I think this is something so obvious that we often overlook talking about, but it occurred to me that we all have very different ideas about what downtown should be. This is reflected in what our priorities for everything are, for how Bricktown should grow, for where the convention center should go, what should go around the park, where the streetcar route should go, how serious we should be about preservation, and how we should go about incentivizing development. When you get down to it, every major downtown issue we have hinges on what our personal definition of downtown is.

So I broke it into 6 different groups.

1. Downtown is a place of business, a place where the city's elite do business, the economic engine of the state. This is where people wheel and deal. Downtown should cater to the business class who utilize it during the day time and focus on growing the business class, to the benefit of the entire city. City Hall is downtown and the building should be a focal point, as the most important building in the city, where decisions affecting the entire city are made.

2. Downtown is a mixed-use live/work/play environment where people legitimately base their lives. Urban living is beginning to take root and after 5, people who work in the CBD will make their way to one of the restaurant/bar hot spots and then to their home after work. Downtown is buzzing consistently with different types of activities going on, appealing to different classes of people. The residential aspect of downtown is going to be key toward growth. Downtown is defined by the single user and the human scale, and it is what people make out of it.

3. Downtown is an image, a place to impress. It has to say "OKC" with an exclamation mark and make a great postcard. Appearance and impression is more important than functionality. Downtown is where people will judge OKC, and pictures of downtown will be considered representative of what OKC is. This is where OKC must pull out all the stops. That postcard look is important, and maximizing the potential of visitors to come away impressed is of the utmost importance. The visitor experience to OKC and being hospitable is what makes downtown special and unique.

4. Downtown is a laboratory for developers to make money building homes just like they do anywhere else in the metro, and for planners to scheme up masterplans and try and organize life. It's a district with rigid processes and construction procedures, and it's planning process powers our civic discourse and its construction phases power our economy and provide thousands of jobs. It's not so much functionally relevant as it is economically relevant, and municipally relevant just for the sake that it is downtown. It's that center of our city where we're all supposed to come together, that's why we have MAPS.

5. Downtown is a fun place. It's a place where these enigmatic business executives who I could dream about being pull up in limos and make insane deals. It's a place where you have to go to on the first date and walk around, get a nice dinner in Bricktown, see a movie, and then go to a club and get very drunk at. Downtown is Bricktown, that's where everyone in OKC goes to have fun. It's a very glamorous life downtown, and I look forward to doing it all over again next weekend. Alternatively, it is a place of arts and culture, where you can indulge in tastes that are unique and too privileged to happen in other parts of the city, or state. It is the hub of society.

6. Downtown is a place to host events. The infrastructure must be capable of handling large volumes of traffic at once, several times a day, even if for most of the time it goes relatively unused. It must contain all of the city's premier venues for events of every kind, and these events will power our economy and keep OKC relevant, even win OKC some good press. By hosting these events, and revolving around events, what makes downtown go is large crowds. Downtown must focus on the venues that host these large events several times a week and the businesses that support and please the people going to these events. It is a place defined by the large crowds and not the single user, and the experience of those large crowds is paramount.

And you can't say it's a mix of all of these, that's a cop-out.

home

Why would it be a cop out to say "all of the above?" I didn't vote since that would have been my choice.

Why would it be a cop out to say "all of the above?" I didn't vote since that would have been my choice.

Well, what is the most persuasive purpose, and dominant use, in your mind? Everyone comes at this from a different perspective, how would you characterize where you're coming from, Doug?

I picked Business, because that category can also include Entertainment and Event (these two are sort of a business where they make money, I think, at least mostly for Entertainment). Downtown, to me, is the place where business is done, unique shopping centers, entertainment, and events. That is what a downtown core is generally made to be. As for living, I would say those should be set around the core, but not within.

Our downtown is also a construction zone, but it is because of all the late start to catch up with most of the country's downtowns. OKC is seriously behind on that, but we are gaining up speed, even though it will be months and years to see the significant changes.

A show-off place, not really, but it tend to be more exposed within a downtown. OKC's downtown do not really have anything to show-off until the Devon Tower is completed and lighted up with millions of LED lights. The new Myriad Gardens may be something to showcase, rather than show-off, because of the neglect to add LED lights onto the new glass panes. Trust me, OKC would have been in awe to see a huge cylinder lit up in Green LED lights to promote Going Green with the improvement of the Gardens and the expansion of a new Public Park.

Well, what is the most persuasive purpose, and dominant use, in your mind? Everyone comes at this from a different perspective, how would you characterize where you're coming from, Doug?
That, I can answer. "Downtown is..." it begins. To me downtown is or should be blend of everything you said. Now, like Bill Clinton, it sort of depends on what "is" is. I'm using "is" in the sense of "should be," I suppose. Downtown should provide the main heartbeat of a city ... I suppose, nostalgically, like it was during all of the time which led up to Urban Renewal. All of the things you mentioned form a blend so that downtown isn't only one thing, it is many, all of the parts adding to make the whole.

...A show-off place, not really, but it tend to be more exposed within a downtown. OKC's downtown do not really have anything to show-off until the Devon Tower is completed and lighted up with millions of LED lights. The new Myriad Gardens may be something to showcase, rather than show-off, because of the neglect to add LED lights onto the new glass panes. Trust me, OKC would have been in awe to see a huge cylinder lit up in Green LED lights to promote Going Green with the improvement of the Gardens and the expansion of a new Public Park.

Did they change that? Last I remember was FritterGirl saying that they were installing the LEDs in the MG...but may be mistaken

Did they change that? Last I remember was FritterGirl saying that they were installing the LEDs in the MG...but may be mistaken

Yes, they will have LED's


I know the Gardens' staff is already working on new light schematics for next year, and with the new LED technologies being installed in both the Crystal Bridge and outdoor grounds, next year's lights will be spectacular.

Doug, interesting take as I took "IS" as being the current state and not what it could or should be. Based on current state, my answer would be "Center of Business" & "construction zone" (Project 180)

That, I can answer. "Downtown is..." it begins. To me downtown is or should be blend of everything you said. Now, like Bill Clinton, it sort of depends on what "is" is. I'm using "is" in the sense of "should be," I suppose. Downtown should provide the main heartbeat of a city ... I suppose, nostalgically, like it was during all of the time which led up to Urban Renewal. All of the things you mentioned form a blend so that downtown isn't only one thing, it is many, all of the parts adding to make the whole.

I think the definition of "is" is entirely subjective, anyone can come at this from their own viewpoint or even their own understanding of what the question is. It's not a simple thing to define/discuss.

The poll results are very interesting so far. I am surprised business way outweighs living.

I was surprised that living is ranking so high, since the density, while improving, isn't there yet (see that one as more of what could/will be rather than what is. Of course vote totals are extremely low at this point so percentages can be deceiving. But I understand what you are saying. maybe. LOL

It shouldn't be a surprise to anyone that downtown living preoccupies my mind when I think of downtown OKC..

It shouldn't be a surprise to anyone that downtown living preoccupies my mind when I think of downtown OKC..
Not a surprise at all. Downtown living has historically been a substantial piece of the whole of downtown. In earlier days, a significant part of downtown living were those who lived in low cost "hotels." I've received several e-mails from people asking for help identifying their living quarters south of Sheridan in the 1940s-1950s. In those days, of course, no one thought of condos ... the concept didn't even exist, I don't suppose. Others lived in more elegant quarters such as in the Skirvin Tower or the Huckins Hotel. Downtown was a hotbed of living until Urban Renewal days.

A city's downtown is its pulse, its beat, its identity, its imprimatur, to both those who live here and those who don't. No one thinks of strip malls or even elegant structures along a city's interstate highway system when thinking of a city. They think of and identify a city as being its downtown. That's part of the reason my choice in your poll would have been, if offered, "all of the above."

Spartan - the problem with you question is that is taken from an outsiders point of view. When I talk to people here in Jax that live downtown their answer would be all of those things. It is no different than asking those same questions about Norman.

I also couldn't answer the poll because it didn't have a category that fit, to me. Candidly, I always thought of DT OKC as a place where the skyscrapers were and the blocks surrounding them. I can't say it is "the" business community, although that would have been my first choice, because it only pulls certain kinds of businesses. It isn't the "center" of many important businesses - certainly not the center for many small businesses. As a lawyer, it was a place I went to quite a bit but it isn't the center of state or local government. There isn't much retail businesses except corporate offices.

An entertainment center or an event central (not sure the difference unless one is a permanent destination point) would have been my second choice. But it surely doesn't define my notion of DT - it is just something you can do DT, to me.

I don't shop downtown because of lack of parking and because the goods they hawk tend to be overpriced, aren't things that interest me; and I'd end up having to carry what I bought around to my car, wherever that might end up. So shopping or anything retail isn't even on the radar, to me.

I love to go to the Arts Festival but, again, I hate the parking situation. I don't go to the New Year's Eve celebration because I don't see at night and, again, I don't like the crowds trying to leave all at the same time. I will go to smaller exhibits in near DT OKC if I can go in the daytime and don't have a fistfight to leave when the place empties out all at once. I try to keep track of those things but you have to be watching or on a list to be aware of them. As a kid, my best friend's father was plugged into the artistic community and we'd go to small plays and poetry readings on a regular basis but, again, you'd have to have had a connection to be aware of them. Facebook and the internet has helped with that.

Living DT is a personal choice that suits many even though I'm not one of them. I say, go for it. The continual attempts to paint that as more than a personal choice is a bit annoying but you can't fault people's enthusism (although most of those same zealots typically aren't respectful in return towards someone who loves the suburbs).

Bricktown is okay for something fun to do when family/friends are in town but not something I'm interested in doing every weekend. I don't see DT as being really an entertainment center beyond that. That being said, I remember what it was like before Bricktown and seeing DT OKC as an entertainment center, at all, would have been odd.

To me, downtown is primarily for business use. I would never consider living downtown and except for business reasons, I only occasionally venture downtown or to Bricktown for entertainment or special events.

I wish we could pick more than just one...

We were living happily-ever-after in the suburbs, with not even a shadow of thought about living downtown. We were raised in burbworld, it was our norm, and we had no reason to question it. When we talked about downtown, we said the very same things as PennyQuilts.

No amount of rhetoric will change the minds of all the PennyQuilters and it shouldn’t. She’s right: where you choose to live is a personal choice, end of story. But choices are based on information, and perception, and your personal paradigm of the ideal. It’s funny how a simple paradigm shift changes your mind…

One of the first things we discovered after moving downtown, was that we didn’t do it soon enough. It was SO much better than burbworld we wished we’d done it much sooner, but like PennyQuilts, no amount of rhetoric would have convinced us of it… you have to experience it to understand. The benefits are too numerous to list, but the headline of our list would be: “Quality of Life Radically Improved by Proximity to Downtown.”

Penny, please excuse my zealotry, but I didn’t realize I was one until I read your post! I hate most evangelists too… But one thing is for sure: they’ve experienced both sides of an issue, and might know something we don't.

We were living happily-ever-after in the suburbs, with not even a shadow of thought about living downtown. We were raised in burbworld, it was our norm, and we had no reason to question it. When we talked about downtown, we said the very same things as PennyQuilts.

No amount of rhetoric will change the minds of all the PennyQuilters and it shouldn’t. She’s right: where you choose to live is a personal choice, end of story. But choices are based on information, and perception, and your personal paradigm of the ideal. It’s funny how a simple paradigm shift changes your mind…

One of the first things we discovered after moving downtown, was that we didn’t do it soon enough. It was SO much better than burbworld we wished we’d done it much sooner, but like PennyQuilts, no amount of rhetoric would have convinced us of it… you have to experience it to understand. The benefits are too numerous to list, but the headline of our list would be: “Quality of Life Radically Improved by Proximity to Downtown.”

Penny, please excuse my zealotry, but I didn’t realize I was one until I read your post! I hate most evangelists too… But one thing is for sure: they’ve experienced both sides of an issue, and might know something we don't.

dwelles you didn't strike me as a zealot - at least until you got snarky. Up to then, I thought you were perfectly respectful/tolerant. I'd lump you in the category of an advocate. You sound way too sensible to even claim that experience living downtown is going to convert everyone. It simply won't. You know that. Where would I put my dogs, my donkey, my longhorn, my big workshop and quilting studio, etc.? It is about lifestyle.

For those whose preferred lifestyle would be inhanced by living DT, personal experience is a fine thing to convert them. But for some of us, the burbs aren't a default position subject to change if we were just enlightened. For some of us, perhaps most of us, it is something we absolutely love. I am not sure when or why living DT became a moral/superior choice by some. Nor do I understand why DT zealots believe it is their business to try to tell others how to live. It is like they need everyone to agree with them out of insecurity or something. Trust me, that sort of intolerance is not going to go well if they are mashed in like sardines DT. If you are going to live DT, better to have the DT's all think alike or you are going to have a lot of friction. If it was really about spreading the joy and enlightening others to a better way of life, I don't think they'd regularly make mean comments about the folks in the burbs.

Still, even Dwelles, from the post, anyway, seems to think it is just a matter of the people in the burbs not don't get it. He/she is dead wrong but that is the underlying premise that I suspect allows them to continue to inflict their gospel on others who aren't interested. And never will be.

Geeze Penny, excuse my snarkyness (great characterization by the way!). I definitely don’t think that downtown living is right for everyone, and don’t pretend I can convert anyone… I was just trying to communicate that once-upon-a-time, I too thought like you (sans donkey), and would not have been “converted,” except for the experience of doing it.

From your description, I’d say you have a RURAL lifestyle, not suburban… You’re absolutely right; no conversions are likely. We like what we like. Please don’t confuse my enjoyment of urban life with moral superiority. Other urbanites might be trying to encourage you to consider other lifestyles. Not me.

Sorry, dwelles, since you said you didn't realize you were a zealot until you read my post, that seemed like you were going out of your way to take a snipe. I guess I took it the wrong way because I didn't mean people who are merely advocates. I meant the ones who raise it to the level of a religion.

We were living happily-ever-after in the suburbs, with not even a shadow of thought about living downtown. We were raised in burbworld, it was our norm, and we had no reason to question it. When we talked about downtown, we said the very same things as PennyQuilts.

No amount of rhetoric will change the minds of all the PennyQuilters and it shouldn’t. She’s right: where you choose to live is a personal choice, end of story. But choices are based on information, and perception, and your personal paradigm of the ideal. It’s funny how a simple paradigm shift changes your mind…

One of the first things we discovered after moving downtown, was that we didn’t do it soon enough. It was SO much better than burbworld we wished we’d done it much sooner, but like PennyQuilts, no amount of rhetoric would have convinced us of it… you have to experience it to understand. The benefits are too numerous to list, but the headline of our list would be: “Quality of Life Radically Improved by Proximity to Downtown.”

Penny, please excuse my zealotry, but I didn’t realize I was one until I read your post! I hate most evangelists too… But one thing is for sure: they’ve experienced both sides of an issue, and might know something we don't.


Am curious, if you were a suburbanite and had no interest in living downtown, what got you to move there? What caused the paradigm shift? "Quality of Life" is such a subjective thing, what is your definition of that phrase? For PennyQuilts, quality of life might be severely diminished if she couldn't have the things she mentioned.

I understand what you are saying in your post but also understand PennyQuilts when she talks about the underlying tone of many DT advocates...theirs is the best way and the only way and anyone who thinks otherwise is _________________.

I would consider living downtown if I had a reason to do so. But for me, there just isn't a reason to do it and many reasons not to. For me, the cons far outweigh the pros.

Penny, I too dislike people who raise any subject (other than religion) up to the level of a religion… thank you for helping me recognize my zealotry.

Larry, very good question (why move from suburb to urb?): After seeing all the cool houses in Dwell magazine (back before they started advertising expensive cars and jewelry), my wife and I started dreaming about building one; they’re inexpensive, and look cool. We thought it’d be nice to have a “view” of something, and we needed a cheap lot, otherwise we couldn’t afford to build. We chose downtown because we thought we could find a cheap lot that had a view of downtown. We also needed a location where the neighbors wouldn’t object to a design that might be a bit odd. (There are several related, entertaining sub-stories that I won’t go into here.)

Your next question is harder to answer (what is my definition of “Quality of Life?”): First, we had a great quality of life in the suburbs; it was a subject we didn’t actively think about until we moved. And the move wasn’t without trepidation. Our daughters were embarrassed by what they thought would be a severe downgrade in our quality of life. My wife and I had questions regarding security, and: “what will our friends think?” Most of them thought (and still think) we were nuts. Others have learned what we learned, and are actively seeking to do the same. (Our daughters now thank us for the improvement to THEIR quality of life!)

This may sound corny, but the biggest quality-improvement is general diversity. The suburbs are homogenized, the city is raw. The suburbs are a scripted sitcom, the city is a reality show. It is just more authentic. Authenticity is important to quality of life. This was a surprise discovery for us. It is good.

Another important attribute is proximity! While in the suburb we were each buying one tank of gas per week, now we each buy one tank per month; but the benefit is measured in time and convenience more than gas-dollars. We’re closer to everything we like, and we don’t have to battle traffic (and our auto & house insurance is radically less expensive!). And, we actually WALK to places now. All of this is very good.

There are many other life-quality improvements, but we digress from Spartan’s subject… I too wanted to vote for all six choices. Like Doug, I almost didn’t vote at all. Thanks to Spartan for getting us to think! And thank you for helping me define my quality of life…

Downtown is home to me. Surprisingly, I know far more of my neighbors than I ever did living in my last somewhat suburban home. We all actually get out, walk our dogs and chat regularly. Since we don't have backyards, we can't really pull into our garages and never leave our home or backyard, which was what my neighbors did in our last "neighborhood". I'm getting ready to walk my dog down to Starbucks and have coffee, which is something I never would have done before, despite the fact that I was almost as close to a Starbucks as I am now. Note to Coffee Slingers. I'd walk there, since I prefer to coffee, but Broadway is not as dog friendly as Bricktown.

The suburbs are a scripted sitcom, the city is a reality show. It is just more authentic.

There's the zealotry. The rest of us are all plastic people living plastic lives. You suddenly became real when you moved downtown. Hint, you did not move to the Bronx, it's downtown OKC fer crissakes. I live in the burbs and it's maybe 15 minutes to reality if I find the need to get out of my bubble for some authenticity.

It is only downtown OKC, but for some of us, it's as close as we can get. I'm quite sure the Bronx was never a goal of mine, but I do remember very vividly going on spring break in college and stopping to spend a night in Georgetown with an already graduated friend. I remember thinking, "I would LOVE to live here". I always had the same feeling when visiting cities that had neighborhoods of row houses and so, when I started driving downtown regularly to go to Hornets' games and got off on 6th Street, I saw the construction and thought, "This could have the same feel as the neighborhoods in the cities I love". I had never before contemplated moving downtown, but found myself driving by on weekends, getting out to walk the construction sites and the idea grew. Then, it took about a year to convince my husband who, despite missing his swimming pool, really enjoys it here too. It's funny to hear him explain, "It's just like living in a ranch house turned on its side".

Great! There's nothing like living in a neighborhood you like. My point is my house in the burbs is less removed from 'authenticity' than if I lived on the Upper East Side, Harlem or Brooklyn and wanted to go to SOHO for an art event.

I do know my neighbors in the burbs and do socialize with them. We have crime, places to eat, shop, drink coffee etc. And I don't burn a tank of gas a week driving downtown because I also work at my sitcom job with my sitcom employees near my sitcom house.

Obviously, to each his own. We're all genetically programmed to be different, which is why life is so interesting. I don't see anything wrong with wanting to live in the suburbs, and I did it for quite a while here. Neither is more noble than the other. I think that downtown was viewed so negatively for so long and we've all heard people waxing poetic about the glories of shrubbery and a personal plot of land that many of we downtown supporters try to talk it up as much as possible. I'm not using any hyperbole when I say that I enjoy living downtown more than I did living where I did before. However, my life has changed, and it's easier to do so given my current circumstances. I would need two townhouses were my entire family still at home.

I would enjoy living downtown too, under different circumstances and perhaps after it develops more. Surely not trying to relocate my business or daily commute in and out of there. But if retired or some other situation, perhaps. I can say that's definitely not true for my spouse, who loves her green-spaces and finds little or no reason to go downtown save for occasional legalities, an infrequent ticket to the symphony or the theater.

Great! There's nothing like living in a neighborhood you like. My point is my house in the burbs is less removed from 'authenticity' than if I lived on the Upper East Side, Harlem or Brooklyn and wanted to go to SOHO for an art event.

I do know my neighbors in the burbs and do socialize with them. We have crime, places to eat, shop, drink coffee etc. And I don't burn a tank of gas a week driving downtown because I also work at my sitcom job with my sitcom employees near my sitcom house.

Double Edge, excuse my use of metaphor to explain a concept; I never implied that sitcoms were inferior to reality TV (I hate reality TV). Meaning: I don’t think suburban life is inferior to urban. I had never tried to define what I thought was good about living downtown until Larry asked me… I was living happily-ever-after in suburbia, ignorant about urban living. I was on your side, and PennyQuilts’ side. I was SURPRISED by the improved quality of life we received by moving downtown. If that quality is described as “authenticity” in my mind, it doesn’t mean that suburban life is plastic… and just because I describe it as authenticity doesn’t mean that you would too.

Visiting the city, and living in the city are two different things. I can imagine what it feels like to walk on the moon, but I’m going to rely on Neil Armstrong’s depiction, not yours.

I've lived near Paseo and commuted to the burbs to work and shop. That's not as downtown as The Montgomery Tower Apartments but it's not the burbs of Edmond either so I'm not completely ignorant to what's different. (Though I have to say at one time it was the burbs, just not when I lived there.)

It's different. Period. Quality of life between the two can be measured by what scratches your personal itch.

My guess by your posts is the biggest contributors to improving your quality of life are living in a new house to your liking and dreams and getting rid of a commute, neither of which are directly related to downtown. (Unless your house dreams were to have one situated Downtown, which would just make fulfillment of the dream recursive, not necessarily better.)

dwellsokc:

And I hope nothing was construed by anyone as an attack on your view point, was just trying to understand where you were coming from. I appreciate your response.

If I worked downtown, it could be a consideration, but since I work just off Broadway near Edmond, I certainly don't want to move someplace that is farther (or is it further) away and dealing with the described nightmare that Project 180 etc is having on getting in/out of DT (in addition to the normal traffic issues). The cost of getting a place that is smaller and costs more doesn't make any since for me either. The same reason I haven't moved closer to work, the places get smaller and more expensive. Views are nice but not really that important to me (unless we had the Rocky Mountains or something like that). But even then, I work a pseudo graveyard shift and sleep during the day, so I live in a virtual cave anyway. If Thunder games were a priority for me, again that might be a consideration, but at best, I am a casual sports person.

Again, not putting down any of those things if they are important to you or anyone else.

Thinking in terms of the poll choices would only hurt what downtown is.