View Full Version : Preftakes Block



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Doug Loudenback
02-25-2011, 06:06 PM
:headscrat
Huh? Please explain.

Doug Loudenback
02-25-2011, 06:10 PM
One idea is to move the Lunch Box to a renovated bus station. It's a perfect spot for a diner and the Lunch Box building is right in the middle of all his properties.

Then, he could develop condos/offices between the bus station and One North Hudson along Sheridan. He could also do the same along Main Street (I'm afraid all those small buildings are going to come down) and use the big parking garage to service both new developments.
Lest we forget, the Coney's place on Main Street could go into such a project, too ... but I fear that the charm of the rustic old but great place to get a hot dog would be forever lost in a more modern building. Part of its present charm is its très trashy mystique (plus having some of the best dogs in Oklahoma City).

Reno and Walker
02-25-2011, 06:39 PM
Doug coney island is holding out for more $ I talked with him yesterday. Bus Station is also holding out for more $

Pete
02-25-2011, 06:45 PM
R&W, is Preftakes interested in buying Main Place (owned by the City of OKC)?

Reno and Walker
02-25-2011, 08:36 PM
I do not think so, I believe he is going to work something out with Devon

Larry OKC
02-25-2011, 09:15 PM
I love the bus station, and the Carpenter Square building. The bus station would make a great restaurant, with outdoor dining under the awnings. The other buildings, rehabbed, would be great for retail and/or restaurants. We've got all the Core to Shore land to build developments. Let's keep a small piece of our past, and create a great little destination area.

I agree, maybe turn the awnings into partial outside seating (of limited use considering our weather) and a drive in (maybe a Sonic or Coits)

ljbab728
02-25-2011, 11:47 PM
lep - I don't think he will be tearing down the significant structures on that block. I agree with Pete - all the one and two story buildings are not long for this world.

What would be more innovative is if the one and two story buildings with interesting architecture could be incorporated into a new higher density development using just their facades. That would still give us a historical context for that area.

Spartan
02-27-2011, 12:43 PM
No. What OKC tried before was 'tear it down and they will come". That is how we ended up with more acres of grass than any downtown in America.

"No, I disagree with saying that because that is what they said 40 years ago and they were already proven wrong."

Think harder, Kerry. Why reinvent the wheel? Why build higher when it's not needed? Do you realize how much vacant land there is downtown? Why should THESE buildings have to go for development? Furthermore, I can not think of any developments from around the world that I want on this block, and I say that with a straight face. I want this block to stay this block. It's a good block, it has so much potential if its buildings would just be used.

And no, new buildings wouldn't have the same character. This block is about as urban as it gets in OKC. It interacts with you. It's gritty and cool. You could put some money into it, renovate the buildings, and maintain the gritty and eclectic feel of this block, and that should be the goal. It doesn't need to be wiped out and replaced with bland-brand-new and shiny.

I do agree with you that you're not a preservationist. I wouldn't call yourself a "new urbanist" because that's the school of thought that solely thinks about suburban town centers and TOD. But you are a pretty good urbanist. You support the city code and I know your main mantra is density and land use. But I am a preservationist. I am also an urbanist, but more importantly, I see myself (and so do many others) as thinking more about the highest quality urban environment, not purely the tallest or biggest urban environment.

Kerry
02-28-2011, 05:42 AM
I am not for the 'tallest' either. I would have rather seen Devon build 10 5-story buildings than a single 50 story building so long as they urban in design. I would like to see original buildings re-used also but right now what downtown needs is people living there. If tearing down a block of one and two story buildings and replacing them with 5 to 7 story apartments (or even 25 story residential building) does that then so be it.

Spartan
02-28-2011, 07:40 AM
But they're not one and two story buildings. There aren't any one story buildings on that block. There is one building (Carpenter Square) that is two stories that I do feel passionately about saving. The others I feel passionately about saving are very significant buildings.

Do you think there's any way a new development has more character than these? These have that gritty Chicago look that OKC needs to preserve. This is one block that can easily become the nexus of the Arts District. Lofts, restaurants, bars, art galleries--these buildings would be perfect.

betts
02-28-2011, 07:46 AM
But they're not one and two story buildings. There aren't any one story buildings on that block. There is one building (Carpenter Square) that is two stories that I do feel passionately about saving. The others I feel passionately about saving are very significant buildings.

Do you think there's any way a new development has more character than these? These have that gritty Chicago look that OKC needs to preserve. This is one block that can easily become the nexus of the Arts District. Lofts, restaurants, bars, art galleries--these buildings would be perfect.

I cannot agree more. The Carpenter Square building is a jewel. The rest could look great renovated and it has the perfect spacing for a mix of some sort of retail and restaurants. To lose it to some bland new development would be terrible. Again, we have all that Core to Shore land so close by that is crying for new development. Put it there.

metro
02-28-2011, 07:49 AM
Carpenter Square is two stories? Sure doesn't look like it. Also the lunch box and bus station appear to be 1 story.

USG'60
02-28-2011, 07:56 AM
I have been beating my brains out trying to remember the original tenent and name of what we are calling Carpenter Square Theater. Someone help me out.

metro
02-28-2011, 08:36 AM
Go to page 2, post 36, first picture

Kerry
02-28-2011, 09:03 AM
Well, the reality is that Mr. Preftakes owns these buildings and they aren't in Core to Shore. I am sure he will not be tearing down Hotel Black and the Auto Hotel building but I think every other building on that block will bite the dust sooner or later, and I am okay with that, so long as he puts something back on the site. Reuse, replace, or rebuild - I don't care which options he chooses so long as it is one of those 3. What I don't want is another park, open space, plaza, parking lot, or fountain.

bluedogok
02-28-2011, 06:58 PM
I cannot agree more. The Carpenter Square building is a jewel. The rest could look great renovated and it has the perfect spacing for a mix of some sort of retail and restaurants. To lose it to some bland new development would be terrible. Again, we have all that Core to Shore land so close by that is crying for new development. Put it there.
There are some places in Boston that are leaving the exterior shell/facades and building mid-rise towers stepped behind the facade. Seems like that is something that could be done with the CST building.

Kerry
02-28-2011, 08:56 PM
There are some places in Boston that are leaving the exterior shell/facades and building mid-rise towers stepped behind the facade. Seems like that is something that could be done with the CST building.

I saw a lot of this London - outside the building looked old but inside they were very modern. Once inside it was hard to believe how old the outside looked.

Spartan
03-01-2011, 05:29 AM
I don't care what happens to Carpenter Square's building, but the facade needs to be preserved. That is all I care about. If you walk up and examine it in person you'll feel that way too. It's extremely ornate, very tactile, great Art Deco. It's one of our last treasures, and it needs to STAY there at Main and Hudson.

Chicken In The Rough
03-01-2011, 07:08 AM
I once lived in a building in Toronto that blended the old and new. They built a 28 story apartment inside the shell of a 100-year old jazz club, and they did a beautiful job.

783

The same thing should be done with Carpenter Square. The shell of the building is beautiful and adds to the character of the neighborhood.

Spartan
03-01-2011, 09:35 AM
I once lived in a building in Toronto that blended the old and new. They built a 28 story apartment inside the shell of a 100-year old jazz club, and they did a beautiful job.

783

The same thing should be done with Carpenter Square. The shell of the building is beautiful and adds to the character of the neighborhood.

These things only happen when you have a government with the cajones to enforce historic preservation. This will NEVER happen in OKC.

Reno and Walker
03-01-2011, 05:38 PM
I don't care what happens to Carpenter Square's building, but the facade needs to be preserved. That is all I care about. If you walk up and examine it in person you'll feel that way too. It's extremely ornate, very tactile, great Art Deco. It's one of our last treasures, and it needs to STAY there at Main and Hudson. Dollar General Store, The building is very very very ugly..

Reno and Walker
03-01-2011, 05:39 PM
I cannot remember anything before that. Use to go there all the time back in the early 70's

Spartan
03-02-2011, 05:24 AM
Dollar General Store, The building is very very very ugly..

You think it's ugly?

Rover
03-02-2011, 07:11 AM
You think it's ugly?

As is, yes it is ugly. Maybe if somebody did some realistic renderings on how it can be rehabbed and how it might fit into an improved block maybe there would be more sentiment to keep it. Of course, I am unaware of any historical significance of the building. Does it have a notable past? Design history or significance other than a sparse amount of deco detail?

Spartan
03-02-2011, 07:27 AM
I think the Carpenter Square bldg could make an awesome retail adaptation, it kind of reminds me of the UO on Mass Street in Lawrence. Not at all in style, but in form and uniqueness. It could look really edgy.

UnFrSaKn
03-02-2011, 07:39 AM
Somehow I totally missed this thread. Over the past few months I've been studying everything and anything I can about the history of downtown and learning all the names of all the old buildings. I'm planning on doing some historical oriented video when it warms up, but it's just an idea. I've read almost everything on Doug's blog. I'm solidly in the camp of preserving what we have and making it work, rather than demolishing it. I've lived here my whole life, and I take it personally when there's discussion of destroying a part of my city's past. Destroying is the easy route. If everyone involved is open-minded enough, I'm positive there is a middle ground that everyone can agree on. What concerns me are folks who don't share the same sense of preservation of our city, no matter what grand things they envision. You can never buy back the lived-in look of buildings that have history etched on them, with any amount of money. One of the biggest jewels of the city that was lost is the Baum building, all because they wanted to straighten out Robinson Street. How stupid and shortsighted was that? Moving it would have cost too much money. If you keep tearing down old buildings, you will have a city with no character left. Walking through a downtown should be like a time machine to different era's and architectural styles. The greatest cities in the nation, you can visit the latest and greatest skyscraper with a 21st century style, and progress back (in some cities) to grand cathedrals of the 1700s. Shortsightedness over the past 40 years in the name of progress has taken enough already in my opinion.

Kerry
03-02-2011, 07:58 AM
I would rather have a vibrant downtown than a living museum of urban decay.

UnFrSaKn
03-02-2011, 07:59 AM
Buildings are only what people choose to make of them.

betts
03-02-2011, 08:16 AM
Character is part of what makes a downtown vibrant. Variety makes a downtown vibrant. New sameness is what we have in the suburbs. Why do downtowns appeal to people? Older buildings with character co-mingled with new is far more visually appealing, IMO.

UnFrSaKn
03-02-2011, 08:16 AM
At 6:06 on the latest construction video, there's a 10th floor garage view of the old Black Hotel and Motor Hotel.
5:09 for the Hightower.

http://vimeo.com/20227538

EDIT: Really, it includes Montgomery Ward and Main Place as well. The whole historical area there.

EDIT: 8:04 has the Carpenter Square Building.

Spartan
03-02-2011, 08:31 AM
I would rather have a vibrant downtown than a living museum of urban decay.

Oh for crying out loud...

Kerry
03-02-2011, 09:07 AM
Oh for crying out loud...

Given two choices - and only two choices: Keep that block as it is right now or tear down the small buildings and replace with a new development, which would you pick?

UnFrSaKn
03-02-2011, 09:13 AM
From russellc on the Devon thread.

http://farm6.static.flickr.com/5099/5489020269_abe18a053a_b.jpg

metro
03-02-2011, 09:13 AM
That pic is deceiving and bad angle

UnFrSaKn
03-02-2011, 09:14 AM
Given two choices - and only two choices: Keep that block as it is right now or tear down the small buildings and replace with a new development, which would you pick?

Why only two choices?

Pete
03-02-2011, 09:18 AM
Is the old Carpenter Square building really that great? Yes, it's old (1939) but it looks pretty plain and ordinary to me:

http://www.oklahomacounty.org/assessor/Searches/sketches/picfile/2730/R010018385001vA.jpg

http://www.oklahomacounty.org/assessor/searches/sketches/picfile/2730/R010018385001ZA.jpg

http://www.oklahomacounty.org/assessor/searches/sketches/picfile/2730/R010018385002XA.jpg

UnFrSaKn
03-02-2011, 09:23 AM
Bing map view (http://www.bing.com/maps/?v=2&cp=35.466477999999995~-97.52072900000002&lvl=20&dir=0&sty=x~lat~35.466478~lon~-97.520729~alt~340.3~z~30~pid~5082&app=5082)

Spartan
03-02-2011, 09:27 AM
Given two choices - and only two choices: Keep that block as it is right now or tear down the small buildings and replace with a new development, which would you pick?

Sigh. If we're going to play that game, then the new development has to be Lower Bricktown-esque (we can call it Lower Arts District). I'd chose keeping the black exactly AS IS. No equivocation.

Spartan
03-02-2011, 09:33 AM
From russellc on the Devon thread.

http://farm6.static.flickr.com/5099/5489020269_abe18a053a_b.jpg

That is an awesome picture.

Pete--there is the black and white checkered tile. The frosted glass windows above. The terra cotta in the top of the facade and the embedded columns between the windows overlooking the street. It is a great building, very eclectic. It needs a lot of TLC.

UnFrSaKn
03-02-2011, 09:41 AM
Carpenter Square on Bing. (http://www.bing.com/maps/?v=2&cp=35.46775699999999~-97.519681&lvl=20&dir=0&sty=x~lat~35.467757~lon~-97.519681~alt~340.6~z~30~h~205.3~p~0.1~pid~5082&app=5082)

UnFrSaKn
03-02-2011, 09:51 AM
11:32 from the video also has a street level shot of Carpenter Square. It has graffiti written on it in the dirty windows.

UnFrSaKn
03-02-2011, 11:46 AM
Here's a 1080p clip.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P-acs8EDVmE

UnFrSaKn
03-03-2011, 12:47 PM
Just got back from a 2-hour shoot of the whole area we're talking about. I think it'll be very relevant to the discussion. I'll have it up as soon as I can.

UnFrSaKn
03-03-2011, 12:57 PM
I just read about who Nicholas Preftakes is, since I just now started following this. At least it's a local guy who's office is a short distance away.

http://blog.newsok.com/okccentral/2009/10/22/who-is-nick-preftakes/

UnFrSaKn
03-03-2011, 07:28 PM
I have been beating my brains out trying to remember the original tenent and name of what we are calling Carpenter Square Theater. Someone help me out.

On Doug's Vintage Map, it says: 1946 to present - Baron's Ready-to-Wear (1946-1952) John's Bargain Store, Dollar General Store, Carpenter Square Theatre (1988-1990), Skyline Theatre

Pete
03-03-2011, 07:32 PM
What we are calling the Carpenter Square building was built in 1939 so there must have been a tenant before Baron's.

UnFrSaKn
03-03-2011, 07:55 PM
Holy cow...see what it once looked like. Why not revert it back to something like this?

http://i83.photobucket.com/albums/j286/UnFrSaKn/Old%20Oklahoma%20City/Carpenter%20Square/barons4.jpg

http://i83.photobucket.com/albums/j286/UnFrSaKn/Old%20Oklahoma%20City/Carpenter%20Square/barons3.jpg

http://i83.photobucket.com/albums/j286/UnFrSaKn/Old%20Oklahoma%20City/Carpenter%20Square/barons2.jpg

http://i83.photobucket.com/albums/j286/UnFrSaKn/Old%20Oklahoma%20City/Carpenter%20Square/barons1.jpg

http://i83.photobucket.com/albums/j286/UnFrSaKn/Old%20Oklahoma%20City/Carpenter%20Square/barons7.jpg

http://i83.photobucket.com/albums/j286/UnFrSaKn/Old%20Oklahoma%20City/Carpenter%20Square/barons6.jpg

http://i83.photobucket.com/albums/j286/UnFrSaKn/Old%20Oklahoma%20City/Carpenter%20Square/barons5.jpg

mcca7596
03-03-2011, 08:00 PM
I think a vintage clothing store would work there...

Seeing those streetcar tracks is so cool, and makes one anticipate the new streetcar even more.

Pete
03-03-2011, 08:05 PM
So cool! And so very, very, very depressing at the same time. Look at all those streetcar tracks and how beautiful those stores were!


There are actually two separate buildings with the same sort of facade. You can see there was Kinney's Shoes along with Baron's.

It also looks like Baron's had two entrances... The one with the little wrought iron fencing seems to be to a staircase to the lower level.

UnFrSaKn
03-03-2011, 08:06 PM
I got good close up HD video of the front...even more sad when you see it now. Just not enough time to get it done today.

Pete
03-03-2011, 08:11 PM
Interestingly, those old photos don't seem to have any of the black and white checkboard tiles now found on part of the facade.

I wonder when those were added?


Looking forward to your video William, as always.

Taking a look at the history is fun but I also find it makes me profoundly sad.

Reno and Walker
03-03-2011, 08:19 PM
Devon is going to buy the block from nick. This is just a strategic buy and hold

mcca7596
03-03-2011, 08:20 PM
Any guess as to their intent?

UnFrSaKn
03-03-2011, 08:26 PM
Here's a view looking West down Main towards Harbour-Longmire and Montgomery Ward. Everything left to right to Harbour-Longmire is now the Devon garage. Baron's/Carpenter Square is just below Harbour-Longmire.

http://i83.photobucket.com/albums/j286/UnFrSaKn/Old%20Oklahoma%20City/W%20Main%20St/westmain300block.jpg

MIKELS129
03-03-2011, 08:33 PM
Any guess as to their intent?
Larry Nichols publically spoke for Tom Ward and Sandridge's horrific mass destruction of our legacy buildings. Can you say "Urban Campus"

mcca7596
03-03-2011, 08:35 PM
Man, I didn't know Larry Nichols advocated Sandridge's campus plan. Why couldn't it be "Urban Live-Work-Play"?

Doug Loudenback
03-03-2011, 08:39 PM
Carpenter Square is two stories? Sure doesn't look like it. Also the lunch box and bus station appear to be 1 story.
I'm not positive about the Carpenter Square building ... the interior photos posted by UnFrSaKn seem to show 1 tall floor. I'll see if I can find it on the assessor's website and that should show a floor plan.

But, as to the bus station, though it's hard to tell, it is 2 stories on the north end. When I was a very young boy, probably 4 or so, I still recall being in the bus station. There was a public stairway on the east side leading to a storage locker and lounge area. At top landing, there was no wall on the south side and you could look down at the 1st floor (and vice versa).

Pete
03-03-2011, 08:48 PM
What the heck would Devon need that block for? They clearly have plenty of space for a long time otherwise they wouldn't have reduced the size of their tower.

Regardless, I trust Devon to the right thing if they do acquire some or all of that block.

Doug Loudenback
03-03-2011, 08:51 PM
Holy cow...see what it once looked like. Why not revert it back to something like this?

http://i83.photobucket.com/albums/j286/UnFrSaKn/Old%20Oklahoma%20City/Carpenter%20Square/barons4.jpg

http://i83.photobucket.com/albums/j286/UnFrSaKn/Old%20Oklahoma%20City/Carpenter%20Square/barons3.jpg

http://i83.photobucket.com/albums/j286/UnFrSaKn/Old%20Oklahoma%20City/Carpenter%20Square/barons2.jpg

http://i83.photobucket.com/albums/j286/UnFrSaKn/Old%20Oklahoma%20City/Carpenter%20Square/barons1.jpg

http://i83.photobucket.com/albums/j286/UnFrSaKn/Old%20Oklahoma%20City/Carpenter%20Square/barons7.jpg

http://i83.photobucket.com/albums/j286/UnFrSaKn/Old%20Oklahoma%20City/Carpenter%20Square/barons6.jpg

http://i83.photobucket.com/albums/j286/UnFrSaKn/Old%20Oklahoma%20City/Carpenter%20Square/barons5.jpg
Excellent finds, UnFrSaKn.

Pete
03-03-2011, 08:54 PM
I believe Carpenter Square is one story with a basement.