Phoenix and Oklahoma City

I’m fresh off of a visit to downtown Phoenix for a convention and was surprised at how much it seems like Oklahoma City can learn from what is going on there.

Size

Phoenix itself has just over 1.5 million people, with a metro area population over 4 million. Oklahoma City has just over a third of the population of Phoenix, both within city limits and in the metropolitan area. Both cities are spread out over several hundred miles and are not densely populated.

Public Transportation

Phoenix just completed a 20 mile light rail project just over 18 months ago, running in essentially an L-shape beginning in the north central part of the city with much of the inner city wealth is concentrated, running through downtown and convention/baseball/arena district and then eastward towards the airport, through the city of Tempe (where ASU is and additional business areas are) and ending in the city of Mesa. (More info: Valley Metro | Welcome (http://www.valleymetro.org))

The development along the Valley Metro Light Rail has been mixed. Along the Midtown district, a well-established center of business (Central Avenue Corridor - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Midtown,_Phoenix,_Arizona)), additional urban apartments and condominiums are being built right off of the Metro. There is also similar development going on near Arizona State University and other areas of Tempe. However, development in and around downtown continues to remain fairly inexistent. There is a two or three mile stretch directly east of downtown that couldn’t help but remind me of East Reno in Oklahoma City just east of I-235. Sadly, this is the stretch all visitors see going from the Airport to Downtown Phoenix.

Downtown

Phoenix’s downtown is anything but vibrant. Despite having a beautiful Top 20 convention center in the middle of downtown (Phoenix Convention Center - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phoenix_Convention_Center)) and two of the nicest sporting venues (Chase Field and the US Airways Center), Oklahoma City’s downtown far exceeds Phoenix. The tallest building is just 483 feet tall and there are only two total buildings over 400 feet tall. The shopping downtown is inexistent with a few tourist shops, a Hard Rock Café, and a New York and Company being the only real shopping (and that is a stretch). There are only a few restaurants in the area and they are spread out throughout the area. There has been one development called the Arizona Center, which is right by the convention center, but it is about a third vacant.

What amazed me the most about Downtown Phoenix is that there is little foot traffic. While the temperature is naturally a deterrent, one would still expect a decent number of people out, particularly on a baseball night. However, this was simply not the case. There seemed to be much more foot traffic at lunch time than at any time in the evening.

Worst yet, while driving around the downtown area, there was an incredibly large amount of vacant space, a far greater amount of empty land as compared to downtown or midtown OKC.

The Metro

While Downtown is surprisingly lackluster, Phoenix has several redeeming qualities and competition to inner city development. There is the famously wealthy Scottsdale along with Tempe, Mesa, and several other cities with over 100,000 people providing many different living opportunities. Overall, I was shocked to see how far advanced OKC was compared to the fifth largest city in the country.

I remember going to the Fiesta Bowl a few years back. I'd never really spent time in downtown Phoenix, so thought it would be fun to stay there instead of Scottsdale. I had my pre-teen son with me at the time, and we went a few days early to spend some time in the "big city". When I got to the hotel, I asked for a list of downtown restaurants and, at the time there were 5 on the list. There was a basically empty small shopping mall nearby as well. I'd arrived without a car, thinking we'd use taxis or walk most places and we found that to go to where there were concentrations of restaurants, etc, the taxi was incredibly expensive, as everything was so far away. There was no public transit at the time. It was a very disappointing trip, and the next time we went to a game we stayed in Scottsdale. I have no interest in another trip to Phoenix, unless I have a reason to go there.

Interesting write up. I went to Phoenix last fall (a good college friend lives there), and sad to say I was a bit underwhelmed. The city was built with one goal in mind: to be a beacon for those desiring cheap real estate and nice weather. That's nice and all, but the city really doesn't have much of a "soul" save some areas around the Scottsdale/Biltmore area. Instead its this strange mix of midwest sunbirds, don't-tread-on-me southwesterners, and California equity refugees. None of those subgroups strike me as groups that care for vibrant urban areas.

As betts was saying, I know a lot of people who have been there for the Fiesta Bowls and they all came back with blah reviews. The stadium is way out in Glendale, essentially the beginning of the desert, and it was really hard to go out and see the town without being stuck on the freeway. It seems the city missed the boat on that. A huge stadium in a climate that screams Super Bowl would have been an instant boost to downtown.

The time I was there it seemed there was more foot traffic in the downtown area. It probably was thin crowds just because it is starting to hot there. From what I saw of the light rail (it had just opened when I got there) looks great. OKC should definitely take some notes. Also, there are many neat little districts out in the suburbs, like Scottsdale and the area around ASU in Tempe. Plus, they have In-and-Out Burger (yay!) On the other hand the place's economy is in the absolute toilet, and I really question the decision to build a city of 4 million in the middle of a desert with green yards everywhere. The funny thing is, I could probably find a post or 2 on here in which someone said OKC should strive and grow like Phoenix. Yikes, I would prefer not!

I certainly hope we can learn from Phoenix...but in the right way. OKC does not need to become any more over-developed and over-suburbanized than it is now...but I think we are certainly improving.

And hopefully we won't do anything to drive away our Hispanic population, either.

interesting enough, both phoenix and okc almost have the exact same highway layout. I-10 cuts thru their city from east to west which mirrors what I-40 does. they have a loop called 101, which wraps around the western side of their city from I-10, and goes up north carrying on eastward to Scottsdale..this would be like what the Kilpatrick does from around I-40 & Sara Rd up and over north along Memorial Rd, etc.

loop 202 is like I-240, their southern bypass.

squaw valley hwy 51 is much like our centennial hwy, cuts thru the city north and south.



I-17 cuts north and south like what I-35 does.

their hwy 93 is like our hwy 3 (aka northwest expressway), theres cuts thru the west valley: sun city, sun city west, el mirage, surprise, glendale.

And hopefully we won't do anything to drive away our Hispanic population, either.

Don't you mean "drive away the illegal immigration"?

I'm OKC born and raised, but I've lived in Phoenix for the last 26 years. I've seen the enormous growth of the Valley and the huge developments that seemed to have sprung up overnight. (Disclaimer) I worked for several developers during the time I've been here. Some subdivisions just make you shake your head and wonder what the heck they were thinking. The sustainability of these communities was always suspect.

At one time, the City of Phoenix had an urban development mandate to create Core zones of mixed use ''Pods'' that would create a more localized environment for housing and retail. That went out the window with these huge monstrosities in the middle of nowhere. It also created a Los Angeles type nightmare commute that chokes the highways night and day.

As for Light Rail, think twice, OKC. Aside from all traffic sitting at a red light while the train approaches, crosses the intersection, and goes merrily on its way, there are confusing crossover spots where cars and trains often ''get acquainted''. Also, the great planning minds of LR forgot to include public restroom facilities along the entire route. Add to that, the kiosks that passengers have to wait are glorified bus stops open to the elements. I don't think too many people will want to wait for a ride when Ok. is having one of its winter tantrums.

All that said, I visit OKC 3 times a year and am always impressed by the genuine down-home niceness of the people. If I could find a job, I'd move back in a heartbeat. You're doing it right with your planning, just don't go hog-wild and get into that Field of Dreams mindset. Development should cater to the needs of the people who sustain it and not rely on a hope that others might visit.

You're doing it right with your planning, just don't go hog-wild and get into that Field of Dreams mindset. Development should cater to the needs of the people who sustain it and not rely on a hope that others might visit.

Well-said. You nailed plenty of people on this board.

You nailed plenty of people on this board.

:LolLolLol

He hasn't nailed me. I don't swing that way....not that there is anything wrong with that...

he hasn't nailed me. I don't swing that way....not that there is anything wrong with that...

ditto

Phoenix is a good example of what not to do, imo. There's really just nothing to it.


Development should cater to the needs of the people who sustain it and not rely on a hope that others might visit.

Well, I for one want way more people to visit and when they do, I want them to see a vibrant community with a good city center. This is how you leave good impressions and this is how you get people and businesses to move here. If they have no reason to visit, there's no chance of that. Not to mention, when they visit they bring money into the community.

Growth is the only way to maintain a successful economy and create a community with an increasing standard of living with more amenities. There is definitively a lot of votes for stagnation in this market, but it's not really what I prefer and so i must be one that got "nailed" by the comment.

Agreed, although Scottsdale is very nice.

Our growth is a tier above moderate and we should keep in that way to allow for more carefully planned growth.

Here's an aerial pano of everything in Phoenix. Let me know if anyone sees anything worthwhile in any of this:

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/1/14/Downtown_PHX_Panorama.jpg

I'm not sure that an OKC pano would look any better, or even as good.

WelcomeToBricktown.com | Virtual Tour (http://www.welcometobricktown.com/map/360_views/Skyview/westaerial/index.html)
WelcomeToBricktown.com | Virtual Tour (http://www.welcometobricktown.com/map/360_views/Skyview/eastaerial/index.html)
NewSpin360.com | Virtual Tour (http://www.insideoklahoma.com/virtualtours/website/chasetower/)

Take your choice of panorams.... you tell me.

Alright, you know that's not the same. Those aren't even aerial panos.. My point remains that OKC and Phoenix are the same in terms of urban progress. They have LRT up and running..like 20+ miles of it, right up Central Avenue or whatever. They've seen TONS of condo and mixed-use development along there, it's transformed Phoenix.

Spartan. If your point is that the 5th largest city in the nation has only the same urban progress as Oklahoma City, then obviously your opinion concurs with the rest of us.

Spartan, just curious if you've been to Phoenix? The only thing worthwhile is the shopping in Scottsdale and hiking in the "mountains" and outdoors type activities like hiking or mountain biking.

Spartan. If your point is that the 5th largest city in the nation has only the same urban progress as Oklahoma City, then obviously your opinion concurs with the rest of us.

Salient point, A2010. I was just trying to offer a different opinion of Phoenix. Obviously you ask anyone and the overwhelming consensus on Phoenix is going to be very negative..especially with Sooner fans.

Metro, spent some time in their wonderful airport (not). Never actually been to Phoenix. It's been a case study example in virtually all of my urban planning-related classes I've had to take (environmental design major). I had one class where we extensively looked at the ability to convert unsustainable cities into sustainable ones, which Phoenix has become a relatively good example of.

Where to start...
The light rail has a passenger use of our bus system. I suppose it would be a good gig to sit at the helm of an empty train, but only for those who like to talk to themselves. The most people I've ever seen on a train is about 20. The cost per mile of track, maintenance, and operating costs will never achieve a return on the investment. The whole project was an exercise in ego-driven envy of other city's failed mass-trans ideas. The condos being built are, at least, a 30 minute jog to get to a stop. ''Sure, I live downtown, and my job is 12 blocks from the LR, but I need two cars at each location.'' OKC, like Phx, is too spread out to make any sense of this expenditure other than providing a cute elevated monorail at a never-ending World's Fair.

(not that there's anything wrong with fairs)

My previous post was merely to inform the illustrious city planners to consider the needs of the populace and weigh the costs of improvements as they apply to potential profits. For those still stuck on the Field of Dreams, imagine, you want to throw a big party, but your backyard is a mess. To do it up right, you put in a pool, a gazebo bar, a waterfall, some trees, nice lighting, etc. By the time you spent all that money, the big day arrives but only half the people show up...and you're still on the hook for the caterer. Sure, you've got a great backyard now, but nobody ever uses it.

Trying to emulate what others have done (in order to keep up with the Seattles and the Phoenixes) doesn't make economic sense.

That said, I love being down in Bricktown! I'm not sure I'd want a boat ride on the river, but a bit more development might help. Midtown is trying to make a comeback and some city tax incentives could help. Please don't tear down any more historic buildings! That's what I love about OKC. In Phoenix, all we have is The Orpheum Theater...sticks out like a sore thumb now amidst the glass and steel. There are some talented architects in Ok. who can renovate old buildings to accommodate new uses without jeopardizing the original aesthetics...Bricktown, for example. And finally, someone needs to save Moon Jr. High. That's an Art Deco gem.

Salient point, A2010. I was just trying to offer a different opinion of Phoenix. Obviously you ask anyone and the overwhelming consensus on Phoenix is going to be very negative..especially with Sooner fans.

Metro, spent some time in their wonderful airport (not). Never actually been to Phoenix. It's been a case study example in virtually all of my urban planning-related classes I've had to take (environmental design major). I had one class where we extensively looked at the ability to convert unsustainable cities into sustainable ones, which Phoenix has become a relatively good example of.

Phoenix is far from a sustainable city, they get most of their water from Colorado. What happens if Colorado decides to stop the flow? How sustainable is a city of almost 5 million people in the desert?

I think he meant they are an example of NOT being sustainable.


rocket, I'm not sure how familiar you are with OKC's mass-trans plan, but it does not include Light Rail. We are doing a Modern Streetcar modeled after Portland, OR. It will serve tourists, downtown/midtown/OUHSC workers, and residents in that area. Phoenix's LR which by your accounts sounds like a failure, is more long-distance commuter-driven from what it sounds. Although OKC plans commuter rail in the longer term, the initial phase is more central to an urbanized area.


The city was built with one goal in mind: to be a beacon for those desiring cheap real estate and nice weather.

Nice weather my butt! No thanks. Not criticizing you, but the idea that Phoenix has pleasant weather ;)

In fairness, it's personal opinion really. I'd take Phoenix's weather year round over OKC's. I'd rather have hotter temps with dry weather than hot and HUMID summers here. I also think he has a point in that Phoenix was a city that exploded because of snowbirds retiring in a warm place and people with allergies and asthma that don't want to deal with all the stuff we have to deal with here and almost everywhere else. My asthma is MUCH better when I'm in Phoenix or Vegas.

In fairness, it's personal opinion really. I'd take Phoenix's weather year round over OKC's. I'd rather have hotter temps with dry weather than hot and HUMID summers here.

OKC may be humid, but we've got nothing on Atlanta...or Houston, San Antonio, Birmingham...really any place in the South. It gets ridiculous, especially in Georgia.

Hey, if this PAC 10 thing goes through, you may have a lot more reason to go to Phoenix.

OKC may be humid, but we've got nothing on Atlanta...or Houston, San Antonio, Birmingham...really any place in the South. It gets ridiculous, especially in Georgia.

I know, I used to live there (Georgia).

JBrown84, I might stand corrected, but your comment: ''Although OKC plans commuter rail in the longer term, the initial phase is more central to an urbanized area.'' tells me another story. I'm saying that our initial phase is a colossal failure. The Phx Light Rail was billed as the panacea for urban congestion. The net effect has been negligible (and perhaps detrimental) to its goal.

If you guys bring back the trolleys for downtown, that's fine. We've got those too. We've got three wheeled pedicycles, and bums offering piggyback rides...I digress. It all comes down to Cost vs Use. If you can't make the numbers work to break even, you end up with tax payers giving those piggyback rides.

As for weather, Phoenix is THE place to live (in the winter). During Spring, the pollen count is so high some can't stand to be here. Of course, our Spring only lasts about two weeks and then we're in 100 degree weather until Fall (which starts sometime around November). I guess wherever you live, the weather sucks some of the time, but when I go back to Oklahoma and sit on the back porch on a cool June evening and see fireflies in the trees and hear the whistle of the train passing by, get hit by the scent of the damp soil growing all that foliage, I'm just a tad envious of your location. Thanks for allowing me to post.

OK has periods of really nice weather during every season. There is also awful weather: extreme heat/humidity and extreme cold/snow/ice. Some people hate the constant changing weather, I personally love it. I hate our hot summers though and try to escape as much as I can (I'm in San Francisco right now).

I guess wherever you live, the weather sucks some of the time, but when I go back to Oklahoma and sit on the back porch on a cool June evening and see fireflies in the trees and hear the whistle of the train passing by, get hit by the scent of the damp soil growing all that foliage, I'm just a tad envious of your location. Thanks for allowing me to post.

"Cool June evening"!?!?!?!

"Cool June evening"!?!?!?!

Where I live, June evenings can be in the low 90's...but it's a dry warmth. :)

I guess I've never thought Oklahoma as humid. I've been to REAL humid places enough that I don't even notice it here. But I can't stand the Phoenix heat...