It is evident, that to continue our momentum, a MAPS IV proposal will be implemented within the coming years, so my question, is that what initiatives should be addressed in MAPS IV?

Since the previous MAPS programs have addressed our school system, public amenities, and infrastructure, I am curious as to what our city politicians will address in round 4.

My MAPS IV Initiatives that I would propose:

1. New Fire/Police Stations Across City
2. Adventure District Expansion
3. Urban Decayed Neighborhood Rejuvenation Project
4. Class "A" Office Park (Advised by OKC Chamber of Commerce)
5. Buried Power Lines Project

It's a tad early.

Let's see if the city council can come through with the promises they've made thus far. If they fail, I will not support a MAPS IV.

Buried utilities create nightmares later on. Urbanists generally drink the koolaid on that all together, but I've never liked those. Public safety already has a dedicated sales tax. The MAPS penny has always been about economic development. The Adventure District seems like a cliche MAPS idea, it's always been there..a new museum or whatever will always be considered, when the Adventure District has more than enough now and just needs to find some way to turn them into real museums that are actual draws, and not just something you go to once as a kid.

And above all, GOD, I just hope MAPS3 stays exactly as it is/was intended. That's going to take political capital right now because the council was incredibly naive to think the political makeup wouldn't change down the road. They chose flexibility for themselves at the cost of giving huge flexibility to others, and that was a mistake.

Buried utilities create nightmares later on. Urbanists generally drink the koolaid on that all together, but I've never liked those. Public safety already has a dedicated sales tax. The MAPS penny has always been about economic development. The Adventure District seems like a cliche MAPS idea, it's always been there..a new museum or whatever will always be considered, when the Adventure District has more than enough now and just needs to find some way to turn them into real museums that are actual draws, and not just something you go to once as a kid.

And above all, GOD, I just hope MAPS3 stays exactly as it is/was intended. That's going to take political capital right now because the council was incredibly naive to think the political makeup wouldn't change down the road. They chose flexibility for themselves at the cost of giving huge flexibility to others, and that was a mistake.

I know that the Adventure District is a joke, that is why it needs expansion, lol...

Maps3 is for 7 years so we might be jumping the gun a bit, but Ill go ahead and throw out an opinion. New fire/police stations will probably ha_e to be included to get support and to a_oid another "not this maps". I like the idea of expanding the ad_enture district and neighborhood reju_enation. Not sure that the city should be in_ol_ed with de_eloping an office park though and Im not sure about the power line burying either. One thing that is missing that I see being a big component of the next maps is money going to transportation. Transportation surely will be the biggest part of Maps 4.

Sorry about the undersores, a certain letter isnt working on the keyboard.

Maybe buried power lines in certain districts that are also seeing a streetscape. I'm sure the costs are high which is why they don't do it.

A lot of other cities fund office parks, to attract major employers to the area, that is why I think it would be a good idea. Also, would propose burying power lines across the whole city, but in certain areas.

Those cities usually tend to be suburbs of big cities attempting to lure companies already settled into the region, though. Still, I'm not saying it wouldn't be beneficial for OKC to implement some of the same strategies used by fast-growing suburbs.

As for the burying power lines, I would hope that is never done all throughout the city, and I hope that isn't done anymore through downtown either. Buried utilities just create more nightmares than they can ever circumvent. Just look at Project 180 right now.

I also agree that MAPS 4 should include a massive streetcar funding mechanism (with a federal match), and possibly be coupled with OKC's contribution to a regional LRT system funding mechanism. Transit is going to become a bigger and bigger deal.

This time around, we finally addressed it in a sustainable way for the first time in 70-80 years, and it was only 1/7 of the total vision. The commitment is going to get larger and reap even larger rewards.

Yep, depending on what happens with oil/gas prices, how OKC responds to streetcar, and how much our demand for transit increases in the next 7 years, I can even see a plausible case for "MAPS for Transit" to fix the buses, expand streetcars, and fund OKC portions of commuter rail.

I would love to see a $1Bil Complete Streets (http://www.completestreets.org/) project throughout the city. Upgrade all bus stops, pedestrian accessibility, narrow roads, bike lanes, and add form based comprehensive planning along it to sew it all up.The 2007 bond election was for $835.5 million. I think a lot of it remains to be done.

I am going to go out on a limb and predict that there will not be a MAPS IV.

A new dowtown Domed/sliding roof stadium so we can get some real football,amongst other things in these parts.

How does Super Bowl 2025 sound?

The NFL owners want to add two more games because of their expensive stadiums.

NFL in OKC will never happen in my lifetime! Now eventually in the next decade or two The OKC Thunder will need a new arena!

The NFL owners want to add two more games because of their expensive stadiums.

Personally, I think it's just stupid to have four preseason games. I doubt the NFL will ever come to Oklahoma City.

I'd rather have MLB personally, but honestly the NHL is the only league that realistically could come within the next 5 or 10 years. Even it might draw away too many fans from the Thunder.

Some early C2S layouts included a football stadium...let me see if I can locate them...

http://www.okc.gov/planning/coretoshore/visuals/idea_2_full_size.jpg

http://www.okc.gov/planning/coretoshore/visuals/idea_1_full_size.jpg

A football stadium would only be good for OU-OSU or OU-TU,OSU-TU football games and maybe a bowl game!There is NO chance OKC builds a football stadium!Maybe in The future when OKC hits around 2-3 million metro but even then it's a stretch!

How long even after The renovations will Clay and Co.and The Thunder want a new arena?This could be on a future MAPS ballot!

I am going to go out on a limb and predict that there will not be a MAPS IV.

I agree...

The best chance OKC has at another top level pro sports is auto racing and soccer. If all these people trying to bring every minor league sport under the sun to OKC would just get together they could bring in MLS.

I am going to go out on a limb and predict that there will not be a MAPS IV.

Recent weeks have me concerned you are not way out on a limb, but are perched instead on a rather sturdy branch.

I would support taking a break from MAPS in exchange for a permanent Oklahoma County half-penny tax to fund transit capital projects and operations. Would be a good idea for Cleveland County too, but maybe they only need .25%

I'd like to see transportation....expand light rail to an actual commuter line...make it worth something. I'd also like to see a massive repaving project. Put some real effort into getting our roads up to par. Yes, it's more temporary than say an arena, but it's never going to happen otherwise. Same goes for putting sidewalks in.

I'd also like to see the traffic light linking done. I'm so tired of how many lights ignore each other...you get a green only to be stuck 300 feet later at a red. ARGH

would love to bury the power lines ... at least in the urban core ..

I'd like to see transportation....expand light rail to an actual commuter line...make it worth something. I'd also like to see a massive repaving project. Put some real effort into getting our roads up to par. Yes, it's more temporary than say an arena, but it's never going to happen otherwise. Same goes for putting sidewalks in.

I'd also like to see the traffic light linking done. I'm so tired of how many lights ignore each other...you get a green only to be stuck 300 feet later at a red. ARGH

Their working on that. It will take around 4 years.
http://www.kfor.com/news/local/kfor-news-traffic-lights-sync-story,0,7162389.story


The city will focus on these busy intersections:

January 2011: Meridian-Reno to Will Rogers Parkway
March-May 2011: NW Expressway-Piedmont Road to Classen Curve
June-July 2011: Classen Blvd.- NW 39th to SW 4th
August-October 2011: Shields Blvd-SE 23rd to SE 89th
November 2011-January 2012: MLK-Millwood High School Drive to California


Over the next four years, the city will synchronize every traffic light.

I'd like to see transportation....expand light rail to an actual commuter line...make it worth something. I'd also like to see a massive repaving project. Put some real effort into getting our roads up to par. Yes, it's more temporary than say an arena, but it's never going to happen otherwise. Same goes for putting sidewalks in.

I'd also like to see the traffic light linking done. I'm so tired of how many lights ignore each other...you get a green only to be stuck 300 feet later at a red. ARGH

We have something like half a billion for road improvements included in the 2007 bond issue, so they are working on it.

Same with sidewalks (as roads are widened, they are adding them in).

Then there is the massive redoing of everything within the Project 180

Will see the results of Project 180 on a more immediate basis, the bond projects can easily take 10 years before they are completed. Also, if there is a specific project that you are interested in, keep on the City to make sure it gets done. A few years ago (before the 2007 bond vote) there was an audit and they discovered that there were projects going back 3 previous bond issues (and up to 18 years at the time) of projects that had never been completed or started.

I would support taking a break from MAPS in exchange for a permanent Oklahoma County half-penny tax to fund transit capital projects and operations. Would be a good idea for Cleveland County too, but maybe they only need .25%

Cleveland and Canadian, if they want to be included in rail, will need to at least match the tax rate in Oklahoma county if not more. Consider that a line out to Yukon or Moore/Norman almost entirely benefits those areas. A penny tax in Canadian County doesn't generate even close to as much as it generates in Oklahoma County.

Bomber: You sound like a perfect candidate for abandoning your car, given all the stress the roads seem to give you. I would encourage you to take the plunge and be among the first in OKC to live car-free once it becomes viable.

Cleveland and Canadian, if they want to be included in rail, will need to at least match the tax rate in Oklahoma county if not more. Consider that a line out to Yukon or Moore/Norman almost entirely benefits those areas. A penny tax in Canadian County doesn't generate even close to as much as it generates in Oklahoma County.


I think OKC would also receive a fair amount of benefit from it. It would encourage people to visit downtown OKC for either work or pleasure and would allow people living downtown to get to the suburbs. It might also encourage more companies to locate downtown if they know it will be easy for their employees to make the commute (no parking issues).

I would LOVE to not have to drive. If i could hop on a train and ride in to the office, I would be the first one in line. Trouble for someone like me though, it's only a 15minute commute right now....hard to beat that.

I would LOVE to not have to drive. If i could hop on a train and ride in to the office, I would be the first one in line. Trouble for someone like me though, it's only a 15minute commute right now....hard to beat that.

When I was talking MARTA to the airport in Atlanta I used to think the same thing. The train ride was an hour and I could make the drive in 30 minutes. However, there was a 0% chance someone talking on their cell phone was going to rear-end me on the train. Also, parking was free at the MARTA station.

Kerry, my daughter was on the road an hour and 45 minutes at rush hour, getting from the Perimeter Mall to the University exit on 285. I believe it's 19 miles. MARTA for her was a 30 minute train ride. It took us a couple of years to convince her to use MARTA but once she did she was hooked.

Traffic in OKC continues to increase in volume. If I happen to be on the Broadway Extension at evening rush hour, I get off at 23rd St., because it can take an extra 10 minutes to get to the 6th St. exit. I assume it's from traffic trying to get onto I-40 and people merging to access I-35 to Moore and Norman. The nights of Thunder games it gets even worse. That is the opposite direction of what you would expect traffic to be at its worst at rush hour, so I'm guessing as you're heading north on the Broadway Extension traffic is bad as well at rush hour. I think taking the train, once there is mass transit such as a streetcar to move people away from the hub, will become a popular option for people driving north and south especially.

Many of the projects mentioned here (repaving roads, burrying power lines, etc.) are typically handled with bond issues, and are not really what MAPS is after.

For MAPS I'd consider projects like:
1. More Oklahoma River improvements
2. Expand commuter rail from the downtown transit hub
3. MAPS for Parks- many of our parks could use some serious work
4. More sidewalks - again could be handled with a bond issue. Problem with the current plan is that it only covers major streets that are being resurfaced, not neighborhood streets where we need the sidewalks.
5. Likely will need some upgrades to the Bricktown Ballpark
6. Expand the Bricktown Canal - hopefully by this time, space on the present canal will be maxed out and near capacity

I'd say that a new arena is many years down the line. If it is considered, I would replace the Cox Center with a new arena for the Thunder, and the old OKC Arena could be used for minor league hockey and events like the Big XII women's basketball tournament.

Also, I don't think a football stadium will come to fruition. There's zero chance of OKC getting an NFL team.

Like Kerry, I'd look into car racing. Maybe a NASCAR track. Or something to replace what we lost when the grand stand was demolished.

This last one had a bit more controversial project mix in few were sold on the biggest ticket item but liked some of the smaller ones. Their is no doubt still things we will need to improve. By the time we have the current capital collected, they should be able to prepare a compelling follow up plan.

...Also, I don't think a football stadium will come to fruition. There's zero chance of OKC getting an NFL team.

Like Kerry, I'd look into car racing. Maybe a NASCAR track. Or something to replace what we lost when the grand stand was demolished.

Think the Mayor is of the same sentiment (and expressed so publicly) But he has said he has attempted the NASCAR thing and it just ain't happenin' either (think this came up during the Council meetings and the Grand Prix discussions...that it was significantly cheaper for the City to "build" the Grand Prix" raceway than to construct a full blown stadium for NFL or NASCAR.

Don't even bring up the destroyed Fairgrounds speedway. Actually cost the City more to bull doze it than to make the needed electrical improvements that they used for justification. For all of Cornett's professed lip service to the Speedway folks, to not have a replacement in place was....

Think the Mayor is of the same sentiment (and expressed so publicly) But he has said he has attempted the NASCAR thing and it just ain't happenin' either (think this came up during the Council meetings and the Grand Prix discussions...that it was significantly cheaper for the City to "build" the Grand Prix" raceway than to construct a full blown stadium for NFL or NASCAR.

Don't even bring up the destroyed Fairgrounds speedway. Actually cost the City more to bull doze it than to make the needed electrical improvements that they used for justification. For all of Cornett's professed lip service to the Speedway folks, to not have a replacement in place was....

True, but saved money in the long term, why refurbish a crumbling grandstand when it sits vacant/unused 80% of the year.

Amen

You can forget NASCAR. However, there are multiple other racing circuits that would be better.

Couple of quick thoughts on projects, but I skeptical as to if it would pass given latest issues. And before you ask me where you get my numbers from, they are simply estimates.

1. 30,000 person open air stadium with a track on the inside that could host high school football games, track meets, concerts, etc. ($200 million)
2. Expansion of the transit hub to include part of the Cox Convention Center (considering the new convention center will be under construction or built by that time) ($100 million)
3. Expansion of the streetcar and bus lines and an upgrade of all buses to natural gas. ($250 million)
4. Bricktown canal extension to at least the Myriad Gardens. ($75 million)
5. Light rail N/S from DT to city limits ($375 million)

That would be a Billion dollar plan. The MAPS 3 plan calls for $777 million over 7.75 years or $8.4 million per month. Increasing that to an average of $10 million per month, it would be an 8.5 year plan.

You can forget NASCAR. However, there are multiple other racing circuits that would be better.

True, I would love to see OKC build a NHRA drag stip.

True, but saved money in the long term, why refurbish a crumbling grandstand when it sits vacant/unused 80% of the year.

Fine, but either find a use for the other 80% of the time (hmmmm how often is the Ballpark used when off season?) Or at least have a replacement venue built before you destroy the old one. Would you destroy the Cox when the new Convention Center hasn't been built yet? No.

Couple of quick thoughts on projects, but I skeptical as to if it would pass given latest issues. And before you ask me where you get my numbers from, they are simply estimates.

1. 30,000 person open air stadium with a track on the inside that could host high school football games, track meets, concerts, etc. ($200 million)
2. Expansion of the transit hub to include part of the Cox Convention Center (considering the new convention center will be under construction or built by that time) ($100 million)
3. Expansion of the streetcar and bus lines and an upgrade of all buses to natural gas. ($250 million)
4. Bricktown canal extension to at least the Myriad Gardens. ($75 million)
5. Light rail N/S from DT to city limits ($375 million)

That would be a Billion dollar plan. The MAPS 3 plan calls for $777 million over 7.75 years or $8.4 million per month. Increasing that to an average of $10 million per month, it would be an 8.5 year plan.

i like a lot of your list ..

a 30k stadium would be far far less than 200 mil ... university of central florida just built a 45k seat stadium for 55mil ..

expansion of the hub wherever it is is a great idea .. as are the other transit portions ..

i like a lot of your list ..

a 30k stadium would be far far less than 200 mil ... university of central florida just built a 45k seat stadium for 55mil ..

expansion of the hub wherever it is is a great idea .. as are the other transit portions ..

Yeah, I had no idea. I would think a bare bones stadium with concessions, bathrooms and that is about it wouldn't be too bad, but wasn't sure. Even if you made it $50 million (ten years from now) that would make the total amount $850 million which would take 7.5 years and would leave enough for contingency purposes.

Warren,

Course the inherent problem with building it "bare bones" (that some keep insisting was done with the Ford), is that you have to go back and the taxpayer ends up picking up the tab to pay for what they were told they were getting and should have been done from the beginning (at a higher cost later)

Fine, but either find a use for the other 80% of the time (hmmmm how often is the Ballpark used when off season?) Or at least have a replacement venue built before you destroy the old one. Would you destroy the Cox when the new Convention Center hasn't been built yet? No.

But the Ballpark was profitable and why build a new racetrack when you know it's always going to operate at a loss.

True, I would love to see OKC build a NHRA drag stip.

Call me a rebel. I'd prefer schools.

Call me a rebel. I'd prefer schools.

We don't have schools ?, what area of OKC do you live in ?

When I was talking MARTA to the airport in Atlanta I used to think the same thing. The train ride was an hour and I could make the drive in 30 minutes. However, there was a 0% chance someone talking on their cell phone was going to rear-end me on the train. Also, parking was free at the MARTA station.

When I lived in Denver I took the RTD train to work downtown everyday. I biked a half mile from my apt to the station, getting there usually 5 min. before the train was scheduled to leave. If I got there too late I had to ride a significantly fuller train and it was difficult especially with a bike. The ride itself was 15 min. with stops. Once at the station I then biked a quarter mile to my office. From leaving my house to arriving at the office took me about 30 min. and that was if I got to the station on time and the train was on time. When I made the drive it was about 20 min. so a little better but not much, and the traffic going into downtown was always heavy. Denver also has a lot of bikers and they weave in and out of traffic so it can be nerve-wracking driving around downtown. My office was also located on the outskirts of downtown so I could park in the neighborhood for free; if I was in the CBD there would be ZERO free parking and many employers won't pay for it either. It would've been easier if I didn't have the bike and lived closer to the light rail station, and if I left earlier so I could actually sit down and read my emails, the morning news on my phone, listen to music, etc. With a bike I always had to stand up for that 15 min. ride and the train was packed. Just my experience with public transit...

But the Ballpark was profitable and why build a new racetrack when you know it's always going to operate at a loss.

Do we know that for a fact? How profitable is it when it sits empty and unused? If it is profitable, why are the new owners tarping off 4,000 seats? The race track can be profitable too. Just takes the right mix of venue, operators etc to make it happen. One of the reasons Bennett gave for not paying for his own arena, he doesn't think they can be run at a profit, so he wanted the City to shoulder that burden. Even though the Ford has been run at an operational profit.

How about the citizens just have a decrease in taxes.... I like that!!!

How about the citizens just have a decrease in taxes.... I like that!!!

That 1 cent on the dollar for tangible city improvements is about the only tax that I'm glad to pay.

How about the citizens just have a decrease in taxes.... I like that!!!

You could always just move out of any city limits on a farm and become totally self supporting. That would certainly reduce your tax liabilities and you wouldn't have to worry about paying those extra taxes or enjoying any benefits that the taxes might provide.

I have been thinking a lot about this lately and I wonder what it will take for another MAPS to pass. My guess is the majority of the money would have to go to transit since that was what was so popular in the last questionaire, yet only got 17% of the funding whereas the convention center was the least popular and got 32% of the funding.

Let's do a nice round number of $1 billion over 10 years.
The public transit study said it would cost $125M for added rail lines, retrofitting the lines and Santa Fe station upgrades.
$200M to finish the convention center.
$100M for more and better buses and better technology for all transportation.
$175M for 7-9 miles of streetcar.
$125M for a 20-25,000 person outdoor stadium for soccer and smaller football games.
$275M for other things, (ie canal extension, more wellness centers, etc)

Then, since the GO bond issue will be coming due around the same time, devote almost another billion to infrastructure so people won't complain about roads not being included. This is where the police and firefighters could also be taken care of as well as updating of our current parks. Thoughts?

I concur with that last thing I read about police & firefighters. Will definitely see more 'vote yes' signs if they're included.

$900 Million for a new light rail (does that sound right?) :)

$900 Million for a new light rail (does that sound right?) :)

i'm right there with you... and i think 900 million would make a good start.

Until ALL Maps I, II, III projects are completed as promised I say the publics pocketbook slams shut. The powers that be have not fully delivered on past promises. I have zero faith they will deliver on future promises.

delete the $200M for the convention center to bring Maps IV to $800M and I'm with that.

We could also ask the suburbs to contribute this time since/if they would get commuter rail; perhaps Edmond + Norman + MWC (and maybe Purcell + Guthrie + Shawnee to really cover the metro). As for the Commuter Rail operations, I'd say let ACOG do a regional tax increment to help fund it and regional bus.

Until ALL Maps I, II, III projects are completed as promised I say the publics pocketbook slams shut. The powers that be have not fully delivered on past promises. I have zero faith they will deliver on future promises.

I disagree, OKC has to keep the momentum going. OKC is still FAR FAR behind peer cities and there still needs to be significant capital investment.

Get to MAPS V and then you could think about taking a break.