Logically I would think if Nordstrom announced they were building an OKC location Penn Square Mall would somehow boot JC Penney and a new Nordstrom would be built there to anchor the mall with Dillard's and Macy's. As much as I'd like to see a downtown location I just can't see it at this point.

is there talk about a nordstrom being built in okc? is it announced somewhere? or is this just dreaming up post? lmk thanks

Logically I would think if Nordstrom announced they were building an OKC location Penn Square Mall would somehow boot JC Penney and a new Nordstrom would be built there to anchor the mall with Dillard's and Macy's. As much as I'd like to see a downtown location I just can't see it at this point.

It almost certainly would be at Penn Square. However, I think it would make more sense to boot the health club and put Nordstrom over there (probably by adding a new Nordstrom structure)

Think it is just dreaming...the ULI folks basically said it ain't happening and they mentioned Nordstroms specifically...not without something like a $40M "incentive package" (public/taxpayer subsidy).

To answer this question: Not in OKC

There was an article in the Oklahoman a few weeks ago that quoted a Nordstroms VP saying they absolutly were not looking to add a store in Oklahoma City or anywhere else in the plains or midwest.

I would rather they try and focus on getting a Target downtown as part of a larger retail/office/play development.

I think it would fit nicely into Penn Square. There are a lot of mid-grade Penn Square-like malls in the mid-Atlantic and Northeast that have Nordstroms. I would assume if Penn Square continues to upgrade and move towards being a higher end mall they will drop JcPenney and replace it with something like a Nordstrom or Lord and Taylor.

Is a Saks or Nieman Marcus feasible right now? Not really. But a Nordstrom seems like it could fit well in OKC.

As much as I would hate to rain on the parade, I doubt seriously that enough people in OKC would pay the money Nordstrom, Saks or Nieman charge for merchandise to make them profitable. Yes Penn Square and Quail Springs would be the two locations but it would shock me to see any of them come here in the next 10 years.

I would love to get a Nordstroms but like many have said, I do not think it will happen. Wrong demographics to support it unfortunately. If it did go it, I would expect it to be at Penn Square mall as that would be the best chance to succeed.

Nordstrom has announced they will open 50 new stores in the next 10 years. The majority of those will be additional locations in major metros but I imagine they will open some in new locations. I can see OKC being near the top of the list when that time comes as it would be the only location in the state.

Nordstrom has announced they will open 50 new stores in the next 10 years. The majority of those will be additional locations in major metros but I imagine they will open some in new locations. I can see OKC being near the top of the list when that time comes as it would be the only location in the state.

Unless they are going to lower their standards of income, density and quality - which equates to people paying higher prices for department store goods - I don't see it happening. Maybe a Nordstrom's Rack.

Nordstrom has announced they will open 50 new stores in the next 10 years. The majority of those will be additional locations in major metros but I imagine they will open some in new locations. I can see OKC being near the top of the list when that time comes as it would be the only location in the state.

Do you have a link to this annoucement? The most recent thing I can find is from 2008 but we all know what has happened since then.

I've shopped at many a Nordstrom, and it's not significantly different from Dillards. High end clothing is fairly comparably priced and Nordstrom has plenty of clothing at lower prices. Dillards here has very expensive shoes and purses as well. Nordstrom simply has different brands and might be marginally more expensive in their bigger stores.

That being said, I think their anti-OKC bias has been evidently displayed and I don't think we'll get one. Saks has been having trouble and Neiman's definitely has higher priced merchandise so I'm not expecting one anytime soon. Again, I'd like to see more smaller higher end stores, especially since they don't require the volume of sales that a store like Nordstrom would. Bloomingdales might be another option, as their merchandise is a slight cut below Nordstrom.

Wait for it...

Tulsa.

I've shopped at many a Nordstrom, and it's not significantly different from Dillards. High end clothing is fairly comparably priced and Nordstrom has plenty of clothing at lower prices. Dillards here has very expensive shoes and purses as well. Nordstrom simply has different brands and might be marginally more expensive in their bigger stores.

That being said, I think their anti-OKC bias has been evidently displayed and I don't think we'll get one. Saks has been having trouble and Neiman's definitely has higher priced merchandise so I'm not expecting one anytime soon. Again, I'd like to see more smaller higher end stores, especially since they don't require the volume of sales that a store like Nordstrom would. Bloomingdales might be another option, as their merchandise is a slight cut below Nordstrom.

It IS significantly different from Dillards... Much higher end clothing, Much larger/better/diverse shoe selection, and the purse selection is nowhere close at Dillards...
I would love to see it in OKC, but doubt it will happen... oh well, Dallas is only 3 hours away.

I think it would look great down near I-240 and Shields. It would blend in well with the manufactured housing dealers.

The second Nordstrom location in Austin is on an "indefinite hold" since November of 2008. The Barton Square mall location is it for now. From what I have heard they have significantly scaled back their expansion plans.

They could take over the entire 'mall' portion of 50 Penn. That's the most logical spot.

Penn Square's land is at max capacity, besides possibly another restaurant @ the NW corner of the parking lot.

If Austin has two Nordstroms surely Oklahoma can have one. Or two, one for each city. I think realistically, Norman and Tulsa have the best demographics to support a Nordstrom. It's going to be tough for OKC.

Spartan, do we really truly know what demographics mean? For instance, if Tulsa's average family income is a few thousand dollars a year higher, does that really mean they'll spend a few thousand more per capita? Because we've got over 300,000 more people shopping than they do. A certain percentage of those people will fit the demographics as well. So, while our average income may be lower, that doesn't necessarily mean we have fewer shoppers who can spend that kind of money. Norman certainly has far fewer shoppers in that income range, no matter what their average income is. And again, the demographics do not factor in how much disposable income any of us have. Oklahoma City actually has as much or more disposable income than Seattle per capita, although we don't have the population they do. Market analysis fails as often as it succeeds, and it's a terribly crude "science" at this point in time.

Austin only has one full Nordstrom, the other one here is a Nordstrom Rack outlet store. The Domain location is the one on indefinite hold and may never be built since when/if Phase III is ever started back up (also includes the Whole Foods and Sak relocations) the city tax subsidy may have expired.

Spartan, do we really truly know what demographics mean? For instance, if Tulsa's average family income is a few thousand dollars a year higher, does that really mean they'll spend a few thousand more per capita? Because we've got over 300,000 more people shopping than they do. A certain percentage of those people will fit the demographics as well. So, while our average income may be lower, that doesn't necessarily mean we have fewer shoppers who can spend that kind of money. Norman certainly has far fewer shoppers in that income range, no matter what their average income is. And again, the demographics do not factor in how much disposable income any of us have. Oklahoma City actually has as much or more disposable income than Seattle per capita, although we don't have the population they do. Market analysis fails as often as it succeeds, and it's a terribly crude "science" at this point in time.

Well Nordstrom just seems to have something against Oklahoma. I don't know if their CEO is Cashville from SkyscraperCity or what, but they seem to be rectifying staying as far away from Oklahoma as possible with the demographics line. That sort of implies that they're being very strict with the demographics threshold. When people look at Norman's demographics they typically include a lot of South OKC (the better areas).

If Austin has two Nordstroms surely Oklahoma can have one. Or two, one for each city. I think realistically, Norman and Tulsa have the best demographics to support a Nordstrom. It's going to be tough for OKC.


Tulsa's demographic advantage over Oklahoma City has not been as large as Spartan suggests in recent years and is rapidly evaporating altogether. In fact, the recent MSA median household income reports I have seen (for 2007 and 2009) put OKC's above Tulsa's.

Well Nordstrom just seems to have something against Oklahoma. I don't know if their CEO is Cashville from SkyscraperCity or what, but they seem to be rectifying staying as far away from Oklahoma as possible with the demographics line. That sort of implies that they're being very strict with the demographics threshold. When people look at Norman's demographics they typically include a lot of South OKC (the better areas).

In what cities that are demographically similar to either OKC or Tulsa (in size and median income) does Nordstrom currently have stores, giving you the idea that Nordstrom has "something against Oklahoma"?

Spartan, do we really truly know what demographics mean? For instance, if Tulsa's average family income is a few thousand dollars a year higher, does that really mean they'll spend a few thousand more per capita? Because we've got over 300,000 more people shopping than they do. A certain percentage of those people will fit the demographics as well. So, while our average income may be lower, that doesn't necessarily mean we have fewer shoppers who can spend that kind of money. Norman certainly has far fewer shoppers in that income range, no matter what their average income is. And again, the demographics do not factor in how much disposable income any of us have. Oklahoma City actually has as much or more disposable income than Seattle per capita, although we don't have the population they do. Market analysis fails as often as it succeeds, and it's a terribly crude "science" at this point in time.

I am confident they look at a combination of median, average, per capita and household income numbers and population.

I guess it's fun to talk about but we are not getting a nordstom. They have said it will not happen, they have said they are not in expansion, and they have said that the Midwest has their worst performng stores. Plain and simple, not happening.

Tulsa's demographic advantage over Oklahoma City has not been as large as Spartan suggests in recent years and is rapidly evaporating altogether. In fact, the recent MSA median household income reports I have seen (for 2007 and 2009) put OKC's above Tulsa's.

You must be SUCH an insider that you're seeing completely different income reports. Both cities are quite low. OKC: $36,797. Tulsa: $38,261

Cities ahead of both: Baton Rouge, Buffalo, Macon GA, Victoria TX, Jackson MS, Albuquerque, Birmingham, Little Rock, Lima OH, Cleveland, Wichita, Topeka, and countless other dumps..

And Oil Capital, what cities make me think they have something against Oklahoma? Who wouldn't flock to glamorous big city locales such as: Salt Lake City. Nashville. Austin. Durham. Charlotte. Delaware. Puerto Rico. That's just FUTURE OPENINGS.
http://about.nordstrom.com/ourstores/openings/openings.asp#MO

Their line is no more Midwest. Well, they're adding two new stores in St Louis and a few in the Chicago area. Also is OKC Midwest? Would OKC benefit by trying to brand itself MORE as a part of the Sun Belt?? (Duh.)

______________________________________
(I feel awful for having just crapped all over so many different cities that are actually truly awesome places such as Buffalo, which I have a soft spot for..but truthfully, you don't want their demographics.)

You must be SUCH an insider that you're seeing completely different income reports. Both cities are quite low. OKC: $36,797. Tulsa: $38,261

Cities ahead of both: Baton Rouge, Buffalo, Macon GA, Victoria TX, Jackson MS, Albuquerque, Birmingham, Little Rock, Lima OH, Cleveland, Wichita, Topeka, and countless other dumps..

And Oil Capital, what cities make me think they have something against Oklahoma? Who wouldn't flock to glamorous big city locales such as: Salt Lake City. Nashville. Austin. Durham. Charlotte. Delaware. Puerto Rico. That's just FUTURE OPENINGS.
New Store Openings - Nordstrom (http://about.nordstrom.com/ourstores/openings/openings.asp#MO)

Their line is no more Midwest. Well, they're adding two new stores in St Louis and a few in the Chicago area. Also is OKC Midwest? Would OKC benefit by trying to brand itself MORE as a part of the Sun Belt?? (Duh.)

______________________________________
(I feel awful for having just crapped all over so many different cities that are actually truly awesome places such as Buffalo, which I have a soft spot for..but truthfully, you don't want their demographics.)

Another Midwest city, Indianapolis, has two Nordstrom's, downtown and a newer suburban location.

You must be SUCH an insider that you're seeing completely different income reports. Both cities are quite low. OKC: $36,797. Tulsa: $38,261

Cities ahead of both: Baton Rouge, Buffalo, Macon GA, Victoria TX, Jackson MS, Albuquerque, Birmingham, Little Rock, Lima OH, Cleveland, Wichita, Topeka, and countless other dumps..



One does not have to be an insider (and I have never claimed to be such) to find accurate and timely information. One just has to have an interest in accurate and timely information. The numbers you just posted are from 2000. You may have noticed that ten years have passed since then and it's pretty hard to argue that those ten years have not been kinder to OKC than they have to Tulsa.

The Federal Home Loan Finance Authority shows a 2008 median income for Tulsa MSA of $57,600 https://www.efanniemae.com/sf/refmaterials/hudmedinc/hudincomeresults.jsp?STATE=OK&choice=msa&CITY=tulsa&FormsButton1=Search. For OKC in 2008 it was $58,500 [/URL].

The Census Bureau's 2008 American Community Survey shows OKC with a median household income of $47,696 [URL="http://factfinder.census.gov/servlet/ADPTable?_bm=y&-geo_id=31000US36420&-qr_name=ACS_2008_1YR_G00_DP3&-context=adp&-ds_name=&-tree_id=308&-_lang=en&-redoLog=true&-format="] (https://www.efanniemae.com/sf/refmaterials/hudmedinc/hudincomeresults.jsp?STATE=OK&choice=msa&CITY=oklahoma+city&FormsButton1=Search)

Tulsa's was $47,067 http://factfinder.census.gov/servlet/ADPTable?_bm=y&-context=adp&-qr_name=ACS_2008_1YR_G00_DP3&-ds_name=ACS_2008_1YR_G00_&-tree_id=308&-redoLog=false&-_caller=geoselect&-geo_id=31000US46140&-format=&-_lang=en

Agreed they are both relatively low in the national rankings. Not sure how that tidbit squares with your latest belief that Nordstrom doesn't to OK only because they "have something against" it.

And Oil Capital, what cities make me think they have something against Oklahoma? Who wouldn't flock to glamorous big city locales such as: Salt Lake City. Nashville. Austin. Durham. Charlotte. Delaware. Puerto Rico. That's just FUTURE OPENINGS.
New Store Openings - Nordstrom (http://about.nordstrom.com/ourstores/openings/openings.asp#MO)



Your listing of cities that make you believe they have something against OK is positively hilarious. Using your preferred 2000 median household income rankings (because it's handy on Wikipedia and the rankings have probably not changed by huge amounts, except for OKC pulling ahead of Tulsa), every one of those cities (with the exception of Puerto Rico) has better demographics than either Tulsa or OKC.

You've been telling us that better demographics are the holy grail and telling us, ad nauseum that Tulsa's far better demographics will continue to get better retail, and now you cannot understand that the cities you've listed have Nordstroms because they have better demographics. Using your Wikipedia 2000 numbers, here are the median household incomes and ranks for the cities that you now say show us that Nordstrom "has something against Oklahoma.":

Salt Lake City: $48,594 20
Nashville: 44,223 67 (and is going to get its first Nordstrom in Sept '11)
Austin 48,950 17
Durham 48,845 18
Charlotte 46,119 38
Delaware 47,528 23 (Newark DE is part of the Philly msa)

Compare those demographics to Tulsa at $38,261 with a rank of 142 and OKC at $36,797 with a rank of 168. Ya think demographics might just have a bit more to do with their choices than anything they "have against Oklahoma"?

Puerto Rico is obviously an anomoly, probably based on tourist traffic (which no doubt helps Nashville along as well).

[QUOTE=Spartan;335044]

Their line is no more Midwest. Well, they're adding two new stores in St Louis and a few in the Chicago area. Also is OKC Midwest? Would OKC benefit by trying to brand itself MORE as a part of the Sun Belt?? (Duh.)

______________________________________
/QUOTE]

That was Neiman Marcus that said no more stores in the midwest, not Nordstrom.

Just to be clear, Nordstrom plans one additional store in St Louis plus a Rack, not 2 full-line Nordstrom. And the full-line Nordstrom they plan has been planned since 2006 and they just recently pushed it back another year. (and for the record, St. Louis's 2000 Median household income was $44,437, ranking 65th)

To clear up another of your many misstatements, Nordstom has one new Rack store planned for Chicago and zero full-line Nordstrom stores, not "a few" as you told us. (Chicago: $51,046, ranking 11th.)

What the hell does that mean, Sooner?

With all of this talk about demographics I can't help buy wonder what a smaller city limits in OKC would do to the numbers. If we lopped off the miles and miles of rural area would per capita income rise, thus moving OKC up the list of future site for retailers?

With all of this talk about demographics I can't help buy wonder what a smaller city limits in OKC would do to the numbers. If we lopped off the miles and miles of rural area would per capita income rise, thus moving OKC up the list of future site for retailers?

It would have zero effect. These are metropolitan area numbers, not city limit numbers.

It almost certainly would be at Penn Square. However, I think it would make more sense to boot the health club and put Nordstrom over there (probably by adding a new Nordstrom structure)

why would nordstrom build at peenis queer mall? theres shoppers with larger incomes nearby at quail springs.

why are we discussing this moot point?

why would nordstrom build at peenis queer mall? theres shoppers with larger incomes nearby at quail springs.

Any chance you have some facts to back up that statement?

why would nordstrom build at peenis queer mall? theres shoppers with larger incomes nearby at quail springs.

Really?

why are we discussing this moot point?

Exactly

why would nordstrom build at peenis queer mall? theres shoppers with larger incomes nearby at quail springs.

Touche.

why would nordstrom build at peenis queer mall? theres shoppers with larger incomes nearby at quail springs.

Funny you refer to Penn Square Mall like that since that's the ony OKC mall I've ever seen where two guys were walking together holding hands.

Nice. Now go have fun in the Brian Walters thread. Good night.

why would nordstrom build at peenis queer mall? theres shoppers with larger incomes nearby at quail springs.

and if, as I suspect, you don't have any actual facts to back that up, maybe you could ask some of the other upscale and even semi-upscale stores that come to town who have virtually all chosen Penn Square over Quail Springs.

Touche.

LOL. Really, only Spartan could be so enthused about a content-free post such as that.

Any chance you have some facts to back up that statement?

Cobra obviously likes making up cute names more than discussing facts.

It would have zero effect. These are metropolitan area numbers, not city limit numbers.

Lets don't let Kerry get started on his deannextion kick again. He and I have been through that many times.

This thread degenerated rapidly. Not that it was ever "great."