View Full Version : I-235 / I-44 Interchange



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David
10-12-2020, 08:22 AM
Good looking progress on the second flyover.

Pete
10-12-2020, 08:24 AM
Good looking progress on the second flyover.

There is still much to be done to tie it into northbound I-235 and NW 63rd.

But that has to be done before they can remove the EB 44 to NB 235 cloverleaf and then finish that middle section of 235.


This is an incredibly complex project.

jn1780
10-12-2020, 10:10 AM
Yeah, both I-44 EB and I-44 WB ramps to NB Broadway extension will go underneath the 63rd off-ramp bridge. The last phase of this project will do something similar with I-44 EB to NB Broadway also going underneath another on-ramp bridge carrying traffic from Lincoln Avenue.

rte66man
10-13-2020, 08:07 AM
The new WB 44 to NB 77 ramp adds a 3rd killer (no) merge to that interchange, long with SB 63rd to 77 and NB 235 to WB 44. I realize the lack of a decent merge area is temporary but I can't help but think they could have done better.

HFAA Alum
10-14-2020, 01:16 PM
http://www.okctalk.com/images/pete/i23544101120a.jpg
I really wish ODOT would've planned for an additional flyover, namely from the I-44 west to the I-235 south. Since the office is in the way of a flyover from south to east, the cloverleaf would be the more ergonomic choice for that merge. But from the space that seems to be available with the Santa Fe crossing being scrapped, I see that there could be the opportunity and availability to move that cloverleaf access and run it over the interchange, turning it into a 5-stack. Having two lanes of traffic dedicated to two cloverleaf accesses would only move the bottleneck to one lane of traffic, causing backup nightmares for the right lane looking to merge from 63rd to I-235 south.

In short, it provides a temporary solution but creates a long-living problem that future generations of drivers would have to deal with. Wasted opportunity.

Plutonic Panda
10-14-2020, 01:22 PM
They could have built a fully directional interchange. Yes there are problems but that is what makes for great engineering. OkDOT just didn’t have the money.

BoulderSooner
10-14-2020, 01:46 PM
I really wish ODOT would've planned for an additional flyover, namely from the I-44 west to the I-235 south. Since the office is in the way of a flyover from south to east, the cloverleaf would be the more ergonomic choice for that merge. But from the space that seems to be available with the Santa Fe crossing being scrapped, I see that there could be the opportunity and availability to move that cloverleaf access and run it over the interchange, turning it into a 5-stack. Having two lanes of traffic dedicated to two cloverleaf accesses would only move the bottleneck to one lane of traffic, causing backup nightmares for the right lane looking to merge from 63rd to I-235 south.

In short, it provides a temporary solution but creates a long-living problem that future generations of drivers would have to deal with. Wasted opportunity.

there won't be any bottle neck when this project is finished

Plutonic Panda
10-14-2020, 06:21 PM
there won't be any bottle neck when this project is finished
Eventually there will be.

HFAA Alum
10-14-2020, 09:04 PM
Eventually there will be.

Granted it won't happen in the immediate future because the volume of traffic hasn't met the conditions that would allow that to happen. But given that the city is experiencing growth, the distant future could be seeing these issues manifest. I had some experience living in Atlanta, Mobile, Virginia Beach, and Oklahoma City. I can tell you the comparison of who's infrastructure makes sense and who doesn't.

Most of the layout in Mobile never accommodated for heavy traffic when the roads were built, so certain arteries have massive issues with traffic because they never improved the issue, nor do they have plans to do so. But the counter point to that is that the city is so dead after 10 P.M., they let the lights blink up and down some of the arteries. Is there a need to expand, yes. Is it worth it to expand right now, no. ALDOT is busy with bigger issues in Birmingham.

Atlanta has their traffic issues almost throughout the day and night, but the day traffic is absolutely abysmal. Try riding the I-75/85 corridor or I-285 in the middle of the day, you will have at least one moment where you are at a complete stop. So most of the time they have to do their construction in the night. When I was younger, the I-285 circuit was bad enough. Nowadays it's a whole nightmare. Problem is that Atlanta is ever-expanding, and is in need of massive expansion to some of their interchanges to keep their roads flowing. Which leads me to one of the worst bottlenecks in the country, Spaghetti Junction. I'm talking about a layout that's so complex that you would leave one ramp and could easily get back on the same damn road you just left. Be wary of where you turn, or you'll end up running the entire I-285 perimeter another two or three times. If you don't know your exit, God help you.
16521

Virginia Beach is the shining example of suburban tax dollars at work. Strip malls, sectioned neighborhoods, tunnels and bridges galore. They can't really have high density housing over there because of the multitude of military operation bases established around the city. But you can bet your rear end if they see an opportunity to accommodate for the growing "suburbianopolis", they jump on it. Everything from expanding the Chesapeake Bay Bridge Tunnel (adding more tunnels), to creating more turnpikes, they have done it. No tunnel or bridge there is older than 10 years without maintenance. Traffic going across the bay to Hampton Roads is still a disaster, but bet they've had some expansion ideas in the works. VDOT don't play around with the taxpayers money. Those are majority government employees, big no-no.

If I can say anything about this interchange, it's that it's a great thing for the city traffic-wise. It will operate in some ways on the idea that the city will grow, but I feel that minor flaw will still cause some confusion because of some random doucebag deciding that they don't want to let someone merge in from the east-to-south connector. One bad driver can ruin it for everyone around him. And as the city grows, you'll have more of these bad drivers in the morning looking to get to work on time, damn everyone else. Don't believe me, go take a drive in Spaghetti Junction and see for yourself.

Plutonic Panda
10-15-2020, 02:27 AM
Ironically, the northeast is a giant suburb in a sense along with florida which about my favorite state. I have found driving through Atlanta is generally easier than driving through Birmingham. I’m actually in Birmingham now. Then there’s the sh!t show that is Memphis regarding its highways.

As much as I like to complain about highways in OKC, the truth is OKC has one of the best freeway networks of any city it’s size right now. How long that will last I don’t know. It took me almost an hour to get from downtown OKC to Moore the other week. I was also in town over the summer and experienced near gridlock conditions at Kelly and 33rd. I live in LA so traffic isn’t a big deal to me as I’ve become used to it but I’ve never seen the amount of traffic congestion in OKC that I’ve experienced lately. I went to Tulsa a couple weeks ago and it was a breeze to drive through at rush hour.

HOT ROD
10-24-2020, 11:34 AM
the nice thing about OKC is you didn't need to be on I-35 for an hour to get to Moore from downtown; you could take a number of surface streets :).

But I agree with the OP and have said many times that it is a wasted opportunity not to include the downtown flyover at I-235?I-44 junction; I hope they can plan for it because it will be needed in the near future!

Pete
11-09-2020, 06:39 AM
http://www.okctalk.com/images/pete/i235110820a.jpg


http://www.okctalk.com/images/pete/i235110820b.jpg

David
11-09-2020, 07:53 AM
Looks like the bridge work is getting close on the second flyover, though there is still a lot of concrete to pour for the rest of those ramps.

jn1780
11-10-2020, 07:21 AM
Their getting closer towards getting the I-235 NB branch of the ramp done. That will be open before the branch leading to 63rd street. 3-4 weeks maybe before I-44 EB to 235 NB opens?

Pete
11-15-2020, 11:43 AM
http://www.okctalk.com/images/pete/i235111520a.jpg

BoulderSooner
11-30-2020, 08:44 AM
new odot 8 year plan

the final phase of this project ..

I-44: WESTBOUND TO NORTHBOUND RAMPS AT I-44/I-235 INTERCHANGE
JP# 0903328 FFY 2022 GRADE,DRAIN,BRIDGE & SURFACE $ 16,758,600

Pete
12-06-2020, 10:31 AM
http://www.okctalk.com/images/pete/235120620b.jpg


http://www.okctalk.com/images/pete/235120620a.jpg

DowntownMan
12-07-2020, 07:47 AM
new odot 8 year plan

the final phase of this project ..

I-44: WESTBOUND TO NORTHBOUND RAMPS AT I-44/I-235 INTERCHANGE
JP# 0903328 FFY 2022 GRADE,DRAIN,BRIDGE & SURFACE $ 16,758,600

I guess Iím confused on this. What part of this project is already not in progress. Looking at everything under construction it appears to me that everything is in progress currently?

warreng88
12-07-2020, 07:53 AM
I guess I’m confused on this. What part of this project is already not in progress. Looking at everything under construction it appears to me that everything is in progress currently?

As stated above, it looks like the WB I-44 to NB 235/77 which actually has not started. I would assume they have to complete the flyover and exits to 63rd street prior to starting that exit ramp

catch22
12-07-2020, 11:19 AM
Here is the project phasing picture. It's a small file and super low res. Basically the last phase is in pink. Looks to be some integration with the adjoining neighborhood, and the final connection to the already in progress northbound lanes.

https://oklahoma.gov/odot/citizen/major-projects/ongoing-projects/i-235-i-44-interchange/_jcr_content/responsivegrid-second/image_6102519451.coreimg.100.640.jpeg/1603373337230/2016.05.02-sequence-with-no-years-web.jpeg

Edit: the phase numbers are out of order, I believe a few years ago they dedicated extra funding to bring some of the larger phases forward, so Phase 7 etc is before Phase 3 of the original plan.

vaflyer
12-07-2020, 03:59 PM
new odot 8 year plan

the final phase of this project ..

I-44: WESTBOUND TO NORTHBOUND RAMPS AT I-44/I-235 INTERCHANGE
JP# 0903328 FFY 2022 GRADE,DRAIN,BRIDGE & SURFACE $ 16,758,600

This project has been postponed until 2023 in the new 8-year plan.

DowntownMan
12-07-2020, 06:20 PM
As stated above, it looks like the WB I-44 to NB 235/77 which actually has not started. I would assume they have to complete the flyover and exits to 63rd street prior to starting that exit ramp

Iím still confused. To me it looks like the west bound lane with connection to 63rd is under construction where the red crane is at. I wouldnít think there would be much bridge work for this exit either. Itís just Ramos. But maybe there it more alone the 44 road and approaches with Lincoln off ramps that this entails.

Snowman
12-07-2020, 06:39 PM
I’m still confused. To me it looks like the west bound lane with connection to 63rd is under construction where the red crane is at. I wouldn’t think there would be much bridge work for this exit either. It’s just Ramos. But maybe there it more alone the 44 road and approaches with Lincoln off ramps that this entails.

There will be new bridges between Lincoln and i235, to deconflict entry & exit ramps.

Pete
12-20-2020, 02:12 PM
http://www.okctalk.com/images/pete/i23544122020a.jpg


http://www.okctalk.com/images/pete/i235i44final1.jpg


http://www.okctalk.com/images/pete/i23544122020b.jpg

Plutonic Panda
12-20-2020, 03:17 PM
Pete, have you heard anything about the trail gap that will be built through this interchange to complete the Deep Fork Creek trail? The city says it will start in 2021 but they’ve said it will start many times before and it never does.

I235+I44
01-17-2021, 07:30 PM
Hi Pete,
Can you please present us with some new pics, if possible? It's been close to a month since you last posted and I am dying for some new ones. Appreciate all your help in advance!!! :)

Pete
01-18-2021, 07:10 AM
Took these yesterday (open in new tab for high res):

http://www.okctalk.com/images/pete/235011721a.jpg


http://www.okctalk.com/images/pete/235011721b.jpg


http://www.okctalk.com/images/pete/235011721c.jpg


http://www.okctalk.com/images/pete/235011721d.jpg

dcsooner
01-18-2021, 03:50 PM
Pete, Why do I see this as a massive overbuild? OKC last I experienced not a densely populated city with horrid traffic backups. Also, so many lane miles to maintain. Just like the Kickapoo turnpike, just don't see it

Plutonic Panda
01-18-2021, 03:52 PM
If anything it is under built not over built LOL

dcsooner
01-18-2021, 04:00 PM
If anything it is under built not over built LOL

Plu, you could be right, but could you explain why you believe that to be the case based on traffic patterns? I could be outdated due to my not living in the city

HangryHippo
01-18-2021, 04:15 PM
DC - OKCís issues are the interchanges. Lane capacity, minus a few notable exceptions, isnít the problem. Itís the asinine interchanges.

Charlie
01-18-2021, 05:01 PM
Yea I moved back to OKC from the DMV Area about 2 years ago and you would be surprised at how fast the city is growing. It really shows with the 5 o'clock traffic.

This is much needed, and I cannot wait until they get started with I-240/I-35 and I-40/I-44

Pete
01-18-2021, 05:02 PM
This intersection was not only a bottleneck but *very* dangerous.

It still is during construction but will be a million times better when complete.


So many of OKC's freeway intersections were not built to interstate standards for some reason. I-240 & I-35 is just as bad.

Plutonic Panda
01-18-2021, 05:03 PM
Plu, you could be right, but could you explain why you believe that to be the case based on traffic patterns? I could be outdated due to my not living in the city
Even with lower traffic counts, fly overs can still be justified by allowing for a more efficient movement than a cloverleaf.

Plutonic Panda
01-18-2021, 05:07 PM
DC - OKC’s issues are the interchanges. Lane capacity, minus a few notable exceptions, isn’t the problem. It’s the asinine interchanges.
You’re not entirely wrong but this statement is starting to show age. Minus the opinions from those who believe adding lanes results in cars magically appearing so their drivers can sit in standstill traffic, there are multiple segments that need to be widened right now and many that will need to be widened in the near future. In a perfect world we’d do it all now but reality prevails.

I would agree OKDOT should focus on interchanges. But the state needs to get its ass in gear and give OKDOT more funding. I am extremely shocked at how much worse traffic has gotten in OKC since I left in 2015. OKC’s days of having decent traffic at rush hour are numbered.

dcsooner
01-18-2021, 05:19 PM
DC - OKC’s issues are the interchanges. Lane capacity, minus a few notable exceptions, isn’t the problem. It’s the asinine interchanges.

Thanks for clarifying, much appreciated

HangryHippo
01-19-2021, 04:16 AM
You’re not entirely wrong but this statement is starting to show age. Minus the opinions from those who believe adding lanes results in cars magically appearing so their drivers can sit in standstill traffic, there are multiple segments that need to be widened right now and many that will need to be widened in the near future. In a perfect world we’d do it all now but reality prevails.

I would agree OKDOT should focus on interchanges. But the state needs to get its ass in gear and give OKDOT more funding. I am extremely shocked at how much worse traffic has gotten in OKC since I left in 2015. OKC’s days of having decent traffic at rush hour are numbered.
I said minus a few notable exceptions - there are definitely areas that need to be widened. But the biggest problem, IMO, is the interchanges and the on and off ramps that help turn the already-poor interchanges into absolute clustersf***s (looking at you Broadway Extension/122nd/Kilpatrick).

Plutonic Panda
01-19-2021, 04:51 AM
I said minus a few notable exceptions - there are definitely areas that need to be widened. But the biggest problem, IMO, is the interchanges and the on and off ramps that help turn the already-poor interchanges into absolute clustersf***s (looking at you Broadway Extension/122nd/Kilpatrick).
Pretty much every single freeway to freeway interchange in OKC sucks. Even once completed this interchange will still be half assed but at least it will have C/D lanes for the clover leafs. All the others either are deficient or incomplete.

jn1780
01-19-2021, 10:22 AM
We widen the roads first for the "cheap and easy" victories, but this only helps so much until the interchanges are replace.

Judging by the pics, it looks like a shift to some of the new ramps is coming up soon. Also, 63rd offramp is probably close to the planned temporary closure to tie in the new ramps.

Snowman
01-19-2021, 05:04 PM
It still seems bizarre how they are prioritizing the on/off ramps at 63rd during construction.

They seamed dead set on keeping the southbound on ramp open even when it was at best near guaranteed to cause backups and at worst seemed a higher risk of accidents, which also likely increased build cost. Now they are still keeping the northbound off ramp open, when closing it a month or two ago looks like it would have speed up this segment's construction, also likely increasing cost. When there is three alternate ramps within a mile, so most people would not even need to drive a half mile out of their way to an alternate.

Pete
01-19-2021, 05:09 PM
^

Yes, it concerns me that they seem hell-bent on keeping everything open all the time, often at the expense of a very dangerous situation.

Unless I'm going straight through, I avoid this nightmare as much as possible. I've had two very close calls.

TheTravellers
01-20-2021, 08:41 AM
^

Yes, it concerns me that they seem hell-bent on keeping everything open all the time, often at the expense of a very dangerous situation.

Unless I'm going straight through, I avoid this nightmare as much as possible. I've had two very close calls.

Haven't driven through there in years, won't until it's completely done.

jccouger
01-20-2021, 09:24 AM
I guess I'm a glutton for punishment or maybe a thrill seeker but I love driving through this interchange at the moment lol

Love seeing the progress first hand, and driving under those new flyovers is impressive.

soonermike81
01-20-2021, 09:40 AM
I guess I'm a glutton for punishment or maybe a thrill seeker but I love driving through this interchange at the moment lol

Love seeing the progress first hand, and driving under those new flyovers is impressive.

Lol, I’m the same way!

David
01-20-2021, 11:04 AM
Haha, same here as well. I even started using NB 235 to WB 44 just to use the completed flyover on trips where I otherwise would have gone up Classen or some similar route.

HangryHippo
01-20-2021, 11:12 AM
Haha, same here as well. I even started using NB 235 to WB 44 just to use the completed flyover on trips where I otherwise would have gone up Classen or some similar route.
Same here, ha.

catch22
01-20-2021, 12:18 PM
Induced demand!!!

David
01-20-2021, 12:52 PM
Nobody tell Panda!

Of Sound Mind
01-20-2021, 02:55 PM
I guess I'm a glutton for punishment or maybe a thrill seeker but I love driving through this interchange at the moment lol

Love seeing the progress first hand, and driving under those new flyovers is impressive.
Ditto. But I also mitigate the pain by commuting to work VERY early and then keeping my evening commute either before 4pm or after 6pm.

I'm actually very impressed with how they have adeptly managed this herculean project... like trying to rebuild a ship while the ship is still sailing. It's not perfect, but it's been impressive.

Plutonic Panda
01-20-2021, 03:15 PM
Induced demand!!!


Nobody tell Panda!
I’m sitting biting my tongue mumbling to myself about it

Scott5114
01-21-2021, 12:30 PM
So many of OKC's freeway intersections were not built to interstate standards for some reason. I-240 & I-35 is just as bad.

I-35/I-240 and I-44/I-235 were both cloverleaf interchanges. They were state of the art when they were built... in the mid-1960s. Interstate standards were a lot looser then. If they applied at all. I-44/I-235 may have been originally built as a US-66/US-77 interchange.

We have learned a lot about freeway design in the last 50 years. Also, cars have gotten a lot better. I have a driving book from 1968 that casually mentions that some cars may not be able to handle Interstates, and that you may consider switching cars before using a freeway. A design that worked when nobody expected a car to reach 70 mph doesn't work now. Driver expectations for freeway and vehicle engineering are a lot higher than they used to be. The cloverleaf used to be considered a good, solid design. Only later, with increasing traffic levels, were its flaws discovered and considered so bad to begin retiring the design.

Other states invested in their infrastructure and upgraded the worst interchanges long ago, or have been actively working on doing so as much as they can. Oklahoma has only started getting around to doing this in the last decade or so. Texas used to have far more squirrelly interchanges than Oklahoma did, but they have been able to rebuild many of them.

If you ever get the chance, it's interesting driving a real vintage freeway that hasn't been upgraded, like the Pasadena Freeway (110) in California or the Pennsylvania Turnpike. These were some of the first freeways in the US and it really shows. There were a lot of odd ideas at the time, like on-ramps so short you had a stop sign at the end of them, exit ramps at near-right angles to the mainline. Nobody had ever built a freeway before, so they were just kind of winging it. Now we know what works and what doesn't.

Scott5114
01-21-2021, 12:42 PM
Haha, same here as well. I even started using NB 235 to WB 44 just to use the completed flyover on trips where I otherwise would have gone up Classen or some similar route.


Induced demand!!!

This actually perfectly illustrates the problem with "induced demand" as a concept—some people would absolutely use an increase in traffic correlated to the flyover opening as an example of "induced demand". Except, here, the demand is exactly the same (David would presumably still make the trip by car either way), the traffic pattern is just shifting. Increased traffic at I-44/I-235 is taking traffic off of Classen, in this case. I would think most people would rather have the traffic on the Interstate System than on city streets.

BoulderSooner
01-21-2021, 12:51 PM
This actually perfectly illustrates the problem with "induced demand" as a concept—some people would absolutely use an increase in traffic correlated to the flyover opening as an example of "induced demand". Except, here, the demand is exactly the same (David would presumably still make the trip by car either way), the traffic pattern is just shifting. Increased traffic at I-44/I-235 is taking traffic off of Classen, in this case. I would think most people would rather have the traffic on the Interstate System than on city streets.

thank you for putting this in a much better way then i ever could. Induced Demand for sure is a thing and can happen in major metro areas .. (ie if you build more roads into NYC more people will decide to drive) but it is not really a thing in a city that already has close to Max driving and almost no persons that are using public transit by choice ..

catch22
01-21-2021, 01:03 PM
I was being tongue-in-cheek. Largely agree with the above.

AnguisHerba
01-21-2021, 03:13 PM
...exit ramps at near-right angles to the mainline.

I-40 Eastbound exit at Sunnylane Rd. Exiting there is like a driving course where you have to dodge left/right around a cone.

Scott5114
01-22-2021, 03:14 PM
I-40 Eastbound exit at Sunnylane Rd. Exiting there is like a driving course where you have to dodge left/right around a cone.

The ones I'm thinking of on CA-110 (https://www.google.com/maps/@34.0923969,-118.2062095,3a,63.5y,0.78h,86.02t/data=!3m7!1e1!3m5!1s_wh0fqhLfbjrSo_bp23-5A!2e0!6s%2F%2Fgeo3.ggpht.com%2Fcbk%3Fpanoid%3D_wh 0fqhLfbjrSo_bp23-5A%26output%3Dthumbnail%26cb_client%3Dmaps_sv.tact ile.gps%26thumb%3D2%26w%3D203%26h%3D100%26yaw%3D16 6.61084%26pitch%3D0%26thumbfov%3D100!7i16384!8i819 2) (built in 1940 if the markings on the bridge are to be believed) make I-40 in Del City look like the paragon of freeway design. You can definitely see how by the time I-40 was built, we had advanced from the designs used on CA-110, but we still had quite a way to go.

Plutonic Panda
01-22-2021, 03:21 PM
Yeah but CA-110 is fun as hell to drive just as long as you don’t have merge onto it from local streets lol... it’s so fun to haul ass down that road late at night.

Currently there is a proposal to narrow it from three to two lanes each way. I’m not a fan of that proposal though it would allow for merging lanes. Widening the road is virtually impossible without extreme property impacts or vertical construction.

Scott5114
01-22-2021, 03:24 PM
Oh, I'm not disputing that. When I make it out that way I'm planning on taking a drive on it just for the experience of driving on one of the first freeways in the US. It's a testament to how far transportation in the US has come over the last 80 years.

Plutonic Panda
01-22-2021, 03:46 PM
The contrast between that road and the newly rebuilt I-5 in OC or the widened 405 through the Sepulveda pass is incredible. All three of those freeways are absolutely beautiful but it is amazing how far they have evolved from one another.

Pete
01-31-2021, 12:24 PM
http://www.okctalk.com/images/pete/235013121a.jpg


http://www.okctalk.com/images/pete/235013121b.jpg


http://www.okctalk.com/images/pete/235013121c.jpg


http://www.okctalk.com/images/pete/235013121d.jpg