Crowe and dunleavy has been downtown for nearly their entire existence, doubt they move out of it.

Devon Energy Center Aerials (July 26 2013) - a set on Flickr (http://www.flickr.com/photos/williamhider/sets/72157634839526279/)

http://farm6.staticflickr.com/5492/9390594829_ae88a411d1_b.jpg

It seems like just the half-block from the city offices east to Hudson (including Carpenter Square) would be enough space to build a sizable tower. If not there, then just the southeast corner where the bus station is.

That's long been the rumor... That Devon would expand on the Carpenter Sq. site.

I can't imagine One North Hudson / Hotel Black ever being demolished, especially since it is currently in a fine functioning state.

It sounds like the auto hotel is the historic structure that is more likely in peril.

That's long been the rumor... That Devon would expand on the Carpenter Sq. site.

I can't imagine One North Hudson / Hotel Black ever being demolished, especially since it is currently in a fine functioning state.

It sounds like the auto hotel is the historic structure that is more likely in peril.

Looks like there is pleanty of room for two towers on that side without knocking down anything other than carpenders square, the buildings from to the west of it to the city building, and the bus station.

Looks like there is pleanty of room for two towers on that side without knocking down anything other than carpenders square, the buildings from to the west of it to the city building, and the bus station.

Yes, but there also has to be significant parking and I don't think that old structure is going to cut it.

It seems that all signs (rumors and educated opinion) point to it not being a part of the long-term plan for that block.

I stopped by this block for the first time since 2010. I had lunch at Nebu with some people and the weather turned, then rained on me after I left. I will have to come back but got decent footage earlier. I'm working on it now.

It sounds like the auto hotel is the historic structure that is more likely in peril.


Yes, but there also has to be significant parking and I don't think that old structure is going to cut it.

It seems that all signs (rumors and educated opinion) point to it not being a part of the long-term plan for that block.

That's too bad, I thought both 1 N. Hudson and the Auto Hotel were pretty much safe from the wrecking ball; I personally like the architecture of the Auto Hotel better than 1 N. Hudson if I had to choose one to save, but I understand that it would be much easier to convert/upgrade 1 N. Hudson since it is already office space.

Block West of Devon Energy Center (July 29 2013) - a set on Flickr (http://www.flickr.com/photos/williamhider/sets/72157634848012609/)

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Hey guys, I had a meeting tonight at the Oklahoma State Medical Association. One of the doctors there that I was talking with this evening is a real estate developer on the side, and is working with Preftakes on his redevelopment of the area he owns. He told me that the first phase will be the redevelopment of Hotel Black into a 70 room boutique hotel with restaurant on the ground floor. He said Preftakes plans to sit on the rest of the area for now (waiting for whatever deals might come his way) but he won't rule out a possible tower in the future. Said it depends on what Devon does. But based on this source and his closeness, I can say with 100% confidence that the plans now are to convert Hotel Black back to it's original use!

Thanks for the info., Patrick. Will be interesting to see who operates this... Perhaps Paul Coury? He/they are busy with the Osler/Ambassador but this property would be right up his alley.


Would love to see One North Hudson / Hotel Black with the windows restored to the original double-hung type. Also, the stonework at the top has really grayed. I'm sure they plan to clean it up so it really stands out again. It also looks like a fair bit of the ornamentation at the top was removed at some point.

And the top of this building is just crying out for a rooftop bar (or two).

http://www.okhistory.org/research/images/hillerman/21412.M258.6.jpg

http://i8.photobucket.com/albums/a49/DougLoudenback/hotels/black01s_metlib.jpg

In case anyone forgot what Carpenter Square once looked like:

http://i83.photobucket.com/albums/j286/UnFrSaKn/Old%20Oklahoma%20City/Carpenter%20Square/barons7.jpg

http://i83.photobucket.com/albums/j286/UnFrSaKn/Old%20Oklahoma%20City/Carpenter%20Square/barons5.jpg

http://i83.photobucket.com/albums/j286/UnFrSaKn/Old%20Oklahoma%20City/Carpenter%20Square/barons6.jpg

http://i83.photobucket.com/albums/j286/UnFrSaKn/Old%20Oklahoma%20City/Carpenter%20Square/barons4.jpg

http://i83.photobucket.com/albums/j286/UnFrSaKn/Old%20Oklahoma%20City/Carpenter%20Square/barons3.jpg

http://i83.photobucket.com/albums/j286/UnFrSaKn/Old%20Oklahoma%20City/Carpenter%20Square/barons2.jpg

That's funny how we posted old photos at the same time. I was gonna post Hotel Black next... :)

http://i83.photobucket.com/albums/j286/UnFrSaKn/Old%20Oklahoma%20City/Black%20Hotel/blackhotel3.jpg

Didn't we lose enough stuff already?

http://i83.photobucket.com/albums/j286/UnFrSaKn/Old%20Oklahoma%20City/1972/MerchantileDollarGenMainHudson.jpg

Carpenter Square was a Dollar General in the 70's.

http://i83.photobucket.com/albums/j286/UnFrSaKn/Old%20Oklahoma%20City/1972/GlobrBlack.jpg

Hotel Black in the background

http://i83.photobucket.com/albums/j286/UnFrSaKn/Old%20Oklahoma%20City/1972/GlobeLife.jpg

My source said that Preftakes' preference is to redevelop the other properties as is, looking for the right tenants to make the most profit off of his investment. But money also talks. He says he'd like to preserve Carpenter Square but for the right price he'd sell out to anyone wanting to develop a tower. But such a proposal hasn't come into fruition. He's open to finding the right tenant for said properties.

Too early to say who will operate the hotel, but it will be converted back into a boutique hotel, 70 rooms with ground floor restaurant.

By the way, I think it would be cool to add the original (recreated) Hotel Black sign to match what you see on the Colcord. Nobody complains about that sign do they? I think it would add character to the block, and contrast with the brand new buildings going up around it.

All I have to say is WOW! Back in the early 90's, there was one hotel downtown (now the Sheraton). There are currently 7 open (Sheraton, Renaissance, Skirvin, Colcord, Courtyard, Hampton, Residence Inn). Now there are 6 in development (2 in east Bricktown, Holiday Inn Express, Aloft, Hotel Black, and the duo next to Hampton)! Total of 13.

http://i83.photobucket.com/albums/j286/UnFrSaKn/Old%20Oklahoma%20City/harbourlongmire.jpg

Love that Hotel Black sign -- similar to the one at Plaza Court.

Also, looking at the photos Will posted you can see they really butchered the stonework at the top of that building during the last 'renovation'.

Yes, please bring back the original signage! That would look so cool lit up at night.

If I were to bet money on it, I bet we see a tower on the Carpenter Square site and also less likely but still likely on the bus station site. All will need parking, so maybe the auto will stay. From the way it sounded tonight though, options are still open for the auto hotel and he may possibly be eyeing residential lofts for that space.

Didn't we lose enough stuff already?

http://i83.photobucket.com/albums/j286/UnFrSaKn/Old%20Oklahoma%20City/1972/MerchantileDollarGenMainHudson.jpg

Carpenter Square was a Dollar General in the 70's.

http://i83.photobucket.com/albums/j286/UnFrSaKn/Old%20Oklahoma%20City/1972/GlobrBlack.jpg

Hotel Black in the background

http://i83.photobucket.com/albums/j286/UnFrSaKn/Old%20Oklahoma%20City/1972/GlobeLife.jpg

It's sad how great Main Street used to be

Wish they would uncover those designs at the top of the Hotel Black Building, or repaint them if they were painted on. Adds a lot of character.

Wish they would uncover those designs at the top of the Hotel Black Building, or repaint them if they were painted on. Adds a lot of character.

You can still sort of see it... look for the triangles.

http://farm6.staticflickr.com/5450/9395100431_38910a2aa0_b.jpg

I wonder if they were painted over? Or if they were just painted on to begin with and have since weathered off? Or if they were painted on and the paint was removed in a later renovation? I bet its the last alternative.

All I have to say is WOW! Back in the early 90's, there was one hotel downtown (now the Sheraton). There are currently 7 open (Sheraton, Renaissance, Skirvin, Colcord, Courtyard, Hampton, Residence Inn). Now there are 6 in development (2 in east Bricktown, Holiday Inn Express, Aloft, Hotel Black, and the duo next to Hampton)! Total of 13.

+ The Ambassador in Midtown

My source said that Preftakes' preference is to redevelop the other properties as is, looking for the right tenants to make the most profit off of his investment. But money also talks. He says he'd like to preserve Carpenter Square but for the right price he'd sell out to anyone wanting to develop a tower. But such a proposal hasn't come into fruition. He's open to finding the right tenant for said properties.

Too early to say who will operate the hotel, but it will be converted back into a boutique hotel, 70 rooms with ground floor restaurant.

He'd like to preserve Carpenter square but hasn't put a dime into it. Somehow I don't believe he actually cares and knows a tower will end up on that site.

Steve mentioned in an article today he's heard that 1 N Hudson will be housing, not a hotel:

Glimpsing the future along Oklahoma City's Sheridan Avenue | News OK (http://newsok.com/glimpsing-the-future-along-oklahoma-citys-sheridan-avenue/article/3867256)

That's just it. Preftakes changes his story constantly, depending on where the money leads him. I was almost sure last time I posted that 1 N Hudson was going to become housing but my thoughts changed after I spoke with my source last night. We'll see how it plays out. I'd be happy with either use as long as the building is preserved. I'm leaning more towards a boutique hotel at this point though, as those were the plans discussed last night, and I know of no other 70 room boutique hotel being planned downtown at the moment.

I think housing has consistently been the plan, lately.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_awpwWktVd0
Block West of Devon Energy Center (July 29 2013) - YouTube (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_awpwWktVd0)

I really hope the Auto Hotel doesn't get demolished. However, I am ambivalent about Carpenter Square.

My father was glad to see those old pictures of those old buldings.

My father also noted that around this time this entire area was a pimple on the @$$ of OKC. Skid row was caddy corner across from the bus station. Well the entire area really he said. He said the bus station was a no-no. The bus station bathroom was one of those where men met for sex and drugs were dealt/taken down there. Not every night or all the time but enough that it was known what went on down there. I remember my much older cousin Anthony was homeless and had a bit of a drinking problem. He hung out on skid row and said no one from that area would go down into that bus station bathroom. There were criminals that hung out the entire area, waiting to pull someone in an alley, Anthony said.

Not trying to degrade the area (although that is exactly what I did). Just saying that there are lots of "what have we done to OKC in demolishing this building, that building. OKC's history is destroyed, no appreciation, IM Pei sucks" etc.. Well many of these historic buildings were in the roughest areas of town back in the 60-70's. What do you do at that point? The best way to clean up that area was to demolish the buildings and do away with the stigma that surrounded them. Not saying it was right (or wrong), just what they had to do to clean up the area.

My high school group attended a YMCA/state government function in OKC two consecutive years in 70 and 71. We stayed at The Biltmore one yr and Hotel Black the next. Two boys were confronted with men wanting sex from them in the men's room at the Biltmore and we kept being disturbed ath the Hotel Black by "bellmen" wanting to provide us girls. On the street, we kept getting hit up by panhandlers who were mostly drunks. It was a disgusting place to be. Maybe that is why I have less affection for the "good ole days" downtown that so many on here pine for. They obviously weren't here at that time. It was a run down seedy place to be.

Every city was like that in the 60's and 70's.

My high school group attended a YMCA/state government function in OKC two consecutive years in 70 and 71. We stayed at The Biltmore one yr and Hotel Black the next. Two boys were confronted with men wanting sex from them in the men's room at the Biltmore and we kept being disturbed ath the Hotel Black by "bellmen" wanting to provide us girls. On the street, we kept getting hit up by panhandlers who were mostly drunks. It was a disgusting place to be. Maybe that is why I have less affection for the "good ole days" downtown that so many on here pine for. They obviously weren't here at that time. It was a run down seedy place to be.

If we tore down every building that stood witness to homosexuality or prostitution we wouldn't have any buildings left. Maybe a few homes in Sally Kern's district...and yours of course. But not your home in Chelsea.

If we tore down every building that stood witness to homosexuality or prostitution we wouldn't have any buildings left. Maybe a few homes in Sally Kern's district...and yours of course. But not your home in Chelsea.

You seem smarter than to read that into what I said. Surely you are.

Quite frankly I'm not sure what you wrote, but I'd hate to hear what kind of activities were going on in Bricktown or Automobile Alley back in your youth.

We're talking about demolition of the historic Preftakes-owned properties in this thread, as you must have known when you suggested that everyone here would've demolished the seedy downtown you knew in the 70s.

No, earlier the discussion was about what precipitated drastic action in downtown. Too many on here vilify while having a romanticized notion of what was going on. Posting pictures without overlaying with what actually happened leading up to decisions is misleading. Destroying everything wasn't right, but it was desperate times and circumstances that helped create the environment that called to action. It is completely different now.

And, the comment didn't have anything to do with sexuality but with deviancy and public threat or danger. Surely you can't approve. People wanted it to change. And whether it was accomplished the right way or not, it did change. It also isn't about the drunks or deviants, but about what led to it and what decisions it spurred.

History and preservation isn't just about buildings but about what led to decisions and changes so we don't make the same mistakes over and over.

Text without context is pretext. We want to skip context too often on this board.

We're talking about demolition of the historic Preftakes-owned properties in this thread, as you must have known when you suggested that everyone here would've demolished the seedy downtown you knew in the 70s.

Frankly this is a dishonest attempt to be dramatic. I did not, nor do not advocate such. There was no such suggestion, but an attempt to put things in context. Self centered people believe history begins with them and their era. It is intellectually lazy to ignore historical context.

Okaaay.... so then you're anti-demo?

My high school group attended a YMCA/state government function in OKC two consecutive years in 70 and 71. We stayed at The Biltmore one yr and Hotel Black the next. Two boys were confronted with men wanting sex from them in the men's room at the Biltmore and we kept being disturbed ath the Hotel Black by "bellmen" wanting to provide us girls. On the street, we kept getting hit up by panhandlers who were mostly drunks. It was a disgusting place to be. Maybe that is why I have less affection for the "good ole days" downtown that so many on here pine for. They obviously weren't here at that time. It was a run down seedy place to be.

I don't see as much of a pining for the mythical "good ole days" as much as a desire to see historic structures preserved and re-purposed so that downtown can create a competitive urban landscape where these interesting works from our past contribute to the community in positive ways as opposed to hosting the seedy activities you experienced. In most cases the context is not what took place in the structures at a given point in time, but how they can be used to further facilitate Oklahoma City's renaissance by helping create a more definitive Oklahoma City experience for residents and guests.

There are so many examples of derelict buildings that once hosted vice being renovated and turned into hosts for positive activity and, in turn, became part of a city's most popular and defining districts that it almost seems reckless to do anything else these days, especially in an urban area where so much undeveloped or underdeveloped real estate exists. While Oklahoma City missed out in the 90s when every other city in the country was turning some of their most troubled neighborhoods into the their most important assets, we do have examples of that happening here on some scale. MidTown, Bricktown, and The Plaza district are what they are or becoming what they will be because of renovation. I think, if anything, people are just pining for more of that. The unique thing about Oklahoma City, since we have already torn down so much, is that we could renovate every currently standing structure without creating a real estate barrier to new development. Unfortunately, demolition still seems to be the preference over first developing lots that were already cleared decades ago, even when they are within a block of each other.

Okaaay.... so then you're anti-demo?

Not as an absolute, but yes I am. I have always advocated updating and/or re-purposing of significant and salvageable buildings. Of course, it always gets into what is significant and salvageable. I also have a degree in economics and in finance and I understand the financial realities as well as social realities that lead to decisions that look smart at the time but dumb in the rear view mirror.

I don't see as much of a pining for the mythical "good ole days" as much as a desire to see historic structures preserved and re-purposed so that downtown can create a competitive urban landscape where these interesting works from our past contribute to the community in positive ways as opposed to hosting the seedy activities you experienced. In most cases the context is not what took place in the structures at a given point in time, but how they can be used to further facilitate Oklahoma City's renaissance by helping create a more definitive Oklahoma City experience for residents and guests.

There are so many examples of derelict buildings that once hosted vice being renovated and turned into hosts for positive activity and, in turn, became part of a city's most popular and defining districts that it almost seems reckless to do anything else these days, especially in an urban area where so much undeveloped or underdeveloped real estate exists. While Oklahoma City missed out in the 90s when every other city in the country was turning some of their most troubled neighborhoods into the their most important assets, we do have examples of that happening here on some scale. MidTown, Bricktown, and The Plaza district are what they are or becoming what they will be because of renovation. I think, if anything, people are just pining for more of that. The unique thing about Oklahoma City, since we have already torn down so much, is that we could renovate every currently standing structure without creating a real estate barrier to new development. Unfortunately, demolition still seems to be the preference over first developing lots that were already cleared decades ago, even when they are within a block of each other.

I see a huge amount of renovation and reuse in OKC today. I am not sure that demo is indeed the preference. However I think it should be no surprise that as we make the core a more valuable place that there is economic pressure to justify low income properties remaining in highly desired places. What we have to shore up is defining the economic value to society that overrides opportunity to earn. It puts pressure on defining the significance of every building that is endangered and is in a highly valued area.

If we tore down every building that stood witness to homosexuality or prostitution we wouldn't have any buildings left. Maybe a few homes in Sally Kern's district...and yours of course. But not your home in Chelsea.

The two buildings mentioned as being a problem are still standing, the bus station and Hotel Black building.

If every building that had a problem were torn down there would be more gone than was taken down. Some of it had to go. No way could all those buildings been kept and the area still revitalized. The reputation of the area was just too bad. It's still bad with some people (deservedly or not).

There was still a porn theater a block away until the late 90's. And my dad confirmed the Hotel Black was a hooker hotel, a "no-tel motel" a "ramrod inn". The area's reputation did not go easily. The area was cleaned up over 35 years ago yet is just now getting over the stigma of being a rough area.

With the halfway house on Walker and homeless shelter on Reno, that area is now looked upon as less than desirable. Many posters on here have stated they want those areas moved. People wanted the detox tank moved from Deep Deuce and it happened. It's easy to imagine the same thing happened with some of those buildings back in the 70's. "That area is too rough, we have to move some of that element out" and you get what you have today, a demolished building.

Yet, it's a good thing that some of the buildings are still standing and can be reused today. Sadly not all could be saved. But even with renovation and the construction of new office buildings I think downtown's heyday as far as shopping is long gone and won't return. Downtown shopping probably wasn't even what some think it was.

I see a huge amount of renovation and reuse in OKC today. I am not sure that demo is indeed the preference. However I think it should be no surprise that as we make the core a more valuable place that there is economic pressure to justify low income properties remaining in highly desired places. What we have to shore up is defining the economic value to society that overrides opportunity to earn. It puts pressure on defining the significance of every building that is endangered and is in a highly valued area.

I didn't mean to say that renovation isn't happening at all. I just meant that when there is significant new development, it seems the preference is to begin with demolition of an older structure, and its sometimes for nothing more than a parking lot or plaza.

I understand where you're coming from and it would certainly apply in an area with less inventory of undeveloped or underdeveloped land. We literally tear stuff down for a new project that is within a block of empty or underdeveloped land. Having lived places where there is more active preservation and less inventory, it just seems relatively misguided.

Quite frankly I'm not sure what you wrote, but I'd hate to hear what kind of activities were going on in Bricktown or Automobile Alley back in your youth.


Well, in Bricktown in the late 80's and early 90's we were partying in those buildings. You could walk around, it wasn't unsafe... Just nobody around to bother you.

No, earlier the discussion was about what precipitated drastic action in downtown. Too many on here vilify while having a romanticized notion of what was going on. Posting pictures without overlaying with what actually happened leading up to decisions is misleading. Destroying everything wasn't right, but it was desperate times and circumstances that helped create the environment that called to action. It is completely different now.While I decry the destruction of the Criterion and the Huckins Hotel, not to mention the John A. Brown complex and Katz Drug -- a historic site if ever there was one in OKC -- I also have to be honest about what had happened to the CBD in the 50s.

The one and only time I was ever openly propositioned by another male was during my high school years, and it happened on Hudson across the street from the Hotel Black. With a group of friends, we were cruiusing downtown; this brawny fellow accosted us, and we were acutely uncomfortable. However when we refused and walked away, he didn't follow us.

During my college years, Little Louie's bar and "hotel" a block east of Grand and Broadway was known as the place to pick up girls. It was licensed as a hotel so that it could have a dance floor, but was actually a honky-tonk with a couple of rooms in the back that one reportedly could rent by the hour. The Silver Lounge, in the basement of the Hudson Hotel, had a similar reputation but for a much high-class clientele. Grand itself, at night, was a bar district, as was the block of Broadway between Grand and Main (where the Little White Cloud held sway). California and Reno, however, were simply Skid Row.

Main Street itself was not exactly exempt. The second floors of many respected business establishments held seedy hotels and offices of fly-by-night companies.

When I became the Oklahoman's police reporter in the late 50s, things had become much worse. As others have pointed out, Grand, California, and Reno had become high-crime areas. One popular detective was shot and almost killed at a Chinese restaurant (the Golden Pheasant) located just south of Main, on Broadway. The only thing that saved him from the perp's bullet was that it hit his badge, deflecting it away from his heart. His attacker managed to "fall upstairs" en route from the cafe to a waiting police car. And that wasn't especially unusual for downtown in those years...

The wholesale destruction was intended, in large part, to eliminate all that rot from the CBD so it could be replaced by something much better. Unfortunately that replacement took some 40 years to begin happening! And meanwhile, we had destroyed more than 90% of our too-short history...

We all wish that history would have played out a little differently. I think what Rover is saying is that it wouldn't just be the history of building demolition that would have to change, you'd have to change a lot of the social factors that led to the building demolition. People didn't just decide to tear down a bunch of cool old buildings just for the hell of it.

During my college years, Little Louie's bar and "hotel" a block east of Grand and Broadway was known as the place to pick up girls. It was licensed as a hotel so that it could have a dance floor, but was actually a honky-tonk with a couple of rooms in the back that one reportedly could rent by the hour. The Silver Lounge, in the basement of the Hudson Hotel, had a similar reputation but for a much high-class clientele. Grand itself, at night, was a bar district, as was the block of Broadway between Grand and Main (where the Little White Cloud held sway). California and Reno, however, were simply Skid Row.

Hudson Hotel in early 70's.

http://i83.photobucket.com/albums/j286/UnFrSaKn/Old%20Oklahoma%20City/1972/HotelHudson.jpg

StreetView (https://www.google.com/maps/preview?authuser=0&hl=en#!data=!1m8!1m3!1d3!2d-97.519508!3d35.465959!2m2!1f30.82!2f91.56!4f75!2m4 !1e1!2m2!1sCY8miW3bTigUe7Ak1Fr_Jw!2e0&fid=5)

http://i83.photobucket.com/albums/j286/UnFrSaKn/Old%20Oklahoma%20City/Hudson%20Hotel/RAC20100701-1957-Hudson-Hotel.jpg
60's?

Obviously I misremembered the name of the lounge. "Silver" may have been the one in the Black; "Mirror" was the one with the reputation.

I noticed that but thought I should let you mention it first. Funny how details can change and get switched.

People who aren't old enough to remember can't appreciate how bad things were downtown in the 60's and 70's.

The only time my family ever went down there was to pick up my grandmother at the train station. And we got in and out of there very quickly.

When the Myriad opened in 1972, it provided the only other reason to go down there. But believe me, you went to the event (usually Blazers hockey) and did nothing else in the area.

I noticed that but thought I should let you mention it first. Funny how details can change and get switched.At 82, I can always claim a senior moment... Was it Mark Twain, or Will Rogers, who said, "It ain't the things we don't know that get us in trouble; it's the things we do know that just ain't so"?

a "ramrod inn".

Well I learned a new term today. Thank you The Internet.

I'm not a huge fan of seedy, but a little seedy is to be expected in a city, right? I'm definitely not a fan of razing entire neighborhoods to sanitize them.

The wholesale destruction was intended, in large part, to eliminate all that rot from the CBD so it could be replaced by something much better. Unfortunately that replacement took some 40 years to begin happening! And meanwhile, we had destroyed more than 90% of our too-short history...

And even still, we must have destroyed the wrong things, because it wasnt enough to avoid still doing it today.

Well I learned a new term today. Thank you The Internet.

They were also called a 'get and go'.....

a "ramrod inn"


Well I learned a new term today. Thank you The Internet.

You mean Oklahoma City in the 50's wasn't a giant version of Mayberry that I imagined?

Speaking of restoring the Hotel Black sign...

http://www.okctalk.com/other-urban-development/20552-automobile-alley-general-thread-34.html#post674712

Maybe the same can happen here with a brand new sign the way it will on AA.