So it seems kind of odd to me that a security guard decides to fire shots at some escaping shoplifters, in a very public place, when there is no mention of them being armed or operating their vehicle as a weapon as they escaped. I'm not taking up for the shoplifters, I could care less, but frankly I have no desire for me or loved ones to get caught in the cross-fire, potentially resulting in a life-changing event, over something so petty. I would like to hear some details as to why this was necessary, and if it wasn't, then I think there needs to be an investigation. I don't intend to return to that mall until someone comes out and publicly addresses this, ether explaining why this was necessary or admitting that it wasn't and then detailing the steps they will take to ensure that an appropriate level of response occurs in the future.

I'm a bit disappointed in The Oklahoman for not even asking the question of "why" in their article but hey what's new....


Shots Fired at Penn Square Mall
From Staff Reports

About 1:50 p.m., a store security guard at Dillard's tried to stop two women he thought were trying to steal items from the store's jewelry department, said Oklahoma City police Capt. Patrick Stewart.

The security guard, who also is a police officer for the Oklahoma City Veterans Affairs Medical Center, fired at the women before they drove away from the mall, Stewart said.

Stewart said police do not know whether either woman was hit. "We do know for certain no bystanders or other shoppers were hit."

Police did not identify the security guard.

Officers are reviewing a surveillance video from inside Dillard's in hopes of identifying the suspects.

About an hour after the shooting, business at the mall and inside Dillard's continued as normal.

But some people who had parked in front of the store's west entrance had to wait to get to their cars until police finished looking for evidence.

An unidentified Dillard's employee said she did not see the shooting, but the incident caused a stir at the store.

"All I know is he shot through their back window," the employee said. "We don't know if they are alive or dead."

Calls to store and mall management about the shooting were not returned Friday.

The getaway car is described as an older, red four-door sedan, Stewart said. The car may have bullet holes or other damage from the shooting.

The women appeared to be white. The surveillance video shows both have long, dark hair. One is wearing a red T-shirt, while the other is wearing a black T-shirt and jeans.

Stewart said police have checked with metro-area hospitals and have not received any reports of women fitting the description coming in with gunshot wounds.


http://www.newsok.com/shots-fired-at-penn-square-mall/article/3504758?custom_click=headlines_widget

Shooting to kill at shoplifters already in a vehicle?...definitely necessary IMO

I smell some charges...doubt police are allowed to shoot in this situation

Well I, for one, will be doing all of my shoplifting at Quail Springs from now on.

The only justifiable reason I can see for the guard opening fire would be if he thought his life or others were in danger. Perhaps he saw a weapon of some sort, which could include the vehicle if they tried to run over him. If that is the case, I would have expected that information to have been released early on.

A lot of people will probably question the wisdom having having armed security guards. Unfortunately, mall shootings do happen, so it's a necessary evil. I do think a better practice might be for malls themselves to employ any armed security. Stores could still have unarmed guards to watch for shoplifters.

Well I, for one, will be doing all of my shoplifting at Quail Springs from now on.

Good call.

Good call.

One wonders what this security guard did to lose his legit law enforcement gig.

The story said nothing about him losing his regular gig, only that he is a member of VAMC's police force. It's not at all uncommon for peace officers to take on part-time security jobs during their off-duty hours.

Got to love mall cops!

Sounds as if he shot through the back window as the car was fleeing. Makes no sense to discharge a weapon in that instance. He should face charges if the DA's office maintains that they apply the law unbiasedly. Looks like the guard/cop took things way too personally. Give chase, yell "stop," if they don't stop then yell "stop" again. Get a tag number if you can and wave goodbye ~ but don't discharge your weapon for something so petty. Another reason I'm licensed to carry and choose not to.

Unless they tried to run him down, he dodged the car, then opened fire when it passed. I'm not saying it was a wise choice to open fire, even in that scenario. For now, we just don't know.

There's must be more to this story?

There's must be more to this story?

Well it seems difficult to justify the shooting, as much as we're trying to. It's going to take a LOT "more" to justify it..

Matt, if shoplifting is your thing, you're probably already a regular at Quail Springs.

Perhaps it would be best to hear all sides of the story before crucifying Paul Blart Mall cop. The media has never been one for showing all sides of the story and as the old saying goes- "there are two sides to every story and the truth usually lies somewhere in the middle.

Facts of the Whole situation would be nice........

So it seems kind of odd to me that a security guard decides to fire shots at some escaping shoplifters, in a very public place, when there is no mention of them being armed or operating their vehicle as a weapon as they escaped. I'm not taking up for the shoplifters, I could care less, but frankly I have no desire for me or loved ones to get caught in the cross-fire, potentially resulting in a life-changing event, over something so petty. I would like to hear some details as to why this was necessary, and if it wasn't, then I think there needs to be an investigation. I don't intend to return to that mall until someone comes out and publicly addresses this, ether explaining why this was necessary or admitting that it wasn't and then detailing the steps they will take to ensure that an appropriate level of response occurs in the future.

I'm a bit disappointed in The Oklahoman for not even asking the question of "why" in their article but hey what's new....


Shots Fired at Penn Square Mall
From Staff Reports

About 1:50 p.m., a store security guard at Dillard's tried to stop two women he thought were trying to steal items from the store's jewelry department, said Oklahoma City police Capt. Patrick Stewart.

The security guard, who also is a police officer for the Oklahoma City Veterans Affairs Medical Center, fired at the women before they drove away from the mall, Stewart said.

Stewart said police do not know whether either woman was hit. "We do know for certain no bystanders or other shoppers were hit."

Police did not identify the security guard.

Officers are reviewing a surveillance video from inside Dillard's in hopes of identifying the suspects.

About an hour after the shooting, business at the mall and inside Dillard's continued as normal.

But some people who had parked in front of the store's west entrance had to wait to get to their cars until police finished looking for evidence.

An unidentified Dillard's employee said she did not see the shooting, but the incident caused a stir at the store.

"All I know is he shot through their back window," the employee said. "We don't know if they are alive or dead."

Calls to store and mall management about the shooting were not returned Friday.

The getaway car is described as an older, red four-door sedan, Stewart said. The car may have bullet holes or other damage from the shooting.

The women appeared to be white. The surveillance video shows both have long, dark hair. One is wearing a red T-shirt, while the other is wearing a black T-shirt and jeans.

Stewart said police have checked with metro-area hospitals and have not received any reports of women fitting the description coming in with gunshot wounds.


http://www.newsok.com/shots-fired-at-penn-square-mall/article/3504758?custom_click=headlines_widget

They didn't ask why, because bad journalism is bad. They think they have all the facts, but they can't even ask simple questions.

"Calls to store and mall management about the shooting were not returned Friday."

Can't ask questions if the people with the answers refuse to talk.

They didn't ask why, because bad journalism is bad.

Bad journalism is bad. Another nugget of wisdom from megax11.

Must. Resist. Urge. To. Comment.

Interesting that he shot at white women - suspected of stealing jewelry nonetheless. .....

I never thought I'd ever hear of such a scenario with BOTH points. You hear of white women stealing but not of there being much of an attempt to stop them. Times are changing?

Interesting that he shot at white women - suspected of stealing jewelry nonetheless. .....

I never thought I'd ever hear of such a scenario with BOTH points. You hear of white women stealing but not of there being much of an attempt to stop them. Times are changing?

Maybe they left their "White shoplifting free pass" cards at home. :rolleyes:

They weren't white women. At least one of them looked Hispanic to me, in the video footage.

Interesting that he shot at white women - suspected of stealing jewelry nonetheless. .....

I never thought I'd ever hear of such a scenario with BOTH points. You hear of white women stealing but not of there being much of an attempt to stop them. Times are changing?

That has to be purely a baiting comment ~ surely you're not really that ignorant.

Bad journalism is bad. Another nugget of wisdom from megax11.

We would certainly have more details if Penn Square Mall had a Toys R Us

Must. Really. Resist. Urge. To. Comment

Come on steve.......you know you want to.....do it....do it......i dare you....do it!!!

No, no, no ... must reserve strength to debate you in another thread!
(I really do hope to meet you sometime - sorry we couldn't do so when I grabbed coffee with Andy a couple weeks ago)

Race card. How typical.

I was there right after it happened and the cops were swarming, people were standing around watching. I asked a nice lady what happened (she was black, if some of you guys think that is important) and she shook her head, tsked and said someone shoplifted (rolling her eyes to indicate her disgust with such behavior); was followed to the parking lot by security;and shots were exchanged between the shoplifter and security. I 'spect she was just repeating what someone told her but it made more sense than just having a security guard shoot out a fleeing vehicle. Because that makes no sense at all.

was followed to the parking lot by security;and shots were exchanged between the shoplifter and security. I 'spect she was just repeating what someone told her but it made more sense than just having a security guard shoot out a fleeing vehicle. Because that makes no sense at all.

Surely that would have been reported if true. I can't imagine every single news outlet in OKC getting it wrong.

Surely that would have been reported if true. I can't imagine every single news outlet in OKC getting it wrong.

I've no idea. I didn't see it. I suspect the young woman who told me was only repeating what she heard and who knows what her source was.

For what it is worth, I have never seen a news report on something that I knew anything about that wasn't filled with errors. Perhaps small errors, but errors just the same. So, no, until they have had a chance to talk to Penn Square and all the witnesses, I don't think the public really knows what happened.

it made more sense than just having a security guard shoot out a fleeing vehicle. Because that makes no sense at all.

Makes total sense to me. Isn't right, moral or legal in most cases, but wouldn't shock me one bit. I text'd a police officer from the district that worked the shooting and he replied the only shots fired came from the security guard but couldn't elaborate on any justification for firing those shots.

Even though its technically illegal to shoot at a fleeing suspect in most instances, there have been examples of that happening in the OKC area by both police and citizens and no charges were ever filed against the shooter.

One such citizen example was one a week or two after the Ersland shooting. A homeowner chased two unarmed burglars out of his home and as one was leaving the property in a truck the home owner fired into the truck and hit the burglar in the leg. The home owner never faced any charges.

There is nothing funny about this story but I have to find it amusing from the standpoint of someone who was defending the Crossroads Mall area from those who thought that Penn Square was much safer.

There is nothing funny about this story but I have to find it amusing from the standpoint of someone who was defending the Crossroads Mall area from those who thought that Penn Square was much safer.

Hahaha! I think that had more to do with a hostile view towards "the man" than a real concern for personal safety.

Matt, if shoplifting is your thing, you're probably already a regular at Quail Springs.

Nah, dude. Penn Square's got all the best stores. What am I gonna steal from Quail, a Zune? Yeah, right.

Looks like the ladies didn't want to give up the $50 earrings


Store security guard hit by fleeing car before shots fired, Oklahoma City police say
Published: Oct 19, 2010





BY BOB DOUCETTE

A store security guard told police he was struck by a car carrying fleeing shoplifting suspects before he fired shots at the car, police said Tuesday.

Timothy A. Kiddoo, 32, an Oklahoma City Veterans Affairs Medical Center police officer, was working Friday afternoon as a security guard for Dillard's at Penn Square Mall when he followed two women he suspected of stealing items from the store's jewelry department.

As Kiddoo attempted to stop them, one of the women drove her car toward him and struck him in the arm, said police Capt. Patrick Stewart. Kiddoo then fired multiple shots at the car.

It is not known if the women were hit by gunfire.

Detectives waited until Monday to interview Kiddoo as a professional courtesy. They are still investigating the case, Stewart said. When finished, they will present their findings to the Oklahoma County district attorney's office for review.

Veterans Affairs spokeswoman Stacy Rine confirmed Tuesday that Kiddoo is an employee, but declined to say if he is on administrative leave.

The incident is under review internally, Rine said.

Police are still looking for the two women. They fled in an older, red four-door sedan, Stewart said. The car may have bullet holes or other damage from the shooting.

The women were described only as white and with long, dark hair.

CONTRIBUTING: STAFF WRITER MATT DINGER

The only justifiable reason I can see for the guard opening fire would be if he thought his life or others were in danger. Perhaps he saw a weapon of some sort, which could include the vehicle if they tried to run over him.

Well, let me give it up to myself.

Will be interesting to pull the report and see if there were actually any injuries, bruising etc. that were noted and or photographed or if it is just a boilerplate excuse to fire at them. However, the gals were probably stupid enough to risk a murder charge over some earrings. The problem is, I don't want some rent-a-cop, real cop or armed vigilante citizen risking shooting me or someone else over a couple of petty shoplifters. Still looks like he MAY HAVE fired into the back window as the were fleeing and no longer a risk to him. The only risk at that point would be the bullets that obviously missed their mark. Reminds me of the Ersland case. I probably in the end would not have charged him with murder, but I would have certainly considered charging him for shooting across Penn and risking the lives of motorists all for fleeing suspects.

I believe I read somewhere that he is an actual police officer employed by VAMC, but not an OCPD officer. That goes to the type of training he had, his proficiency, and likely the standards by which he either held or opened fire at the suspects. From the shoplifters' (think I got the apostrophe in the right place) standpoint, my decision on whether to resist or surrender would be based upon my assessment of the person chasing me. If he's wearing civvies or looks like a store or mall cop, then I'm out of there, but if he is uniformed, armed and looks serious, I'm more likely to give up.

The standard for a police officer discharging his weapon is if he feels that his life - or that of another - is in imminent danger.

Lots of things we don't yet know, and since the suspects likely won't be apprehended, lots of things we'll NEVER know.

Will be interesting to pull the report and see if there were actually any injuries, bruising etc. that were noted and or photographed or if it is just a boilerplate excuse to fire at them. However, the gals were probably stupid enough to risk a murder charge over some earrings. The problem is, I don't want some rent-a-cop, real cop or armed vigilante citizen risking shooting me or someone else over a couple of petty shoplifters. Still looks like he MAY HAVE fired into the back window as the were fleeing and no longer a risk to him. The only risk at that point would be the bullets that obviously missed their mark. Reminds me of the Ersland case. I probably in the end would not have charged him with murder, but I would have certainly considered charging him for shooting across Penn and risking the lives of motorists all for fleeing suspects.

Agree 100%. I sure hope that Penn Sq has some cameras that got it all on tape. Hit me in the arm... now it's time to open fire in a damn mall parking lot?? Even if he did get hit in the arm there's no justification on shooting.

Agree 100%. I sure hope that Penn Sq has some cameras that got it all on tape. Hit me in the arm... now it's time to open fire in a damn mall parking lot?? Even if he did get hit in the arm there's no justification on shooting.

Penn Square has NO SECURITY CAMERAS (making them *you* a prime target for criminals). Personally, I think it MAY prove to be another example of a cop taking a crime way too personally. If he was close enough to get hit by the car but not hurt then surely his quality of training could have better been used to get a tag number and rest assured everybody goes home alive. That said, I wasn't there, don't know what the truth is and we'll probably never know.

MINOR hijack here. Simon Properties doesn't help matters with their tactic of responding to problems with stony silence. No spokesman was available for comment, and media weren't even allowed on the property. Any student of marketing, media or PR can tell you that this isn't very smart. In the absence of factual information, the speculation is running rampant and damaging Penn Square. Not what their merchants want with 65 shopping days until Christmas.

No spokesman was available for comment, and media weren't even allowed on the property. Any student of marketing, media or PR can tell you that this isn't very smart. In the absence of factual information, the speculation is running rampant and damaging Penn Square. Not what their merchants want with 65 shopping days until Christmas.

I've been on the legal side of some matters which really ought to have been pretty high profile (and we didn't want them to be). Really... the OKC news media, present company excepted, is fairly lazy, or at least they don't have the resources at their disposal to be able to afford to be tenacious. Especially when it comes to crime and public corruption. Issue a short and simple press release saying that the facts are still being investigated, never follow up, refer any questions back to the press release. Eventually, the media will go away. They just don't have the tenacity or manpower to spend very much time or effort on any single subject if the information sources aren't being cooperative.

I've been on the legal side of some matters which really ought to have been pretty high profile (and we didn't want them to be). Really... the OKC news media, present company excepted, is fairly lazy, or at least they don't have the resources at their disposal to be able to afford to be tenacious. Especially when it comes to crime and public corruption. Issue a short and simple press release saying that the facts are still being investigated, never follow up, refer any questions back to the press release. Eventually, the media will go away. They just don't have the tenacity or manpower to spend very much time or effort on any single subject if the information sources aren't being cooperative.

Agree 100%. People would never believe me if they knew how many times the media calls me for tips for news stories completely unrelated to my activism. Its like they show up for work and have no idea what they are going to report. I love them (many are close personal friends), but the industry is not as credible as they would have you believe and they reduced 'reporting' to a dog and pony show. Additionally, I do not understand why journalists are not required to take criminal justice classes since that is what they will report on 75% of the time.

Agree 100%. People would never believe me if they knew how many times the media calls me for tips for news stories completely unrelated to my activism. Its like they show up for work and have no idea what they are going to report. I love them (many are close personal friends), but the industry is not as credible as they would have you believe and they reduced 'reporting' to a dog and pony show. Additionally, I do not understand why journalists are not required to take criminal justice classes since that is what they will report on 75% of the time.

I studied broadcasting in undergrad (was part of my major). In fact, I worked for UCO's Channel 22 as an anchor and reporter. We were one of the top broadcasting programs in the U.S., they still are as far as I know. That is precisely how it worked though. I'd show up to work every day, mid-afternoon, knowing I had to turn in a 1 minute 30-second package to air on that night's program and I had about three hours to get the interviews, get the video, lay down my voice tracks, do my stand ups, edit the tape, have it ready for air, and be dressed and prepped to anchor. Sometimes the producer would have something picked out for me to cover, sometimes I was on my own. The way budgets are at local media stations, it can't be a lot different.

There is nothing funny about this story but I have to find it amusing from the standpoint of someone who was defending the Crossroads Mall area from those who thought that Penn Square was much safer.

I was wondering how long it'd be before someone brought Crossroads up

Penn Square has NO SECURITY CAMERAS (making them *you* a prime target for criminals). Personally, I think it MAY prove to be another example of a cop taking a crime way too personally. If he was close enough to get hit by the car but not hurt then surely his quality of training could have better been used to get a tag number and rest assured everybody goes home alive. That said, I wasn't there, don't know what the truth is and we'll probably never know.


Well, I don't know if the shots should have been fired or not but I do have to say, I would have trouble not taking it personally if someone tried to run me down with a car.