Despite popular belief, grammar and style are still important--even on the internet. Despite the supposed injustice of it all, how you write, how you spell, how you punctuate all have a bearing on whether your readers believe you are a person worth reading. In this thread, we give style and grammar tips for better internet writing, for example:

Apostrophes do not make words plural. Apostrophes do not need to precede the letter s when it happens to be at the end of a word.

Don't ever write in all caps. Not even when you think you need to in order to place emphasis on a certain word. Let your writing do that.

Also, if anyone has any grammar/style questions, ask away.

http://www.angryflower.com/bobsqu.gif

http://ncowie.files.wordpress.com/2008/03/angry-flower-guide-to-its.gif

are still important -- even on the internet.

These spaces are not suppose to be here. Grammar correction "are still important--even on the internet". Thanks ;)

No, thank you! I've been using em dashes wrongly for a long time now.

these spaces are not suppose to be here. Grammar correction "are still important—even on the internet". Thanks ;)
FTFY! If we're going to be extremely pedantic in this thread we might as well make use of the em dash. :smile:

FTFY! If we're going to be extremely pedantic in this thread we might as well make use of the em dash. :smile:

I'm glad he brought it to my attention. I've been using em dashes incorrectly for years now. No one is advocating being overly pedantic, but we can all work on our grammar and style.

The internet has created a generation of lazy writers. Why should we tolerate and accept poor grammar simply because this is supposedly an informal means of communication?

Consider the following analogy:

Though it may be arguably acceptable to wear a mullet, wouldn't one typically be better served wearing a hair style which won't draw scoffs behind your back? Writing, just like really awful hair, tells us what kind of a person you are. It's how you choose to appear to your audience.

I'm not asking that we harshly criticize fellow posters for failing to closely follow MLA guidelines; but I, as well as many here will think less of a writer who doesn't know the difference between affect (the verb) and effect (usually a noun).

I'm glad he brought it to my attention. I've been using em dashes incorrectly for years now. No one is advocating being overly pedantic, but we can all work on our grammar and style.
Oh believe me, I love the thread idea! I just changed his "--" to an actual em dash (—).

I think y'all might be reptilians..............

I think y'all might be reptilians..............

There, their, they're. I usually see the second one misused for the third.

No, thank you! I've been using em dashes wrongly for a long time now.

I got a good laugh out of your thread so I figured you wouldn't mind the correction. Too bad the other guy took it the wrong way, lol.

Mid, I will agree with your thread topic to some extent, but this isn't an English class. While care should be given to spelling and punctuation, etc., it's basically an exchange of thoughts, ideas and opinions which boils down to a written conversation. I don't demean anyone for their grammatical mistakes and I know I have committed some of the same "crimes" against grammar that you list. As long as the person's thought can be ascertained from their posting, then fine. Keep in mind, when a conversation is going, there sometimes isn't enough time to pour through the posting to catch every error.

And sum write as they speak in casual settings, and jus' let da chips fall whar they may (just in case ya dinna know it's sometimes down right deliberate)

Mid, I will agree with your thread topic to some extent, but this isn't an English class. While care should be given to spelling and punctuation, etc., it's basically an exchange of thoughts, ideas and opinions which boils down to a written conversation.

And why should a writer not endeavor to be correct? Sometimes, as Kevin says, it's okay to break the rules. I am convinced, however, that Kevin knows the rules and breaks them for more effective, colorful communication rather than because he is ignorant of the rules, sloppy, or just doesn't care.


I don't demean anyone for their grammatical mistakes and I know I have committed some of the same "crimes" against grammar that you list. As long as the person's thought can be ascertained from their posting, then fine. Keep in mind, when a conversation is going, there sometimes isn't enough time to pour through the posting to catch every error.

But you can always try to get it right. No one is perfect. That said, as a culture, we need to value our language more. It's part of our culture--part of who we are. Other cultures and countries have bodies such as the Académie Française which actually protect the integrity of the language and pass clear rules as to its use. In the U.S., we have several different sets. In academia, we have MLA, APA and Chicago -- all of which have different, but similar, rules. And from there, we have numerous (probably hundreds) of grammar guides out there [I favor Garner's Modern American Usage if anyone cares], and again, within those there are numerous differences.

Still though, there are quite a few simple rules which you need to know in order to effectively communicate, and yes, I think you should have enough respect for your fellow posters to at least attempt to care. Grammar isn't just about following rules, it's about clear communication.

And no, I'm not here to demean you or anyone else. I only want to help you and receive help myself. I already learned I've been improperly using em dashes.

http://graphjam.files.wordpress.com/2010/05/129183712227979846.png

And why should a writer not endeavor to be correct? Sometimes, as Kevin says, it's okay to break the rules. I am convinced, however, that Kevin knows the rules and breaks them for more effective, colorful communication rather than because he is ignorant of the rules, sloppy, or just doesn't care.

Mid, all in all, my posts for what they are worth, are fairly spelling-accurate but not perfect and I will be the first to admit I use dashes and occasionally capitalize words I want to emphasize. If I were writing a legal brief or a newsletter or an article for the paper then I will agree it is very important to "follow the rules" as much as possible. But posting on a chat forum is written conversation. Its less formal. I will agree that some posters don't make themselves clear a great deal of the time. Being understood is the important thing.

Omg why our u h8ing so mutch on grammer. <3 not h8.

Omg why our u h8ing so mutch on grammer. <3 not h8.

:LolLolLol

I think y'all might be reptilians..............

You mean...like V's??? or is it Vs? waitaminute....

These spaces are not supposed to be here.

ftfy. xoxo -M

This thread makes too much sense.... eet ill nevur wurk

You mean...like V's??? or is it Vs? waitaminute....

It's generally acceptable to use the apostrophe s to show the plural of a lowercase letter, e.g., v's. It is verboten to use it to show the plural of an uppercase letter.

Isn't verboten a German word?
Didn"t we fight a war so we wouldn't have speak German?

I don't think anyone should stress out too much about any of it, at least not on an ongoing discussion forum. Yes, it's best to use proper grammar, but using -- for the em seems perfectly acceptable. I read an "Internet Grammar Guide" once that said discussion forums where thoughts are running fast should not be as big of a concern as if one were constructing a static blog post (which should be close to perfect, imo). There's a difference. At least none of us here shrtn evrthng so we keep w/in T/'s 140 char limt or use cell-phone speak. Now THAT would drive me crazy. Sorry for the all caps "that," but it would. Drive. Me. Crazy. Oops! See? Too many variables to stress out over on a discussion board. Apologies to Strunk & White. Oh, and while anybody could find hundreds of cases of improper grammar by me in a theoretical sense, I should admit to having majored in Literature (not English, but Literature). I was once told by Stephen King who was speaking at a conference in Iowa, (and this from a guy who wrote a book about writing well (http://www.amazon.com/Writing-Stephen-King/dp/0743455967)), that outside of the very basics, the only rule in writing is that there are no rules.

Isn't verboten a German word?
Didn"t we fight a war so we wouldn't have speak German?

We also fought a war to not speak the King's English anymore either, but that's a different story...:dizzy:

It's generally acceptable to use the apostrophe s to show the plural of a lowercase letter, e.g., v's. It is verboten to use it to show the plural of an uppercase letter.

So....it would be Vs? That looks too weird, honestly, and I also think it would be confusing with the abbreviation for versus....

Versus would have a period after it and I can't think of when it'd end a sentence.

I don't know about being too harsh on message boards, but I do know that I find it very difficult to take anyone seriously who doesn't know the difference between loose and lose, their, they're and there, here and hear, and so forth. I also find it difficult to understand people when they write on message boards in text-speak. If I wanted to read that, I would confiscate more phones from my students.

You never know who's reading.

I'm glad we have this thread. I can come on here and ask questions from time to time, because there are still many things I am fuzzy on.

Here's one I heard last night from KOCO: "BP has ran through...".

Now, shouldn't that be "BP has run through..."?

I dun't car...... I ain't changin' the way I write......my daughter----the English teacher to be hates me because I don't use good grammer. --Oh well.....life goes on--

My main problem, besides not being a good speller, is that I can't see and my letters are worn off my keyboard.

One mistake I see that no one seems to mention, but that drives me crazy, is writing "of" when you mean "have". ("Could of", "should of", etc.)

Coulda, woulda, shoulda.

One mistake I see that no one seems to mention, but that drives me crazy, is writing "of" when you mean "have". ("Could of", "should of", etc.)

I saw that on one of our threads just yesterday. But the one that REALLY threw me yesterday was by one of our well spoken contributors who used "supposivly." I nearly wet my pants. And a couple of regulars use "dinna" for didn't. Where does THAT come from? Are they spelling it like they say it like I sometimes use "sumpin" for something, or what. I can't help but cringe when I see it. I wonder whose nerves my quirks get on? :ohno:

Our language is getting so butchered lately. I just heard Amy McRee last night pronounce "hanger" in the same way you'd say "linger". She massacred the "g", just like Jessica Schambach does when she says "singer". And I've heard Wendell Edwards butcher it too. Wow, guys, is Linda Cavanaugh the only articulate anchor in this market, or does she do these things too?

And don't even get me started on how all our news people fail to pronounce "tour" correctly. It is not the same as "tore"! You do not "tore" a neighborhood looking for damage after a storm.

If my only fault is that I misspell or improperly pronounce a few words, I consider myself to be damn lucky. I can offer anyone a 100%. money back guarantee that the world will not end because I do. (or is that due or dew)

Our language is getting so butchered lately. I just heard Amy McRee last night pronounce "hanger" in the same way you'd say "linger". She massacred the "g", just like Jessica Schambach does when she says "singer". And I've heard Wendell Edwards butcher it too. Wow, guys, is Linda Cavanaugh the only articulate anchor in this market, or does she do these things too?

And don't even get me started on how all our news people fail to pronounce "tour" correctly. It is not the same as "tore"! You do not "tore" a neighborhood looking for damage after a storm.

You have stated this exceptionally well. "Tour" pronounced as "tore" sounds like fingernails on a chalkboard to us.

What an excellent thread! As an old, and I do stress "old," grammar teacher, I appreciate those who are trying to improve the use of grammar on a public forum.

My personal pet peeves are split infinitives, misplaced modifiers, comma errors, misused prepositions, and all of the examples cited in the posts above. While some errors are actually good for a chuckle, others add confusion to what the writer is trying to say. If poor usage detracts from the communication, the message can be lost.

Personally, when I write on a forum, I always try to use correct usage and punctuation; however, there are times when I'm in a rush, or I'm not paying attention, and errors slip through. Yet, there is one thing I have learned about grammar and usage: consult a variety of sources, and you will find a variety of "accepted" approaches. The "old" style often relies more upon commas, which are often missing in more modern rules. Commas, as all punctuation marks, are useful for clarification, but there are many who would disagree, and I would never criticize someone for their usage, even if I thought it wrong.

Split infinitives are not improper according to any current grammar guide. The belief that they are incorrect stems from the treating of English as a romance language where split infinitives actually are verboten.

We got into a debate on this subject at the office. The only authority the other side of said debate could come up with to support his view that split infinitives are improper was a circa 1962 MLA Style Sheet, which as far as I can verify no longer says anything about split infinitives being improper per se.

I saw that on one of our threads just yesterday. But the one that REALLY threw me yesterday was by one of our well spoken contributors who used "supposivly." I nearly wet my pants. And a couple of regulars use "dinna" for didn't. Where does THAT come from? Are they spelling it like they say it like I sometimes use "sumpin" for something, or what. I can't help but cringe when I see it. I wonder whose nerves my quirks get on? :ohno:

When I see "dinna" for "didn't" I just assume the poster is inferring a Scots accent.

When I see "dinna" for "didn't" I just assume the poster is inferring a Scots accent.

Sorta like when music snoots refer to McCartney as Macca and then seem all horiffied and all when I have to say, "WHO?"

Sorta like when music snoots refer to McCartney as Macca and then seem all horiffied and all when I have to say, "WHO?"

Guess I'm not a music snoot; never heard of Macca. What do they call John, Lenny?

Split infinitives are not improper according to any current grammar guide. The belief that they are incorrect stems from the treating of English as a romance language where split infinitives actually are verboten.

We got into a debate on this subject at the office. The only authority the other side of said debate could come up with to support his view that split infinitives are improper was a circa 1962 MLA Style Sheet, which as far as I can verify no longer says anything about split infinitives being improper per se.

Precisely my point about consulting a variety of sources! Had you had the English teacher I had when in high school back in the dark ages, the English teacher who deducted one letter grade for each grammatical error committed in a written paper, you would understand that while a split infinitive might now be considered acceptable, there are some of us who still feel the old fingernails on the chalkboard when we read it or hear it. :dizzy:

Likewise, had you had the graduate committee that I did, the committee that read every footnote and questioned every sentence, not only for content, but also for usage, you would see why it is difficult for me to accept the "new" usages easily.

All that being said, though, I'm an Okie, a realist, and a pragmatist. :whiteflag I can accept the occasional split infinitive much more rapidly than I can accept a statement such as, "He did it on accident." So, if I had to rank my pet peeves in grammar, misuse of prepositions probably runs to the top of the chart.

I love everyone on this thread.

Precisely my point about consulting a variety of sources! Had you had the English teacher I had when in high school back in the dark ages, the English teacher who deducted one letter grade for each grammatical error committed in a written paper, you would understand that while a split infinitive might now be considered acceptable, there are some of us who still feel the old fingernails on the chalkboard when we read it or hear it. :dizzy:

Likewise, had you had the graduate committee that I did, the committee that read every footnote and questioned every sentence, not only for content, but also for usage, you would see why it is difficult for me to accept the "new" usages easily.

All that being said, though, I'm an Okie, a realist, and a pragmatist. :whiteflag I can accept the occasional split infinitive much more rapidly than I can accept a statement such as, "He did it on accident." So, if I had to rank my pet peeves in grammar, misuse of prepositions probably runs to the top of the chart.

Your graduate committee was well out of step with the mainstream.

Was Gene Roddenberry's Star Trek opening "...to boldly go where no man has gone before" grammatically erroneous? "To go boldly where no man has gone before" just doesn't have the same ring to it.

The "new" usages have been around since grammar guides existed. A preponderance once accepted the notion that split infinitives are absolutely forbidden. That is no longer the case. I may have mentioned before, my primary grammar guide (a law office probably only needs one) is Garner's Modern American Usage. It basically scoffs at this split infinitive notion and casts it aside as an example of the prescriptive school of grammar overstepping and creating rules where rules don't need to exist.

Your graduate committee was well out of step with the mainstream.

Was Gene Roddenberry's Star Trek opening "...to boldly go where no man has gone before" grammatically erroneous? "To go boldly where no man has gone before" just doesn't have the same ring to it.

The "new" usages have been around since grammar guides existed. A preponderance once accepted the notion that split infinitives are absolutely forbidden. That is no longer the case. I may have mentioned before, my primary grammar guide (a law office probably only needs one) is Garner's Modern American Usage. It basically scoffs at this split infinitive notion and casts it aside as an example of the prescriptive school of grammar overstepping and creating rules where rules don't need to exist.

Alas, God rest their souls, my graduate committee was very "old school," and all are deceased, save one, I believe who is still living, but I am not sure. It was thirty years ago.

"To boldly go" does have a wow factor; I won't argue the point. In fact, I'm too old to argue much of anything any more; it requires effort that I'd rather save for trying to do other things. :doh:

Of all the college courses I took (and there were many), two courses in "business communications" and one on "British grammar" were the most useful to me in all that I would later do in life. Ironic, isn't it? I loved teaching grammar to secondary school students; most of them hated it.

I recognize that "expediency" rules in much of what is written today. Every comma in print media takes up a space, and spaces are money to that struggling industry. Further, no one wants to wade through line after line of writing on an Internet forum. But being succinct doesn't mean that one has to surrender all of one's training. [I am teasing here. The use of "one" is so over-the-top; I think it's hilarious to read it! :LolLolLol]

This is a fun thread!

"To boldly go" does have a wow factor; I won't argue the point. In fact, I'm too old to argue much of anything any more; it requires effort that I'd rather save for trying to do other things.

Like remembering to keep breathing!! <vbg>

Like remembering to keep breathing!! <vbg>

AMEN! Oops, I'm not supposed to use all caps, even though remembering to keep breathing is essential. :kicking: Now, if I could just remember to remember where I put the car keys....

AMEN! Oops, I'm not supposed to use all caps, even though remembering to keep breathing is essential. :kicking: Now, if I could just remember to remember where I put the car keys....

The all caps is okay every now and then. You know, the thing about message boards is that it's sometimes the playing with the writing that allows personality to come through in discussions that, otherwise, might seem dry and leave open questions regarding intent. Back and forth discussions in a forum are just different than crafting a static article for mass consumption on the web.