View Full Version : Case of the Sharpie Smuggler!



MadMonk
12-22-2010, 08:41 PM
13yr old at Roosevelt Middle School arrested for possesion of a black Sharpie marker in class.

http://www.thesmokinggun.com/documents/bizarre/boy-13-busted-illegal-marker-possession

Why didn't she just take it from him? What was he doing that constituted arresting him? Please, tell me there's more to the story.

Spartan
12-22-2010, 08:44 PM
Maybe he was sniffing. Idk, but the goal in life for OCPS and OCPD has to be to make life as difficult as possible for poor inner city minorities. Glad I'm not them.

kevinpate
12-22-2010, 09:33 PM
story version I saw was makring paper and it bled through to a desk and then he denied he had it.

what puzzled me is the citation relates to having an indelible marker on private property without consent of property owner.
I never really considered any of the public schools and grounds where my kiddos attended classes and enjoyed recess as being private property. Then again, I never considered a Sharpie to be an issue on any property.

Thunder
12-22-2010, 09:38 PM
Public schools are not private properties and it is not illegal to possess markers such as this. Take a look at any stores, Walmart for example, sells these markers with no issue. I think this news story was a hoax.

Larry OKC
12-22-2010, 10:50 PM
Public schools are not private properties and it is not illegal to possess markers such as this. Take a look at any stores, Walmart for example, sells these markers with no issue. I think this news story was a hoax.

Sometimes it is legal to sell something but illegal to buy it or have it. Hoax or not, it also ran as front page news in Wed's Oklahoman.

http://www.newsok.com/using-marker-at-school-leads-to-okc-teens-arrest/article/3525768


A 13-year-old was arrested Friday in Oklahoma City, accused of violating a little-known city ordinance that prohibits possession of a permanent marker in some circumstances.

...the marker had bled through a piece of paper onto the desk and reported to a police officer that she also had seen the teen writing on the desk with the marker, the report said.
Not just a case of bleed thru but outright graffiti.

The ordinance is against BROAD TIPPED indelible markers (Marks A Lot) and most Sharpies are not in that category (thus the name Sharpie). On edit, it looks like Sharpie does make a broad tipped version "King Size".

Under City Ordinance 35-202, it is illegal for any person to possess spray paint or a permanent marker on private property without the permission of the property owner.

“No person may possess an aerosol spray paint container or broad-tipped indelible marker on any private property unless the owner, agent, manager, or other person having control of the property consented to the presence of the aerosol spray paint container or broad-tipped indelible marker,” the ordinance reads.

The law appears to be directed at curbing graffiti and is under the nuisance chapter of city ordinance.
But as Thunder correctly pointed out, are public schools considered private property? Why does the ordinance specify private property and seemingly exclude or make it legal to have it on public property?

Thunder
12-22-2010, 11:26 PM
Larry, this looks like your news story to investigate. First, I would like to know the school's policy on this. Second, what was the boy doing on paper. And third, anything else you can think of. I think the parents will be capable of suing the school and the police for allowing the arrest. This is more along the line of an accident in this case, a marker's ink went through the paper onto the desk. But for real, this boy should have never been arrested in the first place.

Larry OKC
12-23-2010, 01:05 AM
Thunder:

Except it wasn't just a case of bleed thru, the teacher also said she saw him writing directly on the desk too.

Seems city ordinance would over ride any school policy that might be in place (they said they would investigate it after the holiday break). Just as state law over rides city ordinances and federal law over rides state.

What the boy was doing on the paper seems to be irrelevant unless it was an assignment, especially if the marker in question was part of the school supply list for that class (which would be a legal use according to the ordinance). This was something sort of alluded to in the linked story at the start of the thread that mentioned the teachers:

...Facebook page reveals that her “likes and interests” include the official “Sharpie Permanent Markers” page on Facebook...

Thunder
12-23-2010, 04:37 AM
The parents will need to demand a copy of the paper and photograph of the desk. If there was anything more on the desk than what was written on paper, then at most the student should have received is a suspension. If the student obtained the marker from a teacher, then the case will tip greatly in the student's favor, but it all depend if the desk has more ink than the paper. If the police refuse to cooperate, then the case should be thrown out and the boy should be released. The parents may probably need to settle for the suspension, but will need to file for a transfer to another school to avoid the teacher in question. Also keep a print out copy of the teacher's Facebook page. I also would like to see the police officer involved with the arrest to be suspended without pay (but police tend to love suspension with pay) until the investigation is done. What the officer should have done was to reject the arrest and recommend the school to take action (by contacting the parents, discussing what happened, and determine if there was any wrongdoing).

MadMonk
12-23-2010, 06:00 AM
Thunder:

Except it wasn't just a case of bleed thru, the teacher also said she saw him writing directly on the desk too.


But, here's my question. Why did she have him arrested? It seems to me that the punishment is far worse than what the "crime" calls for.

If that happened when I was in school, the offender would have been sent to the principal's office and perhaps suspended. People used to carve stuff into their desks and they would just get detention if caught. Of course, this is back when a school didn't go on lockdown because someone had a pocket knife, but still...

David
01-03-2011, 04:57 AM
Using marker at school leads to OKC teen’s arrest (http://newsok.com/using-marker-at-school-leads-to-teens-arrest/article/3525774)


Perhaps parents need to check supply lists and backpacks before sending their students back to school after winter break.

A 13-year-old was arrested Friday in Oklahoma City, accused of violating a little-known city ordinance that prohibits possession of a permanent marker in some circumstances.

The teen was caught using a permanent marker at Roosevelt Middle School by a teacher, according to the crime report filed with the Oklahoma City Police Department.

Delynn Woodside noted the marker had bled through a piece of paper onto the desk and reported to a police officer that she also had seen the teen writing on the desk with the marker, the report said.


Read more: http://newsok.com/using-marker-at-school-leads-to-okc-teens-arrest/article/3525774#ixzz19yMEM7aL

Anyone know any more details about this?

Thunder
01-03-2011, 07:32 AM
http://www.okctalk.com/showthread.php?t=24106 :LolLolLol

bombermwc
01-03-2011, 07:44 AM
Exacttly, what happened to losing recess, going to the principal's office, or any number of the things you can do for punishment? I would bet there's more to the story, otherwise it's a school on a power trip trying to make an example out of something really stupid.

BBatesokc
01-03-2011, 07:56 AM
I agree, an odd way of handling the situation. When our son was going to MWC High School they seemed to be more level headed even though it could be a rough school. Our son got in a bit of trouble that could have been blown way out of proportion if the school wanted to. He got jealous when his girlfriend and him had broken up and she was hugging and flirting with someone else - typical high school drama. Not thinking and trying to blow off stem and not get into a fight he punched a window in the school and it broke. It happened within eyesight of MWC police who are typically on campus at lunch, etc. He certainly could have arrested him and some sort of vandalism charge etc. could have been levied. Instead, the cop saw how shocked our son was at what he had done, he took him to the office, the office called us, we went in, and the school decided to give him a couple of days of in school detention and have him pay for the window. They didn't even put it in his school records because they didn't want to effect him going to college. He learned his lesson an never had a bit of trouble at school again.

Schools need to give teachers the ability to paddle again and try level headed approaches instead of going overboard on these situations.

Kerry
01-03-2011, 08:13 AM
But, here's my question. Why did she have him arrested? It seems to me that the punishment is far worse than what the "crime" calls for.

If that happened when I was in school, the offender would have been sent to the principal's office and perhaps suspended. People used to carve stuff into their desks and they would just get detention if caught. Of course, this is back when a school didn't go on lockdown because someone had a pocket knife, but still...

Being arrested is not punishment. The kid will have his day in court. It is sad that law enforcment has to be involved at all but when you have a society so devoid of a sense of right and wrong what do you expect.

David
01-03-2011, 08:28 AM
http://www.okctalk.com/showthread.php?t=24106 :LolLolLol

Thank you, that is what I was looking for.

BBatesokc
01-03-2011, 08:30 AM
Being arrested is not punishment.

Actually, being arrested is a form of punishment and law enforcement and prosecutors know it. I've personally seen many examples where police arrest an individual and take them to jail because they know if they simply did a report or even a ticket that the city or county will most likely decline the charge. So, the cop arrests the person to enact their own punishment.

Also, being arrested deprives the person of their freedom from detainment (from hours to days or even weeks), usually requires money to be put up that will not be returned even if no charges are ever filed, legal fees if they consult an attorney, a public document of the arrest is generated, public ridicule, stress, etc. So, yes, it is a punishment.


The kid will have his day in court. Hardly. 85% or more of criminal cases NEVER go to trial. Also, it isn't like an episode of Law and Order - 'Your day in court' comes at great expense regardless of guilt or innocence.

MustangGT
01-03-2011, 09:27 AM
Schools need to give teachers the ability to paddle again and try level headed approaches instead of going overboard on these situations.

Very much AGREE. When the schools made the uninformed/ignorant decision of NO TOLERANCE they threw common sense out the window. How many cases have we read about where a student is severly penalized for possessing nail clippers with an extendable blade, fishing knife in the bed of a pickup etc.

Thunder
01-03-2011, 09:39 AM
I agree, an odd way of handling the situation. When our son was going to MWC High School they seemed to be more level headed even though it could be a rough school. Our son got in a bit of trouble that could have been blown way out of proportion if the school wanted to. He got jealous when his girlfriend and him had broken up and she was hugging and flirting with someone else - typical high school drama. Not thinking and trying to blow off stem and not get into a fight he punched a window in the school and it broke. It happened within eyesight of MWC police who are typically on campus at lunch, etc. He certainly could have arrested him and some sort of vandalism charge etc. could have been levied. Instead, the cop saw how shocked our son was at what he had done, he took him to the office, the office called us, we went in, and the school decided to give him a couple of days of in school detention and have him pay for the window. They didn't even put it in his school records because they didn't want to effect him going to college. He learned his lesson an never had a bit of trouble at school again.

Schools need to give teachers the ability to paddle again and try level headed approaches instead of going overboard on these situations.

You should send the school in question a letter about how wonderful the MWCHS dealt with a problem child.

I once broke a dorm window at OSD and did not get a serious punishment. I was surprised and the others around me cheered. lol

BBatesokc
01-03-2011, 09:45 AM
You should send the school in question a letter about how wonderful the MWCHS dealt with a problem child.

They know we are appreciative. We are not the type of parents who blindly defend our children. He knew he did wrong, he didn't make any excuses and we told him and the principal we'd stand behind whatever the school decided. We were told though they weighed the fact our son had no prior problems, had good grades, admitted wrongdoing and that they knew he would be paying for the repairs from his job and not us.

Kids make mistakes - but that doesn't always give adults the right to compound them and make it worse.

Thunder
01-03-2011, 09:48 AM
They know we are appreciative. We are not the type of parents who blindly defend our children. He knew he did wrong, he didn't make any excuses and we told him and the principal we'd stand behind whatever the school decided. We were told though they weighed the fact our son had no prior problems, had good grades, admitted wrongdoing and that they knew he would be paying for the repairs from his job and not us.

Kids make mistakes - but that doesn't always give adults the right to compound them and make it worse.

You misunderstood. Send a letter to Roosevelt Middle School detailing how level headed MWCHS was when they dealt with your son. They will feel very stupid for involving the police, arresting the student, and exposing it all on national media. Also send a letter to the school board and demand that action to be taken toward those at Roosevelt Middle School involved for blowing a minor situation out of proportion. You are well known nationally and they will be afraid of you. Also inform them about the discussion going on here.

BBatesokc
01-03-2011, 10:20 AM
You misunderstood. Send a letter to Roosevelt Middle School detailing how level headed MWCHS was when they dealt with your son. They will feel very stupid for involving the police, arresting the student, and exposing it all on national media. Also send a letter to the school board and demand that action to be taken toward those at Roosevelt Middle School involved for blowing a minor situation out of proportion. You are well known nationally and they will be afraid of you. Also inform them about the discussion going on here.

Ah, I reread your post and see where you were going. I doubt any correspondence from me would have any effect whatsoever.

SOONER8693
01-03-2011, 10:58 AM
Holy crap. You folks obviously have nothing else to do. "Debating" this, OMG.

Thunder
01-03-2011, 11:00 AM
Ah, I reread your post and see where you were going. I doubt any correspondence from me would have any effect whatsoever.

Well, it is too late to undo their action, but they will feel really stupid, embarrassed, and guilty. I just hope the parents can sue.

dankrutka
01-03-2011, 03:16 PM
Just like any areas in life, some schools are run by reasonable administrators with the best interest of students in mind and others are run by administrators that are on a constant power trip and try to control everything. Even if the kid was writing on the desk with a sharpie on purpose, the punishment was way out of line. This type of unreasonable punishment could actually lead to more problems for that child. This is similar to Aztecs ridiculous dress code that punishes anyone with any extra slack in their pants (which means that all the pants I wear would be against dress code... One girl on the news was in violation wearing scrubs from her job at the hospital). In cases like this administrators punished (in many cases) poor kids who can't afford more clothes and makes kids actually want to drop out. It boggles the mind.

bluedogok
01-03-2011, 08:21 PM
Very much AGREE. When the schools made the uninformed/ignorant decision of NO TOLERANCE they threw common sense out the window. How many cases have we read about where a student is severly penalized for possessing nail clippers with an extendable blade, fishing knife in the bed of a pickup etc.
Much of that was done so administrators didn't have to use judgment, they could just point to a rule and say it was out their hands thereby relieving them of the responsibility of making a decision. I know some school level administrators and teacher who have the fact that school boards and district admins have done that in their districts. Many times it is driven by legal staffs trying to protect the district from the parents because a decision made by a lower level admin without a hard and fast rule can be used by parents in lawsuits. It is all a result of people not using common sense which doesn't seem to be so common anymore.

Kerry
01-04-2011, 05:34 AM
This is why we home school. Good luck in your government run schools. May the force be with you.

bombermwc
01-04-2011, 06:25 AM
OK, look. I went to MCHS also....they have had principals that want to work the no tolerance policies as much as anyone...it totally depends on the principal you deal with. The year after I graduated, they expelled a kid for having an exacto knife in his car....mind you this kid (who was an all-state wrestler) had been installing new speakers in his car and left all his equipment in the car. He didn't DO anything, in fact the police had to break INTO his car to find the knife, which was in a door compartment. The police dog inaccurately sniffed out drugs (which were never found on/in the car). His parents did sue the district and he ended up at Choctaw.

At the same time, there was a kid that was also nabbed for drugs a few years before that. He's sitting in history class with me, sees the jr. class principal look in with an officer, he jumps out the window (1st floor) and runs off. Officer and principal follow. Later you see him walking back in cuffs, with a black and mild hanging out of his mouth. The kid did time and came back later that school year. Did he learn anything? No.

So there are two examples of how something stupid became something huge and something much more important was sort of shrugged off.

But FYI - more to Kerry - I had a VERY safe and happy school experience the entire way through. We didn't have bullies, i didn't get made fun of really (and i was short, skinny, had glasses, and a temper...plenty of ammo), and had great friends. Played sports in and out of school. Most of my teachers were great, some sucked. But I got a good education that allowed me to go on to OCU for my degree and get a great job. So for me, that "government school" did very well.

Kerry
01-04-2011, 06:38 AM
But FYI - more to Kerry - I had a VERY safe and happy school experience the entire way through. We didn't have bullies, i didn't get made fun of really (and i was short, skinny, had glasses, and a temper...plenty of ammo), and had great friends. Played sports in and out of school. Most of my teachers were great, some sucked. But I got a good education that allowed me to go on to OCU for my degree and get a great job. So for me, that "government school" did very well.

Schools aren't what they used to be. I'll let you guys debate what is wrong today and what casued it and how to fix it. We opted out and found our own solution.

Thunder
01-04-2011, 07:38 AM
This is why we home school. Good luck in your government run schools. May the force be with you.

Home schooling is the worst fate a parent can put a child through. There are serious consequences with that including the lack of social and interaction among other people. It is a shame that a parent would do that. Most parents that does home schooling do not even possess a degree to teach, especially all levels and all those different courses.

Put a kid in any real school and watch them learn in a real way and succeed.

FritterGirl
01-04-2011, 08:50 AM
Home schooling is the worst fate a parent can put a child through. There are serious consequences with that including the lack of social and interaction among other people. It is a shame that a parent would do that. Most parents that does home schooling do not even possess a degree to teach, especially all levels and all those different courses.

Put a kid in any real school and watch them learn in a real way and succeed.

Thunder, I hate to burst your bubble. Long gone are the days when home schooled children existed in a non-social bubble as you describe. Homeschool networks are plentiful, and parents regularly work with other parents not only on curriculum, but in organizing group field trips, sporting activities, dances, arts classes, etc.

Please go research test scores. Home schoolers often are beating national averages on SAT scores compared to public school students. Individualized attention and more advanced curricula, in addition to accelerated and/or more concentrated learning, are certainly advantageous in this regard.

Not all parents can afford this option, however, so must rely upon the public school system, which sadly, is hanging by threads. That's not to say children in public school don't succeed, for obviously they do, but homeschooling does have plenty of advantages.

Kerry
01-04-2011, 09:05 AM
Home schooling is the worst fate a parent can put a child through. There are serious consequences with that including the lack of social and interaction among other people. It is a shame that a parent would do that. Most parents that does home schooling do not even possess a degree to teach, especially all levels and all those different courses.

Put a kid in any real school and watch them learn in a real way and succeed.

You have a lot to learn, a lot. However, your comment doesn't apply to me anyhow. My wife is a certified teacher in 3 states (Florida, Oklahoma, Georgia) for all subjects up to 9th grade. We have a dedicated classroom with equipment most schools only dream about. As soon as I assemble the new 2.5 inch Newtonian reflector telescope we can start some astronomy. Just remember when you have kids to tell them that Yes, my kids want fries with that.

Sorry gotta go, my son needs me to check his math work.

dismayed
01-04-2011, 09:07 AM
Seems odd to me that this teacher's first reaction was to call the police. Seems even more odd to me that the principal of the school authorized it to proceed any further once the police showed up by allowing the teacher to sign the form that effectively threw a little kid in jail. Seems odd to me that the police would decide to enforce that and arrest a child. Seems odd to me that just several months ago police spokespersons were saying there is no such thing as a citizens arrest in the state of Oklahoma, but are now trying to say that is what happened here.

Want to hear something even stranger? The kid wasn't arrested for marking on the desk. He was arrested for being in violation of city ordinance 35-202 which states:


No person may possess an aerosol spray paint container or broad-tipped indelible marker on any private property unless the owner, agent, manager, or other person having control of the property consented to the presence of the aerosol spray paint container or broad-tipped indelible marker.

Source:

http://www.newsok.com/article/3525768

dismayed
01-04-2011, 09:10 AM
So the next time a door to door salesperson knocks on my door if I see he has a magic marker in his shirt pocket I can tell him he is under a citizen's arrest and call 911?

FritterGirl
01-04-2011, 09:52 AM
You have a lot to learn, a lot. However, your comment doesn't apply to me anyhow. My wife is a certified teacher in 3 states (Florida, Oklahoma, Georgia) for all subjects up to 9th grade. We have a dedicated classroom with equipment most schools only dream about. As soon as I assemble the new 2.5 inch Newtonian reflector telescope we can start some astronomy. Just remember when you have kids to tell them that Yes, my kids want fries with that.

Sorry gotta go, my son needs me to check his math work.

Kerry, there's no need to be smug about your situation. Not everybody is as fortunate as you seem to be in that they can homeschool, or be homeschooled. Be grateful you have the opportunity, but don't knock those that don't.

Thunder
01-04-2011, 09:53 AM
What dismayed said. Now, the question is... Where and how did the student obtained the marker? If he got it from the teacher or it was available in the classroom, then technically by the city ordinance, he had full permission to possess and use the marker. If that can be determined, then the arrest was unlawful and unwarranted. Parents will need to sue the city and/or police department. The parents will also need to sue the school for allowing the situation to progress any further than possible punishment if the student actually was caught marking on the desk directly.

There are several scenarios that needs to be visited.

1. If the student obtained the marker from the teacher or it was readily available in the classroom, then by default, the permission is there for that student to use it. Therefore, an arrest should have not ever taken place.

2. If the student brought the marker to school, then what was the time frame of the student being visible with a marker and in use of it. If the teacher were aware, but did nothing until to the point of the desk situation, then the student had, by default, full permission.

3. The questioning regarding the teacher's overly exaggerated action. Did the student directly marked the desk, as accused, or was it just simply a case of accidental ink bleeding through the paper. The desk can be sent to a lab or however option is appropriate to determine if it was either one of the events or both. And the proper process of questioning nearby students as to what they had seen.

4. If the student was found to have marked the desk directly, then proper punishment should be done by the school only without the involvement of the police. If it was determined to be accidental, then no punishment should take place. The parents will need to obtain (hopefully if they are smart) the paper as evidence to compare against the desk to prove it was accidental, if that is to be the case.

I wonder where is that piece of paper. If the teacher and/or police took it and possibly destroyed it (or threw away) then it is such a suspicious action. It all comes down to just how smart and strong the parents are to protect this student, because in today's society, the public will almost always side with the school and officials.

The teacher is using the position to get away with it. The police is using the position to get away with it. The school is using position for whatever their sick agendas may be. Obviously, the police officer had the power right there to advise against the arrest and to suggest the school investigate the situation on their own. This school stinks, and so does the OKC police department. Just another reason for me to flip-off each OKC police car I drive by (as this is my way of expressing my Freedom of Speech right). If they want to cry about that, then so be it, I can sue them the instant they lay a finger on me.

We should not just sit by and do nothing. The general public obviously need to start an uproar protest. Hell, even start a donation drive to help replace the frickin' desk and to help relocate the boy to another school and/or district.

kevinpate
01-04-2011, 09:56 AM
And if frogs had wings, they wouldn't bump their arse when they jump.

Kerry
01-04-2011, 10:01 AM
Kerry, there's no need to be smug about your situation. Not everybody is as fortunate as you seem to be in that they can homeschool, or be homeschooled. Be grateful you have the opportunity, but don't knock those that don't.

My reply was targeted directly at Thunder (and people that think like him).

MustangGT
01-04-2011, 10:38 AM
My reply was targeted directly at Thunder (and people that think like him).

Wow Kerry you give him credit for independent/intelligent thought? You have more faith than I and many other members who prefer to remain silent do.

Larry OKC
01-05-2011, 01:25 AM
So the next time a door to door salesperson knocks on my door if I see he has a magic marker in his shirt pocket I can tell him he is under a citizen's arrest and call 911?

At 1st was going to say "yup" but then according to this article, only if the salesman is a minor

http://www.newsok.com/district-responds-to-student-arrest-over-marker-possession/article/3529616?custom_click=headlines_widget#


According to Oklahoma City ordinance, it is a misdemeanor for a minor to possess a spray paint or a permanent marker on public property without the supervision or permission of an adult.

Course this goes against the earlier one cited that said private property (unless there are 2 different ordinances)??

bombermwc
01-05-2011, 06:50 AM
Kerry - I graduated from HS in 00, so it's not like I'm 80 or anything. Thunder - I think you aren't aware of a lot that goes on in the homeschool world these days. Basically, you are both a little right and wrong. Thunder - I've known quite a few homeschool kids (those that have graduated and those still in it, parents of them, etc). The co-ops are an even more specialized group with even more resources where parents teach a particular specialty. There is homeschool band/orchestra available. The kids play in homeschool sports (in fact things like basketball travel more to other states and get to see more than an public school kid does). Yes, there are some families that choose not to have their children interact in these other situations and leave them at home without the social world....and they have problems. But to say it's all homeschool's fault isn't fair. You've got kids in homeschool and public school that do well in their scores/social skills, and those that don't know what either is.

I don't think it's fair for either side to say one is better than the other. Some schools/districts do a great job...others stink. Same goes with homeschool groups/parents.

This particular case with the marker is one example of how there were a lot of poor decisions made on the part of the administration at that school. And to find an ordinance to punish the student shows that the administrators were looking for an excuse to make a stink about this....seeking media attention. Sometimes they think that shows they "mean business" to the other kids, when in reality, it just makes everyone think they are a "douchebag". Point in case, Rodney Stearns at U.S. Grant with his attendance policy. Small world, he was my 8th grade English teacher at Jarman in Mid-Del. His brother was the MCHS principal for years until recently when he moved to the warehouse (fewer night activities, less stress, more time off....man i'd take it too). The Stearns at MCHS was the one that brought the wrestler I spoke of up to a media stir in his first year as principal there. They are both very nice, and VERY supportive educators, and both do an excellent job. But sometimes (especially those new to that post) get carried away and make some poor decisions.