http://www.okgazette.com/article/11-10-2010/County_officials_hope_to_measure_public_sentiment_ toward_a_sales_tax_increase_to_fund_jail_improveme nts.aspx

I would wager that the answer will be an overwheliming "NO". I do not like additional taxes and feel they are too high now. Also let me say I am no fan of the current Sheriff or the majority of the administration at that agency. However if we as taxpayers do not pony up a sum of money now, to improve or replace the current jail, then the FEDS could march in here and require that we build a new jail that they have conveniently designed for us and the cost will be in the ionosphere.

I reminds me of the Fram commercials, Pay me now or pay me later.

It has to be done. It shouldn't have been left to amateurs the first time around. Convenient that this is happening right after the election.

Mustang, it's not that the Feds might, but they will if we don't. Just a matter of time. I'm with Mid, let's get it right this time.

It has to be done. It shouldn't have been left to amateurs the first time around. Convenient that this is happening right after the election.

Explain. Why does it have to be done?

Without reiterating the county's threats about the feds and all that crap.

Mustang, it's not that the Feds might, but they will if we don't. Just a matter of time. I'm with Mid, let's get it right this time.

We are in total agreement then. If you want it done right then the only way I see that happening is you get the sheriffs office and county commissiners completely out of it. They are the ones who screwed it up the first time. I know it is different people but it is the SAME instituitional ignorance/stupidity.

A citizens board that had veto control power would sure go a long way to getting it done correctly this time.

Explain. Why does it have to be done?

Without reiterating the county's threats about the feds and all that crap.

Because the Department of Justice released a report indicating serious deficiencies at our jail. If the DOJ files a federal suit, what is likely to happen is that the DOJ will be placed in charge of building a brand new jail, completely according to their own specs, independent of local input, without really caring about cost. When everything's said and done, they'll likely just take a special assessment on our property taxes to pay for it.

If we build it ourselves, it can be funded by property taxes or sales tax or both. Obviously, the sales tax would be far superior as it would be able to be collected from individuals from out-of-county who come here to shop.

The Gazette article indicates that they'll be moving the jail out of downtown. That's unfortunate, will inconvenience a lot of attorneys who need quick access to their clients, and also poses some significant security risks as well because they'll be transporting prisoners on highways, in traffic, over a long distance, etc. My hope is that if they locate the jail somewhere away from downtown, they move some of the special judges out there as well to handle arraignments, preliminary hearings and such.

Questions
-have the feds made this threat themselves, or are we taking the word of elected county officials on this?
-are county officials doing a good job with the money they're already getting?
-should the sheriff continue to duplicate law enforcement in urban areas?

Steve, I know the Gazette has covered this issue fairly well. An excerpt from Scott Cooper's April 10th, 2010 article discussing recent renovations to the current facility indicates that these DOJ threats are real. The source for those threats isn't clear though. If you wanted to know, I'm sure an FOI request from the DOJ or Oklahoma County would get 'er done.


The renovation comes two years after a U.S. Department of Justice report critical of the facility and the way it was managed. The department warned if new improvements were not made, the jail would fall under the control of the federal government.

http://www.okgazette.com/article/04-01-2010/Jail_renovated_but_new_one_still_needed.aspx

Are county officials doing a good job with the money they're already getting?

Well gosh, that's awfully subjective. What is a "good job" and in what area are you referring to? All areas? Hard to say.

As for the Sheriff duplicating law enforcement in urban areas, no, and FWIW, outside the jail and the courthouse, I hear pretty awful things from my friends at the OKCPD regarding Sheriff deputies in the field. Of course, if you want to believe the FOP press releases from circa MAPS III, then you'd be thankful to have the Sheriff deputies in your area. They may be the only help you're getting.

Because the Department of Justice released a report indicating serious deficiencies at our jail. If the DOJ files a federal suit, what is likely to happen is that the DOJ will be placed in charge of building a brand new jail, completely according to their own specs, independent of local input, without really caring about cost. When everything's said and done, they'll likely just take a special assessment on our property taxes to pay for it.

If we build it ourselves, it can be funded by property taxes or sales tax or both. Obviously, the sales tax would be far superior as it would be able to be collected from individuals from out-of-county who come here to shop.

The Gazette article indicates that they'll be moving the jail out of downtown. That's unfortunate, will inconvenience a lot of attorneys who need quick access to their clients, and also poses some significant security risks as well because they'll be transporting prisoners on highways, in traffic, over a long distance, etc. My hope is that if they locate the jail somewhere away from downtown, they move some of the special judges out there as well to handle arraignments, preliminary hearings and such.

We all know the details of the threat.

I still will emphatically oppose a new jail no matter what. Here's the fact: Tulsa County's jail was considerably LESS than $100 mil. They want $400+ MIL for a new jail. That's crazy talk. And I strongly dislike Whetsel.

You get what you pay for. I'd rather spend $400 mill and get it right this time, instead of building something like what we have in place now by going with the lowest bidder.

I suppose it boils down to this: Who do you think will do a better/cheaper job: The DOJ or Oklahoma County?

Secondary is this: How do you want the taxes raised--by an assessment on property owners or by sales tax?

The jail is going to happen. You can't stop it. How it happens and who is in charge is what we're voting on.

I suppose it boils down to this: Who do you think will do a better/cheaper job: The DOJ or Oklahoma County?

Secondary is this: How do you want the taxes raised--by an assessment on property owners or by sales tax?

The jail is going to happen. You can't stop it. How it happens and who is in charge is what we're voting on.
I've yet to hear an actual person with DOJ cited making this threat.
I'm also curious if staffing problems at the jail couldn't be resolved if Whetsel stopped duplicating OCPD, Edmond and MWC pd law enforcement.

I've yet to hear an actual person with DOJ cited making this threat.
I'm also curious if staffing problems at the jail couldn't be resolved if Whetsel stopped duplicating OCPD, Edmond and MWC pd law enforcement.

Sounds like a good story to go after. If Whetsel is manufacturing those claims trying to get new toys, well, the s*** should hit the fan, n'est pas?

I've yet to hear an actual person with DOJ cited making this threat.
I'm also curious if staffing problems at the jail couldn't be resolved if Whetsel stopped duplicating OCPD, Edmond and MWC pd law enforcement.

Sure wish we had a newspaper reporter who participated in this forum and who likes to hold public officials accountable who could independently check out these details...

Of course, if you want to believe the FOP press releases from circa MAPS III, then you'd be thankful to have the Sheriff deputies in your area. They may be the only help you're getting.

In the outlying areas of OKC this is, unfortunately, a very true statement. On the SE or SW sides of the city even Cleveland County or Canadian County deputies sometimes arrive first.

Steve or Mid or whoever might know, at one time there was scuttlebutt about the jail being moved to the east side of town. Are those still the rumors? If so what are the justifications for such a wholesale move?

I suppose it boils down to this: Who do you think will do a better/cheaper job: The DOJ or Oklahoma County?

If this is a legitimate question, then the answer is unequivocally the DOJ.

I don't believe that Sheriff Whetsel is a good steward of my tax dollars for many reasons, but here's the most recent: The brand spanking new Dodge Challenger in full Oklahoma County Sheriff livery that I saw at a stop light two days ago. I can understand the OHP needing a handful of high-speed interceptors, but the county sheriff!? In 2010!?

Sure wish we had a newspaper reporter who participated in this forum and who likes to hold public officials accountable who could independently check out these details...

If I could, I would. Unfortunately, I'm the downtown development reporter and this is another story under Bryan Dean's purview. I'm just a reader on this, just like the rest of you.

Steve or Mid or whoever might know, at one time there was scuttlebutt about the jail being moved to the east side of town. Are those still the rumors? If so what are the justifications for such a wholesale move?

I've heard the Sheriff has his eyes on Choctaw.

Knowing about as much as anyone else, the new site is supposed to be in the 60-80 acre range, so the reason for such a far out move is land acquisition cost. They want to build a jail out, not up, as that's cheaper.

From a dollars and cents standpoint, it probably does make sense to move the jail farther out. I don't think the security risks associated with that can be monetized though.

I think they need the jail near court. I don't care what kind of intentions people have, the clients won't see their attorneys nearly as much off site. I guess if they put in video conferencing it could work but that would be a nonstop expense and a waste of attorney time while they round them up and get them scheduled to meet - I'm betting they'd end up waiting as long per client as they do talking.

With all of the Constitutional scholars we have here, you'd think they'd be incensed about all of these folks who have not yet been proven guilty being subjected to conditions which would be violating treaties if we were keeping war criminals at Oklahoma County jail.

Denver built their's for around $250 million with overruns and art, completed last year. $400 million sounds waaaaaaaaay expensive.

particularly, $400million to build a jail in the country. If it were a truly verticle 25 storey jail in downtown with all the bells and whistles, then 'ok'. but on a 80 acre ranch in the boonies??????

Let the feds do it, they did a good job with the federal building.

Cleveland County just had a similar debate. Turns out that every floor of a jail is about the same security problem as having an entire one story facility except, of course, that a single floor isn't nearly the same size.

Assume a worst case scenario. OK County folk wake up on Nov. 12 and find that DOJ has seized control of jail operations for the time being and plan to construct a new facility and hand county residents the bill. So assuming all threats are over and now a new jail is definitely going to happen in the next 18 months or so. What, if anything, would preclude making a decision to meet that construction bill via voting in a temp county wide sales tax?

What are the three top problems with the current jail, and be specific please?

Don't know what the "top three" are, but here's a comprehensive list.

http://www.justice.gov/crt/split/documents/OklahomaCountyJail_MOU_11-05-09.pdf

According to newsok, Oklahoma County has the highest homicide rate of any large local jail in the nation between 2000-2007. The Sheriff's Department, nonchalantly replied "statistics are statistics." This is probably due to the inadequate staffing and supervision detailed in the report.

Also, the jail is massively overcrowded and far above capacity.

One price that is being discussed here is around $400 Million. If the FEDS were to move in and demand that we build "their" jail you can bet the house it wil be way north of $400 Million.

Curious about something: let's say a tax is passed. I see county deputies patrolling Western Avenue between Memorial and NW 164 daily, and I see them frequently on Broadway Extension as well (they're doing traffic stops). Hasn't the sheriff shown that his priority is using his staff to patrol areas already covered by urban law enforcement over using that staff to man the jail? How does the infusion change his priorities?

One final bit from me on this: I covered the county for three years. I saw a system that was rife with cronyism, nepotism, people paid $80,000 or more who spent half of their time politicking and not really doing any work. I saw corrupt hires, I saw people lying to residents, I saw people and companies hired simply because of who they knew, and not what they knew. I reported all of this. I don't know of any changes made to the system. A few, but not many, of the faces have changed. I seriously question why there is any reason to believe that the alleged corruption that led to the shoddy construction of the first jail would not be repeated if voters gave the county $400 million to build yet another jail. What, exactly, has changed, to make the county more trustworthy 20 years later?
Also still hoping to see on instance where a federal DOJ person says directly they will take over the jail and force construction of a new one if the county doesn't do it. Forgive me if I'm not willing to take the word of a county official on this.

One price that is being discussed here is around $400 Million. If the FEDS were to move in and demand that we build "their" jail you can bet the house it wil be way north of $400 Million.

Upon reconsideration, after what Steve said and after what I've experienced with county government and our county officials, current and past, I think it's healthy to be skeptical about any claims the County or its officials make. And if the feds take over, I'm not sure it'd cost more than what the County estimated we needed. There's nothing to suggest that except that folks 'round here are biased against the feds for some reason (which is dumb considering Oklahoma receives far more from the feds than we pay in). You're going to need more than your bias or gut to tell me that the feds can be trusted less than the county.

Upon reconsideration, after what Steve said and after what I've experienced with county government and our county officials, current and past, I think it's healthy to be skeptical about any claims the County or its officials make.While I agree with this I am nonetheless unpersuaded the feds will be better.

Don't know what the "top three" are, but here's a comprehensive list.

http://www.justice.gov/crt/split/documents/OklahomaCountyJail_MOU_11-05-09.pdf

According to newsok, Oklahoma County has the highest homicide rate of any large local jail in the nation between 2000-2007. The Sheriff's Department, nonchalantly replied "statistics are statistics." This is probably due to the inadequate staffing and supervision detailed in the report.

Also, the jail is massively overcrowded and far above capacity.

Ok, so I looked through the report you linked to but I don't see where the building is the problem. Mostly I see problems with people. Won't these be the same people staffing a new jail? Where actual building problems were cited it appeard to be a maintenance issue. Will someone else be maintaining the new jail? If it is going to be new staff and new maintenance people, why can't they just do that now with the current jail. A new car doesn't make a careless driver and better driver.

Ok, so I ask again: Do we really need county deputies patrolling areas already covered by Oklahoma City Police, Edmond Police and Midwest City Police? Could the money and resources going into that operation be switched to the county jail? Would that address a chunk of the problems cited in the DOJ report? And I'm still not seeing any evidence of the DOJ actually making threats they will take over the jail and force construction of a new facility.

Ok, so I ask again: Do we really need county deputies patrolling areas already covered by Oklahoma City Police, Edmond Police and Midwest City Police? Could the money and resources going into that operation be switched to the county jail? Would that address a chunk of the problems cited in the DOJ report? And I'm still not seeing any evidence of the DOJ actually making threats they will take over the jail and force construction of a new facility.

I'm not sure. Maybe the urban areas being patrolled by Sheriff deputies are actually making money for the County?

And the more I think about it, the more I'd rather have the DOJ in charge of this than the County. If they're going to sue, let 'em.

You're going to need more than your bias or gut to tell me that the feds can be trusted less than the county.

I have NO faith in government Feds or County. I have never posted I trusted the FEDS more. It is a catch 22. Locally it is a mess and the feds could set a price so high it will take our kids and grandkids to pay it off. I agree with Steve when you are talking about local government (City, County) and money terms like he used cronyism, graft, fraud etc are sadly facts life and not abnormalities.

Ok, so I ask again: Do we really need county deputies patrolling areas already covered by Oklahoma City Police, Edmond Police and Midwest City Police?

Simple, elegant and correct answer is NO!!!

Steve. not your beat, but perhaps a fellow worker at your shop could provide a copy of the memorandum of understanding between DOJ and the County folk.

I'm not saying it is in there, but that seems a likely place for DOJ to have spelled out any consequences for inaction by the county.

Steve. not your beat, but perhaps a fellow worker at your shop could provide a copy of the memorandum of understanding between DOJ and the County folk.

I'm not saying it is in there, but that seems a likely place for DOJ to have spelled out any consequences for inaction by the county.

See post #28.

How about we remove a few of the victimless "crimes" from the law books and viola! uncrowded jail.

Thanks Mid. I hadn't clicked that link.

Steve, in the latter pages of the MoU, under Compliance, based on the agreement the county entered into with DOJ, a failure to either renovate, expand or build new space, along with any failure on numerous other items agreed to, can trigger DOJ to bring litigation. As the agreed measures are designed to create a constitutionally acceptable environment, it would seem not moving forward, after agreeing to move forward in some fashion knowing full well the funding was not already in place, would not bode well for the county.

I don't think DOJ could walk up and just say that's it, give us the keys, we're in charge now, but I do think they could ask the county to permit it if the county fails to act, or ask a court to order it to happen.

Yes, but did you see any threat for forcing construction of a new jail?

New jail as the only available avenue? No, it clearly is not the only option.
Renovate and expand the existing jail are also specified as acceptable options in the MoU between the County and the DOJ.

What I've read in the media, and I concede up front I don't follow this uber close, is that the county folk say buying land and building a new single level facility is cheaper than renovating/expanding the current multi-story facility.

Ergo, as they've committed to DOJ that they will either build or renovate/expand, the county presents it as they must build a new jail or face DOJ forcing a solution. to them that's the cost saving option. Is it actually? Danged if I know.

The latter half of what they say is largely true. My take of the MoU is that DOJ really can force their hand if the county does nothing, after having agreed to do something within five years from last October.

With just under four years remaining under the existing deadline in the MoU, and knowing a tax increase for a jail is a hard sale, I can understand the sense of urgency. But it is a largely a sense of urgency of their own creation.

Perhaps last year DOJ said agree to a workable plan that can be implemented in full by year five or let's throw down at the courthouse. Something prompted the MoU thatis not all that favorable to the County except in granting some time to git thangs done, provided some amtters are addressed on the front end also.

I say we buy the Metropolitan Detention Center from Los Angeles, slice it thinly, and reassemble it here.

Lacking that, we should figure out how it is that L.A., which is not exactly your World Capital of Cheap, built a jail for $74 million.

http://www.kcet.org/socal/voices/city-of-angles/la-cant-afford-to-use-its-expensive-new-jail.html

The new Cleveland County jail building bid was reported to be $23.95 Million but did not include land, site development, civil engineering, testing, or architecture. I think the bod issue was for $52M and there was a 1/4 cent sales tax voted sometime in 2009. The capacity is to be 532 inmates compared to 132 at the old jail.

If the total cost is $52M then that works out to $97,744 per inmate but I'm not sure of the total cost.

If the total cost is $52M then that works out to $97,744 per inmate but I'm not sure of the total cost.

If the life span of the jail is 20 years then the cost per day per prisoner is $13.39. Let the prisoners pay by sending them a bill.

If the life span of the jail is 20 years then the cost per day per prisoner is $13.39. Let the prisoners pay by sending them a bill.In my thankfully limited experience they do.

So if a new one is going to cost $350 to $400 M then are we building for 3,500 to 4,000 inmates?

Or just do what Maricopa County Sheriff Joe does and put then in outdoor tents.

http://www.mcso.org/include/modules/our_jails/self_surrender/con_tents.jpg

I agree that as long as Whetsell is in office and he continues to try to provide coverage in other municipalities that HAVE coverage, then he's not spending his dollars wisely and I wont support his efforts. There is absolutely no reason the Sherrif needs to patrol in city limits of ANY city. It causes an overlap that costs money. For example, if a Sherrif is working in MWC, you have to ask "why". Why, instead, are they not out working rural areas what lack an municpal department?

They stretch their department and try to act like we live in a county government world....WE DON'T. We live in municpal government here folks. It's not county schools, county police, county anything. Yes there are county departments, but that's not how it operates here. If we want to change that, then lets vote on it and change it. Otherwise, quit wasting money.

Not to mention the fact that the municipal officers don't like the sherrif being out there. Every officer i've spoken to dislikes having them around....they feel like it's someone trying to bully in....putting their fat nose where it doesn't belong.

then that is the problem, not the building.

this is why the feds should come in, they can change the way the force is being run. If they conclude we need a new building, then so be it. but the problem seems to be the sheriff and how he's running the department, not the building. If the voters dont have the guts to get somebody in there to run the department like it should be - then the feds can do it.

And to those who said they dont trust the feds or government, then that speaks of you personally but not to the effectiveness of the feds; particularly since there were no evidence given to support claims that the feds would do worse than the sheriff - which is the whole point. ... I agree with what others have said that it is quite hypocritical of people in Oklahoma to distrust the feds - considering the wealth of federal projects, money, and offices located in OKC - I've seen it pegged at 2nd per capita in the nation behind DC itself.

then that is the problem, not the building.

this is why the feds should come in, they can change the way the force is being run. If they conclude we need a new building, then so be it. but the problem seems to be the sheriff and how he's running the department, not the building. If the voters dont have the guts to get somebody in there to run the department like it should be - then the feds can do it.

Slow down there.

We're not talking taking over the Sheriff. Just the jail.

The main problem is the building. The way it's designed you need far greater man power to keep the peace.

I agree with what others have said that it is quite hypocritical of people in Oklahoma to distrust the feds - considering the wealth of federal projects, money, and offices located in OKC - I've seen it pegged at 2nd per capita in the nation behind DC itself.

ROFLMAO...The Feds run Social Security/Medicare/Medicaid and those programs are the most bloated and massive WASTES of money. Yeah the Feds are the best at everthing they do...NOT!!! When the FEDS come in nobody wins, not the department not the citizens. Ask any knowledgable citizens or participants in any city that has been under a DOJ consent decree.

bringing up SS medicare medicaid is not even correlate to this issue. Those programs are heavily political and are entitlements set to appease voters not really do what they were intended. those three are the real WELFARE programs that need the most attention and nobody will touch them (Obama is trying but look at the backlash. ....)

back to point, the federal prison system seems to be run quite well. maybe that is something they are good at.

:slow down there midtowner? ...

If Im correct, Im sure the feds wouldn't just come here and build a building - Im sure they would send in their people to run the existing facility and/or make changes and ensure the new one is up to their standard. And people have said the sheriff's priorities are on patroling and not the jail, so I assume that the problem is not the building, or not ONLY the building.

If Im correct, Im sure the feds wouldn't just come here and build a building - Im sure they would send in their people to run the existing facility and/or make changes and ensure the new one is up to their standard. And people have said the sheriff's priorities are on patroling and not the jail, so I assume that the problem is not the building, or not ONLY the building.

May I conclude this is your opinion or do you have info that can prove the truth of your assertion? Also what direct familiarity with the Federal Prison system do you have to make your claim? I have a relative that recently left the Fed Prison System. When LE Dept's get hit with a consent decree the Feds did not move in and run the departments day to day operations. They don't have staff trained to just come in and boot the offending departments staff out.

They tell them EXACTELY how to do everything but they did not do it themselves. Generally a compliance officer is there day to day at the start until the CD's specifications are being followed correctly.

True Mustang, I (luckily) don't have any experience with the Feds or any other correctional institution. It was my opinion that was supplied by what I had read or heard or didn't hear. And I almost never hear the feds with prison problems and nobody seems to ever give any evidence that I've seen to support they couldn't come in and clean up OK County without some of the bias that people have said Sheriff Whetsel has.