Need to make Penn Square more upscale to compete with OAK and Classen Curve.

What could come to this area (or Belle Isle) that could be a regional draw? With the completion of Oak, it will already be the best retail sector in the state, but what else could fit here to draw people into the area beyond restaurant/retail?

1) knock the mall down
2) IKEA anchor
3) In-N-Out Burger; MAD Greens; and Dog Haus (among others) on the outparcels

If they built a second parking garage, they could capitalize on that SW corner of the property. Partnering with the city to install a diagonal pedestrian-friendly crosswalk leading into an open air promenade area. Basically make an outdoor retail and restaurant area combined with some outdoor open-space to be the front door of the mall. Make it as seem less as possible and it will feel like a cohesive development where going to Penn Square means walking to OAK, and vice versa.

They’re not going to compete with OAK, but if they complement it they can see some spillover success.

Transit hub, maybe at like NW Expy & Classen where the CFA was recently built, thought that currently would be bisected by I-44 with minimal walkability to Penn Square/Oak/Belle Isle. Santa Fe is obviously going to be the main transit hub, but maybe some sort of secondary hub, perhaps using the Pentagon City and/or Crystal City stations in Alexandria, Virginia as a model.

It would require an expensive reworking of the area and the city just doesn’t have the need/density/ridership to justify it, but it’s fun to think about.

Would love this, but I don't know that this brings more people to the area from other metros. Like, think particularly if someone is coming up from Dallas, what gets them to stay in this area vs. downtown? They wouldn't probably be drawn in because of the (by Oklahoma standards) quality retail. Restaurants are everywhere. What else could bring someone to stay in this area.

I feel like an underrated answer would be like a headquarters for a 1,000+ employee company that brings in a lot of traveling business people.

Maybe there's some sort of creative entertainment type thing that could come...like an iFly but more accessible?

If they built a second parking garage, they could capitalize on that SW corner of the property. Partnering with the city to install a diagonal pedestrian-friendly crosswalk leading into an open air promenade area. Basically make an outdoor retail and restaurant area combined with some outdoor open-space to be the front door of the mall. Make it as seem less as possible and it will feel like a cohesive development where going to Penn Square means walking to OAK, and vice versa.

They’re not going to compete with OAK, but if they complement it they can see some spillover success.

Somewhere in this thread, someone had the great idea to knock down the current Dillard's space on the SW corner and reconfigure the entire section with a garage, hotel, and a more usable space for an anchor tenant. Maybe 3 stories with a 12-15 story hotel that's toward the corner with a parking structure incorporated (think the Westin @ Houston Galleria)

I think you could definitely draw in people to stay from the rest of Oklahoma and maybe some metros like Wichita and Amarillo just for the shopping, but to entice business or bigger city travlers to this area, there needs to be more something else as well.

Simon seems to not really care too much about this mail. They expanded so many malls, but never really tried to improve or expand Penn Square.

Need to make Penn Square more upscale to compete with OAK and Classen Curve.
I keep saying this. Penn Square needs about $1 billion remodel.


1) knock the mall down
2) IKEA anchor
3) In-N-Out Burger; MAD Greens; and Dog Haus (among others) on the outparcels
That should be done on the site of belle, isle shopping center. Bonus points if they rebuild the power plant, they tore down and make an industrial themed apartment complex out of it.Titketeje

Found this label inside one of my dad's old suits. I was too young to shop there but I remember the name. My dad was an insurance adjuster from 70s - 90s. Just a fun memory for us old timers. 18173

Lots of construction noise in the former Godiva space. I thought Altered States was going in there, but then I thought I heard they weren't. Anybody know what is going on with this space?

I keep saying this. Penn Square needs about $1 billion remodel.


That should be done on the site of belle, isle shopping center. Bonus points if they rebuild the power plant, they tore down and make an industrial themed apartment complex out of it.Titketeje

And none of that will be done, ever.

And none of that will be done, ever.

I highly doubt he or anyone else thought there was a chance that would happen.

And none of that will be done, ever.

I disagree. There is a highly successful mixed use mall redevelopment near where l live that used much of the old mall structure. In place of the department stores are apartments and condominiums, a Whole Foods, misc small stores and many restaurants including a few pads nearer the street. The surrounding area has similar demographics to PSM if not a bit lower income on average. They didn't spend a billion $, but it is very well done.

I disagree. There is a highly successful mixed use mall redevelopment near where l live that used much of the old mall structure. In place of the department stores are apartments and condominiums, a Whole Foods, misc small stores and many restaurants including a few pads nearer the street. The surrounding area has similar demographics to PSM if not a bit lower income on average. They didn't spend a billion $, but it is very well done.

Simon hasn't spent any money on Penn is years. It might as well not exist to them. So many of their malls have gotten renovations or additions. Penn Square? Nothing, zip, nada.

They have no $ but that is incentive to sell to a developer who does.

They have no $ but that is incentive to sell to a developer who does.

Penn Square provides free cash flow for Simon and is a clean, well functioning property. I would think Simon would see how Oak affects the area before they would consider any expenditure.

I disagree. There is a highly successful mixed use mall redevelopment near where l live that used much of the old mall structure. In place of the department stores are apartments and condominiums, a Whole Foods, misc small stores and many restaurants including a few pads nearer the street. The surrounding area has similar demographics to PSM if not a bit lower income on average. They didn't spend a billion $, but it is very well done.

Care to link us to that complex? I would love to see what it looks like.

I recently went to Penn for the first time in I think like 8 years or so.

The place is stuck in time for sure. You can tell there has been zero investment since the renovations in 2000-2001. That being said, it's still well kept, clean, and nothing looks like it majorlly needs any TLC or anything like that. They have re-done the food court at least a couple of times.

What I can see is that the stores in the place are starting to move towards the lower end of the stick. Penn had been known for having some more of the upper end of "mall stores" that you wouldn't have found in other places in OKC. Well, i think those days are going to the wayside. I was surprised to see that even the Banana Republic store is gone. What came in its place, kept the store build out and looks like a nice store still at least. But it's still a local mom-and-pop. When those start being more prevalent in a mall, the writing is on the wall for the eventual end.

I may be calling myself out as old now, but the population of customers also seemed a little more rough than they used to. I'm not sure if its just because the way people dress in general now is more relaxed after COVID with holey sweat pants and generally grunge being sort of cool again and where PJ bottoms are acceptable public wear now. My family laughed at me for saying this stuff while i was there since im in my 40's and not my 70s. LOL

The department anchors, well none of them ever do anything to do any sort of renovations on their stores....ever, in any mall. The same carpet that was installed when it opened, is the stuff that will be there when it closes. Stains and rips and all. I really wish these stores would go to carpet squares so they can at least pop them out....and not use light colored carpet too. Especially Macys is looking ROOOOUGH! And the inventory in these departments stores is so thin now. Just walking through, where you used to be crammed in with so much you could barely walk, now you could walk a semi truck through the things.

So the building itself, looks to be in fine condition. But my confidence in the place in terms of what's happening in there...not high. Simon is still taking in great profit from rents. They have no reason right now to do anything other than continue as they are. Putting millions into some sort of inside renovation wouldn't do them any good. It wouldn't attract more customers. Stores attract customers. And right now, malls are not what's attracting them. There is way too much competition out there from curbside.

On a personal note, i actual prefer malls myself. Park once and walk inside the rest. I tend to walk when i go store to store in a stripmall rather than drive between them. But i do prefer the inside walking myself. Again, i'm old.....

I recently went to Penn for the first time in I think like 8 years or so.

The place is stuck in time for sure. You can tell there has been zero investment since the renovations in 2000-2001.
..

this is simply not true

this is simply not true

How is it not true? They may have thrown a few bucks at it, but the interior really hasn't been touch in 2 decades. A new entrance was added, (or one was redone) but that is about it. Simon doesn't care if the mall lives or dies, because they haven't really helped it out at all.

How is it not true? They may have thrown a few bucks at it, but the interior really hasn't been touch in 2 decades. A new entrance was added, (or one was redone) but that is about it. Simon doesn't care if the mall lives or dies, because they haven't really helped it out at all.

It's remained almost fully leased while almost every other mall -- including all the rest in the state -- is barely hanging on or has failed.

They added Whiskey Cake, Cheesecake Factory, Container Store, Texas de Brasil... Urban Outfitters will open next month.


For the life of me, I don't understand why people insist on running down that mall. It still draws huge crowds and they've done a great job replacing tenants with new ones.

Not many companies are pumping millions into mall remodels right now.

How is it not true? They may have thrown a few bucks at it, but the interior really hasn't been touch in 2 decades. A new entrance was added, (or one was redone) but that is about it. Simon doesn't care if the mall lives or dies, because they haven't really helped it out at all.

there was a 78 million dollar renovation in 2013

On a personal note, i actual prefer malls myself. Park once and walk inside the rest. I tend to walk when i go store to store in a stripmall rather than drive between them. But i do prefer the inside walking myself. Again, i'm old.....

Don't beat yourself up; malls were an attempt at building an actual decent American city experience — just inside a building. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oooVC3zfDc8

there was a 78 million dollar renovation in 2013

Then I stand corrected on fact, but it still looks outdated, and needs a refresh. And expansion, which can't happen, unfortunately.

It's remained almost fully leased while almost every other mall -- including all the rest in the state -- is barely hanging on or has failed.

They added Whiskey Cake, Cheesecake Factory, Container Store, Texas de Brasil... Urban Outfitters will open next month.


For the life of me, I don't understand why people insist on running down that mall. It still draws huge crowds and they've done a great job replacing tenants with new ones.

Not many companies are pumping millions into mall remodels right now.

Not really meaning to run it down. It's good for what it is. But for an upscale mall, which it has always tried to bill itself as, having one of the worst Macy's in the chain and a rundown JcPenney (granted, all JCP stores seem rundown) doesn't help the look.

Not bashing you or anyone, just giving my opinion. I think the mall can improve, and will have to once OAK opens.

https://okcretail.com/successstories/penn-square-mall/


Alexander works to recruit high-end retail to Penn Square Mall’s growing list of stores in Oklahoma City, a city that he views as an extension of the Dallas retail market.

“Many national retailers, particularly some of the top-tier luxury retailers, certainly don’t have Oklahoma on their hit list, and our job is to convince them that it should be,” he said. “We find a lot of interest once the tenants realize what the sales per square foot coming out of Oklahoma City are. It’s been such a great success story, that I guess, in some respects, it sells itself.”

Oklahoma City’s retail market has allowed Penn Square Mall to thrive as one of Simon’s best portfolio assets. Penn Square’s steady growth enabled Simon to invest $78 million in their 2013 renovation.

“In this part of the country, this is one of the best malls that we have in our portfolio,” Alexander said. “This mall produces sales per square foot higher than some of the very top regional malls in the DFW market. We’ve seen growth in sales every year that we have owned the mall. It is a great market for us.”

Wow, I had no idea. I've only ever visited the mall to visit the Apple store, which is right next to one of the entrances, so I didn't know it was doing so well. After reading reports of shootings I've not been eager to go inside, either.

Not really meaning to run it down. It's good for what it is. But for an upscale mall, which it has always tried to bill itself as, having one of the worst Macy's in the chain and a rundown JcPenney (granted, all JCP stores seem rundown) doesn't help the look.

Not bashing you or anyone, just giving my opinion. I think the mall can improve, and will have to once OAK opens.

Who said it's an upscale mall?

It's a typical, mainstream mall and a very successful one -- many times more successful than any other in the state or in most states.


Macy's being crap is down to their entire business being in the toilet, not PSM. Same with JC Penney. The two Dillards stores in that mall are very nice and stuffed with merchandise.

Who said it's an upscale mall?

I think some of that confusion can be blamed on Simon Mall’s branding: they seem to use the same style for both their high-end malls and their failing suburban locations.

Almost all violent crime is not random -- it happens between people who know each other.

There are shootings almost everywhere people gather: downtown, Bricktown, Midtown, HS football games... People minding their own business have absolutely nothing to worry about and if you went in the mall you'd see that for yourself. I go in there frequently and have never felt remotely unsafe -- nor have I anywhere in OKC.

Almost all violent crime is not random -- it happens between people who know each other.

There are shootings almost everywhere people gather: downtown, Bricktown, Midtown, HS football games...

I'm not worried about someone targeting me randomly, I’m worried that someone who decides to shoot at another person misses and hits me instead.

I'm not worried about someone targeting me randomly, I’m worried that someone who decides to shoot at another person misses and hits me instead.

Then, by my point, you shouldn't go to any public places because given the amount of people, PSM is no worse than any other in OKC.

I was recently at Penn Square mainly to have dinner at Pepperoni Grill, but then we decided to walk around a look. Both Pepperoni Grill and the mall were busy. It was a cold rainy night, yet there were plenty of people out shopping. Sure there are plenty of stores in there that don't really seem to fit, but it hasn't kept people from shopping there. The food court is always busy as well. I am not a huge fan of malls, but it was a nice night there.

I'm not worried about someone targeting me randomly, I’m worried that someone who decides to shoot at another person misses and hits me instead.

How many days has the mall been open? How many days have involved any kind of random or targeted acts of violence there?

Better not leave your house. Road rage happens too and much more frequently.

People afraid to go to Penn Square make me laugh. Such misplaced fear over a few random incidents. Make sure not to hang your feet over the edge of the bed either, the monsters under it might get ya!

I think some of that confusion can be blamed on Simon Mall’s branding: they seem to use the same style for both their high-end malls and their failing suburban locations.

Who is confused? It’s the highest end mall in OKC which is fairly indisputable but no one is out there trying to compare it to north park in Dallas.

I enjoy going and walking around Penn Square, the only good walkable retail in OKC ;). Usually pay to get beat up at Oriental Chi. Eat at Pepperoni Grill a lot too. Occasionally go to the AMC. It's a nice place, I really don't think it seems out of date or in need of major improvements at all

Penn absolutely was viewed in the OKC market as "the" upscale mall. THe stores that you found there were the higher end clothing (or at least more expensive) than you would have found at Heritage or Crossroads or Norman.

I would argue that the money that's been put in, didn't actually do anything to attract business that keep that label. Most of the stores that have been listed are NOT inside, but are outparcels that are curbside businesses, not mall. Yes, it goes to Simon's bottom line for the facility, but it's not inside the actual mall. If the mall itself closed, they would continue to operate. That's not the same thing. And the entrance isn't something that i would consider was an "investment" either.

I also didn't say it was run-down. In fact, i said it was still well maintained. There have not been widespread renovations to the public areas in 20 years. But I also feel like they are needed. Yeah the tile is cracked in a lot of places, but it's far from looking work down. What I commented was about was the store directory. Compare that to what it was in 2000 and it's basically a whole tier lower than it was before. It's nowhere near dead. But i do think that Simon is aware of the fact that putting millions into it, is not going to put customers back inside. It's just the beginning of what will be a very long and drawn out end.

When was the last time you went to Penn Square and the parking lot was absolutely packed on a Saturday (and it wasn't Christmas)? That's extremely telling folks. Because that used to be every weekend.

When was the last time you went to Penn Square and the parking lot was absolutely packed on a Saturday (and it wasn't Christmas)? That's extremely telling folks. Because that used to be every weekend.

Like every single Saturday.

I live nearby and see it for myself and go to the mall frequently.

I go there to walk in bad weather and it is almost always busy. Plus, like Pete, I live nearby and can attest that the lot is usually pretty full except for the northeastern most parts. I think the lack of more cars there is more of a testament to how bad Macy’s is these days than the mall as a whole.

I go there to walk in bad weather and it is almost always busy. Plus, like Pete, I live nearby and can attest that the lot is usually pretty full except for the northeastern most parts. I think the lack of more cars there is more of a testament to how bad Macy’s is these days than the mall as a whole.

Have you seen their "backstage" section. It is worse than Ross.

Have you seen their "backstage" section. It is worse than Ross.

Macy’s there is just a pit and their selections are not good.. I quit going a long time ago.

There have not been widespread renovations to the public areas in 20 years. But I also feel like they are needed..

except for the 87 million in 2013 ..

When was the last time you went to Penn Square and the parking lot was absolutely packed on a Saturday (and it wasn't Christmas)? That's extremely telling folks. Because that used to be every weekend.

i think the real question is when is the last time you have been to the mall on a saturday? because the last few times i was there (all well before thanksgiving) it was usually like 80-90% full on those saturdays in the middle of the day.

I enjoy going and walking around Penn Square, the only good walkable retail in OKC ;). Usually pay to get beat up at Oriental Chi. Eat at Pepperoni Grill a lot too. Occasionally go to the AMC. It's a nice place, I really don't think it seems out of date or in need of major improvements at all

OMG! Don't get shot!!!!

*heavy sarcasm*

Macy’s there is just a pit and their selections are not good.. I quit going a long time ago.

Macy's is so very bad here. And it just makes it worse if you've been to Macy's in NorthPark Mall in Dallas. It's VERY good. That anchor spot has been (4) different things since I've been here. (Macy's John A. Brown, Sanger Harris, Foley's)

North Park is a huge exception. Most Macy's stores look like the one in Penn Square. The JC Penney is just as bad... Department stores are dying off fast.

It won't be long before that store closes for good, which will not help the mall.

Macy's is so very bad here. And it just makes it worse if you've been to Macy's in NorthPark Mall in Dallas. It's VERY good. That anchor spot has been (4) different things since I've been here. (Macy's John A. Brown, Sanger Harris, Foley's)

Are you talking about NP in Dallas being 4 things? John A Brown OKC was where Dillards womens is in the SW corner (Browns was bought by Dillards). Foleys was Crossroads wasn't it? Was Sanger Harris where Penny's is now? It was an expansion when their parent company bought the mall, IIRC.

The mall is starting to show it's age. The parking lots are not in the best of shape and signs of trash. I heard the mall continues to have issues with water line pipes busting and the aging infrastructure is taking it's toll. I was in PSM going to certain stores and it smelled like back up sewage. Yikes!. I heard that PSM is on leased land owned by the Ben Wileman companies ? Is this correct? PSM is not a bad mall, however it does need a makeover. After living in Dallas for 25 years, I am a bit spoiled with nice shopping malls like Northpark, Galleria etc.. It remains to be seen if PSM puts in the needed improvements on this property?

^

Comparing PSM to the very best malls in the 4th largest metro area in the U.S. is ridiculous. DFW has plenty of dead/crappy malls too.

Try comparing to malls in Tulsa, Wichita, Little Rock, San Antonio, Milwaukee, etc.

I know it's been said before, but it's a real shame Simon couldn't have pushed out Penneys in favor of Von Maur 10 years back. Seems like that would've been mutually beneficial for both Von Maur and Penn Square.

To the point about Macy's and department stores:

https://www.cnn.com/2024/01/18/business/macys-is-laying-off-corporate-workers-and-closing-five-stores/index.html

The malls here are fine and to compare them specifically to North Park/Dallas Galleria/Houston Galleria/Baybrook/Domain, etc in Texas is ridiculous. Those are “A” tier malls/destination malls. Now does Penn and Quail both have stores that the other doesn’t (H&M, Urban Outfitters, Apple, more), of course. Does Texas have even more that we don’t have, of course. Do we see more mom/pop in malls these days, of course.
On a side note - I have worked in at Penn, Quail, Norman, and Crossroads and felt safe in all of them. They have all had some issues, but that stuff happens everywhere. On a side, side note - stores in Penn that are at Quail are always higher volume.

Are you talking about NP in Dallas being 4 things? John A Brown OKC was where Dillards womens is in the SW corner (Browns was bought by Dillards). Foleys was Crossroads wasn't it? Was Sanger Harris where Penny's is now? It was an expansion when their parent company bought the mall, IIRC.

Foley's was in the macy's space at Penn Square at one time. There was also a Foley's at Quail. Sears was where Penny's is now (I think).

Macy's is so very bad here. And it just makes it worse if you've been to Macy's in NorthPark Mall in Dallas. It's VERY good. That anchor spot has been (4) different things since I've been here. (Macy's John A. Brown, Sanger Harris, Foley's)

Macy's (i.e. Federated Department Stores) shot themselves in the foot slapping the Macy's brand on everything from the most upscale true Macy's to the most ran down Foley's. When I lived in Cincinnati 15 years ago there was a Macy's worse than the old one at Quail and one equivalent to the one at North Park like 10 miles apart. So you have no idea what you are going to get when you go to one. It'd be like Nordstrom's buying JCPenney and rebranding them to Nordstrom's.

With the success of Lifetime Fitness at QSM, what are the chances when one of those major department stores vacate the mall they might consider putting one in PSM?

With the success of Lifetime Fitness at QSM, what are the chances when one of those major department stores vacate the mall they might consider putting one in PSM?

I don't think we'll see another LIfe Time in the OKC area but PSM is going to have to get creative when Macy's and Penneys both inevitably fail.

Both are already terrible but at least the space is occupied.

It's going to be an on-going battle between Penn Square, OAK and Classen Curve, although the mall will have some big spaces to accommodate tenants the other two can't.

One thing that could easily happen is that AMC could take one of the department stores and convert into a new, much bigger theater.

They've done this in other malls and the current theater is old and cramped with 10 smallish screens, yet does a good business. AMC Quail has 24 screens.

It seems OAK has given up on landing a theater, as I've seen a plan for Phase III that only includes restaurants and a live music venue. It seems Alamo has too many company-wide problems to follow through at Chisholm Creek.


BTW, I just noticed AMC has permanently closed "AMC Classic Crossroads".

The mall is starting to show it's age. The parking lots are not in the best of shape and signs of trash. I heard the mall continues to have issues with water line pipes busting and the aging infrastructure is taking it's toll. I was in PSM going to certain stores and it smelled like back up sewage. Yikes!.

I don't know if related, as I hardly go to the small (despite being nearby), but when I was last in Dillard's the last week of December they had all sorts of noisy ground fans set up along the back walls blowing on the carpets and appeared to be trying to get rid of moisture. It didn't reek of sewage, but it definitely gave us the impression something had happened.

That said, every time I do go to PSM I'm shocked at how crowded it is. I hardly ever go to the mall and sometimes forget how many people make it a destination seemingly every weekend. It may not be the same as its heydey, but compared to the malls in my hometown that are on their last legs, PSM seems quite strong.

Like many theaters, AMC has been moving to a dine-in model.

They recently opened this 12-screen dine-in concept in a Southern Californian mall after closing an older 16-screen theater in a dead mall less than a mile away.


HTTP://www.okctalk.com/images/pete/amc012024a.jpg

https://variety.com/2022/film/news/amc-theaters-canoga-park-1235281748/

Penny’s future would be a lot brighter if they had 1) gotten Von Maur and LifeTime instead of Quail and 2) if they’d add some housing on the periphery.

With Pottery Barn leaving PSM for Oak that is going to leave a large corner store and exposed exterior window empty on an entrance/exit side.

I would like to entertain the thought of PSM going back to an open air mall. The outlet has shown that it is viable in our market. I managed out there for 6 years and the weather was not a distraction like one would assume. Less people came to browse, but more people bought during those times= high conversion and high sales.

BTW, if we're going to compare Penn Square to other malls, let's start with those in Oklahoma:

Crossroads Mall
Shepherd Mall
Heritage Park Mall
Sooner Mall
French Market Mall
Century Center Mall
Northpark Mall
Shawnee Mall
Quail Springs Mall
Oakwood Mall (Enid)
Woodland Hills Mall
Eastland Mall
Promenade
Sheridan Village
William Center
Central Plaza Lawton


That's a ton (16) of dead or nearly dead enclosed shopping malls just within the state.

The only malls that are even close to Penn Square are Quail Springs and maybe Woodland Hills, and neither are nearly as robust.