More than a week ago, my wife and I traveled to the farm country of southern Illinois for family reasons. While on the road, I paid close attention to the way other states took care of their roads, and how people in other states took care of their towns and cities just to see if Oklahoma was truly behind much of the nation, or if all of the complaining was just a bunch of hot air.

We left early on a rainy Wednesday morning heading up the turnpikes and through Tulsa to Missouri. It was to my surprise that in Missouri, I-44 was in sad shape. Some stretches had been resurfaced, but for the most part I-44 had crumbling concrete, buckled and deteriorated shoulders, and even in St. Louis the freeways did a number on our rental car's shocks, and we were driving a car that only had 4800 miles on it.

St. Louis was beautiful. It had hills that put the scenery around Tulsa to shame. I drove mostly through the suburbs around St. Louis on I-270/I-255. For most of the stretch, a noise wall lined the freeway, seperating the roar of traffic from miles of cookie-cutter neighborhoods. I crossed the Mississippi River into Illinois where the highways were in much better shape. In the distance, I saw the St. Louis Arch looming over a surprisingly small skyline for a metro twice the size of our metro, although St. Louis is shrinking. East St. Louis, Illinois was nothing but slum, with large railyards and abandoned manufacturing plants. Many of the railroads were being pulled up after being shut down.

The towns of southern Illinois resembled most small towns in Oklahoma. Some were well-kept, others were not. Southern Illinois was a true midwestern region, with miles of corn fields and quaint little towns. We crossed into Paducah, Kentucky on Saturday night to shop at the closest Wal-Mart Supercenter to my wife's relatives. Paducah, a community of 26,000, was a thriving community, with a slew of nice restaurants, not fast food! The main expressway through Paducah offered a decent handful of retailers, from Talbot's to a major furniture retailer.

On Sunday, we drove through the southeastern leg of Missouri from Illinois to follow I-57 to I-55, then through Arkansas on I-55 to hook up with I-40 west. Eastern Arkansas wasn't much to speak of. We stopped in Little Rock to bid my wife's parents farewell, and headed home. Arkansas, I have to say, invests a lot of money in their highway system.

However, St. Louis, even though seeing the arch, was not anything that fascinated me over Oklahoma City other than the scenery. Neither did Little Rock, a community with no definition or personality. St. Louis' bad highway conditions left me to wonder why companies invested millions in a city or state that can't maintain it's own infrastructure. One aspect I found in common with every city I traveled through, only Oklahoma City and Tulsa seemed more proactive in landscaping boulevards.

It seems that... Missouri virtually shares the same problems Oklahoma does, and yet that state has not lost a congressional district, and the state is more populated than Oklahoma. Even much of Southern Illinois did not seem ahead of time, and the people I spoke to who work for the state of Illinois faces education funding problems like we do. Upon returning to Oklahoma, one difference stood out after a day of driving through Illinois, Missouri and Arkansas... casinos and billbaords for casinos. We even passed a travel stop on Oklahoma I-40 that had a casino inside... the Mystic Winds.

Personally, it felt good to be back in Oklahoma. Sure, Arkansas and Missouri had lovely scenery, but Oklahoma was home.

What all of this means is that people will always have opinions, and they will talk. Unless you see it for yourself, however, they really is no way you can concur with that person's belief that Oklahoma is so behind. We have improvements to make, changes to push, and examples to follow. I wouldn't look to the midwest for those examples. The grass is never greener on the other side of the fence, so those who take no pride in Oklahoma do more harm than good for our city. Problems exist here, but it is not helpless or hopeless. A person that leaves for "greener pastures" is one less person that could have made a difference in our state had he/she believed in Oklahoma enough to stay.

People will move to other states because an important job awaits them. That happens everyday, everywhere. But the people that stay, are the ones that must take responsibility instead of wishing they were somewhere else.

Seeing five states in five days was enough to convince me that we don't have time for BS. Let's continue the renaissance.

Personally, it felt good to be back in Oklahoma. Sure, Arkansas and Missouri had lovely scenery, but Oklahoma was home.

What all of this means is that people will always have opinions, and they will talk. Unless you see it for yourself, however, they really is no way you can concur with that person's belief that Oklahoma is so behind.


Do you think that maybe you were a little bias, since OK is your home. I've done the same thing on trips I have taken and realized that I was trying to make it seem like OK was better than it really was.

Also, St. Louis? No one ever said that St. Louis, or Arkansas, was better than anything in Oklahoma. If you wanted to see a city in MO to compare to, you should've hit Springfield, for a smaller city, or KC.

Again, when thinking about places that I would like OKC, Tulsa, and the rest of Oklahoma to become someday, I do not think about Arkansas or Missouri. I think of Texas cities that are beautifully landscaped and very well maintained. The city I wish we could copy the most since we are into copying is Orlando. There is not a street or highway in Orlando that you drive down that is not overflowing with landscaping, green(without mostly weeds) grass that is always kept cut, and waterfalls and waterfountains. Orlando could have nothing in it special as far as entertainment, retail, restaurants over any other city, but people would still want to live there because it looks like paradise. To me, one of the best things OKC can do is make the city look like paradise, and the people and businesses will come because they want to live here.

When people ask me which places are better OKC, Cleveland, or some other city, I say that each has its advantages and disadvantages. It depends on what you value in a community. But I agree that beautification is an important step; you only have one chance to make a first impression.....

When people ask me which places are better OKC, Cleveland, or some other city, I say that each has its advantages and disadvantages. It depends on what you value in a community. But I agree that beautification is an important step; you only have one chance to make a first impression.....

Exactly my point. Nuclear2525, my post wasn't about being biased or unbiased, just simply observations to share with the forum. One of those observations reminded me of a point I forgot to make on my last post.

Paducah, Kentucky was a rural community of 26,000, and was not even a suburb of a major city. Yet, it had the economic aspects of a suburb, with nice neighborhoods, nice restaurants and nice retail stores. The streets were hectic and busy, as it was Saturday night. Can you say the same for Ardmore, Oklahoma? It seems that compared to Missouri, Illinois, and Kentucky, Oklahoma's rural towns do not have a lot of economic activity.

Beyond Edmond, can someone show me a landscaped boulevard here in the city? Sure, Tulsa has tons!

Anyway, above someone posted a question, basically asking whether OKC was beter than Cleveland. Erm. I think we can easily answer that question. I also believe that even as close a question as, "Which is better, Little Rock or Cleveland" is also easily answered. Cleveland just stinks.

can someone show me a landscaped boulevard here in the city?

Try 10th street west of St. Anthony to the fairgrounds, or 23rd street west of 235.

But I do agree, we need much, much more landscaping. I have a college degree in it. Every time I drive down Reno west of 44, I think there is a huge median, and nothing in it. That area is a huge draw from around the state and surrounding states for furniture shopping, and the area looks dead. The median of Shields has trees planted all the way down the median, but the trees aren't growing. Those trees have been there as long as I remember, and are no more than 15' tall. There are many other areas that badly need landscaping too.

Someone asked where Steak n' Shake is. The answer is in Edmond near Second and Bryant.

I put this in the wrong thread. Sorry about that.

Pulse, It's funny that you would mention Paducah, Kentucky. I was there not too long ago and was extremely impressed and thoroughly amazed it is a small city of only around 30,000 population. It is very beautiful and forward-thinking place. I was surprised!

Orlando could have nothing in it special as far as entertainment, retail, restaurants over any other city, but people would still want to live there because it looks like paradise. To me, one of the best things OKC can do is make the city look like paradise, and the people and businesses will come because they want to live here.
"Make Oklahoma City look like paradise." I laughed when I first read this and then began thinking that there is a lot of truth to Nuclear's post concerning the aesthetics of our city. Nobody here will claim Oklahoma City as home to great natural beauty - something I hear all the time from those who live here and those who have visited. The truth is the truth - we're aren't going to win many awards for natural landscape. But, what better way to make up for this lack of God given scapes than with exactly what Nuclear is talking about. Anybody who has been to Orlando knows exactly what he/she means. There's a good argument to be made that beautifying the interior of Oklahoma City could be an economic development expense. A lot of possibilities if you let your imagination go to work. It's kind of like successful people who were not blessed with great natural beauty always seem to be the ones that dress in such a way that they are attractive nonetheless.

"Make Oklahoma City look like paradise." I laughed when I first read this and then began thinking that there is a lot of truth to Nuclear's post concerning the aesthetics of our city.


Have you ever driven around Edmond and looked at the houses. There are some neighborhoods with HUGE houses. 7 or 8 thousand sq. ft. However, there are houses that are 4 or 5 thousand sq. ft. that are selling for just as much as those larger ones and are selling faster. Why? Because the larger houses were built on a prarie and have tiny trees in the yards and little landscaping. The smaller ones were built on a wooded lot and have beautiful landscaping.

I am not saying that OKC is never going to look good because it is not wooded. What I am saying, is it would be much easier to sell this city to outsiders as being a progressive, beautiful city if it actually was beautifu. I am sick of seeing OKC and Tulsa plant trees that are 4 or 5 feet tall and will take years and years before people even notice them. If you drive around Orlando you can't hardly tell that some areas were planted before others. Thats because when they plant their expensive palm trees, they are already 20 or 25 feet tall. I guarantee you that people driving through OKC would leave with the highest thoughts imaginable if OKC would do some REAL landscaping. Just imagine what people would say..."Man, after seeing OKC, Wichita or Amarillo or Tulsa, looks trashy to me. OKC was beautiful..."

Bricktown and the Triangle districts aren't going to make or break OKC because most people driving through won't stop. First, second, and final impressions are going to be what makes and breaks OKC.

The one thing I think of with Orlando and the extensive landscaping is COLOR. Think waterfalls, monster color bowls of flowers, floodlights, mood lighting.

When you mentioned waterfalls, I also thought of Kansas City and their fountains. A small investment in the years of PR they have received as America's "City of Fountains." No question it adds *immensely* to the aesthetics of KC.
On edit: http://www.kcfountains.org/

I had never really thought about thinking of this as infrastructure of sorts. Very interesting. A massive project like this would help balance the lack of natural beauty and could be a great public/private partnership. This is OKC Beautiful X 100. The more I think about it, the talk of lack of natural landscape in Oklahoma City is so overwhelming - from so many - that this could be a truly important thread. This kicks up the creative juices from so many; another reason OKCTalk is so valuable.

Funding for a comprehensive beautification effort could be perhaps another objective of Project Next. Okay, I may be stretching the original plans for this chamber initiative, but if the goal of PN is attracting and retaining good people then beautification certainly goes toward that goal. Or maybe some type of major fundraising campaign led by business and civic leaders.

Just my two cents worth here from a Detroiter. I have been to alot of places, none has drawn me back as much as Oklahoma City has, let me add Guthrie and Edmond also. I have noticed that for the most part, the people of Oklahoma take pride in your state. I have also met many people there from my home state of Michigan. The roads here are among the worst, lanes are blocked by orange barrels all year through, getting anywhere is a pain in the ass. Although it is hard to beat Northern Michigan, which truly is GODS country, Oklahoma would be my choice to live in, and hopefully one day I will. I have driven from Detroit to OKC and I-44 in Missouri is one of the worst roads I have ever been on, so I have to agree with that. Indiana and Illinois are BORING. In defense of Michigan, you really have to visit Mackinaw City and Mackinaw Island, stay away from Detroit, dont even waste your time getting within 40 miles of the place. I for one miss Oklahoma and cant wait to come back. Everyone I have met there has made me feel at home, not like that here, here you need to watch your back at the gas pumps, around Detroit anyway. Hope this fits in with this thread, I am just giving an outsiders point of view on Oklahoma, take pride in your state, it is beautiful.

Hahahaha....no people, it is safe to visit Detroit...but maybe I'm biased :D

Hahahaha....no people, it is safe to visit Detroit...but maybe I'm biased :D


I have been held at gunpoint at a gas station here, had a family member murderd here, hear automatic weapon fire every night in the summertime here, no, not a good place, but that is just my opinion.

Why not pass the next MAPS to be for nothing except city beautification. A 400 or 500 million bond where 80-85 percent would be dedicated for highway and highly traveled city street beautification. the other 15-20 percent could be used for other projects the city is wanting done...like the river. The KC fountains thing is awesome...maybe OKC could become the city of waterfalls or something like that. I would bet that if OKC did get something like this started and the citizens saw the positive effects of it, the city could set up a foundation for private businesses and citizens to donate any amount of money to have another area landscaped.

I saw a plan the B.A. had for a waterfall on the hill in between the offramp and the BA expressway where the Bass Pro is going in. Absolutely beautiful, it is going to change the look of the entire area. I'm not sure if they still plan to do this or not.

I'm not sure how much building a waterfall like that would cost...anywhere from 5 to 10,000 just guessing, but IMO it would definitely be worth the epxense.

That has actually been discussed here, nuclear2525, and I hope we can take that one step further. On Wednesday, I plan to contact Oklahoma City Beautiful about planting evergreen trees along the Lake Hefner Parkway. I have recieved helpful advice from other members on this forum, and I hope I can get momentum going on this special project. I hope it sees reality before I move to Texas =(

Exactly.....it was actually proposed by Proactive Volunteer awhile back and labeled MAPS for Neighborhoods. Such a project would focus mainly on the beautification of our neighborhoods and our city overall. I propose that this tax extension start with the end of MAPS for Kids and last for about 10 years. If you keep passing MAPS taxes, you can use the excuse..."it won't raise your taxes...it will just keep them at the current rate." That doesn't make it appear that taxes are increasing.

I hope when Sam Bowman leaves, Proactive tries to run for the Ward 2 spot again. She might be able to put this idea into action.

"I hope when Sam Bowman leaves, Proactive tries to run for the Ward 2 spot again. She might be able to put this idea into action."

If that happens and we are both elected, we can introduce it and add it to the other MAPS proposal to build the NFL stadium and the second terminal at Will Rogers.

To be real honest, I think we may want to push an NFL stadium on to a MAPS IV or V. I just don't think we're quite there yet as a city. Seems like our biggest need right now is city beautification. I do agree though that we do need a larger, expanded airport. Maybe MAPS III can focus on neighborhoods, and MAPS IV can focus on transportation. Then MAPS V can fill in any gaps, still needed downtown and elsewhere. Hopefulyl by the time MAPS for Kids is finished, the district will maintain its schools through regular bond issues, something that was absent through much of the 70's and 80's.

I agree. Neighbourhoods and beautification should be the focus of the next MAPS.

Trees and flowers, grasses
Parks, Pools, and Trails
Community Centres and Neighbourhood "downtown" shopping and transportation centres
Neighbourhood Libraries (with free Internet!!! and expanded hours M-Th 9-9, F 9-5, Sat 1-6 Sun 1-9. Downtown Library 24hours/7days)
Sidewalks!!!!!! especially in the inner city.
Covered bus shelters

Think about it, this list of improvements would be the least costly of the Maps that we will have. It would probably only take three years or so at a penny, and we could implement a permanent one tenth of a percent after the retirement of the tax to "Continue the Renaissance of Maps III"

Another plan would be to separate the city and county library system. Have OKC focus on the inner city libraries, and have the county (a new agency by the way) to handle all of the suburban ones [maybe zoned N, S, E, W or one agency that does all suburbs]. The reason for this is so the library system can focus its efforts on the community without having to wait or draw on other parts of the city. For example, Edmond is the busiest library in the system (maybe downtown is busier now, but Edmond is the busiest neighbourhood library) but it seems like they are being held back due to the inner city libraries. Their hours are limited, well expand the hours (and facility) to meet the needs of Edmond!

Anyways, that is my three cents for MAPS III. Also, begin MAPS IV immediately concluding III, with the focus on the airport, train station (and system), metro bus and transit, park n ride, and entertainment (like NFL, MLS stadium and teams). This maps (IV) would probably be the costliest of the four but its impact would set OKC well into the Tier 1 league of cities (especially when you combine the efforts of the other MAPS, IV is icing on the cake).

Do these Maps III and IV and I bet OKC will drop from the bad lists completely!!!

Continue the Renaissance!

Trees and flowers, grasses
Parks, Pools, and Trails
Community Centres and Neighbourhood "downtown" shopping and transportation centres
Neighbourhood Libraries (with free Internet!!! and expanded hours M-Th 9-9, F 9-5, Sat 1-6 Sun 1-9. Downtown Library 24hours/7days)
Sidewalks!!!!!! especially in the inner city.
Covered bus shelters

This is a good plan, but we need out of towners to experience the landscaping. IMO the first and foremost would be the Highways and MAIN city streets with immense landscaping. I'm talking 15-20 foot trees, large shrubs and tons of flowers and waterscapes. This is what the people driving through will see and be impressed with, not the community centers and neighborhood landscaping. Those things can come later.

no argument with your points Nuclear, other than the landscaping effort really would not cost that much. To make a more comprehensive plan to enhance OKC as a thriving community - I think we need to also have community building attractions as well.

A city could have all of the landscaping in the world, but if there are no residents out enjoying themselves then WE tourists will still have the same impression we currently do - that OKC is on the verge (with great potential and obvious municipal investment) but not quite "there" yet.

I agree with you guys. Probably the largest project for MAPS III needs to focus on highway beautification, mostly the beautification of our entry-ways. Currently, I-35 towards the south, I-44 to the west and through the middle of town, and I-40 in both directions need beautification. Because I-35 north and I-44 east are well wooded, not much is needed there. Nuclear, you are so right. We need to plant large trees, not small sticks, like "Up with Trees" in Tulsa has done. We need a mixture of deciduous trees and evergreens to provide beautification all year. The grassy center medians need to be replaced with shrubs and flower gardens with water features.

Most of all we need to maintain what we put in place. One of the biggest complaints I have with the 23rd Street landscaping is that it isn't well maintained. Remember....annuals have to be replanted every year, and that's a big expense.

Personally, I'd be in favor of putting the projects in place with a penny sales tax for 5 years, and then voting in a permanent 1/8 - 1/4 cent sales tax to fund Oklahoma City Beautiful and expand the Parks Department to maintain the landscaping and plant annuals every year.

Of course, part of MAPS for Neighborhoods needs to focus on beautifying neighborhood parks as well.

Also, we need to really crack down on littering in our city. Let's spend a little money enforcing the law.

like "Up with Trees" in Tulsa has done

I almost had to laugh when I read that. Up with Trees does not plant large trees...these are the sticks that I was talking about in Tulsa. I think the large trees you are talking about are the ones in Jenks...which is a perfect example of what I am talking about. As you drive on the Creek Turnpike through Jenks, it is lined with large LARGE trees. It makes all the difference. You can tell driving through that area, that it must be the area where the upper class people live, because it just looks like that kind of an area. Other than that, the trees that are planted along the highway in Tulsa are 5 feet at best and are some of the slowest growing trees that there is. OKC and Tulsa need to look at Jenks highway tree-scaping for ideas on how to do it. The only suggestion I have for Jenks is now they need to go in around the base of all these trees and plant shrubs and flowers.

One only needs to look at the median between 50 Penn Place and Penn Square Mall to see what we're talking about here. Chesapeake sponsors this area. They planted large trees, with flower gardens around them! And they actually maintain them. Vincas and Begonias in the summer, and Pansies in the fall and winter. And, they decorate the trees with Christmas lights at Christmas time.

I also notice that Chesapeake has put the same type of "mature" landscaping on their own campus.

We need to follow their lead for other sites in the city.

If you haven't seen this public planting, check it out....just west of Belle Isle Blvd. on NW Expressway.

So are there actually any current plans for subsequent MAPS projects? I know MAPS for Kids is in effect, but there have been posts referring to MAPS III-V? Any links to these if they exist?

So are there actually any current plans for subsequent MAPS projects? I know MAPS for Kids is in effect, but there have been posts referring to MAPS III-V? Any links to these if they exist?

First, welcome to OKC Talk! We're so happy to have you here.

These are actually our dreams here, although, based on speeches by Mick Cornett, Kirk Humphreys, and Burns Hargis, there most likely will be subsequent MAPS projects following MAPS for Kids. It's important to note that even before MAPS for Kids was passed, many on this forum expressed the need for a MAPS II for schools. Thus, it's obvious that your voice is being heard here, as city leaders clearly payed attention to our cries for a MAPS II focusing on education.

Patrick, you're up late! (hahaha) I hope MAPS III will include transportation planning that will supplement local funding to make Oklahoma City's entire freeway system one of the smoothest in the nation. Nice freeways definitely give good impressions to visitors and passers-by.

Ummn... do smooth freeways mean anything? As long as they are drivable, no.

Yeah, me and Patrick used to be regulars past midnight.

Actually, yes, they do Sooner&RiceGrad. Smooth freeways lower auto maintenance costs significantly. Bumpy freeways (although driveable) accelerate the wear and tear on shocks and struts.

Ummn... do smooth freeways mean anything? As long as they are drivable, no.

Yeah, me and Patrick used to be regulars past midnight.

What happened Soonergrad? lol!

Keith told me he woke up this morning around 4:30 AM.......that's about the time I was going to bed! :) I'm just a night owl.

Anyways, keeping smooth roads are just difficult in a state where the ground shifts so much. I think we need to consider alternative ways to construct highways. Whitetopping, as was used on Hefner Parkway and the new Broadway Extension, is definitely an alternative. Hefner Parkway has been inplace for 10+ years now, and it's still smooth.
Unfortunately, each roadway will have to be taken on a case by case basis, until all of the roads are resurfaced.

Locally, I think we need to reconsider using asphalt on our streets. It just isn't as durable as concrete.

Yeah, Patrick, you were up late, lol!

Whitetopping is the standard for freeway construction, now. It will be used for the new I-40. Unfortunately, it cannot be used for resurfacing. Only reconstruction.

I'm not sure how I feel about the oil and chip seal the city recently laid on the surface of Hefner Road between Portland and Rockwell. A little rough, but it will prevent potholes. For now.

A little off subject, but I thought I read somewhere that there were plans to come off of I-35 in between Norman and Moore and build a huge loop east and west around OKC. Does anyone know what I am talking about?

A little off subject, but I thought I read somewhere that there were plans to come off of I-35 in between Norman and Moore and build a huge loop east and west around OKC. Does anyone know what I am talking about?

This would just be an extension of the KilPatrick turnpike, a master plan known as "the outer loop."

The next phase will be the SW loop extension, extending from the present turnpike/I-40 junction and looping around to meet with I-35 in between Norman and Moore. It's in the works, but it will probably be a long time before you ever see this plan put in place.

The SE loop is even further down the road, but is a possiblity in the future. Opposition from property owners have killed it for now, but as the metro continues to grow it may be reconsidered later.

Actually, nuclear2525, I do know the plans you are talking about. However, the loop mostly involves the Kilpatrick Turnpike. Plans are to extend the turnpike from I-40 where it ends now to I-35 between Moore and Norman. That section will loop in between Mustang and Will Rogers World Airport. Plans for the highway to loop through the east side of the Oklahoma City metro have been put on hold indefinitely from both a lack of growth to the east of the city and opposition from land owners.

Is there a link to where I can see this plan?

I'm not sure, but it should be on the ACOG website (Association of Central Oklahoma Governments), I haven't checked myself.

I don't believe it's on their website. It's actually been in the news in the past, plus I've heard ACOG talk about it in person. It's on their complete master plan for the Kilpatrick Turnpike. Their hopes are to eventually make the turnpike a loop that completely encircles the city. I believe I still have a copy of their 2025 plan. I'll see if I can find it over the next few weeks.

Here's a brief reference to it from the Planning Commission site:

To accommodate future traffic demand, the Kilpatrick Turnpike Extension (extending westward from Portland Avenue to County Line Road, then southward to I-40 near Sara Road) is currently under construction. Possible routes for a southwest segment of the Outer loop are being evaluated by the Association of Central Oklahoma Governments, Oklahoma Turnpike Authority, and the Oklahoma Department of Transportation as part of a Major Investment Study. The City of Oklahoma City supports locating this segment of the Outer Loop immediately west of the Will Rogers World Airport as shown on the map on page 37.

Looks like the Sierra Club is of course opposed to the Outer Loop. This site sort of explains the Outer Loop more!

http://oklahoma.sierraclub.org/sprawl/lppstion.html

Looks like the Chamber is working on it as well:

Outer Loop
Promote Environmental Impact Study (EIS) of Southwest connection between I-40 and I-35 to designate and protect this future corridor. The funds needed to do an EIS needs to be placed in the state's Eight-year Construction Program as development is threatening the future corridor path.