How can Oklahoma City learn from their little sister Tulsa, with the success and failures of their Vision 2025 economic development plan?

http://www.vision2025.info

What, exactly, are their successes and failures?

More like "what can tulsa learn from OKC's ongoing success of MAPS?"

I don't know if the two are even comparable. MAPS is a collection of a handful of big ticket projects voted on by the city. Vision 2025 is a free for all of 50+ projects voted on by Tulsa County.

i think the question " Oklahoma City learn from their little sister Tulsa" , should be more like "how can Tulsa learn how okc gets there vision/maps done in half the time it takes tulsa?"

Ok, why does it have to be a bashing Tulsa thread. I am not asking for comparison of the two cities, or which city is better. I thought people on here can stop being so closed minded, and foster some insight, and analyze another economic development plan, and see if we can learn from it. I am not from Tulsa, I have been living and working in OKC for 12 years, and own a business in Midtown.

But communities should give credit when credit is due, regardless of what city it is!

it was set up for bashing when you go to a okc board and ask how can okc can learn from tulsa lol, what did you expect. but thanks for giving us a chance to learn from little sister tulsa, even though i wouldnt even call it a sister, maybe distant cousin.

I think it's a legitimate question, Vision 2025 HAS done well in kicking off some major projects (something which Tulsa is traditionally bad at). Although I certainly don't have the urban planning expertise to fairly evaluate it, I'm sure there are several members of this board who will be able to give us a clear breakdown of Vision 2025's impacts and what it has done right vs what it has failed at.

I think it's a valid discussion. We can always learn from what other communities do, if for nothing else to keep from repeating their mistakes. It's already known that MAPS has been a success and has attracted a lot of outside interest on how it was executed. I am not as familiar with Tulsa's Vision 2025, but it may be worth watching to see how we may facilitate various smaller projects.

But first, I think I need some education and, like OKCMallen, would like to know what it's successes and failures currently are?

OKC can look at Vision 2025's downtown housing component and consider whether a similar model might be beneficial here.

They are very different, as MAPS is only for the City of OKC while V2025 was for county-wide projects with the most high profile, like the BOK Center and convention center expansion, in downtown Tulsa. Hopefully Tulsa learns a lot from the passage (and future implementation) of MAPS 3 when they decide to renew V2025 in 2016. If the streetcars are under construction or even running by then that would probably be at the top of the list for Tulsa's next round of projects. They already have the arena, ballpark, convention center, etc. all set.

I think one thing we can learn from Vision 2025, is how Tulsa expanded their development county wide, and not just for the city of Tulsa.

That could be an initiative if we have a MAPS4, to expand economic development to the county level? Which would be beneficial to some surrounding communities like Moore, Edmond, Mid-Del...etc...

OKC > Tulsa.

End of thread.

Moore, Edmond, Norman, Mid-Del, etc. are all capable of their own version of MAPS. However, a regional commuter rail proposal would have to be voted on by everyone.

Moore, Edmond, Norman, Mid-Del, etc. are all capable of their own version of MAPS. However, a regional commuter rail proposal would have to be voted on by everyone.

In that case you would likely have to get Cleveland County involved. Something at the metro level would have to be done to get commuter rail going.

Remember Tulsa also tried a county-wide vote for river improvements in 2007 and it was voted down, mainly due to cities in the county not on the river like Owasso not supporting it. It would have passed if it was just the city of Tulsa, but it also included projects benefiting Sand Springs, Jenks and Bixby so it had to be county-wide. You could run into some of the same problems in metro OKC if a community wasn't included or didn't support the vision of metro-wide commuter rail.

Well, one thing OKC could learn is how to build a great arena. The BOK Center is infinitely better than OKC arena. The exterior is amazing. Maybe the lesson is that some projects should "go big." Scaling back the pedestrian bridge is a good example of thinking short term IMHO...

On a side note, peoples attitudes on this thread are ridiculous. I'm from Tulsa and live in OKC. OKC has made great improvements and is better than Tulsa in many ways, but there are a lot of areas where OKC could learn from Tulsa. 20 years ago Tulsa was light years ahead of OKC in so many ways, but I love that OKC has find so well. When Tulsa AND OKC are doing well it is good for both...

I've been saying FOREVER that Vision 2025's downtown housing fund is something OKC should learn from.

As for Vision 2025 itself, it's different from MAPS. For years, every downtown project in OKC was MAPS. MAPS is how we fund everything. Tulsa doesn't use Vision 2025 to fund everything. Case in point--their new downtown ballpark. They're probably going to get a streetcar proposal together fairly soon, as well--it won't be Vision 2025-funded. The difference is that Vision is a much less significant part of their overall picture. Compared to MAPS it's a lot less significant too, the tax is a lot less and the timeline is a lot longer. I like the idea of using sales tax from the entire city and NOT property tax just from downtown to fund downtown projects.

Yes Tulsa's Vision 2025 housing component is worth researching.

Well, there are 2 ways to look at Tulsa's BOK Center. Yes, they did build a more architecturaly significant arena, but at the cost of size and seating. There's no way it would have the seating capacity for NBA or even NHL for that matter. The goal of building the OKC Arena was simply to build a large bare bones arena with enough seats and the basic amenities needed for an NBA or NHL team. It was built more for function than form. Now that we have an NBA team, we can continue to improve on the OKC Arena until it runs its short to moderate lenght of life, and then think about something more architecturally significant. Similar to Reunuion Arena vs American Airlines Center in Dallas.

The BOK Center was also built to NBA/NHL specs and Tulsa does legitimately expect to have an NHL team one day, further down the road, just like how we got the NBA. I don't know where you're getting that about the number of seats in the BOK Center. Maybe elaborate more to make a stronger case.

I think it is slightly smaller than the arena formerly known as the Ford but the difference is really negligible. It might have more suites though, which is what NBA teams care more about..greater revenue streams.

I've been saying FOREVER that Vision 2025's downtown housing fund is something OKC should learn from.

Spartan, can you help explain the Tulsa 2025 housing fund? (Cliff Notes version, please.)

For those of us that would like to know more.

Well, one thing OKC could learn is how to build a great arena. The BOK Center is infinitely better than OKC arena.

I don't know about that. I love how OKC built it. Debt free and at a bargain. Once it got a major tenant then it began adding the amenities. I don't like the design of the BOK center (just my opinion), but the entrance is nice as is their loge seating. With the addition of the terrace suites and clubs, bunker suites, updated locker rooms, and court side clubs the Oklahoma City Arena is bubbling over with a mix of amenities and high end options for marquee tenants and high end guests that are on par with some of the best NBA arenas and better than many. And next year it will get even better with the addition of the new grand entry and atrium, new restaurants and lounges, family fun zone, etc. All this, and for less than the BOKs initial construction cost.

Personally, I think OKC's arena is a model in how to approach building a large venue in a market without a major tenant. In the end, the OKC arena will have more amenities than the BOK center, a major tenant, and will have spent less money when it is all said and done. It may not look like someone's idea of the future, but it will offer as much or more than many arenas and for a lot less money.

Spartan, can you help explain the Tulsa 2025 housing fund? (Cliff Notes version, please.)

For those of us that would like to know more.

Sure. For brevity, you can just read the first paragraph, second goes into more detail on the future of the program:

They set aside about $10 million that they could grant in very low-interest loans to help finance downtown housing projects. They broke the $10 million into about 4-5 different chunks and used it to incentivize the first wave of downtown development. A few of them included the Mayo Bldg (Wiggin), the old Mayo Hotel which is even nicer than the Skirvin (Snyder), and the 1st Street Lofts that are still ongoing in the Blue Dome (Sager).

The beauty of it is that it sets up a cycle where once the loans are repaid relatively soon, they get put back into the same fund and then handed out again to a different round of development projects. They may have already gotten repayments on some of the first round projects, I just know that they recently handed out everything they had left in a second round of downtown housing fund disbursements.

It's a great way to promote quality downtown development, by not only putting your money where your mouth is in terms of downtown development, but also promoting examples of the kind of development the city wants to see happen downtown.

Spartan, thanks for the explanation.

That all seem so simple yet perfect for downtown re-development. I'm sure that Okc is aware of such program and the success it is having. This is another reason for downtown Okc to create it's own voice with some type of political representative.

Doesn't seem like it would take much for Okc to enact such a funding program and set up a few parameters?

Just curious, does anyone know the total number of housing units downtown Tulsa vs. OKC? Also the number of employees downtown T vs OKC?

didn't see this posted yet, but its by the BOK center

"Tulsa's former City Hall will soon become an Aloft hotel, and the vacated downtown YMCA is on the way to becoming a retail and residential space.

The modernist hotel brand was the best fit for the 40-year-old, 11-story former city office building, said Macy Amatucci, vice president of Brickhugger LLC and a member of TOCH LLC - the group that purchased the 2.5-acre site with plans to convert it into a 200-room hotel at a cost of $22 million to $25 million.

http//www.tulsaworld.com/news/article.aspx?subjectid=334&articleid=20101217_32_A1_Tulsas817951 (http://www.tulsaworld.com/news/article.aspx?subjectid=334&articleid=20101217_32_A1_Tulsas817951)

I don't have a specific number, but Tulsa had a few thousand more downtown residents in 2000. OKC had around 3,000 (which has grown a lot) and Tulsa had around 5,000 (which has grown a little). I think the difference is that OKC had a large number of units built between 2006-2009 whereas Tulsa had a smaller wave during that period and their first big wave will be 2009-2011. Aside from Devon, there is definitely a lot more individual infill projects in Tulsa right now and it's happening very organically.

I don't have a specific number, but Tulsa had a few thousand more downtown residents in 2000. OKC had around 3,000 (which has grown a lot) and Tulsa had around 5,000 (which has grown a little). I think the difference is that OKC had a large number of units built between 2006-2009 whereas Tulsa had a smaller wave during that period and their first big wave will be 2009-2011. Aside from Devon, there is definitely a lot more individual infill projects in Tulsa right now and it's happening very organically.

OKC has built a LOT more units in the past decade than in Tulsa. The higher number in Tulsa has a lot to do with there being more highrise apartment buildings in and around downtown that were mostly built in the 60's and 70's. OKC could use more office/vacant building conversions like what Tulsa has been doing and Tulsa could use more large-scale new development like Legacy, Deep Deuce and 2nd St lofts. Besides Renaissance and the Central Park townhomes there hasn't been very much new construction development in downtown Tulsa while there has been a lot in downtown OKC.

I worked at 5th & Boston in Tulsa in the mid-late 70s and lived at the Center Plaza apartments/condos. Loved being able to walk to work. And, there was a Safeway across the street. However, one of the differences in OKC and Tulsa seemed to be the actual downtown was smaller in Tulsa (though more tall bldgs.) and therefore there were more actual homes close in, especially towards the river. Do these homes count as downtown residences? If so, it would be like counting Heritage Hills. Just curious how each count "downtown" residences.

Well the Riverview neighborhood isn't anything like Heritage Hills, even though it has a few lots that still have great old mansions on them, maybe even a full street that's still mansions. But most of the Riverview neighborhood has been taken over by apartment/condo complexes and towers, and its relation to DT Tulsa feels kind of like SoSA's relation to DT OKC. I guess Riverview/Uptown is Tulsa's 1970s version of C2S, but it just feels much more connected to DT for some reason despite the south leg of the IDL..

Heritage Hills-like would be Maple Ridge, which is just south and east of Uptown.


OKC has built a LOT more units in the past decade than in Tulsa. The higher number in Tulsa has a lot to do with there being more highrise apartment buildings in and around downtown that were mostly built in the 60's and 70's. OKC could use more office/vacant building conversions like what Tulsa has been doing and Tulsa could use more large-scale new development like Legacy, Deep Deuce and 2nd St lofts. Besides Renaissance and the Central Park townhomes there hasn't been very much new construction development in downtown Tulsa while there has been a lot in downtown OKC.

I agree with that. Most of Tulsa's large empty buildings are in Uptown, whereas OKC's large empty buildings are basically downtown. I think in this regard, OKC has much better prospects for apt/condo tower conversion because it's all about the available building stock for that. I think Tulsa's Deep Deuce and Bricktown-like areas are Blue Dome and Brady, which are definitely starting to heat up with downtown housing projects. You're seeing a lot of the historic building stock taken care of and renovated to mixed-use which hasn't happened as much in Bricktown, and they're also seeing a large share of infill like GreenArch, the Fairfield hotel, and other cool infill projects.

So, my question is, what areas constitute downtown Tulsa residential vs OKC downtown residential?

I guess Tulsa is the IDL plus the tiny little arena south of there. OKC would probably be from Western to 235, from I-40 to NW 13th or so. I can say that the U.S. Census considers downtown OKC a "low population area" and doesn't even do demographic info for that area. They do for downtown Tulsa.

I think you'd have to have a fairly large geographic area to get 6,000 residents in downtown OKC, which I believe is what it's up to last I saw.

My impression is that the CBD in Tulsa is smaller than OKC and that the residential areas start closer in. OKC has more vacant lots on the outskirts of its CBD. OKC would have the opportunity to add quite a bit of population quickly even without high rise residential in its core.

It's a draw. Tulsa's residential is mostly in Uptown, across the IDL, but the future is all Brady..incredible amount of infill about to break ground in there. Tulsa has the densest street (Boston Avenue is incredible, and starting to see a lot of residential), but I think OKC has the denser downtown core. OKC also probably has the deader downtown core. Tulsa is trying to emulate Bricktown and Deep Deuce, though.

Unless it has changed a lot recently, I wouldn't say OKC CBD is more dead than Tulsa. But that's just an observation.

Before I moved I also lived around 21st and Boston and worked at 5th and Boston. I wouldn't say Boston is all that happening any more now than then.

I don't have a specific number, but Tulsa had a few thousand more downtown residents in 2000. OKC had around 3,000 (which has grown a lot) and Tulsa had around 5,000 (which has grown a little). I think the difference is that OKC had a large number of units built between 2006-2009 whereas Tulsa had a smaller wave during that period and their first big wave will be 2009-2011. Aside from Devon, there is definitely a lot more individual infill projects in Tulsa right now and it's happening very organically.


One has to use a very expansive definition of downtown Tulsa to come up with a population of 5,000. Downtown Tulsa is generally considered to be the area within the Inner Dispersal Loop. The US Census Bureau conveniently includes the entire IDL area in one census tract. The TOTAL population was 3,506 and that includes prisoners. The total population in households (which is really the number we're talking about) was 1,211.

Oklahoma City is a little more difficult because (1) the downtown is less clearly defined and (2) by any definition, the Census Bureau has divided it up into many census tracts. My quick stab at defining downtown OKC by Census Tracts includes the following census tracts: 1025, 1032, 1031.01, 1030, 1038, 1031.02, 1036.01, and 1037, which defines an area roughly bounded by Western, 13th street, I-235, and I-40 (Tract 1037 goes south of I-40 and takes in an area that will be part of downtown in years to come.)

The 2000 US Census numbers for downtown OKC, defined as above, were: 5,553 total population and 2,953 population in households.

Uptown is commonly considered part of downtown Tulsa, and not normally considered part of midtown..

Uptown is commonly considered part of downtown Tulsa, and not normally considered part of midtown..

It's the same argument you get from people in OKC that say Midtown is separate from downtown, while others will say downtown OKC goes from I-40 north to NW 13 (before it turns into Heritage Hills) and includes Midtown (NW 9 to NW 13), and from Classen east to I-235. Some will say Tulsa's downtown is only the area inside the IDL, and that Uptown/Riverview is still midtown. If Uptown/Riverview is included that increases the population for 'downtown' quite a bit because that is the highest density residential neighborhood in Tulsa. This neighborhood is bordered by the river to the west, Maple Ridge neighborhood to the south and east, and downtown north of Hwy 75/51 (the IDL). There is not really an area like that in OKC with multiple apartment towers and midrises, though Deep Deuce and the Triangle are getting there.

I would also say it's a mixed-use neighborhood, with a moderate bar scene beginning to develop along South Boston, which has enormous potential for more intensive uses that it currently has, which are a lot of quaint shops, offices, and townhomes.

There were some interesting development proposals along Veterans Park before the economy crashed, maybe they'll resurface soon.

Uptown is commonly considered part of downtown Tulsa, and not normally considered part of midtown..

As someone who has lived in Tulsa for 11+ years, I completely disagree. It is just not true that Uptown is commonly considered part of downtown Tulsa. I have known a bunch of people who have lived and worked in Uptown Tulsa over the years, and not one of them has ever described where they live/work as being "downtown Tulsa". It only becomes part of downtown Tulsa when Tulsa boosters want to juice up their downtown residential numbers.

I guess we can agree with that. We all just kind of defer to the people behind the scenes, and they're all juicing the numbers up.

DT Tulsa Unlimited or whatever their booster group is counts Uptown. I personally count Midtown as a downtown OKC neighborhood, but there's not a highway between the two either..

I guess we can agree with that. We all just kind of defer to the people behind the scenes, and they're all juicing the numbers up.

DT Tulsa Unlimited or whatever their booster group is counts Uptown. I personally count Midtown as a downtown OKC neighborhood, but there's not a highway between the two either..

No doubt chambers of commerce and organization such as DT Tulsa Unlimited tend to juice their numbers. That's why I do not defer to the people behind the scenes, but prefer to go with the hard unbiased facts provided by the US Census Bureau.

I do think it's significant though that the map I saw defined DT OKC as a low-population area and didn't even show demographic trends for it. I didn't see that for other cities' downtowns, not even Tulsa's. Hell, not even STL's CBD.

I do think it's significant though that the map I saw defined DT OKC as a low-population area and didn't even show demographic trends for it. I didn't see that for other cities' downtowns, not even Tulsa's. Hell, not even STL's CBD.

Probably entirely the result of the formatting of the Census Tracts. As mentioned above, what is normally and realistically considered downtown OKC is divided up into eight different census tracts, while all of downtown Tulsa is one single census tract. If one were to divide downtown Tulsa similarly, there is little doubt that at least one of those census tracts would have had no demographic trends as well (especially in the 2000 census).

It's the same argument you get from people in OKC that say Midtown is separate from downtown, while others will say downtown OKC goes from I-40 north to NW 13 (before it turns into Heritage Hills) and includes Midtown (NW 9 to NW 13), and from Classen east to I-235. Some will say Tulsa's downtown is only the area inside the IDL, and that Uptown/Riverview is still midtown. If Uptown/Riverview is included that increases the population for 'downtown' quite a bit because that is the highest density residential neighborhood in Tulsa. This neighborhood is bordered by the river to the west, Maple Ridge neighborhood to the south and east, and downtown north of Hwy 75/51 (the IDL). There is not really an area like that in OKC with multiple apartment towers and midrises, though Deep Deuce and the Triangle are getting there.

Other than Center Plaza and the round tower south of downtown (which isn't really downtown), what other residential towers are there in downtown Tulsa now? CP was built 40 years ago and the round one pre-dates it, so what ones have been built in the last decade or so?

Other than Center Plaza and the round tower south of downtown (which isn't really downtown), what other residential towers are there in downtown Tulsa now? CP was built 40 years ago and the round one pre-dates it, so what ones have been built in the last decade or so?

University Club (the round tower) is the tallest at 30+ stories at 17th & Carson, and another 8 story apartment building next to it. Central Park condos are two 20+ story towers at 7th & Elwood. There is a 30 story highrise condo tower at 15th & Boulder. Sophia Plaza is 10 stories I think at 15th & Frisco. 2300 Riverside is over 20 stories at 23rd & Riverside. There are a few others but those are the tallest, and you are correct none have been built since the late 70's and they are not downtown (except Central Park) but in Uptown/Riverview just south of downtown. There was a proposal for an 18 story condo tower at 21st & Main in the late 90's but it was shot down by Maple Ridge NIMBY's.

Tulsa is doing some incredible things downtown, and they are the kinds of things we want more of in OKC. That they're able to leverage dollars from Vision 2025 to repurpose buildings to residential and retail to me is definitely something we could learn from. I know the Snyder's and they are like angels for Downtown Tulsa.

As a proud OKC resident, I for one am thrilled to see Tulsa moving forward!

According to Tulsa's own reporting, the aggregate of downtown and near downtown (feeder) neighborhoods has actually DECREASED in population since 1990 and 2000 by a little more than 500 people. Downtown has less than 1,000 residents. Riverview/Uptown was the single biggest loser over the time frame.

Single males made up almost half of the core area with few families. Over half of the households in the Downtown Area Neighborhoods have incomes of less than $25,000 with 35% less than $15,000 per household.

Here is a fairly in-depth, up-to-date study on downtown housing in Tulsa. http://www.cityoftulsa.org/media/81277/final%20tulsa%20downtown%20area%20housing%20findin gs%20report.pdf

One of the most telling things in the Tulsa report, and probably holds true in OKC as well, was that by far the majority of respondants to the survey state that they want to be downtown but won't move there unless it costs them the same or less money. That means that unless the properites are subsidized, it isn't going to happen on a large scale. New construction and retrofit of older buildings just cost more, not less. And downtown generally costs more, not less. I think the best thing is to get first timer's to buy and rent downtown BEFORE they get accustomed to the prices in the suburbs. That supports the contention that lower cost "for-rent" property is the most promising for developers.

I always read the studies and take them with a grain of salt. Everyone wants things but few want to pay for them. The real test is when the properties actually go on the market. The OKC downtown demand in the study in 2005 was very rosy. (BTW, I think it is the same company that produced the Tulsa report.) Extrapolating numbers is easy.

Overly optimistic reports are a major reason why we have had the real estate collapses we have had. Every major project I have worked on that is now unfinished and in bankruptcy started with a great forecast of demand. The scepticism now forced on the banks is the result. It is hard to get private developers and bankers to agree on investing/loaning millions of $ based on "studies".

Well, what has worked for the few downtown OKC condo buyers is that we've been touting the cost benefits of moving downtown. I know Tulsans are doing this too, but I don't think to the extent that OKC developers have, just because you ARE more likely to get drawn into OKC's downtown from the suburbs than you are Tulsa's downtown. That's just a simple fact we can all agree on. OKC's downtown is a downtown built for suburbanites, whereas Tulsa is more of a local downtown, different vibe. If you live in the suburbs the only reason you're going to be pulled down is for a concert or for work, so there may NOT be that much to factor into a cost benefit analysis.

Well, what has worked for the few downtown OKC condo buyers is that we've been touting the cost benefits of moving downtown. I know Tulsans are doing this too, but I don't think to the extent that OKC developers have, just because you ARE more likely to get drawn into OKC's downtown from the suburbs than you are Tulsa's downtown. That's just a simple fact we can all agree on. OKC's downtown is a downtown built for suburbanites, whereas Tulsa is more of a local downtown, different vibe. If you live in the suburbs the only reason you're going to be pulled down is for a concert or for work, so there may NOT be that much to factor into a cost benefit analysis.
What are you trying to say? Tulsa is more of a local downtown. What does that mean? Tulsa has very little going on downtown. OKC has fully as much..more restaurants, more clubs, a movie theater complex, art galleries and museum, bowling alley, sporting events, performance theaters, and more retail.

No, Tulsa is just more of a local scene, is what I mean. There aren't chain restaurants in downtown Tulsa, except for like..Arby's. Tulsa's downtown scene revolves around music venues and a scattering of restaurants and clubs that are the epitome of local. OKC's downtown scene is an interesting clash of that local element and the chain element, chain restaurants everywhere, suburbanites bused in by the dozens to go to the chain movie theater and the Bass Pro, and so on.

That's not to say that OKC doesn't have a local scene in its downtown, but it's given in a lot to make room for the chain scene. I think that's what Tulsa's downtown completely lacks compared to OKC. So that's why some of the more hard-core urbanists such as myself sort of scoff at the old "Tulsa's got nothin on us" line, because what they've got nothing on us on, is everything that I'm against..

University Club (the round tower) is the tallest at 30+ stories at 17th & Carson, and another 8 story apartment building next to it. Central Park condos are two 20+ story towers at 7th & Elwood. There is a 30 story highrise condo tower at 15th & Boulder. Sophia Plaza is 10 stories I think at 15th & Frisco. 2300 Riverside is over 20 stories at 23rd & Riverside. There are a few others but those are the tallest, and you are correct none have been built since the late 70's and they are not downtown (except Central Park) but in Uptown/Riverview just south of downtown. There was a proposal for an 18 story condo tower at 21st & Main in the late 90's but it was shot down by Maple Ridge NIMBY's.

According to Emporis, the highrise residential buildings in Tulsa, are:
University Club Towers - 32 floors
Liberty Towers - 23 floors (This is the one at 15th and Boulder so not 30 floors)
2300 Riverside Apartments - 16 floors (not 20 plus)
Central Park isn't listed but appears to be 22 floors.

The Oklahoma City comparison:
Regency Towers - 24 floors
The Classen - 21 floors
The 360 at Founders Plaza - 20 floors
Park Harvey - 17 floors
Lakeview Towers - 15 floors

Not a big difference even if some of the OKC condos are further out from downtown.

What are you trying to say? Tulsa is more of a local downtown. What does that mean? Tulsa has very little going on downtown. OKC has fully as much..more restaurants, more clubs, a movie theater complex, art galleries and museum, bowling alley, sporting events, performance theaters, and more retail.

I think everyone agrees downtown Tulsa is not as active as downtown OKC. Like Spartan said though it has a unique, albeit small, scene of its own that is almost entirely local. Tulsa's heart is in midtown, and that is where you will find the majority of local restaurants and shops, high end chain and local shopping at Utica Square, walkable districts in Brookside and Cherry Street, and even office/highrise residential in the area around Utica Square (Yorktown Plaza and Utica Place, which are not on the list above) which also is home to two of Tulsa's largest employers St. John and Hillcrest hospitals. Tulsa, in that way, is more similar to Atlanta, Dallas, and even NYC in that midtown is more of the heart of the city and more active than the mostly office-based downtown. OKC is more downtown-centric, which makes sense because downtown OKC is in the geographic center of the city and metro while in Tulsa midtown is more central than downtown.

So the definition of downtown for comparisons sake keeps getting changed. Tulsa's focus is not downtown it is mid-town? That is interesting. I guess we could now compare 63 and Western area, or Western 36th to 50th, or the May/NW highway area. I thought this discussion was focused on bringing residential to downtown and what OKC might learn from Tulsa. So far I haven't seen anything very conclusive that the real market for downtown Tulsa is exhibiting more energy or inertia than OKC. So, back to the question, what can we learn?

Well the challenge Tulsa has had is to get people who would otherwise live in midtown to live downtown. It's not been to get people from the burbs to come downtown like OKC's pitch has been. To assess the level of energy for downtown Tulsa right now, all I can say is look at all their construction projects underway. It's incredible.

Hey, Spartan, do you have a link to a list of all the downtown developments for Tulsa? That would be interesting.

Do you happen to know how many housing units are actually in the financed and/or coming out of the ground stage in the downtown area? How might that compare with what has already happened in Bricktown and close in in OKC? They seem a little behind the curve with OKC. We too had lots of "projects" going on. The problem was, many of them ran into the reality of the marketplace.

And I agree that they are trying to get mid-town to downtown. I hope in the process they don't create issues with mid-town. Do you think that people will just move into mid-town from the burbs then? It seems like Owasso and BA are the real growth areas though....further out not closer in.

I did a blog post that I'll try and find that was a rundown of all the Tulsa projects in the works, but it's about 6 months old.

I'll revise these numbers, but this is just off the top of my head: At one point before the bust OKC looked like it was going to add over 3,000 residential units downtown between 2005 and 2010. I'd estimate that not even half got built so maybe 1,500 is being generous. Right now, in 2010, there are probably around 500 proposed housing units, which is down from around 2,000 proposed back in 2008.

Tulsa probably built 800 downtown residential units (more than half OKC's amount) between 2005 and 2010 out of probably around 3,000 that was proposed (not including the Tulsa Channels). But the perception is that it's much less because Tulsa has lacked major projects with 200+ units, they've done it all with smaller infill. I imagine right now all of Tulsa's current proposed/under construction projects amount to 800 living units, 400 hotel units, and a lot of office.

Recap

Actually built between 05-10:
OKC 1,500
Tulsa 800

Proposed throughout 05-10:
OKC 3,000
Tulsa 3,000

Proposed currently:
OKC 500
Tulsa 800

OKC has some huge projects that certainly boost the count a little. The Legacy had around 300 if I recall correctly, The Hill is 160 (which it will never come close to), Richard McKown's project is around 250, Dick Tanenbaum was to build over 200 on the Mercy Hospital site. And so on. Tulsa's just had to double down on the smaller >100-unit infill projects, the majority have just a dozen or two dozen units.

edit:
Here are some pages that run through a lot of Tulsa development projects
http://downtownontherange.blogspot.com/2010/05/t-town-update.html
http://downtownontherange.blogspot.com/2010/03/downtown-development-okc-v-tulsa.html

And I agree that they are trying to get mid-town to downtown. I hope in the process they don't create issues with mid-town. Do you think that people will just move into mid-town from the burbs then? It seems like Owasso and BA are the real growth areas though....further out not closer in.

The suburbs are still the highest growth areas just like they are in OKC but midtown Tulsa has been a hot market as well. Modest neighborhoods like Brookside and Cherry Street became hot real estate and parts of these areas are full of new and/or completely renovated homes and condos. So what OKC has seen downtown Tulsa has seen in midtown, and Tulsa has to compete with that which makes downtown (for residents) a harder sale. The V2025 housing fund was created as a development incentive for downtown and it has yielded several nice projects which wouldn't have happened otherwise. I don't know if the same fund is needed in OKC because the market seems to be creating plenty of new housing similar to how the market has driven new housing in midtown Tulsa. Though I'm sure you would see even more projects in downtown OKC if such a fund existed, and it would be something for the city to explore.

Spartan is correct that Tulsa has had lots of small projects while OKC has had larger downtown projects with more units. That has been good for OKC because a lot of young people that want to live downtown also want something new(er) and with the fitness center and pool they can get at suburban complexes. Besides Renaissance downtown there aren't many options like that in Tulsa where in OKC you have Deep Deuce, Legacy and others on the way.