Thoughts people?
http://axiomamuse.wordpress.com/2010/12/15/simcity-urban-nightmare/

Here is the text of the article, sorry I didn't post it yesterday, I was posting from my phone.

http://axiomamuse.wordpress.com/2010/12/15/simcity-urban-nightmare/

In Best-Laid Plans, the Antiplanner argues that cities are too complicated to plan, so anyone who tries to plan them ends up following fads and focusing on one or two goals to the near-exclusion of all else. The current fad is to reduce per capita driving by increasing density and spending money on rail transit.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NTJQTc-TqpU&feature=player_embedded

The logical end product of such narrow-minded planning is illustrated by a SimCity constructed by Vincent Ocasla, an architecture student from the Philippines. His goal was to build the densest possible SimCity, and the result is a landscape that is almost entirely covered by high-rise towers used for both residences and work. There are no streets and residents travel either on foot or by subway. There is little need for travel, however, as most residents live in the same tower in which they work.

The current fad is to reduce per capita driving by increasing density and spending money on rail transit.


That isn't a fad, high density is how humans have lived in cities since the dawn of time. Suburbia is the fad.

cities are too complicated to plan, so anyone who tries to plan them ends up following fads and focusing on one or two goals to the near-exclusion of all else.

Wouldn't you agree that it was this kind of thinking that lead to Urban Renewal and it was also this kind of thinking that resulted in the pouring of resources into the suburbs leaving downtown to fend for it's self? While I agree with your point Kerry that this effort in urban revitalization is an attempt to correct the trends of the past, lets make sure that while we are doing this that we aren't following the current fads and only focus on one or two goals.

Maybe they author of that story needs to check out Singapore. Population, 5,000,000 and they have one of the lowest crime rates in the world (and here is probably why: 46.8 drug offenses per 100,000 people)

http://www.nationmaster.com/country/sn-singapore/cri-crime

http://www.hertwecks.com/2004-10c_Singapore_Skyline.jpg

http://top-10-list.org/wp-content/uploads/2009/09/Singapore.jpg

http://www.orangesmile.com/destinations/img/singapore-map-metro-big.gif

http://farm2.static.flickr.com/1280/537129416_d29e05503e.jpg

BTW - US has 560.1 drug offenses per 100,000 people.

Are the drug laws the same? Seems silly to put out a stat like that if the legal clarifications of "drug offense" is different.

No way you can compare Singapore to us here. Obviously whoever compares it has never been to Singapore. Singapore is a city-state and has virtually no area to work with. The laws are totally different, as is the culture. Nothing to compare. That is like comparing Abu Dhabi to us.

And, the original point was that continuously adding density isn't always welcome. When pointed out that density has ALWAYS been the objective it completely fails to understand how and why cities developed. People clustered in density out of protection, many times behind walls. Then out of convenience of trade. Then out of cost of transportation ($ and time). Great cities develop and aren't artificially manufactured.

And, the original point was that continuously adding density isn't always welcome. When pointed out that density has ALWAYS been the objective it completely fails to understand how and why cities developed. People clustered in density out of protection, many times behind walls. Then out of convenience of trade. Then out of cost of transportation ($ and time). Great cities develop and aren't artificially manufactured.

Well said...well said...:congrats:

Are the drug laws the same? Seems silly to put out a stat like that if the legal clarifications of "drug offense" is different.

I agree. Whatever the drug laws are, the U.S. needs to mirror them. 48 drug offenses per 100,000 people is astounding. I probably do know or have met 100,000 people..I'm not even sure I've met 48 people that clearly have a problem they need to go to jail for. But we all know people who use recreationally, whether alcohol, whether marijuana, whether prescription drugs, whether other more dangerous controlled substances.

I also wonder how much Singapore spends on its penal system. Actually, I think the example of Singapore is something the tea partiers really need to get behind. You've got a place that is very urban, and efficient cost-wise--great transit system and they don't waste money on it. Their economy is built on free trade and super low taxes and lax business regulation. It's the ultimate free market place. And so on and so forth.

And Rover--I definitely respect the idea that OKC will never be these super dense Asian cities. I actually tend to think you don't really want an urban place to be as dense as say, Manila, but you don't want it to be as dense as OKC isn't, at the same time. We need moderation! You can have too much of a good thing... nobody wants OKC to become the nightmare that some Asian cities are. I'm not even interested in learning about some of those places, honestly...

Having spent a fair amount of time in Singapore I don't think it is someplace most Oklahomans would caRe to live. Many laws are unduly restrictive and personal freedom is not valued. And the place is sterile feeling...it feels as if it is a fake city in many ways.a. Qthe few places preserved are the best parts...the old tea warehouses on the quad, etc. Still no enough.

Hey, I didn't say I wanted Singapore copied, just pointing to certain common political concepts. It's a very business-dominant society. Kind of an Asian version of some of these gulf coast corporate towns, like Lake Jackson, TX.

Hey, I didn't say I wanted Singapore copied, just pointing to certain common political concepts. It's a very business-dominant society. Kind of an Asian version of some of these gulf coast corporate towns, like Lake Jackson, TX.

First time I've ever heard THAT comparison.:lol2:

Good one Spartan.

Places don't have to be 100% similar to be compared. They just have to share a common characteristic, and I was kind of going for a comparison out of left field anyway..

What drives Singapore is the worlds greatest natural deep water port and strategic geographic positioning among great populations and strategic sea routes. And, after their independence 45 years ago they took advantage of that with a very open business climate to have great expansion.

However, Singapore has the highest execution rates in the world and freedom of press seems pretty limited. Oh, they have also doubled their GST (Goods and Services Taxes) over the past few years.

That said, if you like the highly, highly dense urban experience it rates high as I believe it is either the first or second most dense city in the world. They have wonderful architecture and virtually everything is modern. They also have perhaps my favorite hotel in the world, Raffles, and the best bar in the world at Raffles, so it can't be all bad.

Anyone care to guess what key element London, San Antonio, and Riga, Latvia all share?

Let me guess....central planning?

Nope, they all have an Alamo. (or in the case of London, a Texas Embassy..same thing)

Nope, they all have an Alamo. (or in the case of London, a Texas Embassy..same thing)

I ate there. It wasn't that good.

However, Singapore has the highest execution rates in the world and freedom of press seems pretty limited. Oh, they have also doubled their GST (Goods and Services Taxes) over the past few years.

Don't make stuff up, especially when it is soooo easy to prove otherwise. Singapore has one of the lowest execution rates in the world. It also has one of the lowest murder rates in the world so there is less reason to execute people.
http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/cri_exe-crime-executions

I agree. Whatever the drug laws are, the U.S. needs to mirror them. 48 drug offenses per 100,000 people is astounding.

There's a lot of money and political capital tied up in the drug war. You remove that, lots of people who are paying big bucks to the political types will stop making money.

Don't make stuff up, especially when it is soooo easy to prove otherwise. Singapore has one of the lowest execution rates in the world. It also has one of the lowest murder rates in the world so there is less reason to execute people.
http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/cri_exe-crime-executions

The claim regarding execution rates comes from Amnesty International. Their high execution rate is because of the death penalty for most drug offenses. The state also has the right to name their penalties on any number of offenses. You assume the death penalty is only given for murders such as we do here.

BTW, trial by jury has been abolished. And for many offenses there is a presumption of guilt, not of innocence. Military service is mandated for two years and you can be called up at any time up to age 40 (50 in some cases). Exorbitant fines are given for such things as dirty and dented cars, etc. Caning is still an accepted form of punishment. Etc., etc., etc.

All I am saying, and back to topic, BE CAREFUL when allowing the government to plan too much of your society. Though it may appear great for awhile, you are opening the door to much worse things when the government presumes to know best for everyone.

The claim regarding execution rates comes from Amnesty International. Their high execution rate is because of the death penalty for most drug offenses. The state also has the right to name their penalties on any number of offenses. You assume the death penalty is only given for murders such as we do here.

Then Amnesty Internation is full of crap. 2007 are the most recent figures and Singapore had 2 excutions. To my knowledge Singapore doesn't have a planned economy or planned society - what they do have is high density development and that is what this thread is about. Oklahoma has half the population of Singapore but averages more executions per year.

BTW - those fines and canings is probably why they have virtually no crime.

.

BTW - those fines and canings is probably why they have virtually no crime.

Wow. Same goes for Damascus and Riyhad. Not many crimes there either. Lol. Guess they should be our model.

Wow. Same goes for Damascus and Riyhad. Not many crimes there either. Lol. Guess they should be our model.

I didn't say we needed to model their crime fighting system but we could use them as a good model for high density urban development. Although, I have no real problem adopting their crime fighting style either.

I didn't say we needed to model their crime fighting system but we could use them as a good model for high density urban development. Although, I have no real problem adopting their crime fighting style either.

And I'm not trying to be argumentative but there is no way we can use their model. We have virtually nothing in common. It is a city-state which controls all their laws. It is a deepwater port and strategic logistical center. It is built around water and harbors. The culture is totally different. They have almost 5 times the population of OKC in a confined area with no ability to grow it.

I've spent time in Singapore and have done considerable business there. Trust me, OKC will NEVER develop like Singapore in any way.

I've spent time in Singapore and have done considerable business there. Trust me, OKC will NEVER develop like Singapore in any way.

For the love of Pete, no one is saying OKC will look like Singapore one day. All we are saying is that Singapore was able to develop a high density urban environment that still has lot of green space in a nature type setting. The high density development image presented by the OP is that high density means a literal urban jungle devoid of all green space or anything with color that isn't identified on a gray scale. You can have a high density environment that is still appealing to live in.

What I took away from the article is that people try to 'Urban Plan' they tend to follow 'whats in', as I pointed out with my example of Urban Renewal, there is an element of planning that does go into development, however when the City Planners try to play god with the future of a city we end up being burnt.

The concrete facade on the Indian Temple Building, the demolition of the Biltmore Hotel for the Myriad Gardens, the demolition of the old Penn Station that was pointed out in the Streetcar Thread. Far to often city planners try to mold a city into their own vision as opposed to providing infrastructure necessary for for dense development to happen.

Rover is right about Singapore. Upon a quick Wikipedia search, and checking out the notation for proof on some things, Singapore indeed does have some crime and punishment issues. It is classified as a "partly free" society, too.

I would question how good urban planning leads to this, though. Urbanism is very standard in Europe despite the wide range of political environments. It's just how you build built environments for people..common sense.

The most interesting, livable and sustaining cities in the world all developed based on their own social and economic requirements. There was no template and no single answer. They developed over time and uniquely. While there is certainly ample need for planning, city development needs to be mostly organic grown and not "created" as someone's or some group's vision.

That said, I think the best thing OKC can do is to restore what planning took away 30-40 years ago. And then facilitate free enterprise to be able to develop along the guidelines that the market desires.

The most interesting, livable and sustaining cities in the world all developed based on their own social and economic requirements.

The worst planned, least livable, and least sustainable cities in the world all developed these issues based on their own social and economic problems..

The worst planned, least livable, and least sustainable cities in the world all developed these issues based on their own social and economic problems..

Huh?

The answer to everything does NOT lay in central planning. I know planners love to tell everyone else what they should like, but believe it or not, people have brains about what they like and don't like and tend to spend their money proving it.

Spartan, you must think that Abu Dhabi is the greatest city in the world.