View Full Version : Why no retail in Bricktown?



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z28james
06-06-2010, 09:04 AM
I lived here for years and still cant understand why there is no retail in brick town. I know there are some like Lit, candy, etc. and bass pro, but no other chains or even larger local retailers. Is is because of low foot traffic or do the owners want to much for the leases?

Steve
06-06-2010, 09:21 AM
LIT actually closed. But there is an influx of retail coming soon with the marketplace.

Rover
06-06-2010, 10:21 AM
Because it has been positioned as an "entertainment" district. To reposition it will take promotion over time. Most small retailers can't afford to reposition the area in the public's mind, and the Bricktown Assn. hasn't been willing to develop a clear position within the public. It takes investment and vision to do that and they have been willing to let the public decide...so they do based on their own experiences. Since the restaurants are what the destination is, that's what they currently think.

Strong leadership and vision is what is needed....plus cooperation and commitment.

Spartan
06-06-2010, 01:08 PM
Rover, I think this is proof that you aren't the anonymous big player you like us to think you are, especially as you attack other leadership that generally everyone else recognizes as being a vital component of Bricktown's recent success. Bricktown has had excellent leadership over the last two years or so under Jim Cowan who has done a ton for the district. I used to be able to walk through Bricktown and literally see nobody there if it wasn't a Friday evening, but that's not the case anymore. All day long the district is busy, full of people. I get the real sense that Bricktown is slowly maturing before our eyes, and we knew it would do that or die. I think it's going to make it, rather than what happened to the West End (which is seeing a rebirth, however).

Retail is a matter of supporting what we got. I was in the Red Dirt Emporium yesterday and it was packed. Bought some jam. The marketplace will also be packed I imagine..those guys know what they're doing. Walked down to the Bricktown Candy Co and they were also doing good business, and I was impressed with their collection of soda pops and got some Sioux City Birch Beer. I was disappointed they didn't have Leninade but I've only been able to find that at Pops. There is retail in Bricktown and it's doing well, and keep in mind this was all on a Saturday around 2 pm.

I do think we need to get some national brands in Bricktown just for the purpose of reinforcing the retail offerings. If a GAP, a Walgreens, and Apple Store came in (your typical downtown retail staples) I think it would be a major benefit to the local business owners. In order for this to happen I think some developer is going to have to be brave enough to make a retail destination happen (and that's difficult to come across because Bricktown brings out the shortsightedness and greediness in everyone involved it seems). It's not going to come about as a part of some marketing campaign or anything like that. The Bricktown Association can only make so much happen.

kevinpate
06-06-2010, 01:26 PM
Oddly enough, there are large numbers who appear to find shopping entertaining. I'm not one of them, but I see them out and about frequently enough. With all that empty space, it's a shame more retailers and bldg. owners can't find a way to make it work for both.

betts
06-06-2010, 02:43 PM
I think we would need to have an area where retail could be concentrated, and then it would have to be marketed as such. We don't have enough visitors to support significant retail stores in downtown OKC. The majority of people in Bricktown currently are there at night, especially on weekends. So, you would need to appeal to drive-up visitors from around the city and/or state. We don't yet have a streetcar to get people around downtown easily, and most shoppers like to move easily from shop to shop, hence the popularity of shopping centers. I'm simply not sure where in Bricktown we have enough open space to allow multiple retailers to cluster. Perhaps back on Main Street where there's also more easily accessible parking would be a good location. But again, the people who own those unrenovated buildings would have to work together and market them to retailers. It could work, but it would take vision on their part.

Barring that, I actually think the best idea is to puchase land in Core to Shore and build a lifestyle center, if you could locate it close to a proposed streetcar line.

Spartan
06-06-2010, 02:47 PM
What about the Bricktown Events Center parking lot and the former Steel Yards project? I see a lot of room for expansion there. It is unfortunate how Lower Bricktown has failed, and now we're seeing LiT and Firefly's spot being filled with more restaurants..more of the same.

betts
06-06-2010, 02:53 PM
What about the Bricktown Events Center parking lot and the former Steel Yards project? I see a lot of room for expansion there. It is unfortunate how Lower Bricktown has failed, and now we're seeing LiT and Firefly's spot being filled with more restaurants..more of the same.

That would definitely work if you wanted new construction. There's plenty of room for an outdoor shopping center at the Steelyards. But, if you couldn't get a developer to spring for a shopping center downtown, I do think you might be able to make a little shopping area on main for local retailers that would be appealing to shoppers. As I said, though, you'd have to market it simultaneously to multiple retailers to get it to fly. One store way back there would die on the vine, but if you had a bunch, especially with a store with big appeal like an Urban Outfitters, it could be very appealing. Lit and Fireflys problems were similar......not enough contiguous shopping to make it a destination for shoppers.

okyeah
06-06-2010, 03:56 PM
I didn't know Firefly closed...Is Envy Collections still open?

Spartan
06-06-2010, 04:14 PM
Yes, and may move across the tracks..maybe.

Rover
06-06-2010, 06:55 PM
LOL. I never have claimed to be an anonymous big player. Just have the experience I have...that is all. Don't know if that is big or small, smart or dumb. I, like everyone elso on this board am just stating opinions which might cause someone to think and hopefully help make the process better for all of OKC. For referrence, I spent 10 years as a retail marketing consultant and supplier of services. I have spent 20 years in supplying core products to commercial contractors world-wide. I have been involved in 100's of major projects including many of the largest in the world. However, I am not an urban planner, an architect or an engineer.

I certainly didn't intend to disrespect Cowan or anyone else. But other than Bass Pro, the area hasn't seemed to promote or encourage retail, and even that was criticized by many. The public seems to perceive the area as an entertainment area (lots of bars and restaurant) and not as a retail area. Bass is a very targeted retail which is almost a destination in and of itself and many go their as "entertainment. There are no department stores, specialty stores, etc. needed to draw general shoppers. The smaller retailers are scattered and can't draw any synergy from each other. I don't think the building owners have understood what retailers want or need. (No disrespect, I just think they are restauranteurs and property owners and not retail oriented).

The real opportunity for retail was the development east of the ballpark that Funk wanted to do. It actually could have worked as a quasi-urban center with retail and residential. It would have enabled window-shopping and drawn people down with the express interest of shopping. You'd be amazed at what a couple of stores like Tommy Bahama's, Sur La Table, etc. would do to draw people and to re-position the area as a shopping area AND entertainment district.

Spartan
06-06-2010, 07:07 PM
Alright Rover, I'll withdraw my criticism of you and we'll just agree to disagree on the effectiveness of Bricktown leadership. I definitely agree with you on Funk's Bricktown Village proposal. Unfortunately Mayor Mick killed that politically. Bob Funk is (well, used to be) someone who made things happen, usually. He no longer has the resources he did at the time of his Bricktown proposal due to his divorce, so that's a lost opportunity. It will be interesting to see if anyone else will step up to the plate and offer to make some kind of destination happen. I hope the city doesn't kill it again..

betts
06-06-2010, 07:27 PM
I definitely agree with you on Funk's Bricktown Village proposal. Unfortunately Mayor Mick killed that politically. Bob Funk is (well, used to be) someone who made things happen, usually. He no longer has the resources he did at the time of his Bricktown proposal due to his divorce, so that's a lost opportunity..

So does anyone really know why the mayor and/or others were so opposed to this concept? I thought maybe there was a plan for that site that would be revealed in MAPS3 but obviously not. Of course Funk's plan might have been one of those grand plans that was not to be and we would have been disapponted again.

Spartan
06-06-2010, 07:31 PM
No, City Hall is still burned over a deal he cut with the RedHawks (I think on the lease of the Brick, but I could be wrong) and Bob Funk was once popular among city leaders but since being real involved with the Chamber has fallen from grace, so to speak. Funk's reputation has sort of been..in a funk. Mayor Mick could care less about Bricktown unless a pariah he dislikes is about to have a project that will likely be successful. The project wouldn't have happened anyway because Funk was cheating on his wife who would have found out eventually, and he would have lost all his resources not long after breaking ground but nonetheless, that doesn't excuse the part City Hall played in making sure that land remains parking forever.

edit: Apparently it was actually the Blazers lease. Thanks to the person who corrected me.

Kerry
06-06-2010, 09:35 PM
The main problem with Bricktown as a shopping distirct is this - there are too many owners. Imagine if each store space in Penn Square Mall was owned by a different person. It would be a total disaster. You would have people trying to lure luxury retailers, some people opening 3rd party booths, and others keeping their space vacant while they try holding out for a higher selling price.

The only way Bricktown is going to work as a shopping district is if every owner turns their operation over to single company that can market the entire district to create destination retail. Otherwise, it is going to take 5,000 to 10,000 people living in Bricktown to keep retail going.

Rover
06-06-2010, 10:14 PM
I agree. There are too many interests and most appear to be sitting back to maximize their own situation. There appears to be no concerted effort to create a shopping area. It appears that it is just owners waiting to lease to the first restaurant that will locate in their building and hope they can rent the rest. There has been no adaptation of buildings to make street level window shopping. For instance, even the shop at the Centenial (LIT) was set back so far from the street there was no visibility and no interest. Along the main streets in Bricktown there are no retail shops or windows showing merchandise. If you want it to be a shopping district then it needs to adapt and not try to force retail into strange areas.

And so Spartan, if there has been this concerted effort and it has failed, please update me.

ljbab728
06-06-2010, 11:33 PM
Rover, I think this is proof that you aren't the anonymous big player you like us to think you are, especially as you attack other leadership that generally everyone else recognizes as being a vital component of Bricktown's recent success. Bricktown has had excellent leadership over the last two years or so under Jim Cowan who has done a ton for the district. I used to be able to walk through Bricktown and literally see nobody there if it wasn't a Friday evening, but that's not the case anymore. All day long the district is busy, full of people. I get the real sense that Bricktown is slowly maturing before our eyes, and we knew it would do that or die. I think it's going to make it, rather than what happened to the West End (which is seeing a rebirth, however).

Retail is a matter of supporting what we got. I was in the Red Dirt Emporium yesterday and it was packed. Bought some jam. The marketplace will also be packed I imagine..those guys know what they're doing. Walked down to the Bricktown Candy Co and they were also doing good business, and I was impressed with their collection of soda pops and got some Sioux City Birch Beer. I was disappointed they didn't have Leninade but I've only been able to find that at Pops. There is retail in Bricktown and it's doing well, and keep in mind this was all on a Saturday around 2 pm.

I do think we need to get some national brands in Bricktown just for the purpose of reinforcing the retail offerings. If a GAP, a Walgreens, and Apple Store came in (your typical downtown retail staples) I think it would be a major benefit to the local business owners. In order for this to happen I think some developer is going to have to be brave enough to make a retail destination happen (and that's difficult to come across because Bricktown brings out the shortsightedness and greediness in everyone involved it seems). It's not going to come about as a part of some marketing campaign or anything like that. The Bricktown Association can only make so much happen.

Be careful, Spartan, you're going to lose your negativity reputation.

Spartan
06-07-2010, 12:37 AM
I agree. There are too many interests and most appear to be sitting back to maximize their own situation. There appears to be no concerted effort to create a shopping area. It appears that it is just owners waiting to lease to the first restaurant that will locate in their building and hope they can rent the rest. There has been no adaptation of buildings to make street level window shopping. For instance, even the shop at the Centenial (LIT) was set back so far from the street there was no visibility and no interest. Along the main streets in Bricktown there are no retail shops or windows showing merchandise. If you want it to be a shopping district then it needs to adapt and not try to force retail into strange areas.

And so Spartan, if there has been this concerted effort and it has failed, please update me.

Interesting point about the setback for Lower Bricktown properties directly on Reno.

As for any concerted retail effort there is no comprehensive downtown retail strategy that has been released. I just got finished writing out a long-winded report of recommendations made in a 2003 Strategic Action Plan that were never implemented.. in numerous different places it suggests retail-specific downtown masterplans, a comprehensive retail strategy, etc. No such efforts have been made.

The action plan is here: http://www.okc.gov/planning/downtown/downtown2010.pdf
The blog post is here: A Downtown ontheRange: In the year 2010.. (http://downtownontherange.blogspot.com/2010/06/in-year-2010.html)

betts
06-07-2010, 05:14 AM
Great blog. Lots of food for thought there. This really stuck out for me:

So what more can we do to make developers more successful (basically do their job for them)? And yes, the city does sometimes need to do what developers should do already, just because we need them to be successful for downtown to be successful, as hard as it may be to make some of these people successful.

metro
06-07-2010, 07:57 AM
So does anyone really know why the mayor and/or others were so opposed to this concept? I thought maybe there was a plan for that site that would be revealed in MAPS3 but obviously not. Of course Funk's plan might have been one of those grand plans that was not to be and we would have been disapponted again.

Yes, because Mayor Micky wanted to see if the possibility was there to see if it could be expanded as a multi-use stadium to include soccer. The surveys were done and deemed it wouldn't be a good use of space and ruin the dynamics of the stadium. We can thank Mayor Mick on this one. There are old articles and threads about it, here is one.

http://www.okctalk.com/okc-metro-area-talk/10160-200-million-development-bricktown.html

Spartan
06-07-2010, 09:32 AM
Oh I forgot about that. I had just filed that under half-cooked pot dreams. Mayor Mick will truly pursue any expensive project that he thinks will fascinate the public, even (especially) if in reality it's a horrible idea.

BDP
06-07-2010, 10:11 AM
cant understand why there is no retail in brick town.

It hasn't been developed for retail. You can't really have a smattering of storefronts spread out across the district with lease rates like they want and expect retailers to be excited about it. Lower rates or a more concentrated retail development will be needed before there is any growth in interest from retailers.

okclee
06-07-2010, 01:32 PM
The main problem with Bricktown as a shopping distirct is this - there are too many owners. Imagine if each store space in Penn Square Mall was owned by a different person. It would be a total disaster. You would have people trying to lure luxury retailers, some people opening 3rd party booths, and others keeping their space vacant while they try holding out for a higher selling price.

The only way Bricktown is going to work as a shopping district is if every owner turns their operation over to single company that can market the entire district to create destination retail. Otherwise, it is going to take 5,000 to 10,000 people living in Bricktown to keep retail going.

You nailed it with this point! I have said this many times before too. I like the Penn Square analogy that is a perfect explanation of Bricktowns retail problems.

Imagine if all or even the majority of bricktown property owners went in together and all had the same leasing agent.They could also have an agreement on lease rates. Maybe they have tried this before I don't know. Seems to simple not to be a huge sucess.

positano
06-07-2010, 01:51 PM
This is far afield for me, so I'll try to stay in the shallow end...

Where does Bricktown fall in terms of lease cost? Significantly higher than other urban retail areas in the region? For instance, I'm curious what the cost differences are between Bricktown, Utica Square, Nichols Hills, Highland Park, etc. I know there are a multitude of other variables, but I have heard prior Bricktown tenants speak of extremely high overhead, which obviously makes for pretty thin margins.

It seems when these discussions of retail come up, thoughts immediately go to mall-type retail (how many pairs of $100+ jeans does anyone really need?). I'd love to see a gourmet "niche" market spawn. Consider if you wandered into an area of Bricktown that contained a Sur La Table, Balducci's, or even better - a Native Roots or Forward Foods grocery. Maybe even a produce market like Sterling or Angel's. Those are all places I routinely go out of my way for.

Why doesn't that work? Cost too high? Demand too small?

Rover
06-07-2010, 02:19 PM
Visibility, traffic (actual buyers) and costs of installing the store (remodeling).

If costs come down then the risks can be taken and traffic can be generated. But one store can't do it by themselves. People want to "shop" not go to A store. We tried that with Bass and creating a single destination store doesn't make it a shopping area. There has to be commitment to multiple stores and a concerted effort of the district and property owners/developers.

TheTravellers
06-07-2010, 02:20 PM
Walked down to the Bricktown Candy Co and they were also doing good business, and I was impressed with their collection of soda pops and got some Sioux City Birch Beer. I was disappointed they didn't have Leninade but I've only been able to find that at Pops.

I think you can get Leninade at International Pop (part of Size Records on Western between Britton and Wilshire) - they have a facebook page where they list all their flavors. Don't know where you live and if they're convenient to you, but they've got a huge amount of drinks (and lots of cool records too :-) )...

Spartan
06-07-2010, 07:46 PM
Thanks for the heads up.


This is far afield for me, so I'll try to stay in the shallow end...

Where does Bricktown fall in terms of lease cost? Significantly higher than other urban retail areas in the region? For instance, I'm curious what the cost differences are between Bricktown, Utica Square, Nichols Hills, Highland Park, etc. I know there are a multitude of other variables, but I have heard prior Bricktown tenants speak of extremely high overhead, which obviously makes for pretty thin margins.

It seems when these discussions of retail come up, thoughts immediately go to mall-type retail (how many pairs of $100+ jeans does anyone really need?). I'd love to see a gourmet "niche" market spawn. Consider if you wandered into an area of Bricktown that contained a Sur La Table, Balducci's, or even better - a Native Roots or Forward Foods grocery. Maybe even a produce market like Sterling or Angel's. Those are all places I routinely go out of my way for.

Why doesn't that work? Cost too high? Demand too small?

That's the kind of niche retail that typically develops where there is an affluent neighborhood. That's why Native Roots and Forward Foods are on Main Street in Norman, surrounded by the Chautauqua neighborhood, and Forward Foods is also on North Western, surrounded by Crown Heights.

Chains and "destination retail" don't really require immediate rooftops..

Steve
06-07-2010, 09:08 PM
Bricktown outpriced itself in the early to mid-2000s. But the rates now are on par or lower than Nichols Hills, and I'd assume Utica Square.

Kerry
06-07-2010, 09:31 PM
Bricktown outpriced itself in the early to mid-2000s. But the rates now are on par or lower than Nichols Hills, and I'd assume Utica Square.

Maybe so, but how successful would Utica Sq be if it had 50 different owners all pursuing their own interest with little regard for each other?

Steve
06-07-2010, 09:32 PM
Sometimes it blows my mind just how poorly informed folks are on this board...
I will withdraw from this thread. There is no hope.

Kerry
06-08-2010, 05:47 AM
Sometimes it blows my mind just how poorly informed folks are on this board...
I will withdraw from this thread. There is no hope.

I know there is a Bricktown Association that is supposed to bring the owners together but the reality is it isn't working because there is no major retail in Bricktown. They need to come with Plan B because Plan A didn't work.

The reality is that individual retail won't work in Bricktown until the local population base exceeds several thousand people. If downtown is going to have any significant retail presence it is going to have come in the form of a single large lifestyle-type shopping center with one developer trying to lure multiple tennats.

I remember when they were building St. Johns Town Center here a few years ago. The were slow to release store names because Urban Outfitters wouldn't commit until Coldwater Creek committed, and Coldwater Creek wouldn't committ until Williams Sonoma commited. This meant that Simon Malls would have to give a discount to Williams Sonoma in order to land the other 2. You can't do that in Bricktown becasue that would require an individual owner to fall on the sword for everyone else and no one is going to do that.

Another issue with Bricktown retail is how little space there is to actually rent for national retailers. What is the total amount of available leaseable space? I'll bet it is less than 200,000 sq feet and most of it is less than prime retail space. St Johns Town Center is 1.1 million and University North Park in Norman is planned for something like 3 million.

BG918
06-08-2010, 07:19 AM
Maybe so, but how successful would Utica Sq be if it had 50 different owners all pursuing their own interest with little regard for each other?

Bingo, and that is a big hurtle for downtown retail anywhere in the U.S. unless you get someone like Cordish to buy up an entire area and build retail/restaurants/bars/entertainment like they have done in KC with P+L and in Louisville with 4th Street Live, to name a few. That way parking, a big concern in an urban setting, can be shared and the businesses complement, instead of compete, with each other due to common ownership.

Kerry
06-08-2010, 07:35 AM
Bingo, and that is a big hurtle for downtown retail anywhere in the U.S. unless you get someone like Cordish to buy up an entire area and build retail/restaurants/bars/entertainment like they have done in KC with P+L and in Louisville with 4th Street Live, to name a few. That way parking, a big concern in an urban setting, can be shared and the businesses complement, instead of compete, with each other due to common ownership.

Atlanta has been trying to bring retail to a portion of Midtown and they just can't do it for this very reason. Atlantic Station is owned by one company and they have several national retailers but just down the street is hundreds of thousands of square feet of empty retail space because no one wants to be the owner that cut a low-ball deal just so his neighbors could lease their space at higher rates.

positano
06-08-2010, 07:57 AM
Thanks for the heads up.



That's the kind of niche retail that typically develops where there is an affluent neighborhood. That's why Native Roots and Forward Foods are on Main Street in Norman, surrounded by the Chautauqua neighborhood, and Forward Foods is also on North Western, surrounded by Crown Heights.

Chains and "destination retail" don't really require immediate rooftops..

Interesting. I see your point, but I don't know that I agree that Forward and NR are in what I would consider an affluent neighborhood, or that it's the clientele they appear to serve. That campus area absolutely has some nice homes, but I would describe it as a pretty mixed neighborhood. Also, I'm in both of those shops a couple of times a week and I see a HUGE variety of customers from all over Norman.

I suppose that all means nothing given the lack of much population near the Bricktown area, affluent or otherwise, but I guess that goes back to my original thought. As I pointed out, I go about 15 minutes out of my way to both FF and NR, and always see people who have done the same. Unless that's an anomaly, that would suggest folks might do the same for a Bricktown area with a similar offering. Also, regardless of whether the potential patrons live near Bricktown, a significant number of them work in the area. If I run one of these shops, it doesn't make any difference to me whether customers come from their homes to shop or stop in on their way home from work.

Kerry - why does it take "5,000 to 10,000 people living in Bricktown to keep retail going"? Doesn't that assume you are relying on a residential base to spend the dollars there? I was just trying to think of the closest place I shop (for anything). Other than maybe a pharmacy run of convenience, dry cleaning, and bulk groceries, we tend to destination shop. Most people I know do the same. Also, I tend to disagree with you on the one-owner concept. While that may be the case if Bricktown wants a Dress Barn / Petsmart / Office Depot / AT&T cluster, I don't think that would be the case for something a little more unique, but that's certainly an undeducated opinion on my part.

Maybe some of these retailers have been waiting for answers to the longevity question - "do we think Bricktown will last...?". Maybe with the success of the Thunder the risk of failure for the area is beginning to be outweighed by the potential reward.

Spartan
06-08-2010, 09:08 AM
Positano, I really do agree with you. The problem is you're thinking positively, though. These location consultants have, shalwesay..a different way of thinking.

Kerry--here's the million dollar question: How are they doing it on M Street in DC, Lincoln Rd in Miami Beach, and so on?

metro
06-08-2010, 09:27 AM
Love the Lincoln Rd. Mall in Miami Beach!!!

Kerry
06-08-2010, 09:45 AM
Positano, I really do agree with you. The problem is you're thinking positively, though. These location consultants have, shalwesay..a different way of thinking.

Kerry--here's the million dollar question: How are they doing it on M Street in DC, Lincoln Rd in Miami Beach, and so on?

I don't know but my guess would be they have a lot of people living within walking distance or that live on-site. Bricktown can do this to if they have a local resident population.

@positano - when you do your destination shopping is it in a shopping center? Is that entire shopping center owned by one company that marketed the entire center to a target audience? Have you ever seen an Anne Taylor next to a used furniture dealer?

BDP
06-08-2010, 10:01 AM
Chains and "destination retail" don't really require immediate rooftops..

Yes, but at the same time, a wide variety of individual retailers can actually create a destination on its own without chains. And it would actually be one that is unique and in an atmosphere that would be more enjoyable that your typical mall. I honestly think it is the chains that are crunching the demographic numbers more so than your typical boutiques who just want to see traffic period. If it is unique, dense, and varied, you can create a successful retail environment without chains that is its own destination.

We do have a small scale example of this in Oklahoma City. The stockyards has several locally owned specialty shops and the district lives off of its unique image and culture without chains or without target rooftops nearby. Very few of those shoppers come from the immediate neighborhood and many come from all over the world.

I find it hard to grasp the idea that Bricktown couldn't do AT LEAST what campus corner has done with retail. While campus corner is situated near target neighborhoods and can live off the students to a large extent, Bricktown has easier access to a market 10 times as big with the occasional tourist and convention traffic.

However, a big problem is that bricktown has not been developed with the type of storefront density that even campus corner has. Someone would really have to break up some buildings and add real street access storefronts to get it off the ground, imo. The market place will be good, but for retail to really work it needs store access from the street where people can walk around bricktown to shop several stores, not walk into a single large warehouse to shop.

All that being said, I think the best place to develop store front retail downtown is still mid-town.

Kerry
06-08-2010, 10:09 AM
Meanwhile back at the ranch, there still isn't any significant retail in Bricktown and it isn't due to a lack of trying. They can come up with Plan B or keep trying to stick with Plan A and hope it works out someday (or before someone else develops a real retail district near C2S).

What is Plan B? Who knows but they don't 10 more year to figure it out.

Rover
06-08-2010, 11:31 AM
I think some take some of these comments on this thread as an attack of friends they have in ownership or organizational positions in Bricktown and may not be appreciating the comments and the spirit they are given in. The btown assn and owners may all be great and wonderful people all working together to bring in retail, but the fact remains it hasn't worked. And the WHY is what this thread is exploring. Bricktown Assn may be the hardest working group in the city, I don't know. However, we do know that retail isn't yet working there and there are some good thoughts on this thread as to why.

I can only comment as an outsider looking at the district, observing since its creation, and reading every announcement about it. And my thoughts are this...the buildings don't seem to have been adapted to be appealing for retailers to draw customers into their shops. There is little display window space, visible signage, etc. There are no destination boutiques or difference makers. There are no national brands that are destinations. The only retail is Bass Pro which is at the far end, has a big parking lot dividing it from the main part of Btown and does little to create foot traffic for the area which could be retail. Lower canal area hasn't developed shopping and actually has very poor street visability anyway. Therefore, you have people come to the area to eat and party, not stay and shop. Until you have counts of people who come willing to spend money on shopping, I think it will flounder.

I sincerely hope the Red Dirt Emporium or whatever it is called, works. It seems it is a btown version of the Market at Quail Springs (which I have personally taken space in) and if it is like there, it will work better for the building owner than the retailer.

betts
06-08-2010, 11:36 AM
Yes, but at the same time, a wide variety of individual retailers can actually create a destination on its own without chains. And it would actually be one that is unique and in an atmosphere that would be more enjoyable that your typical mall. I honestly think it is the chains that are crunching the demographic numbers more so than your typical boutiques who just want to see traffic period. If it is unique, dense, and varied, you can create a successful retail environment without chains that is its own destination.

I find it hard to grasp the idea that Bricktown couldn't do AT LEAST what campus corner has done with retail. While campus corner is situated near target neighborhoods and can live off the students to a large extent, Bricktown has easier access to a market 10 times as big with the occasional tourist and convention traffic.

However, a big problem is that bricktown has not been developed with the type of storefront density that even campus corner has. Someone would really have to break up some buildings and add real street access storefronts to get it off the ground, imo. The market place will be good, but for retail to really work it needs store access from the street where people can walk around bricktown to shop several stores, not walk into a single large warehouse to shop.

All that being said, I think the best place to develop store front retail downtown is still mid-town.

I've been thinking about this the past couple of days. A perfect example of how it can be done is The Highlands in Atlanta. They've got a mix of restaurants, bars and shopping in an area smaller than Bricktown. There is housing around it, but people come from all over Atlanta to shop and eat there. They've primarily got clothing stores, but also a shoe store, a florist/gift shop, a couple of antique shops, etc. There aren't a lot, but they're unique and it's a fun place to shop and eat lunch.

There are two places in Bricktown that something similar could be done. I agree that a single building marketplace is not enough of a draw. It's a nice addition, but cannot stand alone as a way to bring people to Bricktown to shop. Main street has several buildings that could be used, however. The Sherman building and the one adjacent to it could be retail, and there are several unrestored buildings across the street that could be used. Then, the primarily single story, primarily empty buildings that used to be clubs across from the Hampton Inn would lend themselves to retail. Both of them are off the canal, which I suspect would make leasing less expensive. If we had a few parts of Bricktown that had retail a little more concentrated, then people would also walk around to other scattered shops, were they to exist.

Perhaps there needs to be a Bricktown Retail Association formed as a subset to the Bricktown Association. And maybe the chamber needs to get involved. I think it will take more than just talking about it. They need to make a real commitment to getting retail there and aggressively market it for retail if they want it to happen.

metro
06-08-2010, 12:30 PM
The Gaslamp in San Diego is really less organized and smaller than Bricktown, yet has indepedent property owners and more retailers than Bricktown, especially in the clothing sector. Heck, I don't even think they have an "association" like Bricktown does.

http://californicating.files.wordpress.com/2008/07/041011-186.jpg

http://photos.igougo.com/images/p415051-San_Diego-Walking_the_Gaslamp_District.jpg

positano
06-08-2010, 12:53 PM
@positano - when you do your destination shopping is it in a shopping center? Is that entire shopping center owned by one company that marketed the entire center to a target audience? Have you ever seen an Anne Taylor next to a used furniture dealer?

No, not typically a shopping center. I'm not much in the category of the "browsing shopper" - I've got a pretty good idea what I'm looking for when I set out. Unfortunately, I end up driving all over the city to get what I need. For me to venture into a shopping mall, somebody better have the monopoly on what I'm looking for. But hence my caveat - maybe folks like me are the exception to the rule and it takes more to make retail fly. Easy for me to say as I'm not the one risking my dollars on a retail venture, but it seems to me that we'll never know what would have worked if we're going to wait for Simon to buy a block and promote a mall. (And don't get me wrong - I'm not knocking malls. They just aren't what I'm looking for.)

And no, I've never seen an Anne Taylor next to a used furniture dealer, but that certainly wouldn't prevent me from buying something at one or the other if they had what I was looking for. In fact, I was just trying to think of some of the shops I frequent and whether I know what is on one side of the other - I'm guessing I might know about 50%.

z28james
06-08-2010, 01:32 PM
I went into that Red Dirt Emporium a few months back and I was impressed with thier selections, but I remember the guy working in there that was was not that friendly, he may have had a bad day for some reason. I make sure that my employees are really super nice to the out of town folks so the leave OKC with a good impression. Also I am impressed with the candy company, the manager in there relly knows his soda and candy. Prices are comparable and they have my beloved imperial dr pepper. I would like to see it move I to another space though, it's sort of hidden.

After reading all the posts it makes some more sense but are the leases high compared to let's say penn square or quail springs etc?

Spartan
06-08-2010, 01:44 PM
Well, let's look at the success the Brewer's are finally having and they might bring Envy across the tracks. There may finally be some retail synergy along the canal with the Bricktown Candy Co, Red Dirt Emporium, Red Dirt Marketplace, Put a Cork In It, and Envy. That's no small potatoes.

I also say that there is a LOT of potential in the idea of a separate retail association. If property owners don't join such a retail association they're morons. Unfortunately, we already know some of them are morons...so who knows.

How did Wichita's Old Town develop its retail offerings??

Kerry
06-08-2010, 02:08 PM
The Gaslamp in San Diego is really less organized and smaller than Bricktown, yet has indepedent property owners and more retailers than Bricktown, especially in the clothing sector. Heck, I don't even think they have an "association" like Bricktown does.

How many people live in or adjacent to the Gas Light District? Answer >10,000.

If Bricktown wants retail without a national developer to bring is destination retail then they better start building some apartment and condos on-site. Three or four blocks away in Deep Duece isn't going to cut it.

betts
06-08-2010, 02:13 PM
@positano - when you do your destination shopping is it in a shopping center? Is that entire shopping center owned by one company that marketed the entire center to a target audience? Have you ever seen an Anne Taylor next to a used furniture dealer?

I haven't seen an Anne Taylor next to a used furniture dealer, but I think we need to appeal to something other than the Anne Taylor/Coldwater Creek crowd, or at least the portion of it who wouldn't consider buying something from a local store.

I've seen an Urban next to vintage clothing and used furniture stores in Chicago, but on that same street were lots of little local boutiques and restaurants and the neighborhood is one considered cool.

I was thinking that a store like Shoe Gypsy would do well in Bricktown. They have shoes that aren't cheap, but aren't insanely expensive either. Their clothes are targeted towards young adults, but their shoes can be worn by any age. If I had the money, I'd knock off Anthropologie and have a store that sold clothes, jewelry, shoes, purses and housewares, with a few unique antigues thrown in, and especially if you priced it a little lower than Anthro, it might be a hit as well. A shop like Glimpse would work, as would an antique/gift/clothing store like French Cowgirl. We don't really need chains, if we have stores that make it fun to shop. Actually, any of the stores along Western would be great, and really, Bricktown could offer retail a lot closer together than shops on Western, with less risk crossing the street and more parking. Again, if we had someone with some vision in the Bricktown Association or the chamber, we might be able to make something like that happen and to heck with the national chains. Most people, if they're visiting, would rather go to stores that aren't just like what they've got at home anyway.

Steve
06-08-2010, 03:21 PM
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betts
06-08-2010, 03:23 PM
We opine Steve. I'm no expert, just someone who likes retail and has done a lot of shopping in a lot of places. I'd love to hear what the experts said.

Spartan
06-08-2010, 03:34 PM
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Rover
06-08-2010, 05:23 PM
If you will notice, Gaslamp has lots of window space at street level and good signage. We have neither in btown.

And Wichita's Old Town retail has been disappearing. Same reason as btown....bar, bar, restaurant, restaurant, shop, bar, restaurant, restaurant, bar restaurant, shop, etc, etc.

BigD Misey
06-08-2010, 06:06 PM
OK. ' Been waiting for the right thing to say...delicately, hopefully.

Just got back from my second visit to OKC in 3 weeks. Sadly, it looks like the fervor that was, is lack-luster for now. Even with baseball in town, the foot traffic was fairly light and the area 'seemed' stagnant. It just may be that OKC residents are not active and not spending. I think that is one reason why retailers are holding back for now.
I also think they will wait and see on the location of the Convention Center, the near completion of Project 180, the River projects and the near completion of I-40 before considering any moves. At least that is what i would do. If all of these are to be implemented in the next 5-10 years, building stores can wait while the city comes up with a concrete plan. The longer it takes to complete the hiway and decide not only where but when to build the convention center, the harder it wiil be to sustain the lifeblood of the movement.

betts
06-08-2010, 06:24 PM
That's interesting because we were in Bricktown for dinner the other night and there were people everywhere. I think there are a lot more people in Bricktown generally than there ever were in the past. There were people dining al fresco at Bolero and In The Raw and at Starbucks, peole riding in bicycle rickshaws and horse-drawn carriages. We went to Earls at my son's request and had to wait for a seat. It looks like Peach Wave is doing well and I'm guessing sammys will open fairly soon. We were talking about how vibrant it felt.

SWOKC 4 me
06-08-2010, 06:45 PM
The wife and I were also in Bricktown this past Saturday night. She made the comment that Bricktown was very busy and she was glad to see that, I agreed. I don't know if it was softball people or locals but it was quite busy when we were there between 7PM and Midnight for dinner and a movie.

Spartan
06-08-2010, 07:43 PM
When I opined on Bricktown vibrancy it always used to be very negative, and I know I've gotten more than a negative rap on this forum in the last year or so that I've turned sour I guess. Especially when I would come back from Calgary to OKC and constantly wonder why there is comparatively NOTHING in downtown OKC. And don't even get me started on constantly having to defend it when it comes up in chatting with out of towners..

That's not the case any more. I truly feel like Bricktown maturing before our eyes. I've been in Bricktown probably 5 or more times so far this summer and I've been pleasantly surprised at how active Bricktown has been. I am confident that it will be a while till I complain that Bricktown is dead and not vibrant.

progressiveboy
06-08-2010, 08:28 PM
OK. ' Been waiting for the right thing to say...delicately, hopefully.

Just got back from my second visit to OKC in 3 weeks. Sadly, it looks like the fervor that was, is lack-luster for now. Even with baseball in town, the foot traffic was fairly light and the area 'seemed' stagnant. It just may be that OKC residents are not active and not spending. I think that is one reason why retailers are holding back for now.
I also think they will wait and see on the location of the Convention Center, the near completion of Project 180, the River projects and the near completion of I-40 before considering any moves. At least that is what i would do. If all of these are to be implemented in the next 5-10 years, building stores can wait while the city comes up with a concrete plan. The longer it takes to complete the hiway and decide not only where but when to build the convention center, the harder it wiil be to sustain the lifeblood of the movement. Well Big D, correct me if I am wrong, you live in Dallas correct? So do I, however as much as I like Dallas there downtown is alot less active than OKC especially at night. West end is dead and Deep Ellum lacks hardly nothing but lots of crime! So I have to give OKC kudos for having a more vibrant nightlife and better atmosphere than Big D.

Rover
06-08-2010, 09:52 PM
I stayed at the Magnolia in downtown Dallas awhile back. It was scary downtown at night there. Won't do that again. Big D stands for Big Dead at night.

ljbab728
06-08-2010, 11:05 PM
How many people live in or adjacent to the Gas Light District? Answer >10,000.

If Bricktown wants retail without a national developer to bring is destination retail then they better start building some apartment and condos on-site. Three or four blocks away in Deep Duece isn't going to cut it.

Kerry, Bricktown might need to attract housing but "Bricktown" can't build housing. It takes developers with money or financing available. That's a very difficult find right now.

BigD Misey
06-08-2010, 11:21 PM
Ok, fair enough...
I lived in OKC for 15 years and moved to Florida for a short stint at the out set of Maps around '96, then to Dallas, where ive been for 14 years. I missed all the action! I would like to say i have a soft heart for OKC. I visit about 8-10 full weekends a year since i still have family there. If you consider me at present an 'out of towner', so be it.
In the view of many of you obviously, it was busy. When you broaden the scope, busy i guess is relative.

Maybe it was the time of day i went. Around noon on saturday this weekend and the weekend it hailed, even when it hailed, i was at the colcord at La Baguette, who had NO patrons at that time. Before, that day, I toured the river walk from Toby Keiths to the fountains at sheridan st. Got some decent pictures of what i call 'some traffic'. But it was sporadic at best. Bourbon St Cafe was full but it was surrounded with empty 'storefronts' if i may use the term loosely. Zios wasn't that busy, Falcone's was empty and it just wasnt what i or those i brought with me from out of town, was hoping for. (I was thinking of joining some of you for the 'Photo Walk' on the weekend in between, but was in Louisiana). Now, I'm not a developer, but IF I were scouting for a developer, and this is what i saw for two weekends out of the month for the last two months, what would you have me say!

While SOME were walking around, it certainly wasn't BUSY by any means. I say this in comparison to some of the towns we want to compare ourselves to. Like KC, Austin, SanAntone and it wasnt even approaching the likes of an elite city like Seattle (The Pier), Chicago (Mich. Ave) or New Orleans when it comes to regular foot traffic, throughout the day.

Look, Ive been on this board for over a year and have offered some "outsider views" especially when it comes to development. Not that i am an expert or anything but I have been close to the 'field' for decades, i can tell you how marketers and developer 'generally feel'. I can give you my opinion, thats all. We ALL post opinions here. Shred me if you will, but it was what I saw!

If you base your opinion of 'busy' on evening and special events, the value is flighty. Its every day, all day that the retailers are interested in...regular foot traffic.

Progressiveboy brings up one of three areas that Bricktown and all OKC should pay close attention to: West End, Deep Ellum and in Fort Worth, Sundance Sq. All historic areas, once thriving. Well West end is dead, Deep Ellum is on the way to Dead and Sundance of all places is struggling, and it pains me to see that. All can be linked to other elements.

When west end had the mall and other retail shops open during the day, things were great! It was rollin' from day thru the night. Then, they lost Planet Hollywood, then the mall virtually shut down leaving only clubs and restraunts. The day time traffic dried up with the exiting of the retailers. Where do people go now? Victory Plaza and new developments along the hwy 75 corridore from Knox, Mockingbird and up to Park. Its new and trendy and full of shops with plenty of daytime traffic. Then throw in the games at AAC and its a success. Its what i hope C2S will be!
Deep ellum struggles because the night life just isn't enough to sustain the value. Sundance is hurting because Tandy/Radio shack moved to another location and likely will file bankruptcy or be bought out, taking a large part of daytime traffic away, virtually starving the mall. Fortunately, i think Sundance will pull through with the help of surrounding development like the Bank that was converted to condos after the tornado. All three have a common theme - regular foot traffic, not just at night, but during the day too. It is the lifeblood of retail development, and at this moment, in downtown, on a regular basis...is not enough to bring the big guns in. Empty storefronts are not a calling card for success.

That is why i think the mayor is on the right track with C2S!
Retail Developers - Hillwood, Harvard Co's and Cordish Cos, Developers who are patient, calculating will wait and see...not if, but WHEN they will move! Only, it will likely happen if C2S happens. ITS NOT BASHING MY HOMETOWN and not a detatched generalization, its an observation, and something i have personally witnessed...but, in the end, is still just an opinion.

PS: You aint kiddin' Rover! Not good at night. Stick around the museum, mckinney ave and Victory Plaza area. Its a little better!

ljbab728
06-08-2010, 11:32 PM
Ok, fair enough...
ITS NOT BASHING MY HOMETOWN and not a detatched generalization, its an observation, and something i have personally witnessed...but, in the end, is still just an opinion.

I understand what you're saying BigD and I'm sure at the time you were there it was very quiet in comparison to what others may have seen. Every commercial area is going to have good days and bad days and ups and downs.

I just have to keep going back in my thoughts to the days when I would have been afraid to set foot east of the railroad tracks and I'm amazed at what I see now. Having to debate about how this area should be further developed seems to me to be a good problem for OKC to have.