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barnold
06-16-2010, 09:35 PM
It's been 6 months now since Mayor Cornett appeared in countless TV ads touting that a "vote for Maps3 will add police and fire protection." There was no denial of this promise by city leaders and many joined the Mayor for face time in the great push to get Maps3 passed.

July 1 starts the new fiscal year for the city and we will start this year off with 22 less police and 29 less firefighter positions that will be filled. (These numbers do not include how many each department is already running short, as are many other essential city services are as well.) Mayor Cornett announced to the voters of Oklahoma City that the use tax from Maps3 would actually add 20 police and 10 firefighter positions.

Who will hold the city leaders accountable for their promises? Who will remember the TV ads, blogs, radio interviews and other propaganda that was spread for months? It seems only those that it directly affects. The only problem with this way of thinking is that until you don't have a service you've taken for granted all this time; it doesn't really affect you- does it?

Several on OKC talk were bold in stating that they would be the first to stand in front of the council and demand that essential city services be maintained. Where have they gone? Other threads have touted how OKC's population base has grown over the past several years, but few admit that the employee base that delivers these services has actually decreased.

I won't stand idly by waiting for promises to come to fruition and will continue to ask the questions here and in other forums. But when will someone in a position of authority with the city stand up and answer for what they have promised the citizens of OKC? Politicians count on you not remembering all their promises over the past 4 years. Will you? Why do we have to wait 4 years when you have a voice now? Honesty from our city leaders is expected; accountability is demanded and failure of either of these traits should be immediately corrected. If not by those in public office, then by those that placed them there by their individual voice and vote.

brianinok
06-16-2010, 09:41 PM
MAPS3 will increase our tax base, which will allow the city to hire more police and firefighters. This is not rocket science.

Mikemarsh51
06-16-2010, 09:46 PM
Nice theory Brianinok, Can you explain why the numbers of police and firefighters has declined since the first and subsequent Maps projects? It can't be the tax base getting smaller. You being so niave is almost cute.

Steve
06-16-2010, 09:50 PM
1. Mayor Mick Cornett promised during the MAPS 3 campaign that if the tax were passed, it would put more police and firefighters on the streets.
2. Curious: does a growing population always translate into a higher work load? What is the impact of better built homes, a shrinking supply of older, more fire prone homes, and technological advances?

barnold
06-16-2010, 10:00 PM
Steve,

1. Yes he he did, and no it has not.
2. In the case of Okc, YES it has. Total work load for all departments has increased and the new motto of okc services is "do more with less". For the FD it's not just fires calls and hasn't been for more than 20 years, you know that. As to the newer homes, unless they have a sprinkler system installed in them, they actually burn faster and hotter than 20 years ago making the occupants time to escape even less than it used to be.

Mikemarsh51
06-16-2010, 10:02 PM
You have to think outside of the house Steve. Even though we have better built structures, we still have natural disasters, motor vehicle accidents, domestic accidents, domestic abuse, any number of criminal situations causing injury and overall bad health of people. Public safety should keep up with the population growth.

okcpulse
06-16-2010, 10:04 PM
1. Mayor Mick Cornett promised during the MAPS 3 campaign that if the tax were passed, it would put more police and firefighters on the streets.
2. Curious: does a growing population always translate into a higher work load? What is the impact of better built homes, a shrinking supply of older, more fire prone homes, and technological advances?

Not to mention better efficiency from within the police force. Our city's population has increased, but does crime skyrocket with population growth? Too many cops can create bored cops, and that can be bad.

Besides, we just started collecting the tax a few months ago. This is a pay-as-you-go program. Not an instant-gratification-finance-and-build-the-projects-now program.

Not trying to to sound short, barnold, but think things through before coming to these conclusions instead of jumping to them. Heck, after the first MAPS was passed in 1993 my stepdad expected to see cranes flying for the new arena on the day we started collecting the tax. Doesn't work that way.

Mikemarsh51
06-16-2010, 10:08 PM
Brianinok, When ground was broken for the canal on 7/4/1998, we had approx. 975 personnel on the fire dept. A class was started on 3/19/1999 that brought our total to 999 personnel. Since that time and several Maps projects later we are somewhere around 930. Splain the the rocket science or be prepared to believe public safety is in fact not a priority with this mayor, city council and city manager.

Mikemarsh51
06-16-2010, 10:11 PM
Pulse, are you serious? We have lived through 16 years of waiting for things to get better. And it has been that long since the city actually had a contract with us in place at the start of the fiscal year. Wasnt us dragging our feet on an agreement.

barnold
06-16-2010, 10:11 PM
okcpulse,

If the pay as you go program were true, then why was the city purchasing land for the core to shore in Nov. prior to the election?

Also, what sound logic comes from cutting positions from the general fund that you claim you don't have money for with the promise that they will hire 10 additional positions with Maps3 use tax. -29 now + 10 in 6 more months still leaves a deficit of -19 positions. Funny math. Don't think my accountant would go for it.

OKC@heart
06-16-2010, 10:57 PM
The taxes generated by the result of Maps III will also certainly increase as a result. But even the Maps money is not in hand to be used yet, but is accrued as it is collected in a pay as you go model.

rcjunkie
06-17-2010, 02:45 AM
Oh great, another thread with nothing but we need, we were promised, we don't have! WA WA WA WA WA.

For Gods sake, get a grip, stop bitching, be thankful you have a job and just do it. If your that unhappy retire/quit/move to Dallas or Kansas City and start a new life. Or better yet, move to Tenkiller with me, one can never have too many fishing buddies.

I still find it amusing that the only ones complaining are Police and Fire, I guess all other employees (Water, Streets, Parks, Animal Control, etc;) understand the financial and budget process, they know that in lean times you have to make do with less and are just happy to still be employed.

Got to go, time for breakfast so that I can be on the lake by sunrise!

Larry OKC
06-17-2010, 03:02 AM
rc: don't you understand, if the Mayor isn't being truthful about this particular promise (personally, I think he is trying to uphold that promise, but he is 1 person among the many) how many other things about MAPS 3 are questionable? Goes back to the "intent". I have seen some of the Council meetings were it came up and he does seem sincere. But again, the "intent" can easily change.

Larry OKC
06-17-2010, 03:33 AM
The taxes generated by the result of Maps III will also certainly increase as a result. But even the Maps money is not in hand to be used yet, but is accrued as it is collected in a pay as you go model.

That is true, but Mr. Prater (with Councilman Marrs and Mayor Cornett nodding in agreement) said that if MAPS 3 passed, the use tax would guarantee that no public safety layoffs etc would happen (no matter what happened with sales tax collections). Along with the other public safety promises made during the campaign mentioned by others.

It is also true that Mr. Prater is not a City official but neither the Mayor or the Councilman corrected him (again, you can see them nodding in agreement in the video clip).

And before someone goes, “they never said that”, here it is...

MAPS 3 could generate public safety money, Oklahoma City says | NewsOK.com (http://newsok.com/maps-3-could-generate-public-safety-money-city-says/article/3416820?custom_click=lead_story_title)


Cornett said if MAPS 3 passes, the city WILL give MAPS 3 use tax revenue to public safety. ... “The MAPS use tax can be used to help ensure that public safety remains a top priority. We will not have that option if MAPS 3 does not pass,” Cornett said.
...
Prater, a former police officer, said the use tax plan guarantees no police officers will lose their jobs in the next two years. He also said the plan convinced him to support MAPS 3.

“My concern all along, as far as about a year ago, was talking about increasing our public safety and I believe this proposal right now does exactly that,” Prater said.

At the 1:15 mark in the video clip, Mr. Prater states:

I believe that the proposal through the MAPS 3 use tax, has done exactly that. It assures us that through the rest of this fiscal year and next fiscal year we will see no cuts of police officers. Period. No matter what we experience in our sales tax revenue shortfalls. In addition to that, they have proposed to add an additional 20 officers through MAPS use tax and an additional 7 officers through cop grants. So we are looking at a swing, a possible swing, of 50 officers over the next couple of years.

rcjunkie
06-17-2010, 03:56 AM
Like I've stated over and over, I agree that the Mayor. Council and DA offered things that have yet to happen and probably never will, I don't agree with any cuts to Police or Fire, but I don't see what good it does to get your panties in a wad and constantly complain. If i were as unhappy about the situation as some, I would retire or resign and move on.

For years all departments have taken budget cuts (except Public Safety), now that the Mayor and Council have decided to include Public Safety in NECESSARY CUTS, they act as though the world is coming to an end.

Mesta Parker
06-17-2010, 06:07 AM
"Do more with less" has been a requirement in the business world for the past 20 years. About time government catches on!

Mikemarsh51
06-17-2010, 06:37 AM
Mesta Parker, you are so correct! The city is finally catching on to that. One minor detail. They collecting over 60 million a year in a special salex tax and general fund monies. They are doing less, yet still collecting the money as if they were doing more.

Don't pay any attention to RCJunkie, a fireman ran over his dog and a cop stole one of his girlfriends. He hates those guy's!

bombermwc
06-17-2010, 06:53 AM
Actually, I'm with RC. You guys keep pissing and moaning when you already actually have a pretty cushy deal. I liken you to the GM union. They priced themselves out of business in how many cities?

There are COUNTLESS municipal employees that are having to do with FAAAAAR less than police and fire get compared to what they used to get. You go find me a water worker that is on cloud 9 about his job. Guess what, with the "less", they still managed to create the best tasting water in America. Hmm.

And those 20 people in the entire department....not gonna make a difference bud. Make it 100, and you'll see a big change, but it's not as though OCFD is having a hard time filling shifts around town.

As Mesta said, it's been the motto for everyone else in every other non-government job for decades. I'd love to have actual retirement and not have to work until I fall over from a heart attack at 90, but that's not going to happen. Thanks to the baby boomers, not only will my generation NOT get jack crap from social security, but we also have to pick up the pieces from all the crap in the world that was caused by those same people. The older I get, the more benefits are removed from jobs so the employee gets less and less. why? So the stockholder can make more, put it into some lame derrivitive, and lose it along with everyone else's money and crash the economy.

Thanks, but I and everyone else, have much larger concerns than listening to the freaking OCFD bitch about not getting something a politician "promised". What a concept, a politician not following through. I never knew that happened. Mick must be the first one ever!!!

barnold
06-17-2010, 06:54 AM
RC,

Some choose to stand and fight for what is right, others choose to retire and hide at the lake behind a computer screen.

How would you know what is going on in the parks dept. and others? You posted that you hadn't talked with anyone in almost a year from there.

td25er
06-17-2010, 07:49 AM
RC,

Some choose to stand and fight for what is right, others choose to retire and hide at the lake behind a computer screen.

How would you know what is going on in the parks dept. and others? You posted that you hadn't talked with anyone in almost a year from there.

Life's not fair. You can either worry and b*tch your life away, or you can move past it and enjoy life.

OSUFan
06-17-2010, 08:02 AM
Not sure if I've ever seen a group more out of touch with average person in OKC.

Mikemarsh51
06-17-2010, 08:21 AM
Bombermwc, I am sorry you settled for a mediocre work career. Maybe you should take RCJunkies advice and seek something else. Maybe you could make your job something better. I started at $5.18 an hour. The lowest paid entry level job in the city. You could retire at 20 years but couldnt draw a retirement check until you were 55. It's ok to work to make your conditions better, that is not a crime. I don't think its ok to be happy with whatever is thrown to you for scraps.

Let me say that Public safety jobs are not the same as office jobs. Call it pay differential if you will but there should be better pay for jobs where you risk your life and people want to kill you. Ask some of these wives how much they miss their husbands that didnt come home.

OSUfan I really don't believe you know what your talking about. I live in the area I work and I see a pretty good cross section of people rich and poor. There are dirtbag apartments at one end and half milliion dollar homes at the other end and I am in touch.

If you want to blame us for speaking out, I'd say maybe your the kind that let yourselves get pushed around. Make us the bad guys that's ok too, your city officials will think your awesome!

metro
06-17-2010, 08:52 AM
FYI, they just started collecting MAPS3 tax last month, the Ford Center tax expired at the end of April.

Platemaker
06-17-2010, 09:00 AM
Ahh... you beat me to it, metro!

Mikemarsh51
06-17-2010, 09:04 AM
Which makes a great point! If that tax was just starting how do we know we need the police and firefighters to take pay cuts to hire more employees?

rcjunkie
06-17-2010, 09:07 AM
Which makes a great point! If that tax was just starting how do we know we need the police and firefighters to take pay cuts to hire more employees?

It's not just police and fire, it's ALL CITY EMPLOYEES, including management, but please don't let that be known to the rank and file, it's better to keep them in the dark.

OKCMallen
06-17-2010, 10:01 AM
I'm still unaware of any major fire/police protection problems?

Mikemarsh51
06-17-2010, 10:27 AM
Junkie, have you heard the mayor say all employees? I heard him say on KTOK that if he could get the concessions needed from police and fire everything would work out for the budget. He did not say what you are saying. I can only go by what he says.

Mikemarsh51
06-17-2010, 10:27 AM
OKCMallen, ever wonder why?

OSUFan
06-17-2010, 10:30 AM
Thanks for proving my point. I'm not saying you guys are wrong or that you shouldn't speak out. For some reason, you seem to take an us vs. the world approach that I don't think is working.

Wambo36
06-17-2010, 10:37 AM
Oh great, another thread with nothing but we need, we were promised, we don't have! WA WA WA WA WA.

For Gods sake, get a grip, stop bitching, be thankful you have a job and just do it. If your that unhappy retire/quit/move to Dallas or Kansas City and start a new life. Or better yet, move to Tenkiller with me, one can never have too many fishing buddies.

I still find it amusing that the only ones complaining are Police and Fire, I guess all other employees (Water, Streets, Parks, Animal Control, etc;) understand the financial and budget process, they know that in lean times you have to make do with less and are just happy to still be employed.


Funny you should mention it RC. According to a friend in public works, when the city manager came to address them about the budget, they were told not to ask any questions that could be construed as "tough" of the city manager so as to not be disrespectful. Guess who issued this edict? Not their boss or management(although thaty's where it likely started). Their UNION leader issued it. With that kind of pathetic representation it's hard for them to know anything about the city finances. The problem with all the depts. you listed is weak employee representation coupled with management who employ the "kiss a** uphill and shovel s**t downhill" style of doing things. But, what am I doing telling you this, you thrived in that system didn't you?

Mikemarsh51
06-17-2010, 10:49 AM
OSUfan, it's not us against the world! It's us against an administration hell bent on creating a downtown utopia at all costs! There are so many great areas in Oklahoma City, NW expressway, Memorial road, west I-240. All good areas that with a little investing of a park or something would privide alot for our city. Nope. We are going to squeeze every possible cent into downtown, to hell with the rest of it.

Platemaker
06-17-2010, 11:11 AM
Is that a joke Mike?? The I-240 or Memorial Road PARK?

OKCMallen
06-17-2010, 11:24 AM
OKCMallen, ever wonder why?

OK so my options are:

1. We have significant PD and FD problems that we should all be REALLY worried about...but we don't hear about them! Probably due to the complete incompetence of our media, or some clandestine cover-up scheme by the powers-that-be.

OR

2. We really don't have any major FD/PD problems that don't come with a down economy and no funding. No cover-up. No nefarious plan. But the PD/FD unions are crying about losing a few jobs.


I'm picking option 2.

proud2Bsooner
06-17-2010, 11:34 AM
OK so my options are:

1. We have significant PD and FD problems that we should all be REALLY worried about...but we don't hear about them! Probably due to the complete incompetence of our media, or some clandestine cover-up scheme by the powers-that-be.

OR

2. We really don't have any major FD/PD problems that don't come with a down economy and no funding. No cover-up. No nefarious plan. But the PD/FD unions are crying about losing a few jobs.


I'm picking option 2.

Clicking my "Like" button.

Unions hollaring...worsening their reputations that much more.

fuzzytoad
06-17-2010, 11:46 AM
I have an opinions about what's going on with the whole MAPS tax money that's been collected over the years, but I'd like to suppress my opinion for the moment and take the time to thank everyone in the FD/PD and other emergency services that helped during the flooding this week. Many people throughout this city appreciate everything you do in spite of the obvious manpower/equipment shortages regardless of who's at fault..

barnold
06-17-2010, 12:38 PM
Proud and OKCmallen,
We have been talking about the problems within the FD and PD for the past several years.....where have you been? Ladder trucks out of service, reduction of manpower, firehouses falling apart......any of this ring a bell? As to the biased media coverage, yes and yes. About the only place you get both sides of the story seems to be FOX.

It's not an us vs. the world sentiment....it is an us versus the city manager and at times the mayor. Why you would ask? 20 years of broken promises and back stabbing that the general public is unaware or uninterested in. That is until you need one of us. Then you will become the one that cries foul and starts to understand what we've been trying to educate everyone about. Your city leadership is saying we don't have enough money for essential city services but funneling money to other projects. It's like buying a Big Screen tv for your house but you can't afford to pay the electric.

Fuzzy-thank you. If we could only make everyone understand how understaffed and overwhelming a single incident like this can make emergency services.

okcsmokeandfire
06-17-2010, 12:44 PM
OK so my options are:

1. We have significant PD and FD problems that we should all be REALLY worried about...but we don't hear about them! Probably due to the complete incompetence of our media, or some clandestine cover-up scheme by the powers-that-be.

OR

2. We really don't have any major FD/PD problems that don't come with a down economy and no funding. No cover-up. No nefarious plan. But the PD/FD unions are crying about losing a few jobs.


I'm picking option 2.

I dont know how to tell you but the correct answer is option 1.

The problem is that we had a previous Fire Chief who would say anything to be promoted to Fire Chief. He convinced the city leaders that we could run our fire dept on a little as 600 members and they have bought into it, because it looks good on paper, but has absolutely no merit in reality.

The trouble is with this theory is that, that is not even near enough to maintain our current coverage with minimum staffing. This guy was nothing more than an administrator his entire career just as many of our city leaders are, completely out of touch with the reality that we face.

We try to explain the reality of what we do, only to be ridiculed as whinners and complainers by some on this forum. If we dont speak up for ourselves, who will? the city leaders, you guys on this forum. right, I wont hold my breath.

Other cities in our ten city avg are getting raises or staying flat and they dont have a dedicated 3/4 cent sales tax in place. We do have the dedicated sales tax for police/fire and are still cutting positions. None of these other cities are taking pay cuts or cutting positions. So what gives?
Austin and cities of the like are making it work. Even the small suburb cities like Moore, Norman and Midwest City have been hiring not cutting positions, plus they are making more money. Hmm, how is that happening, we are a Big League City. According the Mayor and cronies during the MAPS campaign, we will have the best equipped, best trained and best compensated fire and police depts in the region. Really? Their alzheimers must be kickin in, because that is not even close to what is going on.

If we are going to go down this road, lets go ahead and repeal the 3/4 cent sales tax and let the city start funding fire and police strictly from the general fund, like we used to do before 1989. Lets give the citizens a tax break. Lets see if the citizens will go for this. The citizens didnt pass this tax 20 years ago to have their police and fire protection services cut.

okcsmokeandfire
06-17-2010, 12:47 PM
Proud and OKCmallen,
We have been talking about the problems within the FD and PD for the past several years.....where have you been? Ladder trucks out of service, reduction of manpower, firehouses falling apart......any of this ring a bell? As to the biased media coverage, yes and yes. About the only place you get both sides of the story seems to be FOX.

It's not an us vs. the world sentiment....it is an us versus the city manager and at times the mayor. Why you would ask? 20 years of broken promises and back stabbing that the general public is unaware or uninterested in. That is until you need one of us. Then you will become the one that cries foul and starts to understand what we've been trying to educate everyone about. Your city leadership is saying we don't have enough money for essential city services but funneling money to other projects. It's like buying a Big Screen tv for your house but you can't afford to pay the electric.


Fuzzy-thank you. If we could only make everyone understand how understaffed and overwhelming a single incident like this can make emergency services.

Well said BA

Mikemarsh51
06-17-2010, 01:04 PM
Platemaker are you saying there can be no other developments besides downtown?

OKCMallen, get on your knees then slip your head back into the sand, never mind!

OKCMallen
06-17-2010, 02:13 PM
Platemaker are you saying there can be no other developments besides downtown?

OKCMallen, get on your knees then slip your head back into the sand, never mind!

Yeah, because you're the cognizant, intelligent one here, and the rest of us sheeple ignore the truth.


Look, you show me some major problems with police and fire response and efficacy, and I'm happy to get on the bandwagon. Hell, I am happy to agree to a penny sales tax that permanently adds to OKC PD and FD. Seriously, I truly am. I won't miss the money.

But what I won't do is believe one thing a union cries about (or any other entity that needs public funding) without some hard facts.

okcpulse
06-17-2010, 02:25 PM
okcpulse,

If the pay as you go program were true, then why was the city purchasing land for the core to shore in Nov. prior to the election?

Also, what sound logic comes from cutting positions from the general fund that you claim you don't have money for with the promise that they will hire 10 additional positions with Maps3 use tax. -29 now + 10 in 6 more months still leaves a deficit of -19 positions. Funny math. Don't think my accountant would go for it.

Core to Shore is separate from MAPS. I am having a hard time understanding why you guys keep correlating MAPS projects with your department's problems.

MAPS 3 Use tax cannot be used until construction companies start turning dirt, which is typically when the city collects the use tax.

I have said this time and time and time again, you guys need to scream for a PERMANENT funding source for the police department, and not throw fits about a temporary tax.

Think about it. A temporary sales tax for police and fire. Are you telling me you'd be willing to campaign EVERY time the tax is about to expire? With a permanent funding source, your problems are over.

barnold
06-17-2010, 03:21 PM
Okcpulse- we have a permanent funding source that was passed in 1989 that is commonly called the 3/4 cent sales tax. It was passed by the citizens of Okc after discussion very similar to the ones going on here on the gravesite of three firefighters. We are trying to prevent the same tragedy from happening again. If we do not learn from history then we are doomed to repeat the same mistakes.

Okcmallen- I'd be happy to start running down the list of problems for the past many years and not a single one of them would involve firefighter wages. Do you have a particular area you would like for me to begin or should I just choose one of the 30 or so hot topics?

Wambo36
06-17-2010, 04:28 PM
I have said this time and time and time again, you guys need to scream for a PERMANENT funding source for the police department, and not throw fits about a temporary tax.

Think about it. A temporary sales tax for police and fire. Are you telling me you'd be willing to campaign EVERY time the tax is about to expire? With a permanent funding source, your problems are over.

Pulse, you need to understand, this was not our proposal. This was something the mayor and his handlers came up with in the waning days of the MAPS3 campaign to try to garner votes. Why would he make this proposal? I have no idea. It's obvious the council wasn't behind it. They said so in an open council meeting. As a matter of record, some council members told the mayor to go see if the Chamber of Commerce would help him keep this promise. That tells me who the council thinks was behind this promise, made during the mad rush at the end of the campaign.

Our intention is to make sure that the tactics used aren't forgotten. It shows the character, or lack thereof, of the people involved. That some on this thread would dismiss it as "expected" in todays political arena is pretty sad.

As some have already pointed out, we've had a permanent funding source for over 20 years now. They have been failing to keep the promises made to get that tax passed for a long time now. Sadly, I guess people think that's business as usual too.

rcjunkie
06-17-2010, 04:41 PM
Junkie, have you heard the mayor say all employees? I heard him say on KTOK that if he could get the concessions needed from police and fire everything would work out for the budget. He did not say what you are saying. I can only go by what he says.

Absolutely, all employees are being asked to take said cuts, in addition, the cuts to departments other than Public Safety are much deeper.

rcjunkie
06-17-2010, 04:44 PM
Funny you should mention it RC. According to a friend in public works, when the city manager came to address them about the budget, they were told not to ask any questions that could be construed as "tough" of the city manager so as to not be disrespectful. Guess who issued this edict? Not their boss or management(although thaty's where it likely started). Their UNION leader issued it. With that kind of pathetic representation it's hard for them to know anything about the city finances. The problem with all the depts. you listed is weak employee representation coupled with management who employ the "kiss a** uphill and shovel s**t downhill" style of doing things. But, what am I doing telling you this, you thrived in that system didn't you?

Damn right I thrived Skippy, with hard work, dedication, college degree, you would be surprised how far one can go, and unlike you, I did it without moaning, griping, bitching, complaining.

rcjunkie
06-17-2010, 04:47 PM
OSUfan, it's not us against the world! It's us against an administration hell bent on creating a downtown utopia at all costs! There are so many great areas in Oklahoma City, NW expressway, Memorial road, west I-240. All good areas that with a little investing of a park or something would privide alot for our city. Nope. We are going to squeeze every possible cent into downtown, to hell with the rest of it.

You do know that in the past 4-5 years OKC has built/developed two large regional parks, one on the far S. side of OKC and the other on the far W. side of OKC. Do you have any more poor examples.

rcjunkie
06-17-2010, 04:49 PM
OK so my options are:

1. We have significant PD and FD problems that we should all be REALLY worried about...but we don't hear about them! Probably due to the complete incompetence of our media, or some clandestine cover-up scheme by the powers-that-be.

OR

2. We really don't have any major FD/PD problems that don't come with a down economy and no funding. No cover-up. No nefarious plan. But the PD/FD unions are crying about losing a few jobs.


I'm picking option 2.

DING DING, We have a winner, not to mention the sour grapes over the passing of MAPS3.

OKCMallen
06-17-2010, 05:03 PM
Okcpulse- we have a permanent funding source that was passed in 1989 that is commonly called the 3/4 cent sales tax. It was passed by the citizens of Okc after discussion very similar to the ones going on here on the gravesite of three firefighters. We are trying to prevent the same tragedy from happening again. If we do not learn from history then we are doomed to repeat the same mistakes.

Okcmallen- I'd be happy to start running down the list of problems for the past many years and not a single one of them would involve firefighter wages. Do you have a particular area you would like for me to begin or should I just choose one of the 30 or so hot topics?

I want proof of unreasonable failings and shortcomings that are systemic in nature. And not anecdotal from you.

Until then, the "we need more money" thing just doesn't hold water.

Wambo36
06-17-2010, 05:21 PM
Damn right I thrived Skippy, with hard work, dedication, college degree, you would be surprised how far one can go, and unlike you, I did it without moaning, griping, bitching, complaining.

Couple all that with a keen adeptness at the aforementioned uphill-downhill management style and I'll bet you were unstoppable. Skippy

rcjunkie
06-17-2010, 05:23 PM
Couple all that with a keen adeptness at the aforementioned uphill-downhill management style and I'll bet you were unstoppable. Skippy

Couldn't stop me with a Mack truck, or better yet, a ladder truck (too bad you guys can't take better care of them and keep them running)

Spartan
06-17-2010, 05:25 PM
I see the insult crowd is back.

rcjunkie
06-17-2010, 05:27 PM
I see the insult crowd is back.

Had to return, logic, common sense and basic math did nothing.

andy157
06-17-2010, 05:54 PM
Actually, I'm with RC. You guys keep pissing and moaning when you already actually have a pretty cushy deal. I liken you to the GM union. They priced themselves out of business in how many cities?

There are COUNTLESS municipal employees that are having to do with FAAAAAR less than police and fire get compared to what they used to get. You go find me a water worker that is on cloud 9 about his job. Guess what, with the "less", they still managed to create the best tasting water in America. Hmm.

And those 20 people in the entire department....not gonna make a difference bud. Make it 100, and you'll see a big change, but it's not as though OCFD is having a hard time filling shifts around town.

As Mesta said, it's been the motto for everyone else in every other non-government job for decades. I'd love to have actual retirement and not have to work until I fall over from a heart attack at 90, but that's not going to happen. Thanks to the baby boomers, not only will my generation NOT get jack crap from social security, but we also have to pick up the pieces from all the crap in the world that was caused by those same people. The older I get, the more benefits are removed from jobs so the employee gets less and less. why? So the stockholder can make more, put it into some lame derrivitive, and lose it along with everyone else's money and crash the economy.

Thanks, but I and everyone else, have much larger concerns than listening to the freaking OCFD bitch about not getting something a politician "promised". What a concept, a politician not following through. I never knew that happened. Mick must be the first one ever!!!You really don't get it, do you.

andy157
06-17-2010, 06:03 PM
"Do more with less" has been a requirement in the business world for the past 20 years. About time government catches on!OK I'm fine with that, but if that's the case then the City needs to discontinue collecting the special tax. Why should they be able to take our tax dollars that are mandated to provide certain things, yet not do them?

barnold
06-17-2010, 06:05 PM
OKCmallen,

But I love anecdotes! Like this one.......I'm a big redhawks fan and love going to the games. They've had some downturn in revenues these past couple of years due to the economy. They had kept their players salaries pretty flat (minus some of the big draft deals to go to the BIGS). They did not ask their players to show up and play the same game with 6 or 7 players, yet that is that same thing the city has asked of the FD, PD and (this ones for your RC) all other city departments except management. The number of games we all play have increased and so has the length of the season, but now they would like for us to take a pay cut.

Now that i've thrown that one out there for you I'll start in on just the facts. But it will have to wait until tomm. since I'm taking all the kids to a drive in movie in Guthrie tonight. Enjoy the beautiful evening all......even you old, bitter and forgotten RC.

andy157
06-17-2010, 06:08 PM
Not sure if I've ever seen a group more out of touch with average person in OKC.I've never seen so many people that don't get it. Maybe you do, and don't mind paying for something and not getting it.

andy157
06-17-2010, 06:11 PM
FYI, they just started collecting MAPS3 tax last month, the Ford Center tax expired at the end of April.And your point is?

Wambo36
06-17-2010, 06:21 PM
I see the insult crowd is back.

Just because we're having a serious discussion doesn't mean we can't have a little fun, does it? RC comes on here throwng bombs and then refuses to participate in any back and forth questions and answers. I keep asking him questions but honestly have given up on getting any answers that don't sound like he's channeling Larry the Cable Guy. GITT'ER DONE!!! Or maybe it's Jack Nicholson in a Few Good Men-"YOU CAN'T HANDLE THE TRUTH"!!! Either way, his dismissive attitude along with having no responses for the points(?) he lays out makes him an easy target. Sorry if this bugs you.

andy157
06-17-2010, 06:21 PM
Yeah, because you're the cognizant, intelligent one here, and the rest of us sheeple ignore the truth.


Look, you show me some major problems with police and fire response and efficacy, and I'm happy to get on the bandwagon. Hell, I am happy to agree to a penny sales tax that permanently adds to OKC PD and FD. Seriously, I truly am. I won't miss the money.

But what I won't do is believe one thing a union cries about (or any other entity that needs public funding) without some hard facts.3/4 of a cent is more than enough to do what it was intended to do. So why would you want to give them more?