^^^

*finally get to do that.

I think, if it hasn't already, an urban design district needs to be established to set some standards for anything developed in that area.

Lower Bricktown comes to mind, where an awesome concept drawing was put forward that everybody could get excited about. It was something that was going to actually take OKC to the next level. What was actually built ended up being vastly different because of low standards and lack of vision. OKC needs to make sure that doesn't happen this time.

I don't disagree with the general need for carefully enforced planning and design guidelines, but this is yet another post that indicates a lack of understanding regarding who these people are and what they value. Hint: it isn't the fast buck.

This is no different that dozens of developments in places like Edmond or Norman (or wherever); it is just more carefully-planned and focused on the pedestrian environment.

I would say that the fact that it is focused on a pedestrian environment is a HUGE difference than any development in Edmond or Norman. If there is a market for that it will succeed, if not it will be substantially different than the plans. That's all josh was saying. It's great that you believe in this and the Humphreys, but in the end it comes down to cost and market like josh said.

Naysay all you want. This development is moving forward, and while it may not (even certainly will not) look exactly like what came out of the charettes ... the finished product will be anything but watered down.

+1 .. and
http://media-cache-ec0.pinimg.com/736x/5a/e8/9f/5ae89f403d32b9e72083fe3e14a00924.jpg

Knowing Blair over the years, watching him grow as an individual in this community, gives me high hopes for this project. Probably the speed at which things will happen has more to do with how much money the Humphrey's and their investors are willing to invest as the kick start.

As always, the damn traffic engineers are going to be a problem at the City. That is going to affect how quickly they can revamp Western and the other streets along the perimeter of the development.

Then there is the question of politics and resources. Namely, who still holds grudges against former mayor Kirk Humphreys who may be in the line up to authorize and support directing City resources to the Wheeler District. And then there is the question of resources all around. Are there desires by Cathy O'Connor to use Urban Renewal resources on "her" projects that might be stretched by Wheeler? Or if a TIF is done, will it generate enough revenue that modifications to Western, other street mods, storm water management, general utilities, and other infrastructure are sufficiently self financed through a Wheeler specific TIF district?

I think Blair is the man to pull it off if anybody can. The outpouring of community support definitely helps send a signal to those who may impact this project. But this is definitely going to take some finesse to pull off a good start in an expedient manner.

I just hope that enough of it is priced reasonably enough that it truly competes with burbs and enables many of us the ability to actually own something and live there.

I would say that the fact that it is focused on a pedestrian environment is a HUGE difference than any development in Edmond or Norman. If there is a market for that it will succeed, if not it will be substantially different than the plans. That's all josh was saying. It's great that you believe in this and the Humphreys, but in the end it comes down to cost and market like josh said.

Correct. A lot of people in central Oklahoma cannot wrap their minds around anything other than suburban tract developments and strip malls like they have always known. You see this in the NewsOK comments regarding walkable developments. Luckily I think there is enough people here who want something different that it will end up successful.

Correct. A lot of people in central Oklahoma cannot wrap their minds around anything other than suburban tract developments and strip malls like they have always known. You see this in the NewsOK comments regarding walkable developments. Luckily I think there is enough people here who want something different that it will end up successful.

A lot of people won't understand it until they see it in action. Once they do, a certain percentage of folks will decide they want to live like that.

A lot of people won't understand it until they see it in action. Once they do, a certain percentage of folks will decide they want to live like that.

This…And this is where being under-travelled as a city whole really hurts us. I've realized in the past year that the reason people from OKC make so many comparisons to Dallas is because that's the only other "great city" that many people here have really been to, seen, and somewhat familiarized themselves with.

This…And this is where being under-travelled as a city whole really hurts us. I've realized in the past year that the reason people from OKC make so many comparisons to Dallas is because that's the only other "great city" that many people here have really been to, seen, and somewhat familiarized themselves with.

This is true.

I know many people who have never flown on an airplane, or traveled outside of OK and TX. It's a real shame.

This is true.

I know many people who have never flown on an airplane, or traveled outside of OK and TX. It's a real shame.

I think that's true everywhere. It's just Oklahoma's isolated (compared to the coasts) geographical location means there aren't very many urban areas people are familiar with. Charlotte natives generally look to Atlanta, Raleigh, and the coastal smaller cities like Charleston and Savannah.

It's particularly true of people from the United States that we're poorly traveled…but it seems to me everything between the Mississippi River and Las Vegas are probably on a worse level overall than those on the coasts, although that could just be a per-capita issue.

Of course I say this, and one of my favorite stories from Buenos Aires is that I was buying some groceries at the store and at the time I was using my credit card…they needed to see an ID so I pulled out my drivers license and handed it to the cashier to write it down (I don't keep my passport on my person). As the cashier handed me my cards back, the lady behind me said "Are you from Oklahoma?". That surprised me well enough and then she said "When I saw you give him your license, I said to myself 'There's no way that's an OK License.'" I said "Yep, I'm from OKC" and I found out that she was from OKC as well. I said "Well let me give you a hug then!!! It's always nice to see people from home!"

El mundo se cambia más pequeño cada día.

This…And this is where being under-travelled as a city whole really hurts us. I've realized in the past year that the reason people from OKC make so many comparisons to Dallas is because that's the only other "great city" that many people here have really been to, seen, and somewhat familiarized themselves with.this is I concert. I don't of one person who hasn't been over seas.

this is I concert. I don't of one person who hasn't been over seas.

??

Go home, Panda, you're drunk.

Go home, Panda, you're drunk.

:congrats:

Crap!

??i agree with you on that!

Shouldn't this thread be called Wheeler District?

...Of course I say this, and one of my favorite stories from Buenos Aires is that I was buying some groceries at the store and at the time I was using my credit card…they needed to see an ID so I pulled out my drivers license and handed it to the cashier to write it down (I don't keep my passport on my person). As the cashier handed me my cards back, the lady behind me said "Are you from Oklahoma?". That surprised me well enough and then she said "When I saw you give him your license, I said to myself 'There's no way that's an OK License.'" I said "Yep, I'm from OKC" and I found out that she was from OKC as well. I said "Well let me give you a hug then!!! It's always nice to see people from home!"

El mundo se cambia más pequeño cada día.

I had a similar experience when visiting the Tower of London a few years back. I was on a parapet near Traitor's Gate, and asked a woman standing nearby to take a photo of me and the person I was with. She said "sure," and I caught her American accent. I said "oh, you're American, where are you from?" and she said, "Ponca City, Oklahoma..."

As always, the damn traffic engineers are going to be a problem at the City. That is going to affect how quickly they can revamp Western and the other streets along the perimeter of the development.


Those damn traffic engineers! Why should they care that the developers want to take a street that currently carries 15,000 cars a day and turn in into a 2-lane street with 10' lanes?

They've already had technical meetings with the traffic engineers, with the Public Works Director and with the City Manager on the latest set of drawings. There will of course be refinements, but City staff indicated that most of the re-alignment work proposed can be accommodated if the developer in fact pursues that direction, and the City in general is very supportive of the development. Next?

Not sure why you are so hopeful that this development will fail.

They've already had technical meetings with the traffic engineers, with the Public Works Director and with the City Manager on the latest set of drawings. There will of course be refinements, but City staff indicated that most of the re-alignment work proposed can be accommodated if the developer in fact pursues that direction, and the City in general is very supportive of the development. Next?

Not sure why you are so hopeful that this development will fail.

Not sure why you think I'm hopeful that it will fail. Just because I haven't broken out my pompons like most on here doesn't mean that I don't like this development. In fact, I really love it and I hope it succeeds. But in order to succeed it has to work in the real world and not just look good on paper. And in the real world the City is not going to let Western be turned into a 2-lane road. Like I said, it handles 15,000 cars a day and is only one of 3 access points for south-siders to I-40 between I-44 and I-35. This development doesn't exist in a vacuum, it needs to be a good neighbor to the rest of the South Side.

I don't think asking that Western remain 4-lanes is asking too much. You can still have your roundabouts, just leave Western with enough lanes to accommodate the traffic it gets now.

This development is being ANYTHING but a bad neighbor to the south side. In fact, it will be the best thing to happen to the south side in generations. Besides, the development will restore connections to the grid that have been missing for decades and actually ease traffic congestion that now exists. This planning was hardly done in a vacuum; in fact as far from it as can be imagined. It heavily involved all impacted neighborhoods and City agencies.

I hope it succeeds because I know Blair personally but I just don't see it happening. Too many people want to buy cookie cutters out in Edmond to get it at $85 a sqft
His target audience I just don't think has the cash or credit lines to secure loans for these places.

I hope it succeeds because I know Blair personally but I just don't see it happening. Too many people want to buy cookie cutters out in Edmond to get it at $85 a sqft
His target audience I just don't think has the cash or credit lines to secure loans for these places.

I doubt the demand for tract houses in Edmond will have any effect on the success of the Wheeler district. Considering the fact similar developments have succeeded in other cities the size of OKC (Memphis for instance), why wouldn't it be successful here?

Not sure why you think I'm hopeful that it will fail. Just because I haven't broken out my pompons like most on here doesn't mean that I don't like this development. In fact, I really love it and I hope it succeeds. But in order to succeed it has to work in the real world and not just look good on paper. And in the real world the City is not going to let Western be turned into a 2-lane road. Like I said, it handles 15,000 cars a day and is only one of 3 access points for south-siders to I-40 between I-44 and I-35. This development doesn't exist in a vacuum, it needs to be a good neighbor to the rest of the South Side.

I don't think asking that Western remain 4-lanes is asking too much. You can still have your roundabouts, just leave Western with enough lanes to accommodate the traffic it gets now.+1

I hope it succeeds because I know Blair personally but I just don't see it happening. Too many people want to buy cookie cutters out in Edmond to get it at $85 a sqft
His target audience I just don't think has the cash or credit lines to secure loans for these places.people buying homes in Edmond has nothing to do with this development nor will the housing market in any suburb be affected. This is an amazing development that will attract a completely different kind of buyer.

Not sure why you think I'm hopeful that it will fail. Just because I haven't broken out my pompons like most on here doesn't mean that I don't like this development. In fact, I really love it and I hope it succeeds. But in order to succeed it has to work in the real world and not just look good on paper. And in the real world the City is not going to let Western be turned into a 2-lane road. Like I said, it handles 15,000 cars a day and is only one of 3 access points for south-siders to I-40 between I-44 and I-35. This development doesn't exist in a vacuum, it needs to be a good neighbor to the rest of the South Side.

I don't think asking that Western remain 4-lanes is asking too much. You can still have your roundabouts, just leave Western with enough lanes to accommodate the traffic it gets now.

They might let it be a three lane road, one each direction with a center turn. Also if they did allow two and congestion on it does start to appear, most people who live south would shift to Walker a quarter mile over which is four lanes as well(unless you are closer to Penn), which might even be faster during rush hour now since it you would not have to mess with congestion coming in off the interstate.

To paraphrase Steve - this project is going to challenge a lot of people's assumptions and world views. In the mean time, I will be looking up crow recipes.

I hope it succeeds because I know Blair personally but I just don't see it happening. Too many people want to buy cookie cutters out in Edmond to get it at $85 a sqft
His target audience I just don't think has the cash or credit lines to secure loans for these places.

You're right. The people who want to pay $85 a foot and live in a cookie cutter development won't be interested. But this is a city. There are all sorts of people in it. I know several people who have been waiting for just the right thing near downtown who will likely buy here. And when I'm out watering my flowers I get asked questions all the time by people who are seriously looking downtown. I don't think any of them expect to pay $85 a foot. People's ideas are changing - no matter their age and financial status. There are people interested who can easily afford this.

It's worth noting that a participant in the planning process from the Dover-Kohl team was Rick Hall of Hall Planning and Engineering, who is by profession a traffic engineer. Not to mention, again, the technical meetings with City Staff throughout the design week to ensure plans were on the same page with ordinance and City requirements. These preliminary designs were very well thought-out and considered all of the things that naysayers are now bringing up here, after the fact.

Despite the publicity around the feel-good charettes and public involvement, most of the design work was done by serious people, nationally-known experts in the field who have all navigated these waters before many times in other cities. And it was at the behest of heavily-credentialed clients, already-versed and experienced in New Urbanist development and City regulatory requirements, people who are highly successful in business and avowed capitalists. Contrary to what some here seem to think, it wasn't just just a social exercise attended by a bunch of dreamers, do-gooders and hippies.

To paraphrase Steve - this project is going to challenge a lot of people's assumptions and world views. In the mean time, I will be looking up crow recipes.OK... Because people are totally unaware of lifestyles like this. You people crack me up.

OK... Because people are totally unaware of lifestyles like this. You people crack me up.

Well there are a lot of people here, OKCretro being one of them, who cling to the idea that true new urbanist communities will never work in OKC. There is this idea that people here may want to rent downtown in their early twenties but will ultimately want a house in the suburbs. This development, if successful, will turn that perception on its head.

A true new urbanist community can be successful almost anywhere if it's built right.

OK... Because people are totally unaware of lifestyles like this. You people crack me up.

1) Yes, some people are totally unaware. I have several of them in my family so I know those people exist.
2) Yes, there are some people who are aware they exist but don't think they will work in OKC because they think everyone in OKC loves track houses and driving 15 minutes to everything.

It reminds me of a little story.

In 1903 two rival shoe salesmen representing the two largest shoe manufactures in England set out to find new markets. Both of them were sent by their respective employers to the island of New Caledonia in the South Pacific. Upon arrival both salesmen noticed that no one wore shoes. The first salesman sent a telegram back to his employer which read, "New Caledonia a bust. No one here wares shoes." The second salesman wrote back to his company and said, "New Caledonia gold mine. Send lots of shoes. No one here has any." Today every person in New Caledonia owns multiple pairs of shoes.

To paraphrase Harry Selfridge (who revolutionized the retail industry), how do people know what they want until they see everything that is available?

Hasn't this been posted already?


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XoVXoB6x3vM

Dover, Kohl & Partners (http://www.doverkohl.com/) has already successfully done Glenwood Park (http://www.glenwoodpark.com/) in Atlanta. If they can do it there, we can also do it. I absolutely love the old Main Street buildings you can see on the Glenwood Park website but they are all new construction. I hope they can build something that will be brick/stone that will still be around in the 50 year plan and beyond.

http://www.glenwoodpark.com/files/glenwood/home/1020/01_MG_0530.jpg
via http://www.glenwoodpark.com/

Hasn't this been posted already?


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XoVXoB6x3vM

Dover, Kohl & Partners (http://www.doverkohl.com/) has already successfully done Glenwood Park (http://www.glenwoodpark.com/) in Atlanta. If they can do it there, we can also do it. I absolutely love the old Main Street buildings you can see on the Glenwood Park website but they are all new construction. I hope they can build something that will be brick/stone that will still be around in the 50 year plan and beyond.

http://www.glenwoodpark.com/files/glenwood/home/1020/01_MG_0530.jpg
via Welcome to Glenwood Park :: We're adding 40 news homes to Atlanta's favorite New Urban community (http://www.glenwoodpark.com/)

That looks amazing. Charlotte has some developments like that also. Hopefully the Wheeler district looks like that.

That looks like the Hill to me. I'm hoping for something a bit edgier.

That looks like the Hill to me. I'm hoping for something a bit edgier.

If its anything like Harbortown in Memphis, there will ultimately be a mix of styles, some more traditional like in the image above and other homes that are post-modern in style.

Wheeler District announces makeover plans | Oklahoma City - OKC - KOCO.com (http://www.koco.com/news/wheeler-district-announces-makeover-plans/26989592#!bjcDN0)

Hasn't this been posted already?


I posted that video in the New Urbanism Library thread last year. Since then I have been to Gleenwood Park on several occasions. I should be up to Atlanta again at the first of August and I'll try to go by and get some pictures.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yc2NQJp88bM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yc2NQJp88bM

Wheeler District Charrette - Work-in-Progress Presentation (July 16 20124)

https://www.flickr.com/photos/williamhider/sets/72157645436660758/

Hasn't this been posted already?


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XoVXoB6x3vM

...
That's fantastic. It does a great job of explaining why walkability is so much more than just having sidewalks (and in fact doesn't even really mention sidewalks). It was interesting during the Dover-Kohl presentation in the Wheeler excercise that one of the slides describing walkability listed sidewalks as something like the 5th or 6th priority in determining good walkability in a district. So many people get hung up on them and equate sidewalks with walkability, ergo "my suburban subdivision has great sidewalks, so it is walkable." Having someplace TO walk and having that walk feel interesting and safe are far more important. Otherwise you just have great albeit unused sidewalks, which is the reason suburban developers started trimming them from their budgets; they weren't used.

Also not to be missed in that video is the Glenwood Park developer's comments during the credits at the end. He makes a great point about how upset he gets when he hears that walkability or urbanism are some government mandate to control people or places, when it is really just an attempt to get these types of developments simply made legal in the first place. In other words, the municipal code in most cities actually makes many components of walkabiltiy ILLEGAL.

Also not to be missed in that video is the Glenwood Park developer's comments during the credits at the end. He makes a great point about how upset he gets when he hears that walkability or urbanism are some government mandate to control people or places, when it is really just an attempt to get these types of developments simply made legal in the first place. In other words, the municipal code in most cities actually makes many components of walkabiltiy ILLEGAL.

I battle this all the time myself. I constantly have to remind people that walking is the natural state of man (and thus, a walkable environment is man's natural place) and that a central government mandated that to participate fully in society you must own a car. People just think that the day they were born was the height of American freedom, and every day since then has been one more day in a march to tyranny. Thomas Jefferson and George Washington were both planners who designed walkable cities. Many people don't know it but GW worked as a surveyor laying the original street grid in Alexandria, VA. He sure as heck didn't build any super-blocks.

I battle this all the time myself. I constantly have to remind people that walking is the natural state of man (and thus, a walkable environment is man's natural place) and that a central government mandated that to participate fully in society you must own a car. People just think that the day they were born was the height of American freedom, and every day since then has been one more day in a march to tyranny. Thomas Jefferson and George Washington were both planners who designed walkable cities. Many people don't know it but GW worked as a surveyor laying the original street grid in Alexandria, VA. He sure as heck didn't build any super-blocks.

If you are going to use that logic, then to stay in our most natural state, we should not communicate via the phone or internet. We should only communicate with someone when we are there with them physically. Jefferson and Washington were born before the invention of the vehicle, so they had no reason not to plan walkable cities. I am not sure I understand your reasoning.

I battle this all the time myself. I constantly have to remind people that walking is the natural state of man (and thus, a walkable environment is man's natural place) and that a central government mandated that to participate fully in society you must own a car. People just think that the day they were born was the height of American freedom, and every day since then has been one more day in a march to tyranny. Thomas Jefferson and George Washington were both planners who designed walkable cities. Many people don't know it but GW worked as a surveyor laying the original street grid in Alexandria, VA. He sure as heck didn't build any super-blocks.

People today just think the post-WWII version of the "American Dream", which means a house in the suburbs with an SUV, is the pinnacle of freedom. Its going to take some convincing to change people's minds about that. I think people who want that house at the end of a cul-de-sac should have that option. The last thing this country needs is for everybody to be forced into urban environments when they don't want to be. People should have the option however and I believe a lot of people may want urban environments once they are exposed to the benefits of them. Others just don't like people and crowds and will always prefer suburbia or rural America.

Here is a very old song that sums up the feelings of many Americans and why urban communities are such a hard sell in this country.

Oh, give me land, lots of land, under starry skies above
Don't fence me in
Let me ride thru the wide-open country that I love
Don't fence me in
Let me be by myself in the evening breeze
Listen to the murmur of the cottonwood trees
Send me off forever, but I ask you please
Don't fence me in

Just turn me loose
Let me straddle my old saddle underneath the western skies
On my cayuse
Let me wander over yonder till I see the mountains rise
I want to ride to the ridge where the West commences
Gaze at the moon until I lose my senses
I can't look at hobbles and I can't stand fences
Don't fence me in

The last thing this country needs is for everybody to be forced into urban environments when they don't want to be.

I suspect many people who choose to live in Wheeler Park will choose to do so freely and I am willing to wager that the vast majority of them - had Wheeler Park not be available, would have been in a typical subdivision otherwise.

If you are going to use that logic, then to stay in our most natural state, we should not communicate via the phone or internet. We should only communicate with someone when we are there with them physically. Jefferson and Washington were born before the invention of the vehicle, so they had no reason not to plan walkable cities. I am not sure I understand your reasoning.

So if we find that things that were considered progress, like freeways and driving four blocks instead of walking, aren't healthy or good for the environment, we shouldn't look to the past for solutions?

If you are going to use that logic, then to stay in our most natural state, we should not communicate via the phone or internet. We should only communicate with someone when we are there with them physically. Jefferson and Washington were born before the invention of the vehicle, so they had no reason not to plan walkable cities. I am not sure I understand your reasoning.

About a century ago, people drank water with radium in it because they thought it "invigorated" them with its radiation. Not all progress is good.

I suspect many people who choose to live in Wheeler Park will choose to do so freely and I am willing to wager that the vast majority of them - had Wheeler Park not be available, would have been in a typical subdivision otherwise.

99% this.

New waterfront neighborhood planned for Oklahoma City | Better! Cities & Towns Online (http://bettercities.net/article/new-waterfront-neighborhood-planned-oklahoma-city-21214)

The Oklahomen?

Here is a very old song that sums up the feelings of many Americans and why urban communities are such a hard sell in this country.

Oh, give me land, lots of land, under starry skies above
Don't fence me in
Let me ride thru the wide-open country that I love
Don't fence me in
Let me be by myself in the evening breeze
Listen to the murmur of the cottonwood trees
Send me off forever, but I ask you please
Don't fence me in

Just turn me loose
Let me straddle my old saddle underneath the western skies
On my cayuse
Let me wander over yonder till I see the mountains rise
I want to ride to the ridge where the West commences
Gaze at the moon until I lose my senses
I can't look at hobbles and I can't stand fences
Don't fence me in

I love the romanticism of the American West. However, modern suburban tract housing is not such an experience. My backyard in a 1950s 1200 square foot home is 2-3 times larger than some of my friends' yards in $300,000+ homes in Edmond. Talk about being fenced in. New urbanism is not about living on top of each other, but is rather a return to small town America where neighborhoods were built on a human scale. The Wheeler District will have enough density without feeling crowded, plus a farm and river in its back and front yards.

I understand your point. But one could also say that dense urban areas have there own polution problems which are unhealthy and bad for the enviroment as well.
So if we find that things that were considered progress, like freeways and driving four blocks instead of walking, aren't healthy or good for the environment, we shouldn't look to the past for solutions?

I would argue that living an active, healthy lifestyle in a somewhat polluted environment, is much healthier than living a sedentary lifestyle in a somewhat less-polluted environment.

If you are active, there's a good chance that your body is constantly cleansing itself because fluids are always in motion. Yet, sitting stationary any toxins that enter will just soak in to your body and/or take time to cleanse.

I went to high school with a guy who had pretty bad acne. He joined the military when he graduated, I saw him several weeks after he got out of boot camp. Face as clean as could be. He told me he sweated so much, that even being around heavy machinery and blowing dirt all day, all the sweat cleansed his skin pores. I believe the same is probably true for the internals. Stay active, and your body will keep itself cleansed.

I understand there has also been some discussion about a possible carousel near the Ferris wheel location. I happened to see a news story about this on TV a few days so here's Blair's opportunity.

Casino Pier carousel set for auction (http://www.courierpostonline.com/story/news/local/new-jersey/2014/07/14/casino-pier-carousel-set-auction/12656749/)

Here is an update by Steve


Blair Humphreys is in discussions with potential developers and plenty of work is going on behind the scenes. I suspect we will hear more later this year.

- OKC Central Chat transcript, Aug. 22, 2014 | News OK (http://newsok.com/okc-central-chat-transcript-aug.-22-2014/article/5334791)

Also, shouldn't this thread be renamed 'Wheeler District'?