I get the same laugh we beers advertise "born on dates" and tout freshness. Good/proper beers should improve with age. There's even a major vintage beer market.

Beer flavored malt beverages on the other hand...

Meanwhile, does anyone know if Oklahomans for Modern Laws have given up on their cause. They have been maintaining such a low profile that their web site is a blank page. Nothing recent on their Facebook page. At least, there is still time left for a petition, but such a costly ordeal it would be.

I personally doubt Oklahoma liquor laws will ever change. It's just too difficult to change them and there are too many special interest groups, be it religious, MADD, or liquor store owners wanting and willing to pay big bucks to preserve the status quo. There are a few changes I would like to see that I definitely think are doable. The question is, are these possible without a constitutional amendment?

The changes are:

1. Allow cold beer to be sold in liquor stores
2. Allow liquor stores to stay open until 10PM or 11PM - Sunday would be a bonus but I am not counting on it.
3. Allow microbrews to brew stronger beer than 3.2% ABW to be sold on-premises without having to sell it to a distributor.
4. Remove the requirement for liquor store owners to have lived in the state 10 years before being able to open a store

Meanwhile, does anyone know if Oklahomans for Modern Laws have given up on their cause. They have been maintaining such a low profile that their web site is a blank page. Nothing recent on their Facebook page. At least, there is still time left for a petition, but such a costly ordeal it would be.

They've pretty much disappeared, which is a good thing. Their petition/drive wasn't about modern laws, but merely about making more money for grocery stores.

I personally doubt Oklahoma liquor laws will ever change. It's just too difficult to change them and there are too many special interest groups, be it religious, MADD, or liquor store owners wanting and willing to pay big bucks to preserve the status quo. There are a few changes I would like to see that I definitely think are doable. The question is, are these possible without a constitutional amendment?

The changes are:

1. Allow cold beer to be sold in liquor stores
2. Allow liquor stores to stay open until 10PM or 11PM - Sunday would be a bonus but I am not counting on it.
3. Allow microbrews to brew stronger beer than 3.2% ABW to be sold on-premises without having to sell it to a distributor.
4. Remove the requirement for liquor store owners to have lived in the state 10 years before being able to open a store


Oklahoma liquor laws change all the time. There's been at least one significant change a year each year for the past decade. All that being said...

1. This will happen one day. Just need the legislature to stand up to grocery and oil and gas interests.
2. Probably not. Just not sure the drive is there.
3. This will likely happen.
4. Why?

Not real complicated. If and when the folks that desire significant change become willing to pony up more funds for campaigns, or run/finance their own preferred candidates, at a more extensive level than those who resist change, then change occurs. It's a matter of wanting change rather than wishing for change.

I personally doubt Oklahoma liquor laws will ever change. It's just too difficult to change them and there are too many special interest groups, be it religious, MADD, or liquor store owners wanting and willing to pay big bucks to preserve the status quo. There are a few changes I would like to see that I definitely think are doable. The question is, are these possible without a constitutional amendment?

The changes are:

1. Allow cold beer to be sold in liquor stores
2. Allow liquor stores to stay open until 10PM or 11PM - Sunday would be a bonus but I am not counting on it.
3. Allow microbrews to brew stronger beer than 3.2% ABW to be sold on-premises without having to sell it to a distributor.
4. Remove the requirement for liquor store owners to have lived in the state 10 years before being able to open a store
You might be surprised. I was surprised some years ago that the state legislature had approved of Oklahomans being allowed to vote on allowing liquor stores to open at regular hours on election day. It passed by a slim margin. Since that was a fairly trivial change, I wouldn't be surprised if most or all of your suggestions for change would require a statewide vote.

Not real complicated. If and when the folks that desire significant change become willing to pony up more funds for campaigns, or run/finance their own preferred candidates, at a more extensive level than those who resist change, then change occurs. It's a matter of wanting change rather than wishing for change.

In 2012 in Payne County, it only required one person, the area's state rep, to get up at a county commission meeting and ask members to allow a county election to legalize liquor by the drink on Sunday. The suggestion was approved 2 to 1. If only it was that easy at the state level.

They've pretty much disappeared, which is a good thing. Their petition/drive wasn't about modern laws, but merely about making more money for grocery stores.

Or maybe they got intimated and decided they better forget it about it, if they wanted to live.

Oklahoma liquor laws change all the time. There's been at least one significant change a year each year for the past decade. All that being said...

1. This will happen one day. Just need the legislature to stand up to grocery and oil and gas interests.
2. Probably not. Just not sure the drive is there.
3. This will likely happen.
4. Why?
Did liquor stores used to be open until 10:00 at one time? I seem to remember that and thinking the closing time changing in the mid-80's.

Or maybe they got intimated and decided they better forget it about it, if they wanted to live.

Intimidated by who?

Did liquor stores used to be open until 10:00 at one time? I seem to remember that and thinking the closing time changing in the mid-80's.

I remember hearing this, but I'm young enough not to know.

Originally Posted by Bunty
Or maybe they got intimated and decided they better forget it about it, if they wanted to live.


Hahaha... You can't possibly be serious... I've seen you throw the "cartel" word around a lot... Can you tell me exactly who you're talking about? There are only two major wholesalers and they don't really care for each other... Action would be the next in line but they're really struggling sooo... Are you talking about the Naifeh's who own Central? Are they the "cartel"? Which one do you thing is threatening peoples lives? Is it Brad or Greg or both? We're not close friends or anything but I know them both and I'm pretty sure neither of them are having anyone bumped off... Too funny

Did liquor stores used to be open until 10:00 at one time? I seem to remember that and thinking the closing time changing in the mid-80's.

Yes. I don't remember exactly when it was changed. I think that it happened when they raised the drinking age to 21. 1990?

I get the same laugh we beers advertise "born on dates" and tout freshness. Good/proper beers should improve with age. There's even a major vintage beer market.

Beer flavored malt beverages on the other hand...

Since you are a Beer Crafter you would probably know if this is true or not but we were told by the guide on a tour of Summit Brewery in St. Paul, MN, that beer should always be refrigerated to some degree in order to maximize its shelf life and flavor. Summit makes some excellent products, btw.

Oh: Re "beer flavored beverages": O'Doul's Amber ain't half bad. It's certainly not my ultimate beer of choice (I like Smithwick's, for example) but it will certainly do in a pinch.

Did liquor stores used to be open until 10:00 at one time? I seem to remember that and thinking the closing time changing in the mid-80's.

The hours changed when liquor by the drink replaced liquor by the wink, and ABLE came about. I believe it was in the early-mid 80's.

Since you are a Beer Crafter you would probably know if this is true or not but we were told by the guide on a tour of Summit Brewery in St. Paul, MN, that beer should always be refrigerated to some degree in order to maximize its shelf life and flavor. Summit makes some excellent products, btw.

Oh: Re "beer flavored beverages": O'Doul's Amber ain't half bad. It's certainly not my ultimate beer of choice (I like Smithwick's, for example) but it will certainly do in a pinch.

While fermenting is taking place, beer should be kept around 60 or a little lower, but once done as long as they don't get "hot" they should be fine. The big danger with beers is light.

But pretty much all beers are transported warm, warehoused warm, or delivered warm (even in states with refrigeration). Then they get put into coolers at the stores.

Now one exception would be unpasteurized beers. Keeping them cool is important for life and can improve aging. YMMV of course.

The hours changed when liquor by the drink replaced liquor by the wink, and ABLE came about. I believe it was in the early-mid 80's.

Quick question (non-rhetorical, no snark involved, honest question): Has ABLE ever done anything actually worth doing?

(other than generating the occasional headline about one boneheaded move or another that provides the opportunity to scratch one's head wondering WTF . . . sort of like a logic problem.)

In 2012 in Payne County, it only required one person, the area's state rep, to get up at a county commission meeting and ask members to allow a county election to legalize liquor by the drink on Sunday. The suggestion was approved 2 to 1. If only it was that easy at the state level.

Bunty, the one request may have been easy enough that one night, but there was a long, slow, quite resistant history before it was able to be 'that easy'.
Oklahomans did not get enough on board to repeal Prohibition until late, late in the 50's. It was another 20 plus years of bottle clubs and liquor by the wink before there was a state-wide vote, just to get a county option for liquor by the drink law into place. And still another 26 plus years went by before the one state rep stood before your county commissioners for an easy vote.

Nothing related to alcohol sales has ever come easy in this state.

Bunty, the one request may have been easy enough that one night, but there was a long, slow, quite resistant history before it was able to be 'that easy'.
Oklahomans did not get enough on board to repeal Prohibition until late, late in the 50's. It was another 20 plus years of bottle clubs and liquor by the wink before there was a state-wide vote, just to get a county option for liquor by the drink law into place. And still another 26 plus years went by before the one state rep stood before your county commissioners for an easy vote.

Nothing related to alcohol sales has ever come easy in this state.

So apathy over a given issue usually rules, with too many people being satisfied being denied liberties. Of course, if one never drinks and never wanted to, it's not exactly felt a liberty was being denied.

Intimidated by who?

I don't have anybody in mind, just people in general, like liquor store owners, who feel their profits would be harmed if grocery stores could start selling wine. On the other hand, Oklahomans For Modern Laws might have seen they could never raise enough money to hire enough signature takers and gave up. It would be nice if a real rich person with a million or two to blow would take over the petition process, but maybe he or she would see it as courting with too much trouble.

I was like a kid at Christmas when I went to a Redhawks game this summer and found out they sold PBR. Now if only Chesapeake Arena sold PBR instead of that lame ass Bud Light/Coors Light/Lite Beer from Miller.....

Well, tasting rooms are opening soon. Friday the new tasting laws go into effect.

Good beer doesn't need cold storage once the brewing/fermenting process is done (IMO).




I agree. I have European friends who actually say if a beer is undrinkable at room temperature or slightly cooler, then its bad beer. If you think about it, beer has been around and perfected as an art for thousands of years but refrigeration has only been widely available for about a century, if even that long.

Like opinions, 'good' beer is very subjective as you surely know. That
said, I'm VERY glad you guys bring this up. I love talking the merits of
refrigeration and why I think it's important. In fact I was just having
this conversation earlier with another group local craft beer guys. Without
going insanely deep I'll just reference a couple of good resources that
discuss staling in case you are interested in learning more or think I may
be talking out of my ass:


Cellaring FAQ | BeerTrading.org Community (http://www.beertrading.org/community/threads/cellaring-faq.1488/)

Oxidation and Staling | beer sensory science (http://beersensoryscience.wordpress.com/category/oxidation-and-staling/)

And probably the most complete resource I have found discussing staling is
"The chemistry of beer aging - a critical review"

Now, with that out of the way, simply put, the warmer a beer is the faster
it will develop some staling properties. Granted all beers will change the
warmer they are stored, not all change for the better (again better usually
being subjective). What is known is that for every 10*C staling occurs
twice as fast. That number is extremely important when discussing beers that
should be drunk fresh, specifically IPAs, but also other "light" beers that
don't have some kind of preserving ingredient be it copious amounts of hops,
dark roasted grains, and/or a higher ABV. Beers fermented with traditional
Hefe yeast are prone to short shelf lives as well. As an example, storing
beers at 68*F, those beers would stale roughly four times quicker than beer
stored near freezing.

That said, you don't have to take my word, or the word of those in the
references I posted. Do an experiment for yourself with a beer stored near
freezing, one at 'cellar temps, one at room temp, and if you're feeling
frisky, one stored in your garage or attic, and do a side by side and see if
you notice a difference. I bet you'd be surprised!

Just because refrigeration is relatively new in the game doesn't mean it
isn't extremely important.




I get the same laugh we beers advertise "born on dates" and tout freshness. Good/proper beers should improve with age. There's even a major vintage beer market.

Beer flavored malt beverages on the other hand...

"born on dates" is a great tool in determining what you have, it shows
variances in batch to batch and ultimately lets you know if you've come
across a bad batch or something that's just old product. Personally I find
packaged dates to be very important, unfortunately many brewers don't have
the means or the resources to include this on all their offerings.

Like opinions, 'good' beer is very subjective as you surely know. That
said, I'm VERY glad you guys bring this up. I love talking the merits of
refrigeration and why I think it's important. In fact I was just having
this conversation earlier with another group local craft beer guys. Without
going insanely deep I'll just reference a couple of good resources that
discuss staling in case you are interested in learning more or think I may
be talking out of my ass:


Cellaring FAQ | BeerTrading.org Community (http://www.beertrading.org/community/threads/cellaring-faq.1488/)

Oxidation and Staling | beer sensory science (http://beersensoryscience.wordpress.com/category/oxidation-and-staling/)

And probably the most complete resource I have found discussing staling is
"The chemistry of beer aging - a critical review"

Now, with that out of the way, simply put, the warmer a beer is the faster
it will develop some staling properties. Granted all beers will change the
warmer they are stored, not all change for the better (again better usually
being subjective). What is known is that for every 10*C staling occurs
twice as fast. That number is extremely important when discussing beers that
should be drunk fresh, specifically IPAs, but also other "light" beers that
don't have some kind of preserving ingredient be it copious amounts of hops,
dark roasted grains, and/or a higher ABV. Beers fermented with traditional
Hefe yeast are prone to short shelf lives as well. As an example, storing
beers at 68*F, those beers would stale roughly four times quicker than beer
stored near freezing.

That said, you don't have to take my word, or the word of those in the
references I posted. Do an experiment for yourself with a beer stored near
freezing, one at 'cellar temps, one at room temp, and if you're feeling
frisky, one stored in your garage or attic, and do a side by side and see if
you notice a difference. I bet you'd be surprised!

Just because refrigeration is relatively new in the game doesn't mean it
isn't extremely important.





"born on dates" is a great tool in determining what you have, it shows
variances in batch to batch and ultimately lets you know if you've come
across a bad batch or something that's just old product. Personally I find
packaged dates to be very important, unfortunately many brewers don't have
the means or the resources to include this on all their offerings.

This is why I think being able to sell and store cold beer in Oklahoma should be legalized. It effects the quality of the products we can get here. It would be awesome to be able to get New Belguim beers, which can be sold in Oklahoma but isn't due to the refrigeration laws. When I moved here from Charlotte, I noticed that beers I was used to tasted slightly different. Not really a bad taste, but you could tell a difference. I don't buy the excuse that the liquor store owners don't want to have to spend money on refrigeration. After all, they will have the choice to do so or not and let the market decide. The reason cold beer can't be sold here is religious groups and especially MADD groups who want to protect people from downing a six-pack outside the liquor store in their car. If there is one thing that makes our laws worse than most states its this. Not even Utah, that for the most part has stricter laws than Oklahoma, requires beer sold at room temperature.

Just to give a different perspective on the importance of refrigeration... all the beer shipped in to the U.S. from Europe comes in in unrefrigerated shipping containers... all the fine beers from Belgium, Germany, Ireland, England, etc. all comes in to the U.S. unrefrigerated...

Yes. I don't remember exactly when it was changed. I think that it happened when they raised the drinking age to 21. 1990?
That was October of 1983.....when I was 19 although it wasn't enforced all that strictly at the time.


The hours changed when liquor by the drink replaced liquor by the wink, and ABLE came about. I believe it was in the early-mid 80's.
That is probably correct, seem to remember it happening about the same time. I remember the vote on the issue.


Quick question (non-rhetorical, no snark involved, honest question): Has ABLE ever done anything actually worth doing?

(other than generating the occasional headline about one boneheaded move or another that provides the opportunity to scratch one's head wondering WTF . . . sort of like a logic problem.)
Ummm......No.....none at all. Their counterparts in Texas (TABC) are just about as worthless.

Just to give a different perspective on the importance of refrigeration... all the beer shipped in to the U.S. from Europe comes in in unrefrigerated shipping containers... all the fine beers from Belgium, Germany, Ireland, England, etc. all comes in to the U.S. unrefrigerated...

True that. Go grab a pils, IPA, or hefe and do a side by side with a GOOD, fresh, American example of that style.

I'm not saying that we can't/don't get good import beers from those guys but you can't argue with the facts that those beers have been on a rough journey for many months. I put it this way, ask any local brewer how they'd feel about shipping there products that are meant drunk fresh overseas.

Hey folks,

Coming out of lurker mode to raise this thread from the dead!

This issue is very near and dear to my heart. I've been researching what it would take to open a brewpub in Oklahoma City. Obviously my findings have been very eye-opening. Of the things I've found, many of which have been touched on in this thread:

You can't brew strong beer and sell it in the same facility, as in a restaurant.
If you brew strong beer, it MUST be sold to a distributor before it is sold to the general public.

These two things are a real drag on business in Oklahoma. Right now Colorado is going through a HUGE brewpub boom and they are collecting millions of dollars in beer production taxes, as well as alcohol sales taxes. Oklahoma's current tax rate is 5 TIMES Colorado's beer manufacturing tax rate. Imagine the millions the state could be generating if they would just let brewpubs brew strong beer (above 3.2%ABW) and sell it in their own restaurants!

Some of you might say, "well Bricktown Brewery, Pete's Place, and Belle Isle do that".

Well, no. No, they don't. None of the beer that they brew in-house and serve in the restaurant is strong beer. It's all 3.2%ABW or less. It's the dirty little secret that none of them talk about. Go ahead and check for yourself. You'll notice none of them mention the alcohol content on their beer menus.

What a ripoff for the Oklahoma consumer.

The really befuddling thing is that Oklahoma wine producers were able to get that part of the law changed. How that transpired without tacking on the word "...and breweries" to the law is completely beyond me.

You might've been to Urban Wineworks (http://www.urbanww.com/) over in the Plaza District. It's a great place, with a great atmosphere. And it most certainly wouldn't exist if people couldn't drink the wine right there in the establishment, and be served some delicious food with it. All made possible by that one minor change to the law.

Oklahomans deserve better. They deserve choice. And they deserve better quality. It's good for business and has ABSOLUTELY NO IMPACT on availability of alcohol to minors. None.

PLEASE - Let's get something started to get this ONE LITTLE PIECE of the law changed!

Unfortunately the religious right and MADD groups will do anything possible to limit the public's access to the demon water. They don't care about consistency, just that some law may prevent people from drinking.

I agree that brewpubs should be allowed to sell beer above 3.2% ABV. If wineries were able to get it changed without a constitutional amendment, then brewpubs should be able to as well.

Unfortunately the religious right and MADD groups will do anything possible to limit the public's access to the demon water. They don't care about consistency, just that some law may prevent people from drinking.

I agree that brewpubs should be allowed to sell beer above 3.2% ABV. If wineries were able to get it changed without a constitutional amendment, then brewpubs should be able to as well.

It has bunch more to do with the liquor lobby

What liquor lobby? There really isn't one in Oklahoma.

What liquor lobby? There really isn't one in Oklahoma.

I agree. Is there proof of a liquor lobby fighting to keep things the way they are? There is a very active anti-alcohol religious right and MADD groups with powerful lobbyists behind them. The biggest reason is probably voter apathy. If Oklahomans were passionate about liquor law reform it probably wouldn't be so difficult to get the number of signatures needed to get it on the ballot.

What liquor lobby? There really isn't one in Oklahoma.


I agree. Is there proof of a liquor lobby fighting to keep things the way they are? There is a very active anti-alcohol religious right and MADD groups with powerful lobbyists behind them. The biggest reason is probably voter apathy. If Oklahomans were passionate about liquor law reform it probably wouldn't be so difficult to get the number of signatures needed to get it on the ballot.

So uninformed

So uninformed

So provide information or evidence to the contrary.

"I agree. Is there proof of a liquor lobby fighting to keep things the way they are? There is a very active anti-alcohol religious right and MADD groups with powerful lobbyists behind them. The biggest reason is probably voter apathy. If Oklahomans were passionate about liquor law reform it probably wouldn't be so difficult to get the number of signatures needed to get it on the ballot."

bchris02 -
If this is true, I don't think it really matters or has a big enough impact to prevent making my proposed change to the law.

There is NO fundamental difference in what the Oklahoma wineries were able to accomplish.

If they can do it, surely the beer consumers can do it.

Like I said in my original post - it befuddles me how they were able to get it done without breweries going along for the ride.

To be constructive, what we should really be doing is talking to the OK wine lobbies and learn more about the circumstances they went through and how they were able to recruit enough support. OK brewery interests likely have a lot they could learn.

Can anyone here point me in the direction of some of the people that were actually involved in helping get those laws changed? Yes, I'm serious.

The breweries weren't really around and active when the winery laws changed. Also, folks from the tourism department were actively involved in getting the laws changed for wineries. It wasn't quick or easy. The breweries are running about 10 years behind, and changes are coming in time.

So uninformed

Since Boulder never explains himself, Ill try. There are like 2 or 3 alcohol distributors in the state (the Naifeh's being one) that distribute every drop of liquor, wine and high point beer. They dont want to change because they are printing money right now. They have a built in, no competition advantage and would like to keep it that way. You probably wont see them say anything publicly about it but they are a huge force in keeping the status quo. You can be sure they are pulling the strings behind the scenes.

Also, the liquor store owners of Oklahoma have publicly lobbied for no change, especially the wine and high pt beer in grocery store thing.

The breweries weren't really around and active when the winery laws changed. Also, folks from the tourism department were actively involved in getting the laws changed for wineries. It wasn't quick or easy. The breweries are running about 10 years behind, and changes are coming in time.

?? Bricktown Brewery has been a staple in Bricktown for at least 10 years. Belle Isle Brewery has also been around for many years. Pete's Place literally goes back decades. The winery laws changed to be more OK-winery friendly in 2007/2008.


Since Boulder never explains himself, Ill try. There are like 2 or 3 alcohol distributors in the state (the Naifeh's being one) that distribute every drop of liquor, wine and high point beer. They dont want to change because they are printing money right now. They have a built in, no competition advantage and would like to keep it that way. You probably wont see them say anything publicly about it but they are a huge force in keeping the status quo. You can be sure they are pulling the strings behind the scenes.

Also, the liquor store owners of Oklahoma have publicly lobbied for no change, especially the wine and high pt beer in grocery store thing.
All of this may or may not be true, but to bring this back to the topic I'm advocating - WHICH IS TO ALLOW BREWERIES TO SERVE STRONG BEER IN THEIR OWN RESTAURANTS - those institutions have the same at stake with wine as they do with beer. Yet, OK winemakers were successful in getting the law changed.

Beer brewers of Oklahoma - let's work together to make this minor, but important, change to the laws happen!

Since Boulder never explains himself, Ill try. There are like 2 or 3 alcohol distributors in the state (the Naifeh's being one) that distribute every drop of liquor, wine and high point beer. They dont want to change because they are printing money right now. They have a built in, no competition advantage and would like to keep it that way. You probably wont see them say anything publicly about it but they are a huge force in keeping the status quo. You can be sure they are pulling the strings behind the scenes.

Also, the liquor store owners of Oklahoma have publicly lobbied for no change, especially the wine and high pt beer in grocery store thing.

You waaaaaaaay overestimate the power the 3 distributors have. And even more so on the liquor store owners, which have pretty much no money, and haven't lobbied or argued against this change at all. They do argue for change, and yes, they're against grocery liquor, but they're pretty limited on what they push for and what they try to get passed or keep the same.

If you believe in some sort of all powerful liquor lobby, I've got something to tell you about Santa Clause and the Easter Bunny.

If you believe in some sort of all powerful liquor lobby, I've got something to tell you about Santa Clause and the Easter Bunny.

Agreed. The religious right + MADD + voter apathy = our draconian liquor laws.

The greatest obstacle you are dealing with here is the liquor distributors. Want to know what they fear? The strong beer and wine making its way to the grocery stores...

The greatest obstacle you are dealing with here is the liquor distributors. Want to know what they fear? The strong beer and wine making its way to the grocery stores...
I agree, that's what they fear.

Which is why the change that I'm proposing has nothing to do with that.

The change I'm proposing is to allow breweries to brew strong beer and serve it in their own restaurants without having to sell it to a distributor... just to turn around and have to buy it back. The change is the same that is currently allowed for wineries as of 2007/2008. Just a simple change to the language to add "...and breweries."

We really need to rally support for this rather than talking about why things can't be done. It DID get done for wineries. It CAN be done for breweries.

If you believe in some sort of all powerful liquor lobby, I've got something to tell you about Santa Clause and the Easter Bunny.


Agreed. The religious right + MADD + voter apathy = our draconian liquor laws.

Believe what you want but in this day in age of public policy and politics, I follow the money. And the liquor distributors and store owners are the ones that have money and they could be significantly impacted financially if things change. So Im going to say its them that are the biggest obstacles to change.

Believe what you want but in this day in age of public policy and politics, I follow the money. And the liquor distributors and store owners are the ones that have money and they could be significantly impacted financially if things change. So Im going to say its them that are the biggest obstacles to change.

That's what I have heard as well. They would lose a lot of money from the sale of wine and beer to the liquor stores because someone else (Walmart, Costco, Whole Foods, Crest, etc) would be bringing in their own wine and beer and it would be cheaper than liquor store wine and beer because the mark up would be less. Liquor stores would still make a bundle on actual liquor and stronger wine and beer but I think the liquor lobby sees this as a snowball effect where they think when will it end? When they can sell liquor, beer and wine in grocery stores like a lot of other states? I think the Naifeh's are working with the state to come to an agreement to make this happen next year but who knows what goes into that or if that will be done.

Now, on the point of high point beer sold in breweries, that is a mystery to me as well. I worked at Belle Isle Brewery 10 years ago and people from out of town would ask what point our beer was and I would always say an actual 3.2, not like the watered down 3.2 that is sold in grocery stores. They would always respond with shock that we couldn't sell anything stronger and beer in grocery stores were watered down 3.2.

On a different note, remember when there was a big issue with allowing tattooing to be legalized in Oklahoma and there were so many people against it and now it's like, "what's the big deal?" That's how I think we will look at the grocery store high point wine and beer sales 10 years from now.

Believe what you want but in this day in age of public policy and politics, I follow the money. And the liquor distributors and store owners are the ones that have money and they could be significantly impacted financially if things change. So Im going to say its them that are the biggest obstacles to change.

That's where I know you're wrong. Maybe Byrons, but besides that liquor stores don't have the money to lobby or fight. And really the distributors don't either. The retail liquor association has almost zero budget. Folks seem to think that liquor store owners are sitting on piles of cash, and tons of free time. Considering every store in individually owned, and someone can only own a single store, most (99%) of owners are also the primary employee, and they pretty much just get by. No one gets rich owning a liquor store in Oklahoma.

As for the distributors, they'd be happy for grocery stores to sell product, since they (the stores) would be required to purchase products through the distributors, they'd just make more money.

And yes, liquor stores don't want grocery sales. But they don't have any power/money to fight it.

As long as people keep focusing on a mythical "liquor lobby", and not on the real enemy to change (hint: inertia), nothing will change.

The biggest reason most of these laws don't change is the effort to change them vs the benefit doesn't make sense for most people.

Wine and liquor in grocery? Would be convenient, sure, but I pass 3 locally owned liquor stores before I reach the nearest (and out of state owned) grocery. And I can get in and out of a liquor store in about 2 minutes, so pretty easy stop by.
High point beer in grocery? Same thing. Sure, we miss out on Bud, but otherwise I can get just about any strong beer I want in Oklahoma.
Cold beer in liquor stores? Lost of folks want this, including liquor stores. It will probably happen. Personally, I can wait 30 minutes for my beer to get cold, but it would be convenient to be able to get beer already cold.
Sunday sales? Same thing.
High point beer in brewpubs? Coming I'm sure. The brew industry is playing catchup to the winemaking industry, because while there were folks brewing longer, they didn't work together and promote changes. That's not the case anymore, which is why, for example, you can now taste beers at the breweries.

The Sunday Sales and Cold Beer issues specifically have enemies in MADD and the religious groups (anything that increases availability is automatically opposed by both of those groups).

As for the distributors, they'd be happy for grocery stores to sell product, since they (the stores) would be required to purchase products through the distributors, they'd just make more money.

And yes, liquor stores don't want grocery sales. But they don't have any power/money to fight it.

Wouldn't the larger grocery store like Wal-Mart, Target, Whole Foods, Costco, etc. use their own distributor to purchase wine and beer? I would think with the volume they would do, they could get a better wholesale price on the products than from buying from the Naifeh's.

As for the liquor stores, most don't have the money to fight it, but they have a voice and they can use phrases with their customers like "they are trying to put us out of business" and so on. A lot of liquor stores have a ton of repeat business (shocker, I know) and the customer regularly will engage with the owner. They can ask the customer to contact their city councilman or house rep to get this voted down. Now, it won't make as much of a push as money and hiring lobbyosts, but all those voices could help.

Personally I would like to see the following changes near-term, though I don't know how likely it is.

1. Brewers allowed to brew high-point beer
2. Cold beer in liquor stores
3. Later closing times

I don't think pushing for Sunday sales would be wise at this time. These laws will have to change little at a time. If the changes pushed for are too radical, chances of them passing go way down. Not being able to buy cold beer at a liquor store, to me, is the most draconian thing about our laws. It also keeps certain brewers, like New Belgium, from selling in Oklahoma. Cold beer in liquor stores is a win for everyone. I don't see it affecting grocery stores that much because people who want domestics like Bud, Coors, etc are going to go there anyways.

Wouldn't the larger grocery store like Wal-Mart, Target, Whole Foods, Costco, etc. use their own distributor to purchase wine and beer? I would think with the volume they would do, they could get a better wholesale price on the products than from buying from the Naifeh's.

I would doubt it. Most states with a tiered system still require the big box stores to purchased through the distributors. Any liquor product still has to be registered through the state, licensed, brokered, and distributed. And all prices are regulated (every retail outlet pays the same for the product at any given time). The way the big box places save is through taking advantage of price fluctuations to stock up on inventory in the lows. Oklahoma, example, the prices alternate month to month where beer is cheaper one month, wine the next, etc.


As for the liquor stores, most don't have the money to fight it, but they have a voice and they can use phrases with their customers like "they are trying to put us out of business" and so on. A lot of liquor stores have a ton of repeat business (shocker, I know) and the customer regularly will engage with the owner. They can ask the customer to contact their city councilman or house rep to get this voted down. Now, it won't make as much of a push as money and hiring lobbyosts, but all those voices could help.

But that's not really a lobby. And most customers aren't that invested in engage. Sure, they can push for their agenda, but that's a big difference from an all powerful liquor lobby boogyman that some people seem to think exists. It's pretty easy to do a search and see how much money has flowed from the retail association through lobbyists to politicians. (Hint... $0!) - https://www.ok.gov/ethics/lobbyist/public_search.php

The distributors have spent about $700 since 2006. If you can buy laws for that cheap, then I need to start on my wish list.

Not being able to buy cold beer at a liquor store, to me, is the most draconian thing about our laws. It also keeps certain brewers, like New Belgium, from selling in Oklahoma. Cold beer in liquor stores is a win for everyone. I don't see it affecting grocery stores that much because people who want domestics like Bud, Coors, etc are going to go there anyways.

Maybe, but I can tell you that last time the push was made for cold beer, one of the biggest opponents was 7/11.

Maybe, but I can tell you that last time the push was made for cold beer, one of the biggest opponents was 7/11.
Interesting info. The reasons are obvious. Having more cold beer available dilutes their share of the market. There is also the important part about the most recent push that only allows stores with more than 25,000 square feet to do this. For 7-11, that means not only diluting their share of the market, but they wouldn't be able to offer high-point cold.

The previous effort was a disaster. It wasn't good for Oklahomans at all.

Again, all I'm asking for here is to add breweries to the parts of the law that says they can sell high-point beer or wine directly to the public in their own place of business.

Agreed. The religious right + MADD + voter apathy = our draconian liquor laws.

I disagree with the religious right and MADD being a powerful lobby. Because if it was true, then the elections in Payne and Garfield Counties to allow liquor by the drink on Sunday would not have been won by such comfortable margins. Besides, it hard to think of any pro alcohol questions that have lost on the ballot, especially state wide ones. Apathy and commercial alcohol interests have more to do with why Oklahomans aren't allowed to vote on liberal alcohol law reform more often. You're not going to get much interest in changing alcohol laws from people who don't drink. (I wonder how many legislators who don't show any interest in reforming state alcohol laws don't drink?) Just like you don't get much activist interest in people who don't smoke pot to legalize pot in any form. So at least you're very right on the voter apathy part.

Does anyone here have the actual specifics of what transpired when the winery distribution and brewery tasting room law changes happened? If so, PLEASE message me.

But that's not really a lobby. And most customers aren't that invested in engage. Sure, they can push for their agenda, but that's a big difference from an all powerful liquor lobby boogyman that some people seem to think exists. It's pretty easy to do a search and see how much money has flowed from the retail association through lobbyists to politicians. (Hint... $0!) - https://www.ok.gov/ethics/lobbyist/public_search.php

The distributors have spent about $700 since 2006. If you can buy laws for that cheap, then I need to start on my wish list.
I think you are too hung up on the professional lobbyists/associations/groups, having known people who worked around the Oklahoma and Texas legislatures most lobbying at the state level is done more on an individual basis than professional lobbying groups/associations. A friend who was a long time staffer for a Texas rep and my wife (usually on the other end of the big money lobbying by multi-family developers) have seen that be much more effective than the "official" efforts because for the most part the "personal relationship" lobbying is untracked. The big lobbying groups are more for DC style politics or huge shifts in public policy like casinos in Texas. Donations through official organizations/associations draw more scrutiny than a nice dinner and "conversation" in the back room at a Downtown Austin steakhouse. There is more "shadow lobbying" going on than most like to admit.

I agree the retail outlets have minimal influence because of the single shop owner regulations in place. A few influential large distributors (both in the liquor and the 3.2 beer arenas) wield a lot more influence than an association with minimal resources. They might have to adapt their business model to a new retail environment they tend to be resistant to changes in the current model even if it could open some markets up for them, change is just difficult to push for because of the unknowns. Politicians also tend to be resistant to change "what is working" in their mind because they don't want to stir up those organized groups that want to reduce access....so the status quo remains in place.

So does anyone have any new updates on what they plan to try and lobby for this year or is it just the same, we are going to try and make change in 2014?

You probably won't see any changes until Oklahoma City begins construction on the MAPS III convention center and hotel. Does anyone know of any current liquor concerns which might affect bringing in Tier II type conventions?

I'm not sure I follow.

I'm not sure I follow.

Are there some groups out there who may not see OKC favorable to host their convention because of any existing liquor laws? :lame:



Why not consider the sale of beer and wine in the grocery and convenience stores and allow for refrigeration?


We use to close our liquor stores at 10:00 p.m., and for some reason (probably following behind Texas laws) they started closing around 9:00 p.m.


Bars and Taverns in certain areas of Dallas and Houston are allowed to stay open past 3:00 a.m. (closing) and serve non alcoholic beverages to avoid flushing all the drinkers from those establishments onto the roads at the same time. Could we do the same following our 2:00 a.m. closing?



These mother hen laws are frowned upon by guests & tourists who complain that there's nothing to do in OKC after certain hours.

Are there some groups out there who may not see OKC favorable to host their convention because of any existing liquor laws? :lame:



Why not consider the sale of beer and wine in the grocery and convenience stores and allow for refrigeration?


We use to close our liquor stores at 10:00 p.m., and for some reason (probably following behind Texas laws) they started closing around 9:00 p.m.


Bars and Taverns in certain areas of Dallas and Houston are allowed to stay open past 3:00 a.m. (closing) and serve non alcoholic beverages to avoid flushing all the drinkers from those establishments onto the roads at the same time. Could we do the same following our 2:00 a.m. closing?



These mother hen laws are frowned upon by guests & tourists who complain that there's nothing to do in OKC after certain hours.

I completely agree. Oklahoma's liquor laws, if you've lived in other states and aren't used to them, are yet another issue that negatively affects quality of life here. Grown adults should be able to make their own decisions on purchasing alcoholic beverages.

1. Probably not going to happen for reasons rehashed over and over again, be it MADD, the religious right, voter apathy, or a behind the scenes liquor lobby
2. Completely agree with this and there should be a push for later closing times on liquor stores as well as refrigeration of beer in liquor stores
3. I've always wondered why bars/clubs boot everyone to the road at 2am. It isn't just an Oklahoma thing, a lot of other states do it as well. Why not allow non-alcoholic beverages to be sold after 2am or even 3.2 beer? Neighboring Arkansas, a state almost as conservative as Oklahoma, allows bars/clubs to stay open until 5am serving everything.