SIAP. nothing crazy, but still interesting to see. The blue is AA, red is white, and orange is hispanic.

http://www.flickr.com/photos/walkingsf/4982014786/

http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4111/4982014786_7f2d805288.jpg

SIAP. nothing crazy, but still interesting to see. The blue is AA, red is white, and orange is hispanic.

http://www.flickr.com/photos/walkingsf/4982014786/

http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4111/4982014786_7f2d805288.jpg

Nothing too surprising there. It's basically what you would expect to be shown if you're familiar with OKC.

OKC looks quite integrated, relatively speaking. ..

Look at other cities, like Portland (VERY VERY WHITE........) http://www.flickr.com/photos/walkingsf/4982015862/in/photostream/

OKC looks quite integrated, relatively speaking. ..

Look at other cities, like Portland (VERY VERY WHITE........) http://www.flickr.com/photos/walkingsf/4982015862/in/photostream/

HOT ROD, I know you're black, so maybe you don't realize how your post came across....but try reversing your post.....

Look at othjer cities, like Detroit (VERY VERY BLACK..........)
http://www.flickr.com/photos/walkingsf/4982034696/in/set-72157624812674967/

I think his point was to say that at least in OKC, we don't seem to divide our races into neighborhoods like some other places. Check out the Chicago map and you'll flip your lid. Obviously in OKC, tha African American population is more prominent in the NE Quad, but it's not as stark a difference as even in Portland or Detroit. In those cities, you can see LINES. It's like someone drew a line in the sand and said, You here, and You here. I'm sure there are municipal boundaries at play, but it's just crazy.

Detroit is one city that is just full of issues that never got resolved. The "white flight" that happened there was a result of change in city govt. that sort of liked the flight. And their type of government was the result of the poor treatment of the non-white population for years and years beforehand. Trouble is, the cycle never stopped. If you go to Detroit now, the population of the city is not that dense. There are abandoned homes everywhere. It's really a shame too because that's one city that has helped to influence America in soooo many ways and really has a great soul. The ovbious car influence, but music as well. But that's sort of off topic.

My point is, I don't think he was trying to make a racial statement...it's just demographics.

I agree with Hot Rod that for the most part, OKC is a mixture. It confirms what I already suspected in my area = very diverse. If anything, my area needs more dots. I'm a bit suspicious of all the dots on the property of Will Rogers World Airport though...

Pull a map of Tulsa, you should see a big difference. When I first moved to OKC from Tulsa, I could not believe my eyes, a black person in the "nice area of town". I like it diversity, so I was happy! But in Tulsa, it is much more segregated.

There are still very distinct black parts and hispanic parts of town that many whites avoid for those reasons. But it is like that everywhere. I wouldn't say Tulsa is any more segregated than OKC. Cities like Chicago, St. Louis, Memphis, etc. are though.

I didn't even take into account what HOT ROD said until it was pointed out by MikeOKC. Why? Because it wasn't and isn't that big of a deal. I see what you meant HOT ROD.

Don't know if anyone else noticed, as the original poster didn't mention it, nor did they post a link to the original site but they forgot to mention that green is representative of Asian. Also, one dot is representative of 25 persons.

Chicago and St Louis both have some amazingly diverse, well-integrated areas though. OKC, while overall well integrated, doesn't have that at the same time.

As for Tulsa, it's interesting how it's not really showing any concentration of Hispanic population east of 169..or at all anywhere, for that matter. Also interesting how the NE part of Tulsa is demographically the same as anywhere, and it's just north-central that is heavily African American. Also interesting how you can't really spot anything unique around 61st and Peoria..

As for OKC, the most interesting observation is probably that there seems to be an African American belt all the way from MWC to NW 122nd and Penn that is contiguous for the most part, and crosses Broadway around Britton.

For all those who think diversity is such a great thing....if you were with your family on an interstate, and driving through a city needing to make a travel stop and saw that one of the exits was "Martin Luther King" (pick your city), if you're white - do you not do the SMART thing and keep on going? Everybody here is pretending as if black males don't commit the overwhelming numbers of armed robberies, rapes, etc. etc. Pick your crime. EVEN THOUGH they represent a small minority of the total population. Oh yeah, I just love it when I get a chance to experience "diversity" in E. St. Louis. Makes me feel warm and cuddly.

Come on. HOT ROD made a blatant racist comment: "Look at other cities, like Portland (VERY VERY WHITE........)." Why would he say that if it wasn't meant to be a negative thing? Would I be given the same racial pass had I pointed out how "VERY, VERY BLACK" Newark is?

Everybody can be so politically correct, but how many of the white people on this board go driving around to "enjoy the diversity" around 23rd and Lottie? Now, we can even say NWX and Wilshire or 122nd and Western! The fact that all of these areas are "diverse" (lots of blacks) also means lots of police calls because of high crime. But, I'll pretend that Hot Rod's comment was race-neutral. Read his post! By its very words it was not neutral on the question. The resulting opinion on Portland's "whiteness" was only implied, but HOT ROD knew he was pointing out how sad it was that Portland is not yet enlightened to the joys of "diversity." Pretend all you want. I know - I'm a racist for pointing out racism and going on further to point out simple facts. Damn those stubborn facts.

When we lived in Virginia, my neighborhood was roughly 50/50 black and white. It was primarily professionals with many military and government workers (CIA, FBI and contractors). We backed up to a neighborhood that had beautiful new homes but they pitched their houses to poor people using balloon notes. It ended up having gorgeous McMansions filled to the gills with illegal immigrants sleeping on the floors and with whole families renting one or two rooms with the kitchen being a common area. Crime over there was bad but in our neighborhood, aside from some kids that kept breaking into cars at night (we suspected they came from the neighborhood behind us) it was orderly and safe. The black people in our neighborhood were no more likely to engage in violence towards their neighbors or family than your average middle class white family would.

In contrast, I wouldn't go into SE DC. You'd be crazy. Those people are out of their minds with violence. That ghetto mentality has driven up the crime statistics of the African American community to the point where people don't realize that so few are doing so much. It is hard to imagine and a scary part is how many young black females are so physically violent. They take pride in it.

That being said, I entered into the homes of many, many black families while working as a guardian ad litem in Virginia. Rarely, did I feel any concern about it because, frankly, the ones who don't live in those crappy neighborhoods can't be judged by the same criteria. If you will excuse the term - it is just black and white. I would see well dressed black folks on the Metro on the way to work at 6:30 in the morning, and tired, exhausted black folks clearly returning home from working a night shift. Good people.

The AA community has a horrible problem with crime, poverty and children born to single mothers with no real likelihood that the dad is going to hang around. And it has hit them disproportionately. They have a higher drop out rate, higher levels of obesity with the attendent health problems that go along wth that. The family, statistically, has broken down for a huge portion of the AA community and that leads to the crime and violence we see.

But, again, that just a subgroup of black people. That they have driven the numbers up so high is awful and it makes the statistics, overall, even more astonishing. Black on black crime is awful. But the majority of black people work, go to school, pay their taxes and try to be good citizens. In DC, not that many women marry, however, which suggests to me that the problem is spreading, not getting better. Part of that is because in the DC area, so many men are criminals that the professional women don't have many decent men to choose from - and they settle.

To respond directly to MikeOKC, I am NOT going to get out of my car in certain black neighborhoods - I'll be honest. And that is because the crime stats are so awful to the point where they are killing their own grandmothers and children. My kids have black friends and I would pitch a fit if I knew that THEY were going into some of those neighborhoods (I think their parents would, too). That is a violent, dysfunctional subgroup but most predominately black neighborhoods are just fine. I just wish the black community would work to get that "bad" group cleaned up - and that means calling them out for their ridiculous behavior and demanding they respect education, marriage and avoid criminal behavior. Trying to give a united front to the rest of the world and hide their dirty laundry has only made people think that they are all violent and dysfunctional. Because it is the gangbangers, the drive-bys and the criminal statistics that everyone sees. They don't see the hardworking black dad taking his wife, kids and parents to church every Sunday. But those folks are out there.

What color are the Native Americans? I am sure that if they added those that Oklahoma City and Tulsa would add a lot more diversity.

Penny, that was a great post and you summed up my personal thoughts quite nicely (I'm black BTW). I just got back from visiting a friend who lives just outside of DC (Along the Fairfax/Loudon County line if you know where that is) and I noticed the same thing.

I really don't see whats so wrong with what HOTROD said. Yep Portland is pretty white, Detroit is pretty black like you said. Also, San Antonio is pretty Hispanic, and Honolulu is pretty Asian. Just pointing out the facts. Chill out.

This reminds me of the many comments that came from people in the city of Seattle when we "STOLE" the Sonics from them. They were sure the black players on the team would feel very uncomfortable here in our "Lily White" redneck city.

Penny, There wasn't a thing you said that I would disagree with.

Oh yeah, I just love it when I get a chance to experience "diversity" in E. St. Louis. Makes me feel warm and cuddly.

Point taken, but I had a great experience when I recently discovered the rest of St. Louis, including some Hispanic areas like Cherokee Street, and old-fashioned black neighborhoods like Shaw and Soulard. Loooove Shaw. Virtually all of St. Louis is an extremely diverse mix of white/black and others. Granted, I'm sure there are some real tensions, especially in north and east STL.

In all honesty, a lot of the majority black neighborhoods in STL proper are nicer than most of the majority white hoods..

Thanks guys, yes - my point was OKC is very integrated; while it does have predominate areas and ghettos - it isn't segregated like other major cities.

I pointed out Portland, mostly because it was near OKC in the Flickr list and has very high concentrations of white - which does not fit the "usual" stereotype of it being an integrated city, while other cities have high concentrations of black - Detroit as was mentioned. Whereas, in OKC - you see quite a healthy mix particularly in the inner city.

Chicago is a nice city, but you definitely know where the lines are. Integrated areas around Uptown are becoming more popular, but this has more to do with wealth. Even here in Seattle, it is a very white city - which is contrary to most people thinking it is Asian/integrated.

I'd say OKC is doing something right, despite the common misperception that I definitely heard up here in Seattle during the Sonics fiasco. When I pointed out that OKC has far more African Americans (and even higher income) than Seattle and that OKC was more diverse per capita - I was scoffed until I pulled up the statistics which showed Seattle had a higher percentage of white than OKC. One thing I do notice is that Asians in OKC tend to have less income in general. It is very nice to see the Asian District on the map.


And mike, I actually am not black - I apologize if you were offended by my comments. However, maybe now you could better infer my ethnicity from the last two sentences and what countries I often travel to for business and pleasure - - . .... but that's beside the point.

Wait......you're not black? Not that it matters (except how you worded your post) but you posted a picture several months back that was in your photobucket account for "Hot Rod" and there was a link to a MySpace for "Hot Rod". It was your link to a photo and it turned out the whole album was public, so I looked around to see what else you had (I like photography). There were lots of pictures of "you" Rodney _____ talking big about Oklahoma City -- and "you" were very much a black guy. If that's just some weird coincidence, I'm sorry I was...uh...wrong.

im actually mixed, if you cared. and I dont have a photobucket account.

Holy crap Mike...i don't think i've ever seen anyone posting such racist things here before. Wow. And just so you know, statistically you should be looking at socio-economics, not race. Just beacuse someone is a certain race has ABSOLUTELY nothing to do with whether or not they are going to commit a crime. It does have EVERYTHING to do with socio-economics though. You can't tell me that a trashy white person is less likely to rob a 7-11 than a ghetto black person (and don't even try and say i'm making any statement about all black people being ghetto because that is NOT what I'm saying).

I just get tired of people trying to use race as an excuse for their woes. Just take the race box off the application and we'll all be better off.

Holy crap Mike...i don't think i've ever seen anyone posting such racist things here before. Wow. And just so you know, statistically you should be looking at socio-economics, not race. Just beacuse someone is a certain race has ABSOLUTELY nothing to do with whether or not they are going to commit a crime. It does have EVERYTHING to do with socio-economics though. You can't tell me that a trashy white person is less likely to rob a 7-11 than a ghetto black person (and don't even try and say i'm making any statement about all black people being ghetto because that is NOT what I'm saying).

I just get tired of people trying to use race as an excuse for their woes. Just take the race box off the application and we'll all be better off.

I'd have to disagree when you are talking gangs, mwcbomber. Once the gangs come in to indoctrinate the kids, the likellihood that they look to crime to solve their financial woes skyrockets. Yes, there are hispanic gangs, black gangs, asian gangs, etc., but most trashy white people are either druggies or work independently if they engage in crime. They just don't have the same problem with gangs. I'm not saying there aren't groups of white thugs but you don't see it on the same scale. I do recall the motorcycle gangs some years ago that had a lot of criminal white people, granted. A scary thing about them was that they were often not just kids.

I just get tired of people trying to use race as an excuse for their woes. Just take the race box off the application and we'll all be better off.

Agreed.

Holy crap Mike...i don't think i've ever seen anyone posting such racist things here before. Wow. And just so you know, statistically you should be looking at socio-economics, not race. Just beacuse someone is a certain race has ABSOLUTELY nothing to do with whether or not they are going to commit a crime. It does have EVERYTHING to do with socio-economics though. You can't tell me that a trashy white person is less likely to rob a 7-11 than a ghetto black person (and don't even try and say i'm making any statement about all black people being ghetto because that is NOT what I'm saying).

I just get tired of people trying to use race as an excuse for their woes. Just take the race box off the application and we'll all be better off.

Look at a crime map sometime. It is no coincidence that the vast majority of crimes are on the east and south sides of OKC, or in the low income ghettos interspersed throughout the rest of the city i.e. Classen-Ten-Penn, NW 10 & Macarthur, NWX & Lyrewood Lane, NW 122 & Penn, etc. All of these areas have higher concentration of non-whites. It is very PC to say race it is not an issue but it is.

So if I'm to believe race is an issue when it comes to crime then can I infer that crime is genetic? Would it be possible to isolate the crime gene?

Seriously, why does the color of ones skin make one more likely to be a criminal? I guess I just don't 'get it'.

So if I'm to believe race is an issue when it comes to crime then can I infer that crime is genetic? Would it be possible to isolate the crime gene?

Seriously, why does the color of ones skin make one more likely to be a criminal? I guess I just don't 'get it'.

I think the connection is cultural rather than genetic. When you have "black" neighborhoods with a ghetto mentality, the chances of young people engaging in criminal activity skyrockets. There is not to say that whites or hispanics or space aliens aren't also affected the same way if raised in that environment but you can't escape the numbers, sadly. In certain parts of the country, if you are black, odds are much higher that you are into that violent, ghetto mentality. It is an ugly fact and ignoring it for fear of being called a racist is merely resulting in more black grandmas hiding out in their homes, held hostage to violent gangbangers who rule their streets. Black on black crime is horrific. And widespread. The chances of a black man dying from murder is off the charts as compared to other races and the vast majority of the murderers are also black.

You just don't see that same fact pattern so acutely with other races - probably because so many blacks live in urban areas and also because of the dysfunctional culture in which many are raised. Due to the perception that all blacks are that way, many other people - and it is certainly not just whites (some studies have shown they have less bigotry towards blacks than hispanics or asians), don't want anything to do with them. It is a tragedy for the non-ghetto blacks to be painted with the same brush but at the same time, completely understandable and sane when it comes to dealing with people who actually have that ghetto mentality. Like I wrote, previously, the non ghetto blacks contribute to the perception by not being the first to call BS on that group. I personally believe their status in the community at large would rise astronomically if they were candid about the problem. You can say what you want about a slave mentality, talk about Jim Crow, etc., but blaming bad stereotypes and bigoted attitudes on some vestiges of slavery and Jim Crow misses the forest for the trees. For most of us, the headlines of scary black gangbangers who seem to have no respect for human life or call to duty when it comes to work and family are what shape public perception - not the fact that these folks ancestors used to be slaves. And the hard working black people are the ones victimized by this.

It is asking a lot for the black community to demand that whites be able to tell the difference when they themselves won't stand up and point it out.

Geneticists have proven there really is only one race - homo sapiens. We are all 99.6% alike genetically. If we were not of the same race, we could not interbreed, for lack of a better term. Think of it this way, we are all members of one big dysfunctional family.

We also all originated from Africa. Therefore, we all should proudly claim our heritage as African American and put this tired race issue to bed once and for all.

:irule:

I think the connection is cultural rather than genetic. When you have "black" neighborhoods with a ghetto mentality, the chances of young people engaging in criminal activity skyrockets. There is not to say that whites or hispanics or space aliens aren't also affected the same way if raised in that environment but you can't escape the numbers, sadly. In certain parts of the country, if you are black, odds are much higher that you are into that violent, ghetto mentality. It is an ugly fact and ignoring it for fear of being called a racist is merely resulting in more black grandmas hiding out in their homes, held hostage to violent gangbangers who rule their streets. Black on black crime is horrific. And widespread. The chances of a black man dying from murder is off the charts as compared to other races and the vast majority of the murderers are also black.

You just don't see that same fact pattern so acutely with other races - probably because so many blacks live in urban areas and also because of the dysfunctional culture in which many are raised. Due to the perception that all blacks are that way, many other people - and it is certainly not just whites (some studies have shown they have less bigotry towards blacks than hispanics or asians), don't want anything to do with them. It is a tragedy for the non-ghetto blacks to be painted with the same brush but at the same time, completely understandable and sane when it comes to dealing with people who actually have that ghetto mentality. Like I wrote, previously, the non ghetto blacks contribute to the perception by not being the first to call BS on that group. I personally believe their status in the community at large would rise astronomically if they were candid about the problem. You can say what you want about a slave mentality, talk about Jim Crow, etc., but blaming bad stereotypes and bigoted attitudes on some vestiges of slavery and Jim Crow misses the forest for the trees. For most of us, the headlines of scary black gangbangers who seem to have no respect for human life or call to duty when it comes to work and family are what shape public perception - not the fact that these folks ancestors used to be slaves. And the hard working black people are the ones victimized by this.

It is asking a lot for the black community to demand that whites be able to tell the difference when they themselves won't stand up and point it out.

WOW... JUST WOW. I'm speechless other than WOW.

WOW... JUST WOW. I'm speechless other than WOW.

Why? because someone spoke candidly? I was completely respectful. And I'm no bigot.

Look at othjer cities, like Detroit
http://www.flickr.com/photos/walkingsf/4982034696/in/set-72157624812674967/

Wow...8 Mile Road.

A bigot (in modern usage) is a prejudiced person who is intolerant of any opinions differing from their own ...
--from Wikipedia--so as not run afoul of anyone whose entire existence revolves around the internet and the qwerty keyboard...

Obviously in OKC, tha African American population is more prominent in the NE Quad, but it's not as stark a difference as even in Portland or Detroit. In those cities, you can see LINES. It's like someone drew a line in the sand and said, You here, and You here. I'm sure there are municipal boundaries at play, but it's just crazy.

How does I-235 not count? Of particular note, its construction back in the Urban Renewal era practically ripped through a culturally significant black neighborhood (Deep Deuce). It's now being developed into a bland neighborhood of yuppie condos.

Imagine this..a testy thread over "Race and Ethnicity map in OKC."

...

"You moron, we have good race relations in OKC, dammitt!!" LOL

Imagine this..a testy thread over "Race and Ethnicity map in OKC."

...

"You moron, we have good race relations in OKC, dammitt!!" LOL

Why can't we just all get along. LOL

Why? because someone spoke candidly? I was completely respectful. And I'm no bigot.

I don't think anyone has a problem with people who speak candidly, but I do have a problem with someone that blames the "good" blacks for not doing more to stop the "bad" blacks. This is called guilt-by-association and you essentially blame all blacks (not just the ones that may be criminals or deviants) for the problem. This is the essence of stereotyping. Maybe you should just treat every person with respect and give them a fair shake instead of blaming a race. It is worse that people of other races (and I would guess that you are white) get to wash their hands of the problem (BTW, this is called white privilege) because, according to your logic, how are white people supposed to know the difference between good and bad blacks?

Your logic is disgusting.

Imagine this..a testy thread over "Race and Ethnicity map in OKC."

...

"You moron, we have good race relations in OKC, dammitt!!" LOL
haha..i wasnt trying to start an argument. I just thought it was interesting information, that if anything should encourage us to try and remove the invisible boundaries we see in the map. Not encourage us to start fighting.

BG and Penny - I think you made my arguement for me, even though you think you are actually making a race arguement. What you said IS SOCIOECONOMICS...NOT RACE. If you base crime statistics off of neighborhoods, then you're basing it off of socioeconomics. The racial makeup of that neighborhood has 0%, zero, nadda, zilch, to do with the crime rate.

Hell if I based my opinion of the crime rate in Edmond off of how many times I saw Lynda Chu on TV, I'd think it was an inner-city thugfest.

Just because a person is of one race, does not predispose them to a life of, or life lacking, crime. There's no nature vs. nuture arguement. It's just as possisble for a white person to end up in a life of crime as a black person. What I will agree with is that statistically, you might see higher numbers of a particular group, but that can be traced back to their economic condition and the social means to that end.

With your arguement, I should be worried that my black neighbors are going to rob me one day simply because they are black and that's about the most idiotic thing I've ever heard. This isn't the Jim Crowe era, so leave your racist crap in your own head.

God Bless you--Matthew Harrison Brady!...

With your arguement, I should be worried that my black neighbors are going to rob me one day simply because they are black and that's about the most idiotic thing I've ever heard. This isn't the Jim Crowe era, so leave your racist crap in your own head.

Clearly, you didn't even read what I wrote. Perhaps that is one of the reasons so many people are so quick to label others as racist - lack of thinking or reading comprehension. I ask you to be fair and go back and read my posts (and I've posted several on this thread) and then come back and defend your outrageous statement. If you are like most cowards, you will toss out that ugly comment and then slink away rather than admit you were accusing others unjustly.

I don't think anyone has a problem with people who speak candidly, but I do have a problem with someone that blames the "good" blacks for not doing more to stop the "bad" blacks. This is called guilt-by-association and you essentially blame all blacks (not just the ones that may be criminals or deviants) for the problem. This is the essence of stereotyping. Maybe you should just treat every person with respect and give them a fair shake instead of blaming a race. It is worse that people of other races (and I would guess that you are white) get to wash their hands of the problem (BTW, this is called white privilege) because, according to your logic, how are white people supposed to know the difference between good and bad blacks?

Your logic is disgusting.

Look, if the black folks aren't willing to differentiate between the ones who are criminals and the ones who aren't, they shouldn't expect anyone else to, either. Why are you holding whites to a higher standard? Usually it is because people like you think black folks are just children who aren't capable of using their brains and also think "they" are all alike. Give me a break. My logic isn't disgusting but your racism is, however. I don't believe any race should be excused from being responsible but you apparently do.

I don't think anyone has a problem with people who speak candidly, but I do have a problem with someone that blames the "good" blacks for not doing more to stop the "bad" blacks. This is called guilt-by-association and you essentially blame all blacks (not just the ones that may be criminals or deviants) for the problem. This is the essence of stereotyping. Maybe you should just treat every person with respect and give them a fair shake instead of blaming a race. It is worse that people of other races (and I would guess that you are white) get to wash their hands of the problem (BTW, this is called white privilege) because, according to your logic, how are white people supposed to know the difference between good and bad blacks?

Your logic is disgusting.

And please define "the problem." If you mean the crime, poverty, etc., I never blamed the - as you call it - "good" blacks. That is just ridiculous but so many people are so quick to squeal racism as soon as the subject is raised that they don't even pay attention to what it is said - and that is exactly why we can't have an intelligent, candid discussion about the subject in this country. People like YOU are the problem - you make discussion next to impossible in your moralizing and sermonizing.

What I said was that they were contributing to the problem of perception by not calling out those dysfunctional folks. I can't imagine having a problem with that. And I hope you can see the difference because it is a fundamental one. As for the dysfunctional group - there is absolutely no excuse for it. Poverty is the cause but not the excuse.

As for Tulsa, it's interesting how it's not really showing any concentration of Hispanic population east of 169..or at all anywhere, for that matter.

The data points for these maps are based on 2000 census. At that time, East Tulsa's major populations were mostly white and asian. The hispanic community didn't really establish there until closer to the mid-2000's.

The data points for these maps are based on 2000 census. At that time, East Tulsa's major populations were mostly white and asian. The hispanic community didn't really establish there until closer to the mid-2000's.

The Asian population there has also seen a lot of growth, further south and east of the heavily Hispanic neighborhoods. There is also a concentration of Hispanics that live in and around the Kendall-Whittier neighborhood east of downtown.

And please define "the problem."

I'll tell you what the problem is (and if you ever picked up a copy of the black chronicle, you know the "good" black ppl, you'd already know the answer). Its education. In Oklahoma the money allotted to a school is based mainly off of property tax. That in itself sets impoverish areas apart from affluent areas. I can go to edmond and get some of the best public education in america, but if I go to the East Side I'm lookin at getting some of the worst education in america. How is that fair? Its not! Race isn't the issue. Or maybe it is? As long as the privileged continue this moniker that its the black race that should take care of itself when the majority of the state is white therefore making it impossible for blacks to change anything without support of white ppl! Help ourselves! pssh! We have been trying to, but nobody wants to listen!!!

I'll tell you what the problem is (and if you ever picked up a copy of the black chronicle, you know the "good" black ppl, you'd already know the answer). Its education. In Oklahoma the money allotted to a school is based mainly off of property tax. That in itself sets impoverish areas apart from affluent areas. I can go to edmond and get some of the best public education in america, but if I go to the East Side I'm lookin at getting some of the worst education in america. How is that fair? Its not! Race isn't the issue. Or maybe it is? As long as the privileged continue this moniker that its the black race that should take care of itself when the majority of the state is white therefore making it impossible for blacks to change anything without support of white ppl! Help ourselves! pssh! We have been trying to, but nobody wants to listen!!!

No, those schools on the NE side benefit from Title 1 money. In OKC, they benefit from MAPS for Kids money as well. Millwood has one of the highest $/student in the state.

The issue there is fairly complex. It's cultural--parents have low academic expectations or just do not care. It's familial--lots of single-parent households as well as kids who have come up through their respective youths in foster care or with grandparents. And administratively, you have a certain schoolboard member, and I'll go ahead and name names--Thelma Parks--who treatedthe NE side like her fiefdom. She ushered in unaccountable and completely useless administrators (such as the one who recently allegedly had her child assault the principal after school) and protected such idiots from being fired. They were instead promoted to positions where they could do less damage. She finally was defeated by Ruth Veales this February. We'll see if that helps, but the change will be slow. Getting rid of the slugs in OKCPS will take time.

And please define "the problem." If you mean the crime, poverty, etc., I never blamed the - as you call it - "good" blacks. That is just ridiculous but so many people are so quick to squeal racism as soon as the subject is raised that they don't even pay attention to what it is said - and that is exactly why we can't have an intelligent, candid discussion about the subject in this country. People like YOU are the problem - you make discussion next to impossible in your moralizing and sermonizing.

What I said was that they were contributing to the problem of perception by not calling out those dysfunctional folks. I can't imagine having a problem with that. And I hope you can see the difference because it is a fundamental one. As for the dysfunctional group - there is absolutely no excuse for it. Poverty is the cause but not the excuse.

Again, you are advocating racial stereotyping and blaming all blacks instead of perpetrators of violence, crime, etc... According to your "logic," we should all go ask our black friends to start telling us all the bad stuff about the black people they know. Again, your logic is twisted and, yes, YOU ARE BEING RACIST.
I'd like to apologize to everyone for provoking the village idiot.

I'll tell you what the problem is (and if you ever picked up a copy of the black chronicle, you know the "good" black ppl, you'd already know the answer). Its education. In Oklahoma the money allotted to a school is based mainly off of property tax. That in itself sets impoverish areas apart from affluent areas. I can go to edmond and get some of the best public education in america, but if I go to the East Side I'm lookin at getting some of the worst education in america. How is that fair? Its not! Race isn't the issue. Or maybe it is? As long as the privileged continue this moniker that its the black race that should take care of itself when the majority of the state is white therefore making it impossible for blacks to change anything without support of white ppl! Help ourselves! pssh! We have been trying to, but nobody wants to listen!!!

What exactly is it you think the black folks need white folks help to change?

DC schools spend a fotunre on its schools and the results are utterly dismal. It isn't directly about money, it is about parental involvement. Kids whose parents are educated and put a value on it - no matter the race - tend to do well. And most of those parents will pay good money to live in a decent neighborhood. Same thing happens when the parents don't encoruage education - the kids take their cue from mom and dad.

I had the pleasure of living in the DC area that has a very strong African American middle class. The ghetto mentality is ridiculous and it has nothing to do with race and everything to do with worthless parents. And ask any middle class black family and they will tell you the same thing. If the strong black middle class can't get the black ghetto folk to wake up, it is asking a lot to expect the white middle class to somehow fix the problem.

As long as black people keep expecting their cultural problems to be the responsibility of white people, nothing whill change for them. They have plenty of fantastic black role models and are far more likely to listen to them than to white folks. A black man who abandons his children knows he is doing wrong. A black woman who has 7 - 8 kids and leaves them alone to go out and smoke crack knows she is doing wrong. A black man who shoots his neighbor knows he is doing wrong. A black man who doesn't even try to work knows he is doing wrong. It is a CULTURAL problem. Pointing out the obvious - work hard, get an education, support your children and don't have more than you can afford, honor your marriage are not secrets. Any race who ignores that does so at its peril. If you look at the financial bottom line of a married black couple with two kids, it looks pretty darn similar to a white married couple with two kids.

Again, you are advocating racial stereotyping and blaming all blacks instead of perpetrators of violence, crime, etc... According to your "logic," we should all go ask our black friends to start telling us all the bad stuff about the black people they know. Again, your logic is twisted and, yes, YOU ARE BEING RACIST.
I'd like to apologize to everyone for provoking the village idiot.

I honestly can't believe you don't read any better than that. I certainly never blamed anyone for ghetto behavior except the perpetrators.

Let me ask you - why is it okay to complain about white prejudice and stereotyping when people speak in ignorance, when setting the record straight would educate people who don't know any better? Or are white people just supposed to be smarter, better people and understand all the nuances? What is so wrong with black people taking the time to point out that, yes, they have problems but the vast majority of black people do right? Why is that so hard? What are they playing games and then blaming white people for not "just knowing?" You are just wanting to keep black people in the victim, passive role. I have too much respect for my black friends, including former bosses, to treat them like children. I find that offensive. They are adults and should act like it/be treated that way. It won't kill them to take the time to try to reach out. Some people would rather just pout instead of actually try to understand each other.

You are utterly ridiculous and there is no point in responding anymore. My last point that I want to make is that we are all in this together. The "ghetto" mentality that you reference is no difference than the "redneck" mentality in failing rural schools. All races have their problems, but I've never had a black parent or student ask me (a white teacher) to be treated differently EVER. Quit stereotyping. Your clearly live in a bubble and know very little about how other people live. I won't argue with you anymore.

You are utterly ridiculous and there is no point in responding anymore. My last point that I want to make is that we are all in this together. The "ghetto" mentality that you reference is no difference than the "redneck" mentality in failing rural schools. All races have their problems, but I've never had a black parent or student ask me (a white teacher) to be treated differently EVER. Quit stereotyping. Your clearly live in a bubble and know very little about how other people live. I won't argue with you anymore.

I have often compared the two - redneck and ghetto. We agree on that. Nothing I have written would suggest anything different. You are just refusing to grasp what I am saying because you are apparently completely eaten up on this subject. And I didn't even get into whether someone wanted to be treated differently. That wasn't even discussed in this thread. As I said, you are completely eaten up on this. If you didn't have your mind so closed, you'd realize that I am saying exactly the opposite of what you keep insisting. And as for not knowing how other people live, I strongly suggest that you haven't had nearly the experience that I've had on this front. And I respectfully suggest that you haven't had much opportunity to discuss this rationally with middle class black folks. I have and am confident that a very large portion of them feel exactly the way I do about this. In fact, I take my cue from what they have told me.

You are utterly ridiculous and there is no point in responding anymore. My last point that I want to make is that we are all in this together. The "ghetto" mentality that you reference is no difference than the "redneck" mentality in failing rural schools. All races have their problems, but I've never had a black parent or student ask me (a white teacher) to be treated differently EVER. Quit stereotyping. Your clearly live in a bubble and know very little about how other people live. I won't argue with you anymore.

And you accuse Penny of, "living in a bubble?" Do you read the newspaper? Do you watch the news? Have you looked at the crime statistics? You can scream about socioeconomics all you want, but I've looked at the "Color of Crime" and it isn't a stereotype. You see anybody telling the truth in a candid way as a "racist." I think a lot of us are just fed up and don't care about the PC anger and cries of racism from your ilk. It just doesn't work any longer. The facts are not with you - they are with those who candidly state that the problem of crime among young black males is simply out-of-control. Period. Do white people commit crimes? Of course! Do blacks commit wayyy more rapes, robberies, burglaries, muggings, on and on - than white people? YES! (Even though there are way fewer of them.) Why? I don't have the answers, but I clearly see the problem. Poor whites in North Dakota and Nebraska don't rape, rob and terrorize neighborhoods. Do they Kilgore? I would assume because it's not a part of their culture to not report crimes among those "of your own kind" so to not be labeled a "snitch" (Or whatever ghetto language they have for it today.) It's also not an anomaly either. Even with the increase in the educated black middle class (you know the ones "acting white", as they say) the thug gangbanger culture is mainstream among young blacks. Do you really dispute that? And because of that, it's a handed down culture of crime and violence. It's not just Oklahoma, Kilgore; in fact, it's not even just America.

Whatever the cause, whatever the reasons, whatever excuses --- the color of crime is overwhelmingly black - and increasingly brown. The percentage of "white trash" committing crimes is nowhere even remotely close to blacks.

You called Penny's logic "disgusting." I call it, "Sad but true." There's just not a lot to dispute when it comes to arguing the facts of crime in America and I'm sick of nobody being allowed to talk about it.

Call me a racist if you must, but never call me fearless to speak the truth.

And you accuse Penny of, "living in a bubble?" Do you read the newspaper? Do you watch the news? Have you looked at the crime statistics? You can scream about socioeconomics all you want, but I've looked at the "Color of Crime" and it isn't a stereotype. You see anybody telling the truth in a candid way as a "racist." I think a lot of us are just fed up and don't care about the PC anger and cries of racism from your ilk. It just doesn't work any longer. The facts are not with you - they are with those who candidly state that the problem of crime among young black males is simply out-of-control. Period. Do white people commit crimes? Of course! Do blacks commit wayyy more rapes, robberies, burglaries, muggings, on and on - than white people? YES! (Even though there are way fewer of them.) Why? I don't have the answers, but I clearly see the problem. Poor whites in North Dakota and Nebraska don't rape, rob and terrorize neighborhoods. Do they Kilgore? I would assume because it's not a part of their culture to not report crimes among those "of your own kind" so to not be labeled a "snitch" (Or whatever ghetto language they have for it today.) It's also not an anomaly either. Even with the increase in the educated black middle class (you know the ones "acting white", as they say) the thug gangbanger culture is mainstream among young blacks. Do you really dispute that? And because of that, it's a handed down culture of crime and violence. It's not just Oklahoma, Kilgore; in fact, it's not even just America.

Whatever the cause, whatever the reasons, whatever excuses --- the color of crime is overwhelmingly black - and increasingly brown. The percentage of "white trash" committing crimes is nowhere even remotely close to blacks.

You called Penny's logic "disgusting." I call it, "Sad but true." There's just not a lot to dispute when it comes to arguing the facts of crime in America and I'm sick of nobody being allowed to talk about it.

Call me a racist if you must, but never call me fearless to speak the truth.

I didn't see any facts to support your case and I think you'd be disappointed to learn about the number of crimes committed by whites. Here's some stats from Wikipedia although not the gospel it can give you a clearer picture about race and crime in the U.S.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Race_and_crime_in_the_United_States

I stand by that there is a subculture - SUB culture - in the African American community that acts well outside the scope of numbers expectation on crime and irresponsible behavior. We all know this is true and if we insist it isn't, it is because we are kidding ourselves or trying to sell something. I am not saying it is just black people committing crime and behaving irresponsibly regarding their families, heaven forbid. We all know better than that. My point, that has been utterly twisted by people who knee jerk - is that many white people fear black people because they only hear about the ghetto blacks. The point raised that drove many around the bend because they think any criticism of African Americans = bigotry (how utterly ridiculous), is that middle class blacks could go a long way to improving race relations if they would openly call out that behavior and distance themselves. Right now, they are letting ghetto culture be the symbol of Black America. Middle class black people have far more in common with their white middle class fellow citizens than they do those ghetto thugs.

There is a certain mentality that apparently believes black people shouldn't have to do anything to prove themselves and that white people owe it to them to give every black person respect and the benefit of the doubt. And that attitude is not helping. It is also stupid and shortsighted. Pride will only get you so far and most people I know want the world to be a better place for their children. Contrary to what some would have you believe (many white people who don't have to deal with the prejudice, I might add and can afford to be stubborn since it doesn't cost them or their children anything) this is not about some debt owed. It is about understanding each other, building good lives and working together. Sticking out your lip and saying I don't have to tell you anything is for children. The African American community can only benefit if the rest of the world understands that they are hard working, respect education, avoid violence. It may not be "fair" but it is just dealing with the reality. And if they want to be angry at a group, take it out on the ghetto thugs that are making good people look bad. And if white people should just "get" it, perhaps so. But many don't and being stubborn and prideful because it is beneath someone to have to point out the differences is a fairly low burden to have to cross to get a better life for your kids.

Rigid, intractable liberal dogma called into question...refreshing...:tiphat:

Penny - I did read all of your posts before I posted my last comment. I still disagree with you. At least in this last post you finally gave me a reason to think your just hard headed and not racist. I agree that it's stupid that anytime a criticism comes up, people automatically throw the racist word out there. But what you were saying before, it's borderline. And how dare you call me a coward. If you've paid the least bit of attention on this site, you wouldn't say that. I find your posts to be extremely narrow in vision on this partiular topic and would hope that rather than continue to spout the kind of flaming crap you have been, we can just move on.

As was pointed out, Education is the differentiator. But beyond that, it's parental involvement. If you don't have parents that support you and your education, chances are you aren't going to find it important and will stray. No matter how much money is thrown at an educational system, you HAVE to have QUALITY parental involvement.

Oddly...Penny makes good sense to me. And, I think we have some things in common...life experience and longevity. They used to have a name for this...but--what that is--slips my mind at the moment...

Old?

:poke:

Old?

:poke:

No...:fighting2

Wait......you're not black? Not that it matters (except how you worded your post) but you posted a picture several months back that was in your photobucket account for "Hot Rod" and there was a link to a MySpace for "Hot Rod". It was your link to a photo and it turned out the whole album was public, so I looked around to see what else you had (I like photography). There were lots of pictures of "you" Rodney _____ talking big about Oklahoma City -- and "you" were very much a black guy. If that's just some weird coincidence, I'm sorry I was...uh...wrong.

This comes off as somewhat creepy, and like maybe you need another hobby, or maybe pick up a book.

Penny - I did read all of your posts before I posted my last comment. I still disagree with you. At least in this last post you finally gave me a reason to think your just hard headed and not racist. I agree that it's stupid that anytime a criticism comes up, people automatically throw the racist word out there. But what you were saying before, it's borderline. And how dare you call me a coward. If you've paid the least bit of attention on this site, you wouldn't say that. I find your posts to be extremely narrow in vision on this partiular topic and would hope that rather than continue to spout the kind of flaming crap you have been, we can just move on.

As was pointed out, Education is the differentiator. But beyond that, it's parental involvement. If you don't have parents that support you and your education, chances are you aren't going to find it important and will stray. No matter how much money is thrown at an educational system, you HAVE to have QUALITY parental involvement.

It wasn't borderline, whatsover. Go back and read the posts, again. Closely. I made it clear that I felt that a dysfunctional minority was being held up as what black people are like to the unfairness of most black people. I was suprised to see you go off the way you did because you usually at least think before you type. I would like to know what I wrote, in context, that could possibly lead you to write what you did:

With your arguement, I should be worried that my black neighbors are going to rob me one day simply because they are black and that's about the most idiotic thing I've ever heard. This isn't the Jim Crowe era, so leave your racist crap in your own head.

If what I said was even just "borderline," how could you accuse me of something so hateful? I really would like to know what it was I wrote that would cause you to claim I was saying I thought your black neighbors were going to rob you? Did you miss the part that I lived in an integrated neighborhood and I had no concerns that my black neighbors would be violent? Did you miss the part about how I went to black folks' homes and wasn't worried about it? All that was said before I "clarified" for you. It is ridiculous that someone could write what I wrote about hard working black people, good black people, black people who are unjustly lumped in with ghetto thugs and have someone like you turn around and call me a racist. That is exactly what you did. There is absolutely no way you could have called me a racist if you actually read what I wrote.

What does someone have to do or say to "prove" to you that they aren't racist? It is people like you who have made the word meaningless. I could understand if I said black people were stupid or that they were criminals because of their race or things of that nature. What has it come to that someone is called a racist when they write what I wrote?

Black people are doing the best they can to try to deal with bigotry. Slap happy white boys are out there drumming up resentment by "defending them" so they can feel morally superior. How dare you call me a racist? How dare you minimize real bigotry that way? As I already said, I have had many conversations with middle class black families. How dare you accuse me a racist when I am merely sharing what those good people tell me is going on? How does a white boy like you become so arrogant that they dare to point fingers like that? Again, what did I write that would cause you to call me a racist who believes your black neighbors are going to rob you?