Old Navy mass expansion [Archive]

Decious

03-04-2005, 04:31 PM

Those three bring in basically the same type of demographic -- exactly the kind of demographic (no offense intended) that needs to stay far, far away from Bricktown.

Ok, so exactly how far away is far enough? If you go too far away from the center of the city doesn't that land you in the suburbs? And from what I can tell from my past experiences we're not really welcome there either. Actually, I guess I could stop halfway, you know like on the fringes, but then I might shop at Crossroads, which according to some is full of "gang bangers." Now that I think about it, some people might think that I'm a gang banger becuase I have braids and am black. It's also strange that when I'm in Vegas and go to the Bellagio and peruse and "shop" in the Gucci store everyone is extremely courteous and attentive. I guess because they're used to seeing me and getting my assistance in the growth of their commissions. We always talk and they know that I'm a recording artist so I guess they expect me to have money. I just hope that when I'm in Bricktown I don't scare anyone away becuase of my style of dress. I don't really fit in down there but I like it nonetheless....Weird that I never have to think about these kinds of things in LA. Even on the North Side and in the inland empire they seem to be used to 24 year old black men with money(non drug money) who are good people.

Nevertheless, I'm flying in to OKC in the morning to go to the Storm Spotting Workshop at Rose State. After the afternoon session I'll head downtown. Even though I have been known to shop at Old Navy on occasion and when I was poor I shopped at Dollar General I'm going to brave it. I mean, what could be so threatening down there that I "NEED" to stay far, far, far, far away. I trust God for my safe passage and I'm hoping that the elitist monster that lives in the canal doesn't swallow me whole. Of course I'll probably make it out alive since I run fast(I mentioned I'm a black man) and of course I can shoot him with my gun(I mentioned I'm a young black man). You know what!?? He probably won't mess with me at all because he'll know I'm a gang banger after he sees my stocking cap and diamond bracelet.

Whew!!! That post was kinda funny. You guys never mean any offense when you speak of the lesser people. i.e. minorities, lower middle class, lower class, GED carrying, homeless, the less fortunate. Since none of you people who say these things are racist or humanistically and benevolently dead inside, I always just assume you are joking so HA HA HA, what a laugh!! I thought maybe I'd type a funny post too. Just so I wouldn't be left out and could be part of the gang.......Not a real gang like the ones in Spencer or Wyatt Erps or Jesse James'. Just friends. We are all friends because we do all love each other. Right?

Well, it doesn't matter. I grew up in Lawton, went to OU for a couple of years and love OKC. I'm hoping that the Northeast side in some way can benefit from the boom going on downtown. If they don't that's ok. There are many good plans in the works for community development in this area of our city but of course funding is an issue. Backing via banks and SBA loans are hard to come by for most of these people. But good things are on the way. I'm doing my best to contribute some seed money and we've received some good matching offers from reputable sources both commercial and personal. I'll keep you guys posted with any more good news coming out of this area.

Good day and God Bless.

Midtowner

03-04-2005, 04:50 PM

Alright Decious.. You seem to take offense to people hoping that a certain development caters to more upscale needs? Not being from OKC, I can understand how you may not know exactly what is being discussed here.

We are talking about a unique part of Oklahoma City, just outside of downtown -- within easy walking distance of most hotels. It has become one of our biggest draws for convention-goers and tourists.

The area called "Bricktown" is home to a wide variety of unique and excellent upscale restaurants. There's a riverwalk going through the middle of it, a ball park, a Bass Pro Shops, and an "upscale" theatre. It's a place that has a certain "flavor". It's a place where it's generally understood that in a given night, if you're paying for two, you'll drop between $50-$100 minimum. For that reason, certain demographics aren't found there -- we're talking income, not race.

You don't see Dollar General on 5th Avenue.

You don't see Old Navy on the Champs Elysée.

All I'm advocating is that we don't see that kind of "retail trash" as another poster referred to it in one of the few "nice" places that there are in this town.

As far as your classist arguments, I find them to be well outside the scope of the thread. Feel free to start a new one or discuss it with me via PM.

HOT ROD

03-04-2005, 04:58 PM

Karried

03-04-2005, 05:01 PM

When referring to demographics, it isn't a criticism of any particular race -

demographics as defined by Webster - the statistical characteristics of human populations (as age or income) used especially to identify markets... (doesn't mention color of skin. )

I don't think that is what is implied in any of these posts. Oklahoma is known to be on the lesser end of the affluent scale. Our wages here contribute to that. No one has said anything about not wanting any particular race in Bricktown. That's ridiculous.

I don't percieve Old Navy as bargain basement either, have you priced their clothes lately?

Now something like Walmart, that I would hate to see in Bricktown.

Midtowner

03-04-2005, 05:06 PM

I think Old Navy would be good for the new Triangle district/OKC Towne Centre, especially the upscale urban boutique version.

I too hope that someday Oklahomans can embrace diversity without labeling people (as many of you on this forum have done with the Crossroads "gang-banger" labels). Just because people chose to dress hip-hop fashion does not make them a gang-banger.

I for one am an executive at The Boeing Company (and probably make more than anyone on this forum) but have been known to dress down on occasion. Does that make me a gang-banger?

Once Oklahomans recognize that diversity is a good thing then maybe the old stigma that people nationwide have about the state will finally be lifted. I would think Christians (doesnt Oklahoma always profess to be a Christian moral state?) for one would be the first to set a positive example with regard to treating mankind with respect and joy.

Then again, so often we sit on our high horse and point the finger then go to church and think things are ok, but often it takes an humble person to admit his or her mistakes and take steps to improve on them.

Oh, by the way, in case you were wondering, Im not black but mixed up race with a bunch of stuff, if that mattered (which I figured it did given the post). People like me tend to do fine here in Seattle so thats why I live here and not in OKC where your race seems to matter too much.

Take care.

Whoa-ho buddy..

Where in this thread was there a racist comment made? There was definitely an accusation based on a misunderstanding that a racist comment was made, but to my knowledge there was not even a comment referring to race made.

Diversity is fine, but you can clearly see that some malls cater to one demographic, and some to others. It's not complicated in the least. It's the way the world works. It was suggested that Bricktown cater to the same demographic. For the record, I was discussing economic demographic. Yes, there will be diversity -- plenty of lower-income people frequent Bricktown, but if you want to go to Wal-Mart or Old Navy, go over to Belle Isle or wherever it is.

The space in and around Bricktown is a limited commodity. My hope is just that it is put to the best use possible to give outsiders the best possible impression of our city.

Let me ask you a question...

If you brought a visitor to Oklahoma City, and wanted to impress them where woudl you take them, and why? -- and no, your momma's house doesn't count :D

kielaaron

03-04-2005, 05:09 PM

I've yet to understand why we're speaking of Old Navy with such pathetic connotations. I mean, I hate the place because I work there, but before I did I thought it was great. Everyone tries to be catty and act like they don't shop there, like it's a Wal-Mart or something... I've seen plenty of who's-who come through my cashwrap like it was no big deal, and when I was in Chicago, the flagship store was freakin packed both times I went in. Hell, even at the Galleria the Gap trifecta is bulging with people.

So I think all of this "lalala Old Navy is an embarrassment" is a bunch of smoke. Old Navy is an everyman American fashion destination, and people are going to flock to one in a great location just like I do to Urban Outfitters in a remote location. Everyone knows that the clothes you see at the Gap are the same cheap crap you see at Old Navy. It's all made in the same place, and designed by very similar groups of people.

And I'm absolutely sure that not a single woman will shop at the new Gap Inc. concept when they start opening in a couple of years... oh no, women will keep paying Chico's and J.Jill prices for career attire... no one likes a trendy look at a bargain price.

I think Decious kinda hit it straight on... we're all more elitist than we realize, and that's what will keep great things from happening for OKC. I doubt anyone read an article in the Dec 26 Oklahoman that discussed OKC's disadvantage in benefitting from the newly-termed "creative class" of young professionals that bring in a lot of talent to urban areas, and while they're working there, they throw down loads of cash into the economy as consumers buying the high-end items on the market.

The creative class are relentless in crafting classic lifestyles and giving back to their communities, and OKC is about to miss out on a lot of them due to the legislation recently passed that prohibits homosexual marriage. The creative class is generally well-educated and see no reason for marriage but see laws like Oklahoma's 711 as a warning to stay out of a community void of tolerance. I consider myself to be a member of the creative class, and would love to stay in OKC, but note daily the discrimination [not necessarily against gays] of those deemed out of the mainstream. It's generally disappointing. I, for instance, would love to join AEP, but just stay away because I'm afraid that my partner and I would be turned away, regardless of our professional aspirations. [I don't state that as being true, it's just a fear for myself] I've always believed that staying out of the way keeps me safe. When groups are compassionate and honest I'm happy to prove to them that I can provide significant contributions beyond their expectations. Homosexuals on TV aren't in any way the person I am, but no one would know this because it's easier to close a door than hold one open.

I don't mention any of the above to start a debate on homosexuality, but rather as a statement that we must be willing to diversify our sights in order to include more individuals than we already are. I truly hope that each of you can see the underlying point here and, if you choose to, respond as rational human beings.

Decious

03-04-2005, 05:14 PM

Midtowner

03-04-2005, 05:53 PM

kielaaron,

You're extrapolating things that weren't said from things that were. Either you have an agenda, or you lack reading comprehension skills.

I have no problem calling myself an elitist. I respect those that work hard for what they get, I look down on those that look to others to provide for them.

As for how this relates to Old Navy being in Bricktown, I'll say it again, I'd rather we put unique things in our unique space. I even complained when they started to build an IHOP down there. That still rankles me to some degree.

I'm looking forward to OKC one day having a bona fide tourist attraction in Bricktown. I don't want low-end stores coming in to screw it up.

My guess though is that a place like Old Navy wouldn't opt for Bricktown anyhow. It's not close to its demographic (and actually, I've never shopped there) and it carries a FAR higher price tag where rent is concerned.

As far as "creative class" types, I'd think they'd find Bricktown or even moreso, the Paseo to be delightful.

I really had two objections to this:

1. The Old Navy store specifically would not draw the right demographic for Bricktown. It would be bad for Bricktown as well as the Old Navy store.

2. The Gap Inc's upscale store OR Old Navy are both chains, and I personally don't want to see chains in a unique place. If we do have chains, I want them to be unique to Oklahoma or Oklahoma City.

As far as SQ 711, I thought it was dumb and will hopefully be ruled unconstitutional someday.

Midtowner

03-04-2005, 05:59 PM

No offense taken at all. I am neither upset, angry or any of the like. I appreciate and support upscale retailers and am excited about the furtherance of Bricktowns aura.

However, my classist comments or better termed (observations) are legitimate. Someones disapproval of a particular vendor is all a matter of opinion and whether or not it serves and ideal well is opinion even more so.

The statements I responded to were speaking to the fear of "who" said establishments would attract. My statements are not a result of my emotions. They are a result of my correct interpretation of the existential people who make up this "demographic" that you referred to. In other words, that demographic does not "NEED" to stay away, you simply want them to stay away. This of course does not offend me but anyone who fits into this "misfit" statistic would be discouraged. So, just in case any of them have access to the internet and can see this, they need to know that there are wanted and accepted....even in Bricktown.

Frankly, I'm fine with that. I'm sure this "misfit" statistic (that I didn't know existed) wouldn't mind either.

Bricktown as it is caters to people with GED's, it caters to black folks, white folks, people of all shapes, sizes and colors.

However, when one goes to Bricktown, I want it to be a generally accepted fact -- that your evening in Bricktown will be a nice experience. It will be a place where you will also generally drop a significant amount of money. Businesses in Bricktown do charge a "premium" simply because of where they are. To me, this is great, and it will continue, just as it does in just about any 'touristy' district in the United States.

When I want froo-froo beer, I go to the liquor store, if I want Bud Light, I'll go to Conoco, comprende?

kielaaron

03-04-2005, 06:06 PM

I agree with you in entirety. I suppose we're going to need an official name for some new districts to the north and to the east of Bricktown, and "the triangle" just isn't going to work. Honestly... it just sounds gay. I wouldn't want to say that I lived in the "triangle" district because it would just make people giggle. So that's that. I think something a little more classy and catchy could be coined.

There will have to be room made for the chain stores outside of Bricktown, and I admit that I should have taken a more specific approach to where they'll go. The chains should not be welcomed in Bricktown, but down the road a bit, some stores will be required to necessitate the residential development, especially dependent on what commerce shows up in "the triangle."

And I say this lightheartedly: just because I'm gay doesn't mean I surround myself with other gays.... like a lot of the other gays do. Probably 90% of the friends that my partner and I have are straight, because they lead a life more similar to ours. I keep my distance from the gay community because I have witnessed too many times the typification of a stereotype that I abhor.

I thank you, Midtowner, for your polite response. :)

Decious

03-04-2005, 06:29 PM

Midtowner

03-04-2005, 07:16 PM

Obviously, I comprende. I don't want to see a Wal-Mart Super Center in Bricktown or by my house in LB or by my apartment in Moore(although there is one on 19th and I-35). I'm looking forward to the development of unique and non-big box developments in Bricktown and I'm especially looking forward to the proposed Triangle Development. However, I am not opposed to particular demographics(people) frequenting Bricktown for any reason. No demographic need stay far, far away. Obviously this is all very concrete and easy to grasp. Disliking the placement of a retail chain is one thing. Wanting a sect on people or as you would have us understand (consumers) to stay away from an area in theory or at least in frequency is another issue. Understand?

I guess you don't get the concept of targetted development?

Okay, let me see if I can explain...

Bricktown is targetted at a certain demographic, or more accurately, it is targetted at people expecting a certain thing, which more often than not come from a certain socioeconomic background. If you put too many establishments in there that dilute the look/feel of the current package that you're selling, or, you make people in your target audience uncomfortable visiting a certain area, then you'll end up with nothing.

As far as wanting "certain people" to stay away.. I guess to some extent, I would not like to see crime there... I like the fact that I can park my car there and have a reasonable expectation that it won't be stolen. I like the fact that I don't see people gunned down on the sidewalk over there, I like the fact that there is a heavy police presence, and it's a safe environment that I could bring my family to if I had one.

I'm not at all advocating something like posting a sign that says "No _____ Allowed" (obviously, that'd be illegal). I do think it's just fine to price things, however, so that the only people that you'll find in the area are those expecting a good time and willing to pay well for one. To my knowledge, that doesn't exclude anyone.

HOT ROD

03-04-2005, 07:38 PM

Whoa-ho buddy..

Where in this thread was there a racist comment made? There was definitely an accusation based on a misunderstanding that a racist comment was made, but to my knowledge there was not even a comment referring to race made.

Diversity is fine, but you can clearly see that some malls cater to one demographic, and some to others. It's not complicated in the least. It's the way the world works. It was suggested that Bricktown cater to the same demographic. For the record, I was discussing economic demographic. Yes, there will be diversity -- plenty of lower-income people frequent Bricktown, but if you want to go to Wal-Mart or Old Navy, go over to Belle Isle or wherever it is.

The space in and around Bricktown is a limited commodity. My hope is just that it is put to the best use possible to give outsiders the best possible impression of our city.

Let me ask you a question...

If you brought a visitor to Oklahoma City, and wanted to impress them where woudl you take them, and why? -- and no, your momma's house doesn't count :D

Midtowner, I never said this thread had a racist comment!

I said, there seems to be the opinion of many in OK that "those people over there" Point Point Point, and Avoid. I know, because I am from OKC.

I Love OKC but THIS is what is really holding the city back. If Oklahoma City truly embraced the diversity it has then we all would truly realize exactly how wonderful the city is, then when someone asks about the city we could hold our heads up high and tout our cosmopolitan amenities around town instead of trying to "explain this and that."

HOT ROD

03-04-2005, 07:48 PM

Midtowner

03-04-2005, 08:18 PM

Midtowner, I never said this thread had a racist comment!

I said, there seems to be the opinion of many in OK that "those people over there" Point Point Point, and Avoid. I know, because I am from OKC.

I Love OKC but THIS is what is really holding the city back. If Oklahoma City truly embraced the diversity it has then we all would truly realize exactly how wonderful the city is, then when someone asks about the city we could hold our heads up high and tout our cosmopolitan amenities around town instead of trying to "explain this and that."

Which people over where? Are you denying the existance of demographics or targetted developments?

It wasn't you that was talking about race either.

There's only one person that was discussing it besides me, and the only reason I mentioned it was because they were steering the conversation that way.

Midtowner

03-04-2005, 08:19 PM

Totally agree!!! Bricktown should be unique but the triangle on the other hand, well it should be a bit more mainstream (upscale chain if you will), as it will tailor toward the creative upper middle class that will more than likely live downtown.

I shop at these mid and upscale shops more than I do at Macy and Nordstrom and I would probably fit into that demographic listed above. I think an upscale boutique urban version of Old Navy would do just fine in the triangle - I think we have an Old Navy stand-alone boutique store in Downtown Seattle - dont we Decious?; but since Bricktown is for the tourists - we should keep it with a "local" focus.

The true creative class shops online anyhow :D

Better stuff for better prices ;)

Karried

03-04-2005, 09:17 PM

ha,ha Midtowner, I was waiting for that!

Ebay ... here I come! No parking, no tax, front door delivery, bargains galore & no hassles...now
that 's shopping.

But, when I want to enjoy OKC I'll hit Bricktown for concerts and dining ... but shopping? hhmmm we'll see.

HOT ROD

03-04-2005, 09:49 PM

You are correct about online for shopping, as I just spent over $500.00 online at drugstore.com and ecost.com no less than 30 minutes ago. :).

Decious

03-04-2005, 10:28 PM

Yeah, shopping online is sweet. Not having to pay sales tax is always a plus.

Of course I understand targetted development. Anyone who has cable, satellite or listens to the radio does. I just have to wonder who this particular demographic is. You know, spelled out in clear and concise terms. Maybe someone could start another thread and define for us, or maybe even compare and contrast the targetted demo from the one that needs to stay far, far, far away.

I believe that we all understand each other as far as Old Navy goes. I shop online frequently but will still shop and hang out in Bricktown. I love the atmosphere that exists down there and am sure that it will just continue to improve and become more of a destination. Hopefully a liveable one in the near future if everything goes according to plan.

Well, I must now accomplish some amount of rest. I have to fly out early in the morning on my way home to OKC. And that of course means the ritualistic stop in Denver and bumpy Frontier Express Jet ride intermingled with an hour layover. Now that's what we really need. Direct air service to the west coast. Let's start a petition or something to get Jet Blue at WR!! Yeah right huh?!! By the way, there is still room for anyone who wants to attend the Storm Spotters Training at Rose State. I'm hoping it's very informative. I'm a bonafide weather fanatic!! It's an awesome creation.

okcpulse

03-05-2005, 01:13 AM

I only shop online for things I can't get a good deal on here in Oklahoma City. Otherwise, even though I, like everyone in the world, do not like to pay taxes, I'd rather keep my money in Oklahoma City, shop in Oklahoma City, pay my taxes in Oklahoma City, so I can see better schools, better roads, an ever-improving zoo, and contribute to state services.

Demographics is not the issue in regards to those who visit Bricktown. The retailers, restaurants and clubs are required to follow high standards set by the Bricktown Association. That rules out McDonald's, Taco Bell, the hole in the wall bars, and any establishment that does not meet those expectations by the association, the people of Oklahoma City, and visitors from out of town.

The people who patronize Bricktown can be anyone, because people from all walks of life are welcome, and that is how I would expect Bricktown to be enjoyed. It doesn't matter who we are. We all know Bricktown is a special occasion to us, and we will and should always treat it that way. Even if some people are short on cash, or don't make much, Bricktown will still be a special place and a great time.

So what are we really talking about? Protecting Bricktown's quality, integrity and unique theme. That is something that is seen in city after city across the globe.

Karried

03-05-2005, 08:54 AM

Here, here, very well put, I agree 100%.

(And I do shop here quite often, but occasionally I love the convenience of online shopping. )

Anyway, I agree with your post. I know maintaining and perserving OKC's Bricktown image is tantamount to a successful future for the state. We need something like Bricktown to draw tourism, and intice future businesses to OK.

It's a great selling point.

A personal experience - took a few relatives from CA to Abuelos and saw the Christmas displays...

they repeatedly said, " I can't believe this is OK" " I never knew this was here" " I never expected this" on and on ( preconceived stereotypes).

I was so proud of our Bricktown!

xrayman

03-05-2005, 09:59 PM

Midtowner

03-05-2005, 10:53 PM

Sorry, but I can't apologize for my lack of enthusiasm for "diversity." It's one of those things that is politically correct to praise, but in reality "diversity" and multi-cultural whatever doesn't work, has never worked and never WILL work. It's not just a "white attitude," it's reality! Black people hang out with black people, baseball fans hang out with baseball fans, white people hang out with white people, gamers hang out with gamers, business types with business types, I could go on and on. And spare me the "Some of my best friends are....."

Wow. Could it maybe be more social background than race? Did it occur to you that many within a race grew up sharing similar values and under similar circumstances. Much of that can be attributed to race, but that's not the end all/be all of it. I agree that the word "diversity" gets tossed around a lot as a goal without many really understanding what it means. A common misconception is that diversity means race. Certainly race is one of those things, but it isn't all that diversity means. I guess race is sometimes all some people see though. Sad really...

Look at all the apologizing in threads like this. WHY? Look at our crime statistics - not only in Oklahoma City, but all over this country. Look at the racial makeup of crime. The "color of crime" as many in LE call it. It's not "racist".... it is a FACT in black and white (pardon the pun) and on paper. Are all minorities criminals? No, that's ridiculous. But, are most criminals minorities? The statistics would overwhelmingly say --- yes. Is that too difficult for tender "diverse" ears? Maybe. But it's the truth and we all know it is the truth. The immigration of Hispanics (legal and illegal) has caused a massive spike in crime in America, including this city. One of the most incredible statistics to me in the entire realm of criminal justice is this (you won't believe me, so start googling).....fully ONE THIRD of all of those incarcerated in federal prisons are ILLEGAL ALIENS.....arrested and imprisoned for committing violent offenses. They are here illegally in the first place. These statistics are not discussed among "decent people." We feel the need to apologize and begin truth-telling tirades with that old, "I'm not racist, BUT...."

Take one issue, so-called "racial profiling." They have seminars to teach LE how to not engage in such "racist" activity. Truth? Truth, that most of us already know? Racial profiling in a nation where a minority of people (be they black, brown, green or purple) commit the VAST number of violent crimes and property crimes is part of effective law enforcement! Period. End of story. If you see two strange dogs around you while you walk down the street with your small children, a collie and a pit bull, are you more concerned with the collie -- or the pit bull? We all know the answer and why is that? Because statistics tell you to be more concerned with the pit bull. To not be, would be irresponsible. It may not be fair to ALL pit bulls, but it is the right thing to do to protect your family! It is called PROFILING. We do it each and every day in many facets of life. *Racial* profiling is going to happen as long as race plays such a factor in crimes. The fact that 70% of stranger rapes in America in 1999 (last year for statistics) were committed by black men against white women is a statistic nobody made up - it's reality - it's the worst kind of "hate" crime. To deny it and call the messenger a racist is the "hate" crime. For a woman to not "profile," and to not expect her to, is irresponsible.

Not sure where you got your statistics for black men, but there are plenty of sites referring to that as absolute myth:

http://www.dvpsh.org/sa/sa.htm
www.ou.edu/womensoc/myths
http://64.233.167.104/search?q=cache:LaSqClBBQs4J:www.ccasa.org/documents/Rape_Myths_%26_Facts.pdf+70%25+stranger+rapes+blac k&hl=en&client=firefox-a

The number that one of those articles gives is that 3.3% of all rapes involve white women being raped by black men. Please do not post your KKK statistics here, k?

As for most criminals being "minorities", let's take this interesting figure... in 1993, 15 billion was stolen by "street crime". In that same year, white collar criminals embezelled 200 billion.

As far as racial profiling, study after study has shown that minorities are more likely to get pulled over, and twice or three times as likely to have an officer ask to search their car.

As for "one-third" of inmates being illegal immigrants, even WHITEREVOLUTION.COM, a white supremicist website only has this number at 20%, and as round as that is, there's very little chance it's true. Again, racist lies are not the way to prove a point.

My friend, I, and most sane people aren't buying the bill of goods that you're selling. You can live your life being afraid of other people because of the color of their skin. I will tell you something -- that is a sad and stupid way to go through life.

For all of these reasons - and more - I don't want an Urban Outfitters in Bricktown. I don't want any of these businesses that cater to those whose primary job is as a professional victim of "the man" who just can't understand why there is so much "intolerance." Look at Los Angeles.....no....look at CALIFORNIA. Look at Boston, Detroit, Washington DC, Miami, Cleveland, New Orleans, on and on and on. No, some of us will pay lip service to "diversity" while knowing that the whole multi-cultural experiment is a fraud upon the America that was once the envy of the world. Look at Dallas. The explosive growth of Collin County and Denton County is indeed caused by white flight. Blame them? Crime in Dallas has soared. It is minority on minority and minority on white crime. White on minority crime is so low that when it happens it makes the front pages as a "hate crime" as opposed to the other garden-variety "love crimes."

As for "Urban OUtfitters" catering to "professional victim[s] of the man" (I guess you're talking about blacks? Please look at this page that I randomly selected from their website:

http://www.urbanoutfitters.com/jump.jsp?itemID=164&itemType=CATEGORY&iMainCat=163&iSubCat=164

I want you to notice the fact that every single last one of their models is WHITE! Of course, I shouldn't have to tell you to notice someone's race.. I'd just think you'd be smart enough to actually look at a company's website before going off on some racist rant about its customers...

The fact is that Urban Outfitters sells very chic, hip clothes that young people would wear to the many establishments in the Bricktown area. Check out those clothes. Great for wearing out to clubs and such... but hey, when you wear bed sheets, I guess you don't have to worry about what you're wearing.
[/quote]

Some of us want to protect Bricktown from the fate that has befallen the urban areas of most all our great metropolises in this country. Some of us are tired of apologizing for saying things like gangbangers are at Crossroads Mall. Hell.....THEY ARE! We must wake up and not allow our city to be told that to be a "real city" we must attract the very things ------ that will destroy it.[/QUOTE]

Gosh, I thought it was the Jew that was destroying our urban centers... Couldn't find the statistics though.. maybe I'll go check whiterevolution.com again?

xrayman

03-05-2005, 11:20 PM

Midtowner

03-05-2005, 11:37 PM

Your leftist revisionism and politically correct reprimand is laughable.

I do NOT appreciate the (typical) slam basically calling me a racist for stating the facts concerning race and crime in America. Stating what most see clearly on the late local news does not equal a "white supremacist." I didn't call any fellow posters at this forum names - you clearly were calling me a racist. Don't you hate it when those on the right say that those of your ilk "hate America?" You know what I mean then. Let's debate the issues - not personalities and mean-spirited attacks. I will not apologize for what I wrote - because it is true. I will stand by every single word, MidTowner.

So, since I'm not scared of black and hispanic folks, I "hate America"... got it. What you wrote is absolutely not true. Heck, your made up numbers were more extreme than a white supremicist site that I cited earlier. Give it up man.

YOUR so-called "statistics" include this doozy from one of your links. Pay close attention to the last sentence:

"Fact: Men who rape come from all races, all ethnicities, and all social classes. Studies conclude that men usually rape women from their own race, ethnicity, and social class. When men rape women of other races and ethnicities, it is more often a white assailant raping a woman of color than a man of color raping a white woman."

Do you believe that? Does leftist university doublespeak really have you so conned as to believe that? I simply invite you downtown to talk to the OKCPD or anyone in the DA's office. That is laughable! And we should be able to talk about this without the racism that YOUR post implied.

Do you have a source from the OKCPD or DA's office? The statistics that I found were that of ALL rapes, 3.3% involved black men raping white women while 3.4% involved white men raping black women.

I've found other stats (probably more credible) that drop your statistic from 70% down to 40%, but that's still a far cry from your stats. Care to post links to where your stats come from? Or are you proving the adage true: "75% of statistics are made up on the spot"

http://library.flawlesslogic.com/rape.htm

The difficult thing about these statistics is that nearly every single one of them is created with some sort of an agenda. An educated man knows how and when to look past the statistics, and especially at their source. When one source comes up with consistantly flawed or false statistics, it's safe to assume he or she or it has an agenda. I think it's safe to say that your agenda is to show that blacks and hispanics are for some reason to be "feared".

I would say that criminals should be feared. Not because of their race, but because of their background and their values -- those are not products of race, but of upbringing.

Race does not make one inherently bad, that is what you seem to be arguing here, and that is simply not true.

As for the social backgrounds......The "why" is different from the "what" when it comes to WHO is committing the crimes at staggering rates. The social engineers at the universities can analyze why, but don't deny me the right to say things without the thought police coming along to "correct' me with ridiculous statistics and mean-spirited personal attacks.

The leftist carping and excuse-making never ceases.

I like how you dropped the Urban Outfitters thing. I guess you feel a little dumb for bringing that one up, huh?

It's very obvious that you're new here. [ yoda ]Left wing being anti-racist makes you not [ / yoda ]. I'm about as right wing as they come, but I simply cannot condone this filth that your posting.

Please tell me what end you are trying to serve? Originally it was to prove that "Urban Outfitters" would make Bricktown dangerous by attracting *GASP* BLACK PEOPLE!! (run away now)... now you seem to have dropped the Urban Outfitters thing because I guess you realized how you had been ignorant as to what Urban Outfitters does, however, you persist in trying to make the case that we don't want any of "those people" in our fair city -- is that a safe thing to say?

Explain yourself, racist...

xrayman

03-05-2005, 11:42 PM

Midtowner

03-06-2005, 12:28 AM

MidTowner,

Your last sentence should get you the boot.

I will no longer discuss this with you. You are the typical leftwing race-baiter who attempts to turn every serious discussion about race - if it includes tough numbers - into one about "racism."

You failed to get my analogy regarding "hating America" (It had nothing to do with race, but with mudslinging from all directions and its repugnency and impact on public discourse.)

I'm finished with you.

So you concede all points?

I'm not the one posting fake statistics to prove an ill-informed point about a business that I didin't understand...

But hey, that's cool.

If you think hating America means responding to false and misleading racist remarks, then I guess I hate America. Hysterical.

P.S. -- could you also please provide me with what viewpoint of mine that I would be considered "liberal"? Liberals aren't the only folks that abhor racists ya know.

HFK

03-06-2005, 01:05 AM

Midtowner

03-06-2005, 11:08 AM

"Those three bring in basically the same type of demographic -- exactly the kind of demographic (no offense intended) that needs to stay far, far away from Bricktown."

The problem with your strikingly condescending statement has nothing to do with whether or not a "Dollar General" or an "Old Navy" are built in or around Bricktown. It has to do with those people that you consider attracted by such stores. In your world, that 'demographic' doesn't belong in Bricktown. As a matter of fact, that 'demographic' belongs "far, far, away from Bricktown".

You've clumsily attempted to hide behind a code word. You've substituted a sanitized, modernized, code for a vulgar, disreputable phrase, in this case "that demographic" is substituted for the Politically Incorrect "those people". The words are different, but the meaning is identically disgusting. And, adding insult to injury, you preface your offensive statement with "no offense intended".

And I've clarified that point, and my meaning of "that demographic" in further posts. I don't necessarily mean "those people". I mean certain people looking for certain types of entertainment and certain venues that I don't think would be overly helpful in Bricktown. By that, I mean cheap entertainment like dollar movies, pawn shops, etc. I agree with you that it's painfully obvious that for Bricktown to thrive, development needs to be planned to cater to a certain type of demographic or would it be better to say "to provide a certain type of entertainment opportunity".

You remind me a bit of the Upper West Sider who supports the concept of Diversity, but shivers at the thought of the Harlem "demographic" descending south of 110th.

Perversely, I believe that I understand what you're getting at, although I get to the same place in a different way. Isn't it simpler to say that Dollar Generals can be built and, apparently, thrive almost anywhere, whereas Gucci (and we're a long damn way from seeing a Gucci in Bricktown, BTW) will ONLY be built and thrive if the conditions are just so? And part of those conditions require that Gucci be built far, far away from a Dollar General.

It's all so obvious I'm not sure why the hell we're even discussing it.

True except for the part where you insinuate that I'm somehow 'afraid' the Harlem demographic whatever that is. The original discussion in this thread centered around why or why not to build an Old Navy in Bricktown. Urban Outfitters is perfect for the area, where an Old Navy might do okay there, but would remove the opportunity for a more unique, more targetted shopping experience. Urban Outfitters is really a perfect direction for the area.

In closing, I'd like to say that I do appreciate your honesty: you freely admit your elitism. In the same breath you reveal your arrogance and stupidity.

No offense intended.

P.S. I've always thought it supremely silly that any resident of Oklahoma should consider themselves 'elitist'. Perhaps I've just revealed a touch of my own bigotry...

So because you live outside of Oklahoma, you somehow consider yourself above us? Intriguing.

By calling myself 'elitist', I am simply stating my belief that life rewards hard work and ability. By being an 'elitist', I do personally view "poor folks" as victims of their own life choices. If this was not the case, there wouldn't be Harvard grads coming out of the projects in big cities, and Laotian immigrants who came over on boats owning restaurant chains. If someone is poor, I consider the fact that they have not taken advantage of college (for which student loans are readily available) or vo-tech which requires no more than a GED to qualify for. That's fodder for another thread (and I believe there already has been one on that). If you consider yourself better than me, I'll invite you to compare your lifestyle to mine in 10 years after I've finished my education and had a little time to get the 'ol professional career going.

Bigotry refers to one that is impartial to a group, religion, race or certain set of politics. I guess to some extent I'm bigotted in that I'm partial to people that believe that hard work and ambition are rewarded. I suppose I'm bigotted against people that feel we should fear others because of the color of their skin. I guess I'm pretty darned bigotted against folks that believe that Oklahoma is no more than "fly over country". If those views make me a bigot, I'll wear the monicker proudly.

Sooner&RiceGrad

03-06-2005, 05:56 PM

My goodness............. this thread has become a huge disaster basically. Anyway, I'm sick and tired of this, "Ooooh, you just said you don't want so and so in Bricktown, your a bigoted prick!" Bull. Or the classic, "As a gay black guy I feel impeded and terrified in Oklahoma", more Bull. If you all are sooo fantastically brave and good, why aren't you posting in our faith forum, and why aren't you just roughing it, and ignoring what THOSE people say. Instead, you all have to go and spread this politically correct crap around like wildfire at the mention of everything that comes within a mile of racism, christianity, gay bashing, or other related loooovely topics. Here in Oklahoma very few people bash those that 'go against the grain', and lately have encouraged it. We do discourage people from leaving Christ, Allah, or even Buddha (whoever) behind in the dust, and we discourage people from moving to France or Canada b/c they feel they need more liberation. The minority of people here do actually bash, rant, and rave people that are 'differant' or immoral, but most of us are still quite friendly people. Political correction, the theme of this horrible thread, is basically gilding the lily at the expense of others.

Happy bigoting.

metro

03-06-2005, 06:06 PM

what does all this have to do with Old Navy's expansion plans again??????

Sooner&RiceGrad

03-06-2005, 06:09 PM

Nothing.

Here, let me show you a picture.

http://www.ae.gatech.edu/research/controls/pictures/f020801_gtar/More%20of%20Nothing.JPG

HFK

03-06-2005, 09:23 PM

"So because you live outside of Oklahoma, you somehow consider yourself above us? Intriguing"

Nope. I live right here in the OKC metro area. I'm not a native, but I've been here long enough that I suppose I'm an Okie by now.

Anyway, I appreciate your reply. I suppose we've wandered off of the beaten path, thanks to me and a few others. I'll try to do a better job of sticking to the topic...

metro

03-09-2005, 09:55 AM

Whom is this in reference to? I live right here in Oklahoma

okcpulse

03-09-2005, 01:56 PM

Okay folks. This discussion is completely off topic, and we need to get this thread under control.

Ethnic matters are better left for another thread, or by PM.

xrayman

03-10-2005, 10:56 PM

Excuse me? "By PM????" I agree it wandered off topic, but why are "ethnic matters" best discussed by PM? Just curious. Race seems to always be an issue we would rather not discuss, especially if the realities upset the university-based leftist pushers of the "joys" of diversity. There was a natural progression into this topic in the thread, but I agree it wandered a bit. At any rate, it's time we take these issues out of their politically correct closets and place them squarely on the table with hard questions from those who have seen America's cities destroyed from within.

okcpulse

03-11-2005, 01:39 AM

xrayman

03-11-2005, 12:50 PM

Gotcha. It makes sense now. Sorry for misreading your post.

Midtowner

03-12-2005, 09:56 AM

By PM I mean if someone has offended another poster regarding racial issues and a disagreement arises between those two posters, then that disagreement, IMO, should be settled by PM (personal message) so that this thread stays on topic.

Or, if there are other people that want to join in on this discussion, then another thread can be started to concentrate on the topic of ethnic matters.

My issue was that false numbers, numbers more extreme than even white-supremicist websites claimed were being claimed as fact. The individual in question had an agenda that needed to be brought to light.

xrayman

03-12-2005, 12:31 PM

Midtowner

03-12-2005, 04:36 PM

Midtowner........THIS is what PM is for.

But, since you brought ME up here again......

Why compare my figures to what they have on "WHITE SUPREMACIST SITES?" You pointed me to statistics that showed that there are more WHITE men raping BLACK women than vice versa. Let's talk about an agenda! Those statistics are turning the world upside down, but they fit your leftist crusade against uncomfortable truths. Your bringing this up, referring to me again (albeit as "individual in question") and saying I have an "agenda" that "needed to be brought to the light" is - again - trying to tag me with this absurd racist label.

In another thread you didn't claim to be a Democrat. My guess is that even the Democrats are too conservative for you. Part of the social leftist agenda is to not allow discussion of tough racial issues, police the thought of anyone daring to question multi-culturalism as the panacea of celebration that its promoters expect from all of us. (Not to mention the constant drone from the radical left of blaming all problems regarding race on white males like me.)

I shouldn't feel the need to publicly defend myself from your attacks - either blatant or between-the-lines. To call me out again as "the individual in question" and say I have an "agenda" that "needed to be brought to light" is unacceptable to me in order to have ANY further discussion. Calling me a racist in one post - and insinuating as much in another is over the top. If you have any further issues with me - you know where the PM is.

I'm actually about as far from being a leftist as is humanly possible. I do, however, believe that folks deserve to be looked at based on their individual merits and choices, not judged by the amount of pigmentation in their skin.

As far as my politics go, I'm actually a card-carrying Republican. As far as social policy goes, I'd probably be more of a libertarian than left or right.

You still have yet to show where you got your statistics. You still have yet to show that anything you say is truthful. I posted plenty of statistics from other locations (which I provided) that show otherwise. Your method of defending your statistics is to say that I'm liberal and a "multiculturalist"?

As far as your PM request, I requested you move the racial discussions to PM on post #11.. A long time ago.

xrayman

03-12-2005, 05:30 PM

Midtowner

03-12-2005, 05:49 PM

As long as you continue to call me a racist on this forum - I will respond ON THIS FORUM. The PM's should be for off-topic discussions, which is a good idea - or a new thread. YOUR statistics were laughable, Midtowner, please. Unfortunately, as everything on the net these days has to be proved with a "link," I have not had time to do the research to be able to provide that to you. I have heard BLACK talk show hosts give the figure I gave and have seen it before as well. Your "research" and "statistics" involved sending people to sites claiming that more white men rape black women than black men rape white women - and you want to be taken seriously? This "pigmentation" argument is a straw man. If you want to believe we are one big happy family without differences and still be a "Card-Carrying Republican" that's fine - but it's not MY conservative values. I have no problem saying it is WRONG that the Justice Department is no longer allowed to record rapes in categories. A "stranger rape" (knife at your throat as you're thrown into the backseat of an '85 caddy) and a "date rape" (arguments over who said "no" and when) are two different levels of crime in most people's minds. BUT, now all rapes are recorded the same by the DOJ. Interestingly, the NAACP was instrumental in that because they felt that the statistics were "racist" in and of themselves. Draw your own conclusions, Midtowner, but don't call ME a racist and act like differences in pigmentation make a difference only in some racist's mind.

There's nothing conservative at all about believing that race even matters or even plays into these things. It may be cultural, it may be socio-economic, it may be a myriad of things. However, I have a hard time believing that because someone has more pigment in their skin, they're predisposed to crime.

The stats that I posted seem true enough. They does take into account that the VAST number of rapes are date or aquaintance rape. They also held that the instances of blacks doing the raping and whites doing the raping when it came to strangers were about the same.

I believe our differences, and why we're all not just "one big happy family" are more easily explained through socioeconomic and educational differences than "race" is. I guess that's what sets us apart. I really don't see how either position is more "conservative" than the other though. Don't think that just because you're conservative in one area that all your other views are conservative.

Of course, at the end of the day, I also fail to see what any of this has to do with Old Navy, or why you brought up these rape numbers in the first place. It was absolutely out of left field.

mranderson

03-12-2005, 06:36 PM

Gentlemen: This topic is about Old Navy. Not about your racial beliefs. Please get back on topic.

:backtotop

xrayman

03-12-2005, 06:38 PM

xrayman

03-12-2005, 06:41 PM

Gentlemen: This topic is about Old Navy. Not about your racial beliefs. Please get back on topic.
:backtotop

I agree, MRAnderson, but I WILL defend myself when called a racist and when it is again INSINUATED. It's not about racial beliefs, it's about fairness to posters on this forum. I explained in the post above how this came about in this thread - and it is relevant. (Gasp! from those who are taught that we are all one big happy family and race doesn't matter - and if it does, and you are WHITE, it's best to keep our big mouths shut.) Sorry, I don't buy it -- and neither should you.

HOT ROD

03-12-2005, 10:01 PM

LAST WORD FROM ME - PERIOD:

" However, I have a hard time believing that because someone has more pigment in their skin, they're predisposed to crime."

I don't know about "predisposed" but the fact they are committing more crimes? ABSOLUTELY!

I said in an earlier post that the whys are best left to those who would like to study these things. HOWEVER, if you don't think that blacks commit crimes (for WHATEVER reason) far out of proportion than whites (even though whites far outnumber blacks in the general population) than you simply are not paying attention. You don't even need statistics for this: Just watch your late local news! I'm NOT SAYING that it is necessarily *simply* because they are black! In fact, I have offered ZERO reasons as to WHY this might be. I only know --- that it is. Yes, it's still legal to say this without being brought up on "hate crime" charges ala Canada or France.

I think this came up because some seem to feel that a city becomes a "real city" when they have all of these things that attract the hip-hop culture. There were insinuations that people shouldn't fear an influx of minorities into Bricktown (even though statistics and anecdotal evidence is clear as glass). THAT'S what started this sub-topic.

I have only stated the obvious and it obviously struck a nerve with your university-coached mind of multicultural sensibilities. I WILL NOT apologize for standing firm in my knowledge that race and crime and its impact on our nations cities is an inescapable FACT of American life. If you would like to pretend that it doesn't matter - I suggest you move to Newark or Detroit and report back soon. My guess is you will agree that for ***WHATEVER REASON*** young black men are committing violent crimes at a rate far and beyond whites of their age.

xray, what are you talking about?

the fact is economic disparity is the root cause of crime moreso than any other factor. I find it offensive at best that you claim race is the cause of crime in the nation's cities. Most people would find it difficult to live under conditions that criminals live, without ultimately resorting toward crime in some form, including high-standing moral conservatives such as yourself.

You claimed that statistics, such as the local news, prove that minorities commit more crime. Fact is, minorities and crime SELLS! Would you find it more interesting in the news, that the executives of ENRON committed fraud against the government and thousands of investors OR that your local 7-11 store in the inner city was held-up by a hispanic gang that has been taking over Oklahoma City over the last several years? You cant always believe what you see in the news (especially in Oklahoma).

You claimed that people should fear the influx of minorities into Bricktown. Well take off your blinders dude, because minorities are an integral part of the fabric of Oklahoma City, already; including Bricktown. Without the populous of Oklahoma City, Bricktown and all of its wonderful attractions would fail as fast as if an F5 tornado came threw and cleared everything away. The true demographics show that minorities are more often urban dwellers and support urban dwellings such as Bricktown. The white flight - as you referred to in an earlier post - is probably the cause of this fact, as whites (such as yourself) feel that urban dwellings are less desireable with the "influx of minorities." I think on your next trip into Downtown OKC, you need to take a look and see who is really ALREADY there - on the weekend especially!

You claimed that there are many who claim a city is not a city until it has all of the things that cator to a hip hop crowd. Well, most of us on this forum "look up" to cities around the nation and world that cator to the urban crowd. I for one, hate hip hop but you can not deny their contribution to the urban feel of a city. All of the cities we quote on this forum - as being cool or desireable places to live - cator to hip hop and other urban crowds. - Although I should not do so, I think what you are referring to is the "Thug hop" crowd as being undesireable. Thug hop is an underground "movement" of the urban society which promotes the popular "thug life" you see in movies. I dont agree that hip hop is undesireable in a city (as long as there is representation from other crowds as well), but I agree that the thug movement should not be allowed or embraced in Oklahoma City.

You claimed that those of us who do not believe your claim of higher black crime; that we should move to Detroit or Newark. Your statement does not support your supported fact, that minorities have a higher propensity toward crime. Your statement does however support the FACT that economically depressed areas of the nation have higher crime rates and UNFORTUNATELY, that these areas are often the playground for those who embrace the Thug Life. I would tend to think that Bricktown (and OKC in general) is a long way from being economically depressed, so you can rest your fears about crime coming to Bricktown. I remember when Remington Park was being constructed back in the 1980's that there were many in this state who claimed such a facility would make OKC the centre for mafia activities and urban crime. Well, nothing has happened so far. And OKC touts Remington Park as one of its top attractions.

My whole point here is to make you, xray, and others aware of the Truth about crime and the media. Unfortunately, crime sells and the crime most are interested in often involves that which we could point at from a distance. Someone on the forum posted that this sort of crime represented 18 billion (or so) per annum but that "white collar" crime accounted for more than 10 times as much. But white collar crime is not interesting, who cares that the former CFO of a major corporation broke the rules of engagement when it comes to government contracts and corporate influence. That was only a 15 second mention in the news, because the offendents were white.

I truly encourage you all to embrace the diversity you have in Oklahoma City before you all destroy yourselves. Xray, remember the bombing? Well, there were many people of many ethnicities that were killed and disfigured because of a terrorist minded individual. Those victims represented the FABRIC of Oklahoma City and the true diversity that exists often under the surface. These were great but ordinary people, tax paying - hard working - educated - God fearing people, whose lives were forever destroyed because of a rage that existed in one (ok, two) person. In Oklahoma City of all places!!!

What about that statistic? [o and by the way, the defendents were both white men].

I say we close this subject and move on to making Oklahoma City better. We have come a long way and we have more to go. While these discussions are relavent and prudent, perhaps they would go better in a "Society or Social" type of Forum [ hey Patrick, Todd ].

This one is about the continued improvement of Oklahoma City based on the MAPS projects that were meant to improve the inner city and enhance Oklahoma City's quality of life.

Continue the Renaissance Oklahoma City!