While I am sure they will eventually make a lot of money on this development, it is crazy to think they bought this land for over $7 million, ten years ago. Assuming they had a mortgage on it, they have probably paid over a million dollars just in interest over that time period. That is patience....

I doubt they had a mortgage on the property. The question is also what is that property worth today. Not as much as downtown land, but I guarantee you more than they paid for it.

This has always been my concern with putting the Ferris Wheel in first. The neighborhood is far more important than the Ferris Wheel + its immediate surroundings. So hopefully the planning has given them the ability to have maximum flexibility when it comes time to start developing the actual neighborhood.

I participated in some of their planning exercises last year, specific to the wheel and surrounding plaza. They are VERY far along in the land use planning (and even some building design) for the area immediately adjacent to and surrounding the wheel. Though it might not seem this way from the outside looking in, this is NOT a case of installing the wheel and then planning/building around it, but rather thoughtfully integrating the wheel into an already-planned environment that uses the wheel as a centerpiece. Hope that makes sense.

New article from Steve about this: OKC Central: Wheeler District is prepared for take off | Oklahoman.com (http://www.oklahoman.com/article/5483448?access=d56803b89f8dee54afd9675133dff95c). Sounds like there should be some new information coming soon (or might be available now for someone who knows where to find the PUD applications).


The first hint at how the overall project will proceed is included in a newly filed Planned Unit Development application filed with the city that will be presented to the River Design Committee on April 7 and to the Oklahoma City Planning Commission on April 28.

Pud 1611

I have the full application and I will post the link in a bit. It's huge.

Actually met with Blair this morning and will provide more details soon.

Wheeler has now submitted their full Planned Unit Development application to the planning department.

I have the full application but it's 13MB so I've attempted to summarize the most interesting parts below.

In the first image below you can see the outlined 15-acre Phase which will consist of streets (none currently exist) about 150 apartments (the c-shaped buildings) and then 50 single family lots, a renovated terminal building (future community center) and a 3-story office building.

Wherein most suburban homes fit 4 dwellings per acre, this will about double double that. Approximately 35 homes will be 90' x 36' lots; the remaining 15 or so will be on 65' x 30' lots. Even in the case of the very small lots, there will be no shared walls.

After soundly beating me in ping-pong in his offices, Blair Humphreys told me their strategy is to partner with a homebuilder in this first phase to make sure the homes interact property with the street and other elements. After they get this right, they may just sell lots to homebuilders, although established standards will need to be strictly followed. They hope to develop the office building themselves and are seeking developers for the apartment component.

Homes would range in $250,000 to $350,000; apartment rents TBD.

[Note: Blair is a ringer in ping-pong! I'm pretty decent and he beat me 21-10 and I don't think I saw his full game.]



http://www.okctalk.com/images/pete/wheelermaster1b.jpg


http://www.okctalk.com/images/pete/wheelermaster2.jpg


http://www.okctalk.com/images/pete/wheelermaster3.jpg


http://www.okctalk.com/images/pete/wheelermaster4.jpg


http://www.okctalk.com/images/pete/wheelermaster5.jpg


http://www.okctalk.com/images/pete/wheelermaster7.jpg


http://www.okctalk.com/images/pete/wheelermaster8.jpg

I like it, though my inner pedantic is slightly upset by the fact that the plan appears to consist of two quarters and a district.

I'm very glad to see these will be affordable.

I have such high hopes for this development. I hope it lives up to its potential.

What I am most interested in is the interaction with the other neighborhoods. It will be an interesting social experiment.

Pud 1611

Is there a way to search for and view this document on OKC.gov?

I hate that word. It's like using racist to oppose anyone who disagrees with Obama. EVERYONE who's informed has an opinion on what gets built near them. Are they all NIMBYs?

Bahaha. OK.

Wherein most suburban homes fit 4 dwellings per acre, this will about double double that. Approximately 35 homes will be 90' x 36' lots; the remaining 15 or so will be on 65' x 30' lots. Even in the case of the very small lots, there will be no shared walls.
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I live in a 1300 square foot house on a small lot and these lots will be half that size. Not sure if my family can stomach paying that much for so little space. I know the homes will be nice and density is important to a walkable urban village, but this may be a hard sell for growing families who need a bit more space. I have seen other Dover-Kohl neighborhoods that have a bit more elbow room.

Wherein most suburban homes fit 4 dwellings per acre, this will about double double that. Approximately 35 homes will be 90' x 36' lots; the remaining 15 or so will be on 65' x 30' lots. Even in the case of the very small lots, there will be no shared walls.


I live in a 1300 square foot house on a small lot and these lots will be half that size. Not sure if my family can stomach paying that much for so little space. I know the homes will be nice and density is important to a walkable urban village, but this may be a hard sell for growing families who need a bit more space. I have seen other Dover-Kohl neighborhoods that have a bit more elbow room.

Agree. What's the issue with shared walls? Shared walls feels urban. Separate, single-family homes on tiny, tiny lots feels like a cheap suburban addition. At 65' x 30', the space between you and your neighbors is so small it's not functional.

There will be tons of public space and amenities in this project and for many that is more appealing than having additional private space.

Will there be an alley way?

I'm very glad to see these will be affordable.

Starting at that now, better get in early, I don't see that lasting, but I could be wrong.

There seems to be some type of construction near the river. Looks like they leveled out the levy and they also are cleaning up the south side of the property.

It would be pretty fun to have a rave/concert in the abandoned air hanger on site.

The construction near the river is for the ferris wheel plaza. As for the hangar, I'm not sure that's going to be kept, though having an EDM festival inside that thing would be pretty awesome. I think the only structure that will be kept is the old terminal building.

The hangar will be kept and ultimately re-purposed.

Oh, neat! I hadn't heard anything about the hangar. Very cool.

Pete, is there a link online to their PUD application? I've tried searching the planning commission site and I can't find it.

There will be tons of public space and amenities in this project and for many that is more appealing than having additional private space.

There shouldn't be a lot of private space for a development like this. But if they are going with single family detached it should be for the purpose of providing the best of both worlds. I don't see how lots that small will provide enough room for the house, storage, and basic private space that most families would need. It's great to have a dog park but it's nice to have a small back yard to let the dogs out at 5am. And it's not so much the size but the combination of price and size that seems out of range.

There shouldn't be a lot of private space for a development like this. But if they are going with single family detached it should be for the purpose of providing the best of both worlds. I don't see how lots that small will provide enough room for the house, storage, and basic private space that most families would need. It's great to have a dog park but it's nice to have a small back yard to let the dogs out at 5am. And it's not so much the size but the combination of price and size that seems out of range.

It sounds as if you are comparing what you would find in a suburban setting to a development that, from the beginning, has been the antithesis of such sprawled land use.

I can understand the bewilderment of it not personally working for you, but I am sure the Wheeler District isn't aiming at recreating Kingslanding in Moore. Single-family detached housing in an urban, walkable setting IS THE BEST OF BOTH WORLDS IMO. Sprawling grass lots do not go hand in hand with the walkability, density, and connectivity that Humphreys seems to be aiming for. It's also entirely inappropriate considering existing housing stock around this area. I do agree with you about the prices however, which seem steep, especially if the rest of Wheeler is still a grass airpark and existing 80+ year old unmaintained neighborhoods are stone's throw away. The small lots and price I feel will not work without the surrounding area being desirable and at least partially built out. The amenities and more urban housing should come first IMO.

The JFK Urban Renewal area offers a more compelling setting for large single family detached homes with spacious open lots. It's probably cheaper too and you don't have to compromise your access to the immediate downtown area. That's where I would look if I wanted a suburban setting with the perks of downtown 3 minutes down the road.

In my earlier post I mentioned that I currently live in a 1300 square foot house on a very small lot in what I call urban northwest Oklahoma City. Some would call it a postwar shoebox. This is the smallest our family of five can possibly stand. The largest lots in Wheeler will be half that size and more than twice the price. I am not advocating for anything large or spacious, just livable. I don't like suburban and don't want suburban. I think there are slightly lower density developments for single family housing within the New Urbanist/Dover Kohl framework that would fit more of the "traditional neighborhood" model. Think Mesta Park on a smaller scale. These will basically be walkup or row houses with a few feet in between.

Starting at that now, better get in early, I don't see that lasting, but I could be wrong.

I was being a little facetious. Not sure anyone considers 350k affordable.

The truth is there is no new construction anywhere near downtown that is more affordable.

$275-$350 a square foot is the going rate and it's climbing all the time.

Let's look at the 30x65 lot. Minus 5ft setback on either side makes it 20x 65. Subtract off a foot for roof over hang I on either side and you have 18 x 65.

Subtract off the front yard set back (10ft) you have 18 x 55, now take a back yard set back of 10 ft for utilities. The buildable space is around 18 x 45.

Assuming a structure 18' wide and 25' deep you would have a backyard 30' deep. Each story would be 18 x 25= 450. If you build 3 stories tall you have 1350 ft^2.

I haven't seen the plat but this is reasonable expectations based on my experience. Pete, please feel free to correct me based on the pud.

The truth is there is no new construction anywhere near downtown that is more affordable.

$275-$350 a square foot is the going rate and it's climbing all the time.

That's the going rate in Mesta Park, HH, The Hill, and SOSA. All neighborhoods marketed to wealthier individuals. i remember when the first started, they promised mixed income housing. I guess I just didn't really understand what that meant.

^

The only way to make new construction more affordable is to make the homes smaller.

Not much flexibility in the price of land or buidling.

I also don't think that single-family detatched dwellings are the last word in this neighborhood. Pretty sure that plans still call for future phases to include multi-family and townhouse type configurations, where economy of scale and smaller footprints will enable more moderately-priced units.

I think it's fair to say that you won't see low income housing in the district, but if middle-income individuals, couples, smaller families and empty nesters are able to live there, it certainly is fair to characterize it as catering to a mixed income population.

It's not fair to compare this to housing developments on the fringe, where land is essentially free and requires little if any remediation.

Will there be a HOA?

These are all from their PUD; there were more, but this gives you a good idea:



http://www.okctalk.com/images/pete/wheelerhouse1.jpg


http://www.okctalk.com/images/pete/wheelerhouse2.jpg


http://www.okctalk.com/images/pete/wheelerhouse3.jpg


http://www.okctalk.com/images/pete/wheelerhouse4.jpg


http://www.okctalk.com/images/pete/wheelerhouse5.jpg


http://www.okctalk.com/images/pete/wheelerhouse6.jpg


http://www.okctalk.com/images/pete/wheelerhouse7.jpg


http://www.okctalk.com/images/pete/wheelerhouse8.jpg


http://www.okctalk.com/images/pete/wheelerhouse9.jpg


http://www.okctalk.com/images/pete/wheelerhouse10.jpg


http://www.okctalk.com/images/pete/wheelerhouse11.jpg


http://www.okctalk.com/images/pete/wheelerhouse12.jpg

^

The only way to make new construction more affordable is to make the homes smaller.

Not much flexibility in the price of land or buidling.

Wheeler has a nice view of downtown but it's not downtown and the surrounding neighborhoods are extremely impoverished. There are plans for a new school but nothing yet to attract young families. My guess is the Humphreys hedge fund that is paying for this development is looking to cash in as much as they can and give a good return to their investors.

Wheeler has a nice view of downtown but it's not downtown and the surrounding neighborhoods are extremely impoverished. There are plans for a new school but nothing yet to attract young families. My guess is the Humphreys hedge fund that is paying for this development is looking to cash in as much as they can and give a good return to their investors.

Yes, that is probably true. It's a privately funded development on a private piece of land, so it would be kind of stupid on their part if they weren't looking to turn a profit.

What does that even mean? It's a one-page website of random street scenes. Probably about an hour spent on Google image search. It's essentially a Pinterest board. You're suggesting that is more impressive than Wheeler's planning documents?

Wheeler has a Pinterest board with similar photos and a stagnant website, but they've also had a lot more time to communicate with the public about their vision. The charette was almost two years ago and there has been very little public information or involvement since then. A lot of people got excited and some of that excitement has waned, IMHO. I don't doubt the quality of their planning efforts but their marketing and PR could use some improvement.

Wheeler has a Pinterest board with similar photos and a stagnant website, but they've also had a lot more time to communicate with the public about their vision. The charette was almost two years ago and there has been very little public information or involvement since then. A lot of people got excited and some of that excitement has waned, IMHO. I don't doubt the quality of their planning efforts but their marketing and PR could use some improvement.

They just filed a 218-page Planned Unit Development document with the city, have held multiple interviews that has resulted in many articles, have made hundreds of posts on their various social media accounts and started construction on the Ferris wheel and plaza.

Not exactly sure what else you want them to do.

^^^^^^^
Yes, and even then "marketing and PR" is about ten items down the list in importance at this juncture. Judging either Wheeler or Strawberry fields by their respective marketing and PR efforts demonstrates an incomplete understanding of how much is necessary behind the scenes for either. At this point, what is going on behind the scenes is pretty much ALL that matters, in fact.

My point is that there was a big emphasis on public involvement and awareness at the beginning and then it quickly shifted to only those in the know. Yes, there have been articles but they were mostly rehashing what was presented at the charette meetings (Ferris Wheel, walkable/bikable neighborhood, etc). The PUD document has not been posted publicly yet and we have to rely on insiders like you to get additional info. Even with all of that, it is mostly a one-way communication and not the two-way dialogue and connection to the community like what we saw in July 2014. They hired a marketing and PR person over a year ago, so I assume it is of some importance even at this juncture. I "signed up to be a part of the process" as their website states and have yet to receive an e-mail update or invitation to actually be a part of the process beyond the initial charette, whatever that means.

We all know this is going to be an amazing development and one of a kind for the state of Oklahoma. I'm just pointing out some areas where I think they fell short, that's all.

This is still a private business development, right?

I moved a bunch of photos here:

Strawberry Fields - OKCTalk (http://www.okctalk.com/showwiki.php?title=Strawberry+Fields)

I haven't seen it mentioned explicitly, but the allowance for and encouragement of Accessory Dwelling Units will help drive overall affordability and mixed-income residents. ADUs are typically rented for cheaper than many apartments, and the supplemental rental income from those units will help more people be able to afford the mortgage on the main property unit.

^

The only way to make new construction more affordable is to make the homes smaller.

Not much flexibility in the price of land or buidling.

1. Are they actually selling the land?

2. I don't remember that land being terribly expensive. More than an Edmond development, sure, but surely nothing like downtown land, and especially considering they've held the land for some time now. If that $7.2M figure in the wiki is accurate, then I'm pretty sure they're at well under $5 per square foot on land acquisition. Obviously a lot of site cleanup and other infrastructure buildup that needs to be done, but I feel like land assembly would need to be a lot more to start pushing $275/sf+ selling points to make a profit.

3. Construction costs cannot be significantly higher than the rest of the metro, and many new homes throughout the metro are selling for well under $150/sf.

So I mean $100/sf is obviously unrealistic, and that pretty well eliminates a section of people. But this development should be able to push out sub $200/sf without major compromise.

I haven't built, but I get the sense that in Oklahoma City, good urban development should be doable for about $160/sf - $190/sf (obviously neither downtown nor with concrete due to land and building costs). The more density, the better, because you get economy of scale.

$180/sf @ 1250sf is under $250k. I think that would be quite a bit more attractive to a lot of people. Break that $300k mark for the majority of your homes and it is now a distinctly upper middle-class neighborhood. And to be sure, if Wheeler is done right, demand alone will swing prices way up there…but I would hope that people who are going to stick their necks out and put their money where their mouth is at the front end will get rewarded with favorable prices.

I could list all the planning expense and amenities and the fact they need to build streets and do cleanup... But property is worth what someone is willing to pay for it.

It's pointless to debate what something should be priced; the market will dictate that.


And we have this discussion time and time again here where people claim various things near downtown are far overpriced, yet everything sells quickly and prices keep going up.

The only new construction near downtown even proposed for anywhere near $300K is The Civic, which has already sold half its units at near $250 / SF, with shared walls and floors, no outdoor space, no garage and no amenities.


On the other hand, there are tons of existing properties near downtown for very affordable prices.

I have no doubt that stuff in Wheeler will eventually be pegged to about 10%-15% less than downtown prices (if that much). And I have been been pretty consistent in saying that I think downtown is *still* undervalued by those saying it's overpriced.

But I don't know…depending on how big these homes are for $280k, it just seems like a stretch down here. The kind of stretch that could negatively impact the development.

^

I understand, Teo.

Fortunately, Wheeler has one of the sharpest and most astute minds in all of OKC at the controls and I also know he is absolutely raving passionate about this being a success.

There is demand for housing in the $300K+ price range. I am not sure if there is enough demand to fill the entire Wheeler District.

Did we ever determine if they are selling the land?

There is demand for housing in the $300K+ price range. I am not sure if there is enough demand to fill the entire Wheeler District.

It will be a 10-12 year build out.

Did we ever determine if they are selling the land?

IIRC, individual tracks will be sold to each developer for smaller scale residential development. I'm sure there will be restrictions on these sales to ensure construction begins quickly after sale so people don't buy up land for speculation purposes. Humphreys will also engage in their own residential and commercial development in the neighborhood.

^

That is correct.

IIRC, individual tracks will be sold to each developer for smaller scale residential development. I'm sure there will be restrictions on these sales to ensure construction begins quickly after sale so people don't buy up land for speculation purposes. Humphreys will also engage in their own residential and commercial development in the neighborhood.

That's sort of how they are running Carlton Landing. They have a select list of approved builders they call The Guild. No one else is allowed to build but companies in The Guild. Some of those builders have bought lots and built both spec dwellings and also built custom homes at the site. Individuals can buy a lot, but they have to use a Guild builder, start construction within a year or start paying penalties, and finish on some time line or pay penalties. There is a design manifesto, design review and approval process. Carlton Landing has built and sold some and they have some timeshare property in some state of sales/development. IIRC, owners are required to use Carlton Landing to manage rentals if they rent their property, and go through them for resale. 30 year plan to fully develop Carlton Landing if I remember.

I wonder if Wheeler will have home owner association fees?

From their Twitter account... Ferris wheel pavilion starting to take shape:

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CebEvCoUUAAP4Xp.jpg

From their Twitter account... Ferris wheel pavilion starting to take shape:

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CebEvCoUUAAP4Xp.jpg

https://twitter.com/wheelerdistrict/status/715188130320556032

http://journalrecord.com/2016/03/29/wheeler-district-plans-under-review-real-estate/

Wish they would have put this in the boathouse district.

Wheeler District plans under review | The Journal Record (http://journalrecord.com/2016/03/29/wheeler-district-plans-under-review-real-estate/)

Here you go:

Wheeler District plans under review

By: Molly M. Fleming The Journal Record March 29, 2016

OKLAHOMA CITY – City officials and elected leaders have seen the master plan for the Wheeler District, at the former Downtown Airpark site. After two years of work, the legal documents outlining the district’s design are being considered by the Riverfront Design Committee.

“We are very much in the stage of the project where we are taking things from plans into reality,” said Blair Humphreys, district developer. “It’s keeping us busy.”

The planned unit development application addresses 91.8 acres that stretches from the Oklahoma River, south to Twin Creek, east to S. Western Avenue, and west to S. McKinley Avenue. Humphreys said most of the area is zoned for industrial use, but the PUD would give him and his development team legal guidelines for which the area must be developed.

The PUD lays out five tracts, which are defined as urban civic, urban general, urban neighborhood, protected neighborhood and neighborhood school. The allowed uses in each tract are defined in the PUD. For example, in the urban civic area, rainwater harvesting, roof gardens, community recreation and murals are allowed. Manufactured tiny houses are allowed in tract 2. Single-family residential is permitted in tracts 2, 3, 4 and 5.

The Wheeler District is a mixed-use development, which incorporates a variety of housing styles with commercial and recreational spaces.

University of Oklahoma Institute for Quality Communities Interim Director Shane Hampton said the Wheeler District is significant in terms of city planning because of its close proximity to downtown.

“A lot of times (new urbanism) is an infill neighborhood,” he said. “It’s a smaller site. It’s not quite on a scale of this size. The location makes it pretty unique, I think.”

He said the joke in city planning circles is that new urbanism is actually old urbanism, in that it’s a return to how cities were developed in the 1920s, with the pedestrian or public transportation in mind.

“We’re building walkable, mixed-use communities again,” he said. “For 50 to 60 years, everything was separate, with offices in one area, housing in one, and retail in another. New urbanism is bringing back the idea that all of those can be integrated into a complete neighborhood in an attractive way.”

Besides being close to downtown, the Wheeler District is likely different from other new urbanism communities because of its signature piece, the Ferris wheel from the Santa Monica pier. It will be erected in May, Humphreys said. Construction on the foundation started this week.

“It will be open no later than July 4,” he said.

Wheeler’s infrastructure work starts this fall, with Phase 1 construction starting in early 2017. Phase 1 has more than 50 single-family homes, over 100 apartments, townhomes, condo-flats, 20,000 square feet of office space, and at least 3,000 square feet of retail or restaurants. Humphreys is keeping the former terminal building and renovating it into one of the community’s first hot spots.

“I’ve been working on this project for more than two years now,” he said. “I’m excited about the vision and excited to start building.”

Manufactured tiny houses are allowed in tract 2.

I wonder if that's a manufactured home park with rental lots, or a block of tiny lots for tiny houses? I can't imagine what a tiny house lot would sell for. Maybe the intent is to allow people who can afford to buy in Wheeler to rent out a space and/or a tiny house in their back yard. I have friends in Portland who do that.

Tiny houses/lots prob. mean 1000 sq. ft or smaller homes built on zero lot line tracts.