I thought I would post some pics of Robinson and try and stir up a discussion on how people feel about including it in the streetcar system. Right now it seems pretty certain that Robinson and Broadway will make up a transit mall that serves the bulk of downtown--a good north/south spine. Most people will initially think, "Robinson? Meh."

I think Robinson is great, and I didn't initially think that. It's only great when combined with Broadway. So the streetcar goes down Broadway one way, and then comes back up Robinson a block over. The rails should be placed on the inside of the block between them so that users don't always have to cross the street. There is even a possibility it seems to totally rework the streetscape along Robinson to make it user-friendly for streetcar, with wayfinding systems, possibly even little foot imprints in between Broadway stations and corresponding Robinson stations a block over, just for people who are really so clueless they can't go a block over without getting lost.

I think Broadway is an obvious. Broadway must be the main streetcar corridor, but there are advantages to doing couplets. Plus it spreads the service and spreads the development impact, which is important. It gives way to the most interesting TOD possibilities as well.

And there is some good urban fabric along Robinson, especially as you come in from Heritage Hills, where Robinson is a perfect candidate for expanding the system north to Uptown and the really busy 23rd Street corridor, which I think can serve as a great backbone for the northside.

Just some cell phone pics from J. Park all the way down to 4th or so. These are coming down Robinson:

http://img17.imageshack.us/img17/4369/20110122173845.jpg
Median in J. Park certainly conducive for streetcar. Very good density along Robinson between 23rd and 36th.

http://img819.imageshack.us/img819/64/20110122174037.jpg
Median in Heritage Hills also conducive. Retaining existing landscaping would be a challenge. It switches from 2 rows of trees to 1 center stripe ahead in this pic.

http://img822.imageshack.us/img822/5236/20110122174111.jpg
After 18th or so the residential density begins to rise.

http://img683.imageshack.us/img683/3825/20110122174150.jpg
There's sort of a funky lane configuration where it switches to one-way (which it will need to be 2-way so that a double track doesn't go against the flow of traffic).

http://img143.imageshack.us/img143/8949/20110122174210.jpg
Multi-family properties on the left being renovated right now (the large bldg is being gutted).

http://img810.imageshack.us/img810/6575/20110122174254.jpg
Attractive storefronts (including the Beatnix Cafe) frame the 13th/Robinson interchange, as well as the Garage Lofts.

http://img824.imageshack.us/img824/2183/20110122174324.jpg
We all know how this stretch is littered with great old churches. 4 good ones in this pic alone.

http://img819.imageshack.us/img819/8538/20110122174407.jpg
Unique architecture and buildings under renovation (mixed-use intended) at 10th/Robinson. Nice skyline view looms ahead.

http://img593.imageshack.us/img593/8099/20110122174613.jpg
Getting closer to downtown, the urban fabric is actually more decent than us locals realize. We take it for granted.

http://img143.imageshack.us/img143/8632/20110122174637.jpg
It passes the Memorial here. The entrance stuck in time makes a good landmark along the route, and there are opportunities for infill across the street.

Then we all know the drill south of 4th in downtown, where there was once a great streetwall before SandRidge destroyed it, but there is still some alright urbanism and a lot of huge employers, where downtown is definitely the core. CityPlace is becoming mixed-use and FNC will probably become mixed-use eventually. The streetcar directly serving it probably increases the chance of a Dallas Mercantile-like rehabilitation project.

It's just hard to take pics around Robinson and 4th because of all the guards around the post office (another great piece of urban fabric) and the destruction going on at SandRidge, not to mention the streets being a mess.

But I think it could be a good corridor. Obviously it doesn't get preference over Broadway. But there is some real potential here, and it seems like a decent enough stretch currently. Thoughts on Robinson?

That's the corridor.

I put 'no it does not' because none of the answers defined what I think it should encompass. Yes, but only as a leg, maybe from Robert S Kerr to Reno. That's it.

What do you think "it" (assuming you mean the streetcar line as opposed to Robinson) should encompass?

I think Walker and Classen need to be another N/S

The problem with Robinson and Broadway is that north of 23rd they are roads to nowhere because of I-235. It would require spending millions on the equivalent of a dead-end road with no chance of expansion . South of 23rd is a different story. If it turned and went to OCU or the Capitol it might work but there are better ways to get to both of those destinations.

The problem with Robinson and Broadway is that north of 23rd they are roads to nowhere because of I-235. It would require spending millions on the equivalent of a dead-end road with no chance of expansion . South of 23rd is a different story. If it turned and went to OCU or the Capitol it might work but there are better ways to get to both of those destinations.

what if they only went as far north as 13th ..and then turned in a different direction

what if they only went as far north as 13th ..and then turned in a different direction

I think it should make the turn at 10th and go towards the Plaza District and St. Anthonys. I would like to see Central Hub, Bricktown, Medical Complex, and Capitol on their own line.

what if they only went as far north as 13th ..and then turned in a different direction

If that were so, then they can only go west as eastward runs you into the "at-grade" railroad tracks of which we can not go across. There's no room to build a bridge for the streetcar or tunnel to go under, as I-235 is "depressed" and adjacent. Plus, no budget for such a project if it were practical.

Westward is easy from the transit mall and does get you to important destinations such as serving greater Midtown and reaching out to Plaza District, Asian District, and OCU. Plus it intersects with key bus routes.

Yes, going due north allows you to interface with 23rd street of which you could easily reach the capitol or Asian District by the direction you turn. Paseo would yes indeed be a terminus because of the high due north as has been noted.

You know, just throwing this out there- Paseo would be a cool destination for a historic streetcar running as demand developed. It would be a cool place to house it too for people to gaze at and use it to "bus people in" when they have their festival and major events where parking is difficult. I am saying running it on occasion. Modern would serve the neighborhood most of the time.

I think it should make the turn at 10th and go towards the Plaza District and St. Anthonys. I would like to see Central Hub, Bricktown, Medical Complex, and Capitol on their own line.

10th is out because of the traffic circle. And there is not support for removing it as it serves an important function. 11th/13th are better.

10th is out because of the traffic circle. And there is not support for removing it as it serves an important function. 11th/13th are better.

I look at streeetcar routes in Europe and they go through traffic circles all the time. Even the one in Tampa goes through a traffic circle.

Here is just a sample:
Tampa
http://i1178.photobucket.com/albums/x378/KerryinJax/Tampa1.jpg

Orleans, FR (here are just 3 of 18)
http://i1178.photobucket.com/albums/x378/KerryinJax/Orelans1.jpg

http://i1178.photobucket.com/albums/x378/KerryinJax/Orelans2.jpg

http://i1178.photobucket.com/albums/x378/KerryinJax/Orelans4.jpg


Oslo, Norway

http://i1178.photobucket.com/albums/x378/KerryinJax/Oslo1.jpg

http://i1178.photobucket.com/albums/x378/KerryinJax/Oslo2.jpg

I look at streeetcar routes in Europe and they go through traffic circles all the time. Even the one in Tampa goes through a traffic circle.

Here is just a sample:
Tampa


Sure, absolutely, if the traffic circle is big enough to make the circumference- ours is not without grinding screeching wheels; or if the circle is signalized to stop traffic when the train approaches.

Going across on 11th is far less invasive than the modifications that we would have to make to our existing circle.

Plus, I saw what the construction zone did to businesses in that area. I distinctly recall that two businesses didn't make it and several others lost half of their revenue. I'm not saying that the result wasn't worth it in the long run, but it was a painful project that "crippled" that area.

As a member of the MAPS Transit Subcommittee, it is our job to look out for the citizens who may be adversely impacted by our project. Everybody will have to endure some degree of pain while the project is built. But we are trying to minimize that with new expedited construction techniques. These new techniques can allow for one block to be completed in 14 -21 days.

That circle does not fall within the less invasive construction methods that we have at our disposal. Much less even "removing it" and putting signals in. It would be extremely detrimental to Midtown during the construction phases.

Signalizing the intersection would a bunch of ugly poles and quite frankly, I think that the train would be in peril of people who still don't know how to go around that circle and yield properly. In Europe, such circles are very much a part of the driving culture. Ours is still a novelty.

I will gladly, publicly state that I will rally against messing with it. What an absolute waste of recently expended taxpayer money for the circle on top of the idea. Sorry, this is just one of the few opinions I'm pretty certain about.

Let me just say that the only reason for posting the photos north of 23rd was to show how the really good median continues. The median represents a good opportunity to lay a track and have a streetcar-ready environment from the get-go, similar to St. Charles Avenue. It would be very classy. I agree that expansion opportunities north of 23rd along Robinson aren't that great, but it does get you to the Paseo as well as any other route.

My personal feeling on it of course is that the route should be the transit mall, then cut through Heritage Hills on Robinson, and then go all the way down 23rd, which could be such a great corridor as a defining stretch of OKC. The question of this thread though, is do you you all think that Robinson through downtown and midtown is a good streetcar stretch? If not what is a good solution for Robinson? How does Robinson relate to or not relate to Broadway? Just talking about Robinson and all things Robinson here.

I don't know what Walker and traffic circles have to do with that. There will not be a traffic circle along Robinson.

If that were so, then they can only go west as eastward runs you into the "at-grade" railroad tracks of which we can not go across. There's no room to build a bridge for the streetcar or tunnel to go under, as I-235 is "depressed" and adjacent. Plus, no budget for such a project if it were practical.

Westward is easy from the transit mall and does get you to important destinations such as serving greater Midtown and reaching out to Plaza District, Asian District, and OCU. Plus it intersects with key bus routes.

Yes, going due north allows you to interface with 23rd street of which you could easily reach the capitol or Asian District by the direction you turn. Paseo would yes indeed be a terminus because of the high due north as has been noted.

You know, just throwing this out there- Paseo would be a cool destination for a historic streetcar running as demand developed. It would be a cool place to house it too for people to gaze at and use it to "bus people in" when they have their festival and major events where parking is difficult. I am saying running it on occasion. Modern would serve the neighborhood most of the time.


The problem with the Paseo is that NW 30th is a lot further than NW 23rd or NW 16th. And in order to do that, you'd completely bypass 23rd, maybe give it A stop, which 23rd could easily be much more than, whereas the Paseo really is just one stop.

Maybe a good topic for another thread could be Paseo v. Uptown v. Plaza. I don't mean to be a thread nazi at all, I guess there's no reason not to fan out from the one thread now that we have this whole transit forum now, which was a great idea!

And Kerry, don't take it the wrong way. I appreciate the ideas you bring forth to the conversation and the project. Its just that I have had far too many people come up to me and tell me that we "should just rip it out." I will be and am totally against it. Plus, 11th is completely close enough to benefit the area and easily drop down to connect directly into St. Anthony's if such a connection is desired by them..

And Kerry, don't take it the wrong way. I appreciate the ideas you bring forth to the conversation and the project. Its just that I have had far too many people come up to me and tell me that we "should just rip it out." I will be and am totally against it. Plus, 11th is completely close enough to benefit the area and easily drop down to connect directly into St. Anthony's if such a connection is desired by them..

No problem UP. I don't want the traffic circle removed either. However, signalization at these interesection is minimial. I'll checkout the 11th and 13th Street options.

This is a picture of one of them from Orleans, FR.

http://i1178.photobucket.com/albums/x378/KerryinJax/Orleans20.jpg

Mods - we hijackd Spartan's Robinson thread enough. Can these last few posts be moved to the streetcar thread. Sorry.

No problem UP. I don't want the traffic circle removed either. However, signalization at these interesection is minimial. I'll checkout the 11th and 13th Street options.

This is a picture of one of them from Orleans, FR.

http://i1178.photobucket.com/albums/x378/KerryinJax/Orleans20.jpg

Mods - we hijackd Spartan's Robinson thread enough. Can these last few posts be moved to the streetcar thread. Sorry.

This picture that you found is actually a great way to explain how it might be done if it had to be done.

Here is an example of the 13th / 11th configuration.

771

I went and looked at 11th a few weeks ago and am totally on board with it as an option for Midtown access. It's a less busy street in ternms of traffic, creates more of a couplet configuration than 10th and 13th and has plenty of opportunity for TOD while bringing passengers to the heart of Midtown (Plaza Cout) and very close to St. Anthony's. I don't know why we should interfere with our existing traffic circle when there's such an acceptable option.

One of the things I took into consideration when I was building my vision was scalability; could I expand the system while at the same time reusing as much existing track as I could. This served 3 purposes; 1) it reduced cost, 2) it increased service times the closer I got to downtown, and 3) it allowed for expansion of the system without abandoning existing track.

With that in mind here is my issue with a double track version of 11th street as a gateway to Midtown. 11th Street does not line up well with Broadway nor does it go to Classen. The couplet route UP used opts to go through a residential area to get to Classen instead of going by an employer with over 1,000 employees and hundreds of visitors a day operating 24/7/365 rain, snow, or sunshine.

If this streetcar was a private business and you told the bank you were going to run your streetcar past some homes versus a major regional employer you probably wouldn't get the loan. I think the reality is this streetcar, if it goes to Midtown at all, is going to run on 10th Street right past St. Anthony Hospital, traffic circle or no traffic circle, and make its way to Classen.

With that in mind here is my issue with a double track version of 11th street as a gateway to Midtown.

I don't follow this as it isn't proposed as a double track on 11th. It's coupled with 13th.

11th Street does not line up well with Broadway nor does it go to Classen.

11th doesn't need to line up well with Broadway. The northbound line is making a lefthand turn on to 11th at the historic Lawyer's Building. The right hand turn to go south on Broadway is at 13th. Both places we can make turns. A easy right hand turn is difficult on 10th.

The couplet route UP used opts to go through a residential area to get to Classen instead of going by an employer with over 1,000 employees and hundreds of visitors a day operating 24/7/365 rain, snow, or sunshine.

We would abut their property and have easy access to a redefined pedestrian connection to their new main entrance via Dewey.

If this streetcar was a private business and you told the bank you were going to run your streetcar past some homes versus a major regional employer you probably wouldn't get the loan.

What homes? Study more carefully what abuts 11th/13th. One block away from the new Main Entrance to St. Anthony's, Villa Theresa School, sandwiched by popular restaurants, potential redeveloped housing at the apt building on 11th/Walker, elderly housing, Harvey Lofts, Sieber Hotel Apts, Garage Lofts, Floral & Hardy, Beatnix, and a huge Urban Renewal TOD opportunity at 13th/Dewey. Tannenbaum proposes around 230 apts. Tons of churches too. Lots of empty lots and two blocks away from the Medical District cooridor, when people claim they will walk 3.

I think the reality is this streetcar, if it goes to Midtown at all, is going to run on 10th Street right past St. Anthony Hospital, traffic circle or no traffic circle, and make its way to Classen.

What makes you think that? Certainly there hasn't been a big ground swell of support to dig up that circle and disrupt the businesses in Midtown.

Give 10th a rest. You talk about conserving track and connectivity to Classen. The couplet travels as "the crow flies" and conserves track. Plus, going accross on 10th means tearing out a 2nd newly installed circle that the city put in at St. Anthony's request.

Give 10th a rest. You talk about conserving track and connectivity to Classen. The couplet travels as "the crow flies" and conserves track. Plus, going accross on 10th means tearing out a 2nd newly installed circle that the city put in at St. Anthony's request.

I just think the MAPS III committee and consultants are going to suggest 10th St, if phase 1 goes to Midtown at all. They don't have to take out the traffic circles, they can just lay the track right through them. Like I said, it is done all over the world.

Kerry, two things:

1. Not every path will be a double track. It's quite likely that it will actually mostly be single tracks coupled with a matching single track a block over, or perhaps even two, and it's also quite likely that any routes venturing beyond the downtown vicinity (north of 13th) will be single track just because those areas don't need rapid service at first and it can be expanded later. I've seen a lot of your posts over the years and on this topic I'm curious about your insistence on the double tracks, which you commonly back up not with an argument for double tracks everywhere, but just by saying it's how it will be. What have you seen that makes double tracks the obvious solution?

2. Keep in mind who you're talking to. When you say things like, "I just think the streetcar will end up going down 10th," you're saying that to the chairman of the committee who ultimately decides the route (and they must be pretty close to a decision at this point, too). So I think Jeff knows where it will end up going, or he's close to that now.

Jeff:

How would you feel if I started another poll with districts and people can choose the top 3 or 4 that they think NEED to be served. I was just curious about thoughts on Robinson here, since I had the pics of the median and all, but realized perhaps some poll numbers on here and other sites could be helpful to you in terms of gathering data.. to pit Deep Deuce against the Arts District or 23rd against the Plaza District, Bricktown against Midtown, etc. How would you think such a poll should go?

I'm not Jeff, but I'd be interested in people's opinions, ideas. And, if you've got a district you're interested in, tell us why. Remember that ridership is important, TOD is important, stops are important. It's not just a ride to somewhere, but a ride through somewhere. Ideally, we'll have riders who live near the streetcar line, work near the streetcar line or recreate near the streetcar line. And, is there anything on this route that specifically would be of interest to tourists, remembering that downtown is a focal point for tourists/convention-goers, festival attenders, etc but they might like to leave downtown to go somewhere else interesting. How would you get to your district, remembering that simplicity is key for riders. Ideally, the route is as straight a line as possible so that people can easily locate it. Could it be single track early on before ridership increases? Where would you put a couplet?

2. Keep in mind who you're talking to. When you say things like, "I just think the streetcar will end up going down 10th," you're saying that to the chairman of the committee who ultimately decides the route (and they must be pretty close to a decision at this point, too). So I think Jeff knows where it will end up going, or he's close to that now.


To clarify:

Jeff is a member but not the chair of the MAPS 3 Modern Streetcar and Transit Subcommittee. The Chair and Vice-Chair of that committee are Nathaniel Harding and Zane Boatright, respectively, both of whom are members of the MAPS 3 Citizens Advisory Board. Jeff is also a member of the COTPA Alternatives Analysis Steering Committee, Chair of the ACOG Regional Transit Dialogue Public Outreach Subcommittee and Education Director of the Modern Transit Project.

Although some members of the MAPS subcommittee have presented system map concepts, all showing the 11th and 13th couplet, this part of the route has not been formally discussed. It will be specifically bought up at the next Alternative Analysis Steering Committee meeting (now scheduled for this coming Thursday, February 17th at the Oklahoma City Community Foundation at 10th and Broadway from 3:30 to 5 pm). It will most likely be discussed in detail at the next MAPS subcommittee meeting, Wednesday, February 23rd at 420 West Main.

Just for clarification, I serve on nearly all the transit committees, but do not Chair MAPS Transit. Nathaniel Garding does, who also serves on the main Citizens Advisory Board.


Spartan, I guess I would be more interested in a "Pete White" type of challenge. Rank these-

If there are funds for a 1b extension, where would you like to see the streetcar go?

Paseo
Asian
Capitol
Plaza
Farmers Mkt/West River Area
Greater Core2Shore/Boathouses

Rank them basically.

I am 100% for the 11th/13th route, think it would help that area of Midtown fill in rapidly. Lots and lots of parking lots and old buildings for infill, plus several existing apts that would provide ridership.

I think:

1. Paseo (because it may include Uptown and Jpark)
2. Plaza (for residential connectivity and to connect DT to the amazing energy of that neighborhood)
3. Asian District (to link downtown to a busy commercial/retail area and maybe set up for Classen line)

Spartan, I am well aware of who Jeff is - that is why I am talking to him. However, don't think that whatever alignment come out of this effort is going to be exacly what gets built once the actual route is announced. I wasn't a city planner for very long but I was one long enough to know nothing gets built as planned - especially when the public is involved. 99.99% of the people in OKC are not involved in this right now (even though they are invited to the meetings). When the headline in the Oklahoman reads "Streetcar Track Route Announced" you are going to get 100% participation and Jeff will be asking, "Where were all these people for the last 2 years when were planning this".

If a streetcar line is such a good idea, why was the original one ripped out in the late 1940's. I don't think a streetcar line would be cost-effective and the tax payers would have to subsdize the few riders that use it.

Just for clarification, I serve on nearly all the transit committees, but do not Chair MAPS Transit. Nathaniel Garding does, who also serves on the main Citizens Advisory Board.


Spartan, I guess I would be more interested in a "Pete White" type of challenge. Rank these-

If there are funds for a 1b extension, where would you like to see the streetcar go?

Paseo
Asian
Capitol
Plaza
Farmers Mkt/West River Area
Greater Core2Shore/Boathouses

Rank them basically.

Nathaniel Harding. Sorry, big thumbs, small I-phone. lol

If a streetcar line is such a good idea, why was the original one ripped out in the late 1940's. I don't think a streetcar line would be cost-effective and the tax payers would have to subsdize the few riders that use it.

Because thats when urban sprawl really got going and people started depending on cheap liquid hydrocarbons. As the price of oil goes up, people will come back to the urban core.

If a streetcar line is such a good idea, why was the original one ripped out in the late 1940's. I don't think a streetcar line would be cost-effective and the tax payers would have to subsdize the few riders that use it.

The majority of the taxpayers considered that point, and disagreed with you, or at least thought it a valid enough project it was a reasonable use of tax dollars. That was a big part of MAPs3. Indeed it was likely the part with the most positive buzz of all. And, to top it off, OKC is having others from outside OKC to help make it happen by using the sales tax funds. Not every community that decides it wants to do something manages to get others to help carry the cost of it. As to why OKC ever left streetcars behind, well, all I can say is I don't agree with every decision my parents and their friends made back in my hometown when i was growing up. Sometimes, folks just act on short term and not long term. The various MAPs plans seem to take the longer term view, including the utility of the streetcars.

Just the view of an outsider peeking in, and occasionally contributing to the progress.

unclepete, the original streetcar was removed by General Motors so they could sell buses.

Just for clarification, I serve on nearly all the transit committees, but do not Chair MAPS Transit. Nathaniel Garding does, who also serves on the main Citizens Advisory Board.


Spartan, I guess I would be more interested in a "Pete White" type of challenge. Rank these-

If there are funds for a 1b extension, where would you like to see the streetcar go?

Paseo
Asian
Capitol
Plaza
Farmers Mkt/West River Area
Greater Core2Shore/Boathouses

Rank them basically.

Right, sorry I overlooked the committees, I was thinking of the MTP I suppose. Anyway Jeff, my question/concern is this:

Do you personally not see Uptown 23rd as a good potential line in its own? I noticed you even include the Capitol, Farmer's Market, and C2S and not even Uptown. And I'm talking about Uptown from Robinson to Classen, which is a district with just as much cultural stuff (less concentrated, though) as Plaza or Paseo. Just curious.

My ranking, though, would be..

1 Plaza
2 Paseo
3 Farmer's Market
4 Core2Shore
5 Asian
6 Capitol

...of the choices you offered. I'm just not gung-ho on the Asian District because they have gotten a ton of emphasis from Planning already and it just results in more tan strip centers. That's all they want to build there. And it, like Paseo, is also really far away. I like Classen between 13th and 26th though, which has tons of potential (the Asian owners haven't torn it all down or set fire to it yet). I guess an Asian District line would probably hit that area. Of course, OKC residents shouldn't have to fund anything along Lincoln Blvd on their own, which I guess I see as the likely situation for the first phase and first 6 miles funded by MAPS3.

_______________

I just see Robinson and 23rd as a really strategic pair that make a good line.

unclepete, the original streetcar was removed by General Motors so they could sell buses.

Do we really know that GM was responsible for the loss of the streetcar specifically here in OKC? A while back in a similar discussion the wikipedia page for the Great American streetcar scandal (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_American_streetcar_scandal) was linked here, and I noticed this little line in the middle of the article:

"It has been estimated that nationwide, the ultimate reach of the alleged conspirators extended to only about 10 percent of all transit systems—sixty-odd out of some six hundred—and yet virtually all the other 90 percent also got rid of trolleys (as happened with many of the tramcar systems in the British Isles and France)."

If this is true and GM only killed about 10% of the streetcar systems in the US, are we certain that ours was one of the ones they killed?

Just to clarify in advance, I am not in any way opposed to the new streetcar system coming with Maps3 (I'm rather excited about it in fact), I'm just curious about the real fate of the old system.

OKC specific might be a little hard to find. There doesn't seem to be a lot of public information, photos, and record that have survived to this date (which I have always found odd). The Tampa system carried something like 15,000,000 people in the last year of operation and had a peak of 26,000,000 people in the mid-20s. The streetcar was replaced by a bus system that was viewed as more modern and efficient. The bus system has never even achieved half of the ridership the streeetcar had despite having a population 5X higher to draw from. Now whether it was GM that bought the OKC system and closed it, or if the City (or some other entity) closed it, it was shutdown so a bus system could be established and the bus system has failed to deliver.

I may have dreamed this but think I read somewhere that even though OKC had 180 miles of streetcars, they were never or rarely profitable and those entities that built them went bankrupt????

Steve, Doug, Urban can you give any insight?

I may have dreamed this but think I read somewhere that even though OKC had 180 miles of streetcars, they were never or rarely profitable and those entities that built them went bankrupt????

Steve, Doug, Urban can you give any insight?

For the most part, streetcars were loss leaders - just like streets and freeways are. The pay-off is the development that occurs along the lines. When a new subdivision is built the development company puts in the roads, not because they plan to make money of the road, but so they can sell houses along the new road. As soon as the homes are sold they turn the streets over to the local government agency for maintenance. The same thing happened with the streetcars in the early days. The people building the subdivisions around the city built the streetcars so they could sell homes.

I'm having a hard time seeing why the Plaza District is #1 on the list. I'd rather see the streetcar connect along arterial pathways that serve a larger population of residents and workers. The Capital is a much larger cultural destination than any quirky niche-neighborhood.

krisb,

Don't disagree but the thinking on a line to the Capital is deserving of State funds

I'm having a hard time seeing why the Plaza District is #1 on the list. I'd rather see the streetcar connect along arterial pathways that serve a larger population of residents and workers. The Capital is a much larger cultural destination than any quirky niche-neighborhood.

Kris, my thinking is somewhat related to some of the earlier thinking on the Capitol by the subcommittee (not sure where they stand now), but I agree that the Capitol is a needed line. I'm just not sure it's a cultural destination. The streetcar system will be utilized by locals, not tourists from small towns or out of state who haven't seen it before.

It just makes more sense for a phase one. There's less of a gap. Between the medical area and downtown, there's a lot of nothingness to have to bridge, which makes no sense for phase one. Also, there's not a lot of residential that way. By going to the Plaza or Paseo, you actually can reach out to residential neighborhoods that are more connected to downtown. Also I wouldn't underestimate the "quicky-niche" aspect of the Plaza or Paseo--which has the potential to translate to evening ridership going both ways. The Capitol would be a strictly commuter line. Plus, the Capitol and medical area are a slam-dunk for federal funding, which we need as much of as possible. The Capitol just doesn't make any sense given all those things for Phase 1.

Spartan....Why are we not seeing more of an argument / reasoning for 23rd street as a TOP choice for streetcar?

Plaza, Paseo,? To me they don't come close to what is seen along 23rd. In fact I think if you were to combine the two areas they still fall short of 23rd street. I have seen your map and you do have a double track on 23rd between I-44 and Robinson as it should be.

I am placing 23rd street as the #1, #2, and #3 top spots for the very next addition. Again Plaza, Paseo, neighborhood destinations but they do not add up to 23rd street.

Urban Pioneer..... I would really like to see your opinion as to why Uptown 23rd is not being discussed more?

So to answer the question on Robinson, I am one of the few that (3) that answered Robinson should be the "north and south spine". I don't need to see the Broadway transit mall couplet that is being planned, double track on Robinson north / south looks good in itself.

23rd St., I believe, is the most active bus line in the city. If the streetcar line were to go to the Paseo, it would intersect 23rd St. at Robinson, where you could pick up a bus going anywhere you want to go on 23rd. It would seem to me that the kind of people who would shop 23rd would not be averse to riding a bus, and you've got very expensive duplication of services if you run a streetcar where there is already a very used bus line.

The thing I like about the Paseo route, and always have, is that by the time you get to the Paseo, you're close to Crown Heights. You've gone through the Jefferson Park neighborhood, which is being gentrified, but could still use some attention. The Paseo is an attractive area that has art galleries, shops, a few restaurants, a well known festival and makes a nice, unique destination both for visitors and locals. I'm certainly not stuck on it as the only possible destination, but think it deserves consideration.

I think it's going to be hard to ignore Broadway. To me, it is the entrance to downtown. I really like Robinson as part of the route, but the Broadway-Robinson couplet, to me, is the best way to encourage transit use and TOD. Jeff has said multiple times that the planners in Portland have said that they've learned the couplet system is an excellent one and I believe we should use their experience as a guide.

Urban Pioneer..... I would really like to see your opinion as to why Uptown 23rd is not being discussed more?

Well 1st, define "Uptown 23rd." Are we essentially talking about the Tower Theater?

I think the best response to all of you is that many members on the subcommittee are reaching the conclusion that "Bricktown to Midtown" is Phase 1. To translate that a bit more specifically, about 4 miles of track connecting the hub location area to St. Anthony's campus.

Several of us are thinking, leave the remaining estimated 2 miles in reserve to go into a "Phase 1b." This idea of "stretching" MAPS streetcar goals came directly from the skirmish with Council Members concerned with "reaching outside of downtown" to make a major current/future transit connections in a strategic neighborhood. Many of us think that a Phase 1b is orienting itself towards 23rd/Classen.

From that point, the streetcar could easily be expanded via a "Phase 2" to OCU, Plaza "on the return trip", or across "Uptown 23rd" to the Capitol thus coming within 4 blocks of the Paseo neighborhood.

Such "Phase 2" extensions could be paid for with several scenarios- our bids coming in less and we have more money in MAPS Transit, money is diverted from something else in MAPS that comes in under budget, a future bond issue, or Federal Matching funds.

If you can get to 23rd and Classen, you directly interface with the two busiest existing bus lines in the city and you set up a direct interface for a future BRT line (Bus Rapid Transit) as depicted in the 2005 Fixed guide-way Study) that would continue up Classen and further up NW Expressway into the NW side of town.

Add the Adventure Line at a modest price to that equation and you get a "giant V" of MAPS sponsored rail connectivity that stretches across several Wards and connects NW central, downtown, to far NE. Plus, going across on 23rd in the future connects the two far points of the "V".

I am going to "re-post" this on the main thread if you want to continue the conversation over there.

23rd St., I believe, is the most active bus line in the city. If the streetcar line were to go to the Paseo, it would intersect 23rd St. at Robinson, where you could pick up a bus going anywhere you want to go on 23rd. It would seem to me that the kind of people who would shop 23rd would not be averse to riding a bus, and you've got very expensive duplication of services if you run a streetcar where there is already a very used bus line.


This is making my case for 23rd street being the top priority, once we reach out of downtown / midtown.

If 23rd street is the most active bus route in Okc, wouldn't a streetcar route be ideal?

Although, I am not suggesting we duplicate services, I am suggesting we would do away with bus service the best we can and replace them with streetcar along 23rd.


I think it's going to be hard to ignore Broadway. To me, it is the entrance to downtown. I really like Robinson as part of the route, but the Broadway-Robinson couplet, to me, is the best way to encourage transit use and TOD. Jeff has said multiple times that the planners in Portland have said that they've learned the couplet system is an excellent one and I believe we should use their experience as a guide.

I am not against Broadway, it is my favorite downtown street and will be a beautiful streetcar route. I like the couplet system I was only stating my choice of the poll question. You are saying Robinson is good because of Broadway, I am saying Robinson is good with or without Broadway.

I understand what you're saying okclee. But, who knows when we would have the money to run the streetcar along a significant portion of 23rd St. So, would people get off the bus, get on the streetcar and when they reach the end, get on the bus again? How many people would go from downtown or a stop along the downtown route to 23rd St. at this point in time? That could definitely happen if 23rd St. becomes a great destination. But right now, both the Paseo and the Plaza seem like more interesting destinations, to me. Not saying it won't become one, but currently I think it has less to offer and we already have transit well established along that route. That's just my opinion, of course, and I wouldn't be averse to changing my mind at some point in time.

If and when we get the streetcar route to 23rd and Classen, the decision on where to go from there may be an easier one.

Also, it is good that we have so many up and coming new areas to argue over as to which is a better destination.

If and when we get the streetcar route to 23rd and Classen, the decision on where to go from there may be an easier one.

Also, it is good that we have so many up and coming new areas to argue over as to which is a better destination.

Personally, I agree with both of your sentiments. One real problem with going to Capitol directly off of Robinson is that the ridership is fairly speculative at this point and it would be 8-6 pm at best. Therefore, your almost compelled to extend the line to Paseo to get a diverse ridership early in the morning and later in the evening to justify a broader operational schedule. Say 6:00 AM to 11:00 PM for example.

The same argument holds somewhat true for 23rd Classen. tying into the bus line and interfacing with a future BRT does provide a somewhat predictable ridership rate. However, the goldmine is OCU students. Tapping into the campus a bit more directly almost assures a completely successful MAPS streetcar system. The Plaza District can be easily "picked up" on the "return" down Blackwelder and back to Classen on 16th.

We are going to investigate all of this further and try to "run some" additional numbers.

Well 1st, define "Uptown 23rd." Are we essentially talking about the Tower Theater?

I think the best response to all of you is that many members on the subcommittee are reaching the conclusion that "Bricktown to Midtown" is Phase 1. To translate that a bit more specifically, about 4 miles of track connecting the hub location area to St. Anthony's campus.

Several of us are thinking, leave the remaining estimated 2 miles in reserve to go into a "Phase 1b." This idea of "stretching" MAPS streetcar goals came directly from the skirmish with Council Members concerned with "reaching outside of downtown" to make a major current/future transit connections in a strategic neighborhood. Many of us think that a Phase 1b is orienting itself towards 23rd/Classen.

From that point, the streetcar could easily be expanded via a "Phase 2" to OCU, Plaza "on the return trip", or across "Uptown 23rd" to the Capitol thus coming within 4 blocks of the Paseo neighborhood.

Such "Phase 2" extensions could be paid for with several scenarios- our bids coming in less and we have more money in MAPS Transit, money is diverted from something else in MAPS that comes in under budget, a future bond issue, or Federal Matching funds.

If you can get to 23rd and Classen, you directly interface with the two busiest existing bus lines in the city and you set up a direct interface for a future BRT line (Bus Rapid Transit) as depicted in the 2005 Fixed guide-way Study) that would continue up Classen and further up NW Expressway into the NW side of town.

Add the Adventure Line at a modest price to that equation and you get a "giant V" of MAPS sponsored rail connectivity that stretches across several Wards and connects NW central, downtown, to far NE. Plus, going across on 23rd in the future connects the two far points of the "V".

I am going to "re-post" this on the main thread if you want to continue the conversation over there.

But Jeff, I know you aren't ready to endorse a failed concept like BRT...


I understand what you're saying okclee. But, who knows when we would have the money to run the streetcar along a significant portion of 23rd St. So, would people get off the bus, get on the streetcar and when they reach the end, get on the bus again? How many people would go from downtown or a stop along the downtown route to 23rd St. at this point in time? That could definitely happen if 23rd St. becomes a great destination. But right now, both the Paseo and the Plaza seem like more interesting destinations, to me. Not saying it won't become one, but currently I think it has less to offer and we already have transit well established along that route. That's just my opinion, of course, and I wouldn't be averse to changing my mind at some point in time.

Betts, I'm a little confused by your post. Are you saying that there aren't bus routes that serve other proposed streetcar lines? If Broadway or Robinson were bus routes, would that be an issue? The bus goes to the Plaza, so does that eliminate the Plaza? Weren't we planning on covering the city with streetcar and making OKC a streetcar city, or is the vision shooting a little lower than that?

You say you just like Plaza/Paseo because they're interesting..so how is 23rd less interesting? You said earlier that you think the people who shop along 23rd would be willing to ride the bus..what about people who live around the Paseo?, which isn't any swankier. That's kind of a weird statement, in my view, just as someone that regularly ate at Cheever's and Prohibition and used to get a lot of items from Market C. Paseo is somehow nicer than Uptown 23rd? The only difference I see is that one is nowhere near reaching its full potential (23rd) and one sits wedged between two dense neighborhoods (23rd) and one is the main arterial for the inner north side (again, 23rd).

But Jeff, I know you aren't ready to endorse a failed concept like BRT...

It seems like the failed systems were the ones that called themselves BRT, but weren't really. If BRT has dedicated lanes, boarding platforms, less frequent stops, and essentially looks and operates like light rail, it has been successful. BRT in Cleveland and LA has been pretty successful. And since you give the BRT its own lanes, it can eventually provide right of way to replace the line with rail based transportation. I think Classen and NW Ex are set up really well to receive BRT that could eventually evolve into rail.

So how is BRT going to impact density? Do Classen/NWX currently have the density to support a very intensive public transit mode? I'd say no. I think pretty much everywhere in OKC, whether downtown, whether the NW Exp., whether Memorial Rd., anyway--you need TOD in order to make the "T" (transit, in general) work. The current built environment is too dysfunctional.

Quote Originally Posted by Spartan View Post
But Jeff, I know you aren't ready to endorse a failed concept like BRT...


It seems like the failed systems were the ones that called themselves BRT, but weren't really. If BRT has dedicated lanes, boarding platforms, less frequent stops, and essentially looks and operates like light rail, it has been successful. BRT in Cleveland and LA has been pretty successful. And since you give the BRT its own lanes, it can eventually provide right of way to replace the line with rail based transportation. I think Classen and NW Ex are set up really well to receive BRT that could eventually evolve into rail.

Look, I'm not going to get into whether I like BRT or not. But Shane's perspective is right on from what I've actually personally ridden on or researched.

But bringing it up in any context for debate is not the point. The point is that it is depicted in the 2005 Fixed Guideway Study. Experts claim it should be part of the master plan. Our subcommittee has been tasked by several vocal council members to depict how the streetcar makes immediate connections to existing transit, and future proposed transit.

That is why I bring up BRT.

Beyond the immediate tasks at hand, we really don't have time to debate something else that is unfunded. So I won't.

But you're including it in your planning it seems... so we don't debate BRT, but it's taken for granted that it will be there, so the streetcar needs to go there?

Sorry if these are pointed questions, I'm just kind of confused at this point I guess. Just trying to understand where this is now.

Well Spartan- whether it is BRT, LRT, or future streetcar, don't you agree that Classen would be a good street for future fixed route transit? So either way, it's important to consider how our streetcar will interface with Classen in the future, right? Could easily take out a lane in each direction, or part of the median, and do BRT, LRT, or dedicated lane streetcar.

As for BRT the argument is that TOD can be generated by BRT as long as it is made clear that it is a permanent route. The buses travel in lanes that are separated by striping (at a minimum) and sometimes have their own curbs or barriers to separate traffic, stations have a permanent appearance and are easy to see. I prefer rail but I think BRT could be a good precursor to rail, especially when you get past I44. Plus it's about 1/4 the price to build, and would set up infrastructure (right of way, stations) for rail in the future.

But you're including it in your planning it seems... so we don't debate BRT, but it's taken for granted that it will be there, so the streetcar needs to go there?

Sorry if these are pointed questions, I'm just kind of confused at this point I guess. Just trying to understand where this is now.

I really don't understand your point. It's not part of our planning. Its part of the 2005 FGS. Who's taking what for granted? The streetcar doesn't need to go there because of BRT.

But it will be where BRT might be if a future council or Regional Transit Authority decides to install it where the FGS recommended it.

And Shane is right about dedicated lanes often starting out as BRT and then becoming rail. I just don't know why we are debating anything about BRT when the committee is simply demonstrating that it might be there sometime later. It is a courtesy to those who are concerned that we have taken future connection opportunities into consideration.

Jeff, this is just what me confused (two contradicting points you've made):


It's not part of our planning. Its part of the 2005 FGS.

....that we have taken future connection opportunities into consideration.

I can't tell if you guys drew the route out, and then said, "Oh yeah, here's another bonus we didn't even think of," or if it was part of the process that was pitted against other potential lines. Of course, I understand that it is important that you link the subcommittee's work to the established process before now, and not just what you think is a good idea. I know it's easy to blow the FGS off because it's already expired in my view, but I understand there's a lot more responsibility in your position.

I agree wholeheartedly with you that Classen is a great place to tie the streetcar system into other modes of transit. I also agree that 23rd and Classen is a vital intersection. I suppose my only real disagreement is how get from downtown to 23rd/Classen. It goes without saying, either you go along Classen and go through a ton of blight, or you go through well-restored neighborhoods and then go along 23rd.

I guess Classen offers more TOD potential, but I think Robinson-to-23rd just does a better job of "going through somewhere" and connecting things that actually exist in current form, along with that presence at the important intersection, and even if you don't see Uptown 23rd as an emerging urban district like I do, surely it's a stronger candidate than Classen south of 23rd.

I believe if streetcar goes north on Robinson to 23rd you cut through the most walkable neighborhood in all of Okc. Heritage Hills / Mesta Park would in itself fill the streetcar on a daily basis at all times of the day and night. Going Classen to 23rd, I don't think would have the same outcome.

This is all part of the delicate balancing act (which is difficult at best when you only have the 5 to 6 miles to play with) but do you build the routes where there is already density (work/attractions/residential) or do you build it in/through a blighted area hoping that the expected development happens? One of the stressed points about Streetcars was the economic impact/development that will naturally happen along the routes. And I know leadership wants to avoid the perception that it is just a tourist ride (but the tourists need to be taken into account as they are mostly new money coming into the economy). The easier you make it for the Convention goers/tourists to easily connect to Bricktown and other points of interest, is going to be a plus. Also critical that you connect as many of the MAPS 3 projects as you can ... Park, C.C., River, Fairgrounds, and a Senior Aquatics Center (if a DT location happens). This round of MAPS projects are symbiotic to an extent (as the success of one helps the others succeed too).

I believe if streetcar goes north on Robinson to 23rd you cut through the most walkable neighborhood in all of Okc. Heritage Hills / Mesta Park would in itself fill the streetcar on a daily basis at all times of the day and night. Going Classen to 23rd, I don't think would have the same outcome.

I thing most things we have been seeing it goes up to 13th on Robinson and then has yet to be determined, Classen not only has more space to accommodated mass transit it also has much more future potential along the route than Robinson north of 13th if we are putting money into the project as i235 limits growth on the east side, granted it will take a lot of work to get it their.

That is a valid point about the limited TOD potential east of Robinson, but there is a LOT of land along Broadway from 13th (well, 10th really) up to 23rd that is ripe for large-scale infill. (In the event that the transit mall couplet could just be extended all the way to 23rd.)

Yes, all of you are right. Our committee needs professional ridership projections for various scenios in the Classen versus Capitol / Plaza versus Paseo scenerios.

The main thing to keep in mind is that "the set up" is there for either, which allows for great flexibility.

1a Midtown/St. Anthony's to hub area
1b Connections to Bricktown/Convention Center/Park
1c Extension

2 Federal Funded connections to Health Sciences