will. Just as a corporate plaza with freshly laid bricks and pavers doesn't really affect the "world class" aspect anymore than the jungle weeds growing up through landmarks like Michigan Central Station, "present success" can also be fleeting whether urban or suburban. We are going into a potential oil bust and need to refocus on opportunities to create the "world class" aspect we so badly desire, before we risk everything to ultimately build nothing.

These stakes are very high, the opportunities even greater, and preservation should have a seat at the table that it currently lacks.

Good stuff, Spartan.

I forgot that this video briefly shows the Hotel Black as it once looked.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AuBhjNroJzs

Is it just me, or in that song @ around the 1 minute mark, say "you don't know what you got till its gone, roll the dice & put up a parking lot?"........

Parking lot or parking garage?

This is so sad, we can't add 2 more to this list!

Oklahoma City - SkyscraperPage.com (http://skyscraperpage.com/cities/?cityID=299&statusID=5)

Is it just me, or in that song @ around the 1 minute mark, say "you don't know what you got till its gone, roll the dice & put up a parking lot?"........

Pave paradise and put up a parking lot.

Maybe ONE of the buildings will be saved, would that appease the peoples?

No, there is literally no reason for any of these to go, but especially both the Hotel Black and Auto Hotel.

I thought someone posted this but not on this thread.

Local group fighting plans to demolish historic buildings in downtown Oklahoma City | KFOR.com (http://kfor.com/2014/12/31/local-group-fighting-plans-to-demolish-historic-buildings-in-downtown-oklahoma-city/)

EDIT: Added another link

http://www.okcfox.com/story/27725184/downtown-project-could-demolish-historic-buildings

OKC has demolished many of its early historical buildings; face it, it too late to save what's left. Progress whether we like it or not, will prevail...

How exactly is it too late to save what's left? Great renovations of historic structures have been going on for a couple of decades now, with many dozens in the past 5-10 years. If you mean it's too late to save the buildings in this block, I wouldn't 100% disagree, but we certainly shouldn't take the position that there are no longer old buildings worth saving.

http://imgick.cleveland.com/home/cleve-media/width960/img/plain-dealer/photo/2015/01/08/nucleus-prospect-long-view-8f9b8c4504584aa5.jpg

This 54-story Cleveland tower announced today is very, very similar to the Clayco/Hines development. The differences are that instead of tearing down a few historic storefronts, the project is incorporating them. The skybridge (not even across a street) was turned into a cantilevered structure with leasable space. Instead of residential and corporate being separated, they were mixed between both structures.

Few more photos (not to derail this thread) in the Cleveland thread:
http://www.okctalk.com/other-communities/35524-cleveland-urban-development-update-2.html#post857500

http://imgick.cleveland.com/home/cleve-media/width960/img/plain-dealer/photo/2015/01/08/nucleus-prospect-long-view-8f9b8c4504584aa5.jpg

This 54-story Cleveland tower announced today is very, very similar to the Clayco/Hines development. The differences are that instead of tearing down a few historic storefronts, the project is incorporating them. The skybridge (not even across a street) was turned into a cantilevered structure with leasable space. Instead of residential and corporate being separated, they were mixed between both structures.

Few more photos (not to derail this thread) in the Cleveland thread:
http://www.okctalk.com/other-communities/35524-cleveland-urban-development-update-2.html#post857500The difference is it's actually a real skyscraper.

It's a $300-400 M development. Half Devon, and not any larger than these towers we are talking about.

The floor plates are the difference.

How exactly is it too late to save what's left? Great renovations of historic structures have been going on for a couple of decades now, with many dozens in the past 5-10 years. If you mean it's too late to save the buildings in this block, I wouldn't 100% disagree, but we certainly shouldn't take the position that there are no longer old buildings worth saving.

I bet if you changed your avatar to one of these three buildings, they'd all be saved...... oh wait, nm...

It's a $300-400 M development. Half Devon, and not any larger than these towers we are talking about.

The floor plates are the difference.Explain to me how a 54 story tower isn't taller than a 24 story tower? If you're comparing residential to office, I understand there is a floor height difference, but 30 stories!?!?!??!?