Bricktown may soon offer an answer to retail woes
BY STEVE LACKMEYER
Published: April 28, 2010

Jim Cowan denies any exaggeration is at play when he suggests the need for more retail in Bricktown is mentioned "every minute of every day.”

Despite gaining a reputation as the state’s premier urban entertainment destination, the historic warehouse district is home to restaurants, bars and entertainment venues but few shops. Cowan, the Bricktown Association director, admits that what is still missing is a critical mass of retail shops.

For the rest of Steve's article:

NewsOK (http://newsok.com/bricktown-may-soon-offer-an-answer-to-retail-woes/article/3457376?custom_click=lead_story_title)

This could go either way. If they can get some small, but higher end boutiquey type tenants, it may help the retail downtown. If it ends up being a flea market, it may prevent the area from being anything else but that in the long run.

But that may be okay, too. I'm kind of hoping for midtown to become our boutique hub. Mid Town basically needs to take Campus Corner's mix and layout and import it into the district, imo. Bricktown may only end up being tourist shopping, like gifts and trinkets, but I think Mid Town is close enough to some local money that it could do both.

This isn't the retail Bricktown needs. It will fill a nich but appears to be little more than a flea market. Downtown retail needs someone with vision and deep pockets. OKC doesn't need 60 or 80 booths in a single building - it needs 60 to 80 stores in a large shopping district.

St. John's Town Center - Jacksonville

http://www.eujacksonville.com/pages/04-26-07/st_johns_town_center_FEATURE.jpg

http://images.apple.com/retail/images/store_photos/photo_stjohnstowncenter.jpg

http://cache.virtualtourist.com/2012984-Maggianos_Little_Italy-Jacksonville.jpg

http://image40.webshots.com/40/9/50/76/303695076hKHwbw_ph.jpg

I concur with the previous postings.

I see Bricktown as more of a tourist location and Mid Town more of a resident location.

I'm sure the tenant mix selected by the owners of Red Dirt Emporium will be quality and not just flea market junk- if you've ever been in the store, it is a very nice, well-designed gift store with quality products. The managers there are very aware of what looks good. Besides that, this concept has already proven it can be pretty classy- check out the market that is inside the old movie theater building by Quail Springs Mall- I think it's called Antique Market but it has a lot of crafts, clothing, etc.

Yes, Bricktown needs a large quantity of nice stores. But those stores, especially national chains, aren't going to appear overnight, and Bricktown has to become a retail destination before those large stores can thrive. This is a great way to jumpstart Bricktown's retail economy by creating retail traffic in Bricktown. It allows new, small retail businesses to start up in Bricktown without all the high overhead costs of renting and remodeling a large expensive space. Maybe then they can build a following and eventually move into their own retail spaces, so that the marketplace could serve as a retail incubator (as Huntington mentions in the article).

This is an answer to what Bricktown retail needs (a higher volume of retail traffic) and it is extremely positive news for the future of Bricktown retail. Not to mention tourists will finally have somewhere to spend an hour or two wandering these small booth spaces when they feel like shopping.

This isn't the retail Bricktown needs. It will fill a nich but appears to be little more than a flea market. Downtown retail needs someone with vision and deep pockets. OKC doesn't need 60 or 80 booths in a single building - it needs 60 to 80 stores in a large shopping district.

St. John's Town Center - Jacksonville

http://www.eujacksonville.com/pages/04-26-07/st_johns_town_center_FEATURE.jpg

http://images.apple.com/retail/images/store_photos/photo_stjohnstowncenter.jpg

http://cache.virtualtourist.com/2012984-Maggianos_Little_Italy-Jacksonville.jpg

http://image40.webshots.com/40/9/50/76/303695076hKHwbw_ph.jpg

The top picture looks like on outlet mall.

I agree, for retail to take off, we need more than kitchy crap. How many crystal dolphins and gold leaf salt and pepper shakers can Nonna's sell or how many Oklahoma postcards, tshirts, CD's, etc. can Red Dirt sell before retail takes off? We need DESTINATION retail for locals before retail will survive. If we had an Urban Outfitters, H&M, or other retailer, people would drive all over the state to shop there and locals would come on a regular basis. Tourism can only support so much, such as the kind of retail we have. We need everyday retail and not touristy knick knack. I'm not bashing what Red Dirt or Nonna's is doing, at least they are doing something and it's a start, but it won't bring us the retail we desire. I respect Hunington (Urbanized) and what he does, but we need a quality development on the scale that Bob Funk originally proposed on the lot in front of Coca-Cola Center, now that would attract some national tenants that we despirately need. Any way we can get him to revisit his idea now that we know Bricktown Ballpark won't be expanded in MAPS3 (and shouldn't be since it's not designed for a soccer stadium type expansion)? And don't even get me started on Bass Pro Shops fiasco.

What's wrong with the stores we got?

I mean, the stores we got sell stuff pretty good don't they?

I ain't never heard nobody complain about the stores we have, they sell stuff pretty good - Bass Pro, uh what's the name of some of them other stores?

</obscure?>

Metro, the problem with Funk's promises of all the retailers he mentioned is that they were promises - nothing more. There was nothing from said retailers indicating they ever had an interest in coming here.

This is true, Steve, but we do have a chicken and the egg problem. We don't many developments in the city into which many retailers could locate if they wanted to. Oklahoma City retail has been developed primarily for strip center/big box merchants. Classen Curve is a slight deviation from this strategy, but we still have no developments that provide a dense pedestrian focused environment for 2,000 to 10,000 square foot type merchants with the exception of a couple of modest suburban type malls, which really isn't what a lot of retailers or shoppers are looking for today. In the metro, Campus Corner is the closest we have to this. Even Western is too spread out to make a real impact.

It will probably take spec development that is committed to developing a new type of retail experience in Oklahoma City. The only place I really see left to do this is in mid town, as there is some established merchants there, tons of empty space for new development, easy access to some good demographics with real potential of developing some true resident density of its own over time. But, this will take someone who has a real vision for the retail mix and overall shopping environment that has actually looked at these types of developments around the country. Lower Bricktown would have been a natural for this, but it never really even attempted it and has no where left to go, unless, of course they're ready to part with some of their precious surface lots. But even then, it can't really bridge the tourism/local gap like Mid Town could. If the street car connects the core convention/tourist area to mid town, then we may finally have a shot at some interesting quality retail in Oklahoma City.

What amazes me here is what I see over and over again, at least implied, is a community that is basically begging for a Victory/Power and Light District in Core to Shore and Bricktown be damned...
Be careful what you ask for ...

Steve. I don't see that at all. I can bring up many posts by numerous members of this site and on others as well, it's pretty much the general consensus, where people are more concerned about Bricktown and the rest of Downtown's viability versus a Core to Shore retail district. I'm just not sure what community you are referring to because a majority of people on this board want Bricktown to be what it's supposed to be. It just hasn't lived up to those expectations.

I do think this is a good step forward. Hopefully, it gets the ball moving.

What amazes me here is what I see over and over again, at least implied, is a community that is basically begging for a Victory/Power and Light District in Core to Shore and Bricktown be damned...
Be careful what you ask for ...

I think Steve is absolutely right. We need to do all we can to spur retail development in Bricktown and not be looking for other places to let the process begin (at least in the city core). To do so would be writing off our crown jewel of downtown Oklahoma City. It would come back to bite us.

I see the project in Steve's article as an attempt to do something. That's good news. It may not be Macy's on the canal, but it's an injection of new ideas and good thinking to develop some retail without locking out so many who don't have the access to huge capital outlays.

What amazes me here is what I see over and over again, at least implied, is a community that is basically begging for a Victory/Power and Light District in Core to Shore and Bricktown be damned...
Be careful what you ask for ...

Bricktown has been damned as far as retail is concerned. Bass Pro and Lower Bricktown set the tone. It was planned for a single big box store without even planning more storefronts to feed off it. It basically has two anchors that are anchoring nothing with no chance to add any more.

The best chance for retail in Bricktown has always been new development due to the layout and the fact it was originally a warehouse district with little natural storefronts. Sure, someone could convert one of the buildings to smaller storefronts, but has anyone even attempted or have any clue how to do this? Retail along the lower part of the canal is a natural, imo, but that opportunity is gone, probably for a very long time. Funk at least had the right idea and represented the last place to create more storefronts with new development that could still be tied to the canal and other marquee bricktown assets.

I agree that banking on Core to Shore is foolish, mainly because it is a long way away and it is a blank slate. It will be 10 years before it even has any kind of identity, if that. We need to actually capitalize on what's already going on, but in a less wasteful and more synergistic way going forward. I think it is now so much easier to see the retail potential in Mid Town than it is anywhere else near the core. Given the right moves and we could easily see a real retail district downtown by way of mid town by the time core to shore breaks ground on its first building.

I also question this mentality of "if it's a small retailer, then it's not worthy of our time and not what we want or expect." Extrapolate that attitude to the city's corporate community 20 years ago and you don't have Devon or Chesapeake....

I think small retailers is what we need, but this is really small. Hopefully, some will take off and want their own storefronts. But they won't go in Bricktown, because there is no place for them to go...

I think North Pole City would be a good match fof East Bricktown. There are several Christmas stores around the country and all seem to be successfull. Bronners Christmas Wonderland (http://www.bronners.com/)
They are tearing down Stewart's east to Lincoln and will leave plenty of space for retail. It could be marketed at mid to high quality shops.

People complained about the lack of a grocery downtown. Sage offered it. People didn't shop there. The market is gone.
People complained about the lack of clothing stores downtown. LIT and Firefly opened. Not enough people shopped at the stores. They closed.
I could go on with this, but of all the people and entities usually criticized on this board, I'm wondering if I dare suggest that some blame might lie on the one "sacred cow" on OKC Talk... (gasp! do I dare?)

I'm wondering if I dare suggest that some blame might lie on the one "sacred cow" on OKC Talk... (gasp! do I dare?)

Steve has a point. I agree that a lot of the blame falls on Doug Loudenback.

If you think Urban Outfitters is coming to the canal before the canal is established as a retail destination, I don't know what to tell you!

The only thing that I can think of that could draw bigger retailers (with no intermediary step of having small retailers) would be all the property owners on the canal joining up, marketing their retail space at the same reasonable price, and treating all the retail spaces on the canal and street level as a single development, as if it were a newly constructed strip mall. They could then allow retailers to sign leases that would be contingent on more of the spaces being filled. Similar procedure to pre-leasing for a speculative retail development, except the buildings already exist.

This is 6,000 sf of new retail, with potentially 60 or more small businesses! They will be selling unique or locally crafted items, which is exactly what thousands of visitors to Bricktown have been asking for every month! Very exciting that some of this demand will be filled.

Nope, not Doug.
But I do wonder if there is a way to create a digital mirror that could pop-up on forums to inform certain chronic critics who is to blame for whatever they're complaining about.

People complained about the lack of a grocery downtown. Sage offered it. People didn't shop there. The market is gone.
People complained about the lack of clothing stores downtown. LIT and Firefly opened. Not enough people shopped at the stores. They closed.
I could go on with this, but of all the people and entities usually criticized on this board, I'm wondering if I dare suggest that some blame might lie on the one "sacred cow" on OKC Talk... (gasp! do I dare?)

Sorry, not a valid argument. Yeah, people are want a grocery store and clothing stores, etc. But I've heard legit criticism of the very stores you mention. Steve's argument is akin to saying, "You wanted a clothing store, but when "Affliction T-Shirts Only" opened up NONE of you went there, so stop complaining." I want a clothing store, but don't expect me to shop at one just for the sake of shopping at one. If they don't offer a product (and a price) people want, they won't get the business. So, it's not just enough to open a store filled with stuff no one wants (or they do want, but it's priced 400% too high) and expect people to shop there because they said they wanted the general category of store to open. That goes for any prospective retailer that will go in Bricktown.

Well King, you can either be a part of the solution or... you can complain on OKC Talk. Once again, going after the sacred cow on the chat board is definitely not welcomed...

Something like the boardwalk in Shreveport would be perfect.

Nope, not Doug.
But I do wonder if there is a way to create a digital mirror that could pop-up on forums to inform certain chronic critics who is to blame for whatever they're complaining about.

:LolLolLol
now THAT would be one whale of an app if it existed.

Just have a lil' Whose to blame? link that open up a full screen window for a mirror.

People complained about the lack of a grocery downtown. Sage offered it. People didn't shop there. The market is gone.
People complained about the lack of clothing stores downtown. LIT and Firefly opened. Not enough people shopped at the stores. They closed.
I could go on with this, but of all the people and entities usually criticized on this board, I'm wondering if I dare suggest that some blame might lie on the one "sacred cow" on OKC Talk... (gasp! do I dare?)

That's a far stretch, as king states, if you don't wear Affliction T-shirts and $250 Ed Hardy jeans with a tiger on the pocket ,we're critics and don't put the money where our mouths is?

As far as Sage being a grocery store, it never was, it was a glorified gourmet convenient store. A BIGGGGG difference between it and say Whole Foods or Trader Joes which are destinations that would draw from all over the metro. Sage has horrible marketing strategies and numerous people I know downtown including many you respect don't get their ideas. They have a "club" in their catering room. Their market quit carrying milk, bread, and staples early on. Far from being a grocery store that could even meet staple needs.


Sorry, not a valid argument. Yeah, people are want a grocery store and clothing stores, etc. But I've heard legit criticism of the very stores you mention. Steve's argument is akin to saying, "You wanted a clothing store, but when "Affliction T-Shirts Only" opened up NONE of you went there, so stop complaining." I want a clothing store, but don't expect me to shop at one just for the sake of shopping at one. If they don't offer a product (and a price) people want, they won't get the business. So, it's not just enough to open a store filled with stuff no one wants (or they do want, but it's priced 400% too high) and expect people to shop there because they said they wanted the general category of store to open. That goes for any prospective retailer that will go in Bricktown.

Bingo. You have to give the people what they want, not what the owners think they should need. Obviously their ideas didn't work, doesn't mean Downtown can't support what the demand wants.

I have never seen so many people miss the boat. The only way ANY retail in Dowtown/Bricktown is going to be succesful is if it is destination retail. The place has to be nice enough that just going to it is half the attraction. If someone thinks 40, 60, or 80 booths set up flea market style are going to attract a crowd they're delusional.

Sure other people tried to bring retail to downtown but this one at a time crap isn't going to cut it. It has to be big bang or it isn't going to work, period. You are probably getting tired of it but I will use it as an example again. Before St. Johns Town Center was built it sat on vacant land that wasn't even accessible by car. The roads to the site didn't even exist. The entire development was built for one purpose - and one purpose only - to bring high end retail to Jacksonville. Oklahoma City is going to have to do the same thing or it isn't going to happen.

Someone is going to have to buy up dang near all of Bricktown, renovate all of it, and lease it under one master plan. It isn't going to work any other way unless somehow downtown OKC ends up with 30,000 residents in the near future.

So Metro, when are you going to put your savings at risk and open up a store in Bricktown? I'm also curious where anyone got the idea that the marketplace is going to be a flea market?
;)

So Metro, when are you going to put your savings at risk and open up a store in Bricktown? I'm also curious where anyone got the idea that the marketplace is going to be a flea market?
;)

I think I used the term "flea market style". These are going to be booths rented by individuals with centralized check-out correct? OK - maybe not "flea-market style" but definitely "antique mall style". It might serve a niche but in 10 years no one is going to say this is the idea that saved Bricktown retail.

We can talk about strategies to get retailers to go downtown but they simply will not be coming to Bricktown soon. There are no housetops nearby, little density, parking issues and the demographics suck. If we are looking to lure national retailers it needs to be somewhere else in the city.

We can talk about strategies to get retailers to go downtown but they simply will not be coming to Bricktown soon. There are no housetops nearby, little density, parking issues and the demographics suck. If we are looking to lure national retailers it needs to be somewhere else in the city.

That is why I said it has to be destination retail.

This isn't the retail Bricktown needs. It will fill a nich but appears to be little more than a flea market. Downtown retail needs someone with vision and deep pockets. OKC doesn't need 60 or 80 booths in a single building - it needs 60 to 80 stores in a large shopping district.

St. John's Town Center - Jacksonville

http://www.eujacksonville.com/pages/04-26-07/st_johns_town_center_FEATURE.jpg

http://images.apple.com/retail/images/store_photos/photo_stjohnstowncenter.jpg

http://cache.virtualtourist.com/2012984-Maggianos_Little_Italy-Jacksonville.jpg

http://image40.webshots.com/40/9/50/76/303695076hKHwbw_ph.jpg

I disagree with Kerry a lot, but he's spot on. I'll never understand why everyone thinks Bricktown needs a specialty shop, another tourist trap, another gift shop, another Native American place, etc..

You need your urban basics, there's no avoiding that. You need an Apple store, a GAP, etc..DOWNTOWN. Not Penn Square.

The marketplace is a genius idea for growing locally-owned businesses because it is intended, if I remember correctly from the time Steve introduced me to Chad, to be an incubator of sorts to help businesses grow into Bricktown.

But you still need your "urban basics." An answer to Bricktown's retail woes must involve facing the issue head-on, not with gift shops and tourist-oriented stuff. I hope the marketplace attracts resident-oriented stuff.

bewildered...

I disagree with Kerry a lot, but he's spot on. I'll never understand why everyone thinks Bricktown needs a specialty shop, another tourist trap, another gift shop, another Native American place, etc..

You need your urban basics, there's no avoiding that. You need an Apple store, a GAP, etc..DOWNTOWN. Not Penn Square.

The marketplace is a genius idea for growing locally-owned businesses because it is intended, if I remember correctly from the time Steve introduced me to Chad, to be an incubator of sorts to help businesses grow into Bricktown.

But you still need your "urban basics." An answer to Bricktown's retail woes must involve facing the issue head-on, not with gift shops and tourist-oriented stuff. I hope the marketplace attracts resident-oriented stuff.

Spartan, downtown OKC simply can't support those kinds of store right now so wishing for them is pointless. Criticism of this attempt for retail is ridiculous. Would you rather that the space remain empty? We get countless posts complaining about the empty spaces in Bricktown and now we get the same because some places are being filled. If there was a good market for the kinds of businesses you desire and it would bring a profit it would be offered.

Oh yeah, you're soo certain of those "free market" forces, aren't you? In the good ol' US of A all you need is capitalism on yer side, right?


bewildered...

I'm not attacking the marketplace at all, because it's probably going to be pretty successful and because they're obviously doing a lot more than any of us are in order to evolve Bricktown retail.

All I am saying is that I think telling everyone, and in the process of that, ourselves, that this is the "answer" to Bricktown retail woes is just a set up for disappointment because it's not going to be a savior for the entire district's lack of retail. It's going to be a smaller space that will be vibrant and colorful, so it's the kind of pebble that Bricktown needs to make ripples. And I'm a big proponent of the smaller projects because it truly is what Bricktown needs in order to develop organically..

But one project isn't a solution for a huge problem, I'm just stating this. Right now if it weren't for forces that halted residential development downtown, there would be thousands of new rooftops downtown--more than sufficient to support cause for a grocer and some of these retail stores such as an Apple Store or a GAP. Which by the way, most of these stores (particularly in sprawled cities like OKC) look at demographics and rooftops in a 5-mile radius and NOT a 1-mile radius, contrary to the most popular excuse for no downtown retail..

There IS after all a reason why many, many other cities have downtown retail. Take Louisville (4th Street Live), Ft Worth (Sundance Square), Dallas (flagship Neiman Marcus), Denver (16th Street Mall), and so on.. Calgary has 400+ shops in its downtown area, including many old department stores that we didn't tear down in the 60s. :)

What is the closest book store to Downtown? There's a prime market. What about a bookstore in Bricktown? That might be the biggest opportunity that I see for some kind of retail downtown.

Color me majorly confused again...what "sacred cow"...why would Doug be to blame for retail in Bricktown failing?

Feel free to send a private message if you don't want to post the answer here

People complained about the lack of a grocery downtown. Sage offered it. People didn't shop there. The market is gone.
People complained about the lack of clothing stores downtown. LIT and Firefly opened. Not enough people shopped at the stores. They closed.
I could go on with this, but of all the people and entities usually criticized on this board, I'm wondering if I dare suggest that some blame might lie on the one "sacred cow" on OKC Talk... (gasp! do I dare?)

I didn't realize Sage is gone..

or Lit and Firefly either.

To be fair, Sage had very little in their market. I tried to shop there, but it wasn't worth it to stop in for one thing, and they rarely had more than one thing I needed. Sage restaurant is still there, and they've got a sign up that says they're opening a Jazz lounge next door, which is really cool.

If the new market concept in Bricktown were similar to the one in Covent Garden in London that would be very cool. Those sorts of kiosks do very well with tourists because they sell things that are small, make good gifts and are unique.

Spartan, downtown OKC simply can't support those kinds of store right now so wishing for them is pointless. Criticism of this attempt for retail is ridiculous. Would you rather that the space remain empty? We get countless posts complaining about the empty spaces in Bricktown and now we get the same because some places are being filled. If there was a good market for the kinds of businesses you desire and it would bring a profit it would be offered.

No one is critizing the new retail. We are just qustioning how important it is going to be tothe future of Bricktown.

As for "downtown can't support these kinds of stores" comment; we heard the same thing here in Jacksonville - and then SJTC comes along and traffic on any given day is crazy. People from all over Jacksonville, northeast Florida, and south Georgia come to SJTC. Like I said, just being there is half the attraction. It isn't located in downtown Jax but that is only because downtown Jax didn't have space for a project that size. Unlike OKC, Jax didn't turn 75% of it downtown buildings into parking lots at one point.

This isn' rocket science. How retail works has pretty well been figured out. We already know that small locally owned small niche shops are not going to thrive in Bricktown. How many failures do you need to see before you realize that? Through a Borders/Barnes and Nobel,Books-a-million or a Target Superstore anywhere around downtown and it will probably do pretty well.

I have never seen so many people miss the boat. The only way ANY retail in Dowtown/Bricktown is going to be succesful is if it is destination retail. The place has to be nice enough that just going to it is half the attraction. If someone thinks 40, 60, or 80 booths set up flea market style are going to attract a crowd they're delusional.

Sure other people tried to bring retail to downtown but this one at a time crap isn't going to cut it. It has to be big bang or it isn't going to work, period. You are probably getting tired of it but I will use it as an example again. Before St. Johns Town Center was built it sat on vacant land that wasn't even accessible by car. The roads to the site didn't even exist. The entire development was built for one purpose - and one purpose only - to bring high end retail to Jacksonville. Oklahoma City is going to have to do the same thing or it isn't going to happen.

Someone is going to have to buy up dang near all of Bricktown, renovate all of it, and lease it under one master plan. It isn't going to work any other way unless somehow downtown OKC ends up with 30,000 residents in the near future.

Exactly, it has to be DESTINATION retail, that has been my point.


So Metro, when are you going to put your savings at risk and open up a store in Bricktown? I'm also curious where anyone got the idea that the marketplace is going to be a flea market?
;)

Steve, I don't have to put my money where my mouth is to have an opinion, the same could be said to every other poster on this site including you without retribution from the Oklahoman if we don't agree with it 100% of the time. I am a DT resident and property owner and worked DT up until 7 months ago. Not everyone is called in life to be a retailer in Bricktown but I can have ideas on what would help it along. I also said I wasn't bashing Hunington, but your buddy the headline writer at the Oklahoman sure can be misleading when they title the article, "Bricktown may soon offer an answer to retail woes". Answer being the keyword, THAT is what many of us are questioning. Us Downtowners and Downtown supporters want everyday retail, not niche touristy nick nack. I applaud Huntington for doing something, but to say it could soon provide answer to our retail concerns is far from reality. Also if I ever invest further in DT property, it won't be in overhyped Bricktown, but probably Midtown or C2S area.


I disagree with Kerry a lot, but he's spot on. I'll never understand why everyone thinks Bricktown needs a specialty shop, another tourist trap, another gift shop, another Native American place, etc..

You need your urban basics, there's no avoiding that. You need an Apple store, a GAP, etc..DOWNTOWN. Not Penn Square.

The marketplace is a genius idea for growing locally-owned businesses because it is intended, if I remember correctly from the time Steve introduced me to Chad, to be an incubator of sorts to help businesses grow into Bricktown.

But you still need your "urban basics." An answer to Bricktown's retail woes must involve facing the issue head-on, not with gift shops and tourist-oriented stuff. I hope the marketplace attracts resident-oriented stuff.

I disagree with Spartan often, but this is something we both agree on. We are both in the target audience for what we're trying to attract, we get it. We're in the "trendy" generation crowd (18-35)that has a higher percentage of disposable income and seeks these desireable retailers. We don't need more tourist shops, I mean Steve do you really shop at Nonna's, Red Dirt and Sage for your routine needs? Wear alot of Affliction shirts do ya? Use $7 parmesan butter instead of regular old butter? Need a crystal dolphin pot warmer? We could also disclose that they sell your books in their shop, so their is conflict of interest/bias. Now, no offense and I'm not trying to rile you up, and you know I've bought your books and enjoy them, but I'm just saying.

Us DT'ers and inner city folk need retail we shop at regularly, and to attract it, it has to be destination retail on purpose. We need someone with Bob Funk's mentality, who cares if he didn't provide letters of intent, he was building the type of development that attracts this type of retail.

Spartan, I agree why doesn't Bricktown or Auto Alley have a GAP for crying out loud. Heck, Athens, Georgia has had one for at least ten years in their downtown when I went to school there, they also have one in their mall just down the street. If they can support one in their DT we definitely can. Same goes for Apple store, Full Circle or a Barnes & Noble, Blockbuster, Walgreens, etc. Stuff people actually use on a regular basis.

As I said earlier, I agree the marketplace will be a business incubator, but it won't solve our retail needs, it will just help add to the mix. Again I wholeheartedly agree with Spartan, we need RESIDENT-ORIENTED retail, not Tourist shops. Tourists will shop at a GAP just as a local will, not the other way around.


Oh yeah, you're soo certain of those "free market" forces, aren't you? In the good ol' US of A all you need is capitalism on yer side, right?



I'm not attacking the marketplace at all, because it's probably going to be pretty successful and because they're obviously doing a lot more than any of us are in order to evolve Bricktown retail.

All I am saying is that I think telling everyone, and in the process of that, ourselves, that this is the "answer" to Bricktown retail woes is just a set up for disappointment because it's not going to be a savior for the entire district's lack of retail. It's going to be a smaller space that will be vibrant and colorful, so it's the kind of pebble that Bricktown needs to make ripples. And I'm a big proponent of the smaller projects because it truly is what Bricktown needs in order to develop organically..

But one project isn't a solution for a huge problem, I'm just stating this. Right now if it weren't for forces that halted residential development downtown, there would be thousands of new rooftops downtown--more than sufficient to support cause for a grocer and some of these retail stores such as an Apple Store or a GAP. Which by the way, most of these stores (particularly in sprawled cities like OKC) look at demographics and rooftops in a 5-mile radius and NOT a 1-mile radius, contrary to the most popular excuse for no downtown retail..

There IS after all a reason why many, many other cities have downtown retail. Take Louisville (4th Street Live), Ft Worth (Sundance Square), Dallas (flagship Neiman Marcus), Denver (16th Street Mall), and so on.. Calgary has 400+ shops in its downtown area, including many old department stores that we didn't tear down in the 60s. :)

What is the closest book store to Downtown? There's a prime market. What about a bookstore in Bricktown? That might be the biggest opportunity that I see for some kind of retail downtown.

I know this wasn't directed at me, but I'm all for capitalism but I get your point nonetheless. Totally agree that one project isn't a solution or the key to our success. Why we don't have a book store is beyond me.


I didn't realize Sage is gone..

It's not, just the market. They have really weird marketing strategies, they wouldn't listen to us DT residents on what we wanted them to carry in the market, they turned their catering room next door into some sort of quasi hip-hop club (strange) and their food I've talked to a lot of people that agree it is bland and needs seasoning. I really wanted this place to succeed and I dug their initial concept, but they don't seem to listen to customers very well from my experiences and interactions with other downtowners.


To be fair, Sage had very little in their market. I tried to shop there, but it wasn't worth it to stop in for one thing, and they rarely had more than one thing I needed. Sage restaurant is still there, and they've got a sign up that says they're opening a Jazz lounge next door, which is really cool.

If the new market concept in Bricktown were similar to the one in Covent Garden in London that would be very cool. Those sorts of kiosks do very well with tourists because they sell things that are small, make good gifts and are unique.

Exactly, they wouldn't listen to residents on what we wanted.


No one is critizing the new retail. We are just qustioning how important it is going to be tothe future of Bricktown.

As for "downtown can't support these kinds of stores" comment; we heard the same thing here in Jacksonville - and then SJTC comes along and traffic on any given day is crazy. People from all over Jacksonville, northeast Florida, and south Georgia come to SJTC. Like I said, just being there is half the attraction. It isn't located in downtown Jax but that is only because downtown Jax didn't have space for a project that size. Unlike OKC, Jax didn't turn 75% of it downtown buildings into parking lots at one point.

This isn' rocket science. How retail works has pretty well been figured out. We already know that small locally owned small niche shops are not going to thrive in Bricktown. How many failures do you need to see before you realize that? Through a Borders/Barnes and Nobel,Books-a-million or a Target Superstore anywhere around downtown and it will probably do pretty well.

DING DING DING, Kerry and Spartan get it. We're not criticizing the marketplace as much as we are as this is a solution to the problem. The market is just another option for TOURISTS. And as I mentioned earlier, how many knick knack shops can BT support without national retail still not getting on board. You can only sell so many "I cow tipped in OK" t-shirts. I agree, I think for something that's realistic, would take Full Circle Books or a Walgreens type place to get the ball rolling. I don't think Urban Outfitters is going to be the pioneer, but I do think Walgreens is realistic, and perhaps a national book chain, not sure why Tolbert won't come DT with Full Circle though.

I perceive Bricktown offerings similar to French Quarter. Bricktown's role is OKC's entertainment district. Retail isn't a necessity there.

How many of you attended the Urban Land Institute's recent luncheon on recruiting retail? How many of you who are upset about how things are going have sought to be involved in ULI to get a better grasp on what's going on in the community and what to do to address your concerns?
(The answer I suspect: "Um, no, but I can voice my opinions on the Internet"). Yes, I'm challenging you to do more than gripe - if you don't like the way things are, get involved!

Steve,

You're not being realistic. We're not developers, we are citizens and customers of would be retailers. Not all of us have a job that allows us to go to these things like you where you get paid to do so to report the info back to us. Our jobs are in different fields and that is what makes America great. The ULI events are geared more towards people in the industry and developers, NOT general citizens and consumers.

And to imply I'm not involved is a joke and you know that, I'm far involved in DT issues compared to the average "anonymous" poster. I think this is more about you don't like the way media is evolving, newspaper and online blogs/forums in particular. Are you implying that we should take all of your and Oklahoman articles at face value and agree 100% and not have a right to criticize?

you're not being realistic. We're not developers
lol

Metro, nice shot at a diversion, but it's not working. I'm actually challenging folks to go beyond what I'm writing, what's being written on this site, and to get better informed independently of all media. Are you saying you need to be a developer to be involved with ULI?

Steve, While I agree with you way more often than not, I think that participation on a message board dedicated to Oklahoma City and bettering our community is a lot more than 99% of the people in the city do. Involvement at OKCTalk is a good first step for many, for some it may be the most they do - but I'll gladly celebrate their presence here. There is a lot of griping, but there are also lots of people that offer constructive ideas and thoughts and those are, many times, listened to and acted upon. Also, you must honestly ask yourself how active you would be as far as attending luncheons, etc. if you weren't paid to be there. That's not a slam at you, Steve, that's just food for thought and a plea for being reasonable as far as community participation is concerned. It comes in all forms and varieties and there is only so much time for our work, family, church or other organizations. I think many here do what they can and I, frankly, appreciate the activity here at OKCTalk (whether or not I agree with this or that poster) as a valid act of participation in the affairs of our city.

Steve,

You're not being realistic. We're not developers, we are citizens and customers of would be retailers. Not all of us have a job that allows us to go to these things like you where you get paid to do so to report the info back to us. Our jobs are in different fields and that is what makes America great. The ULI events are geared more towards people in the industry and developers, NOT general citizens and consumers.

And to imply I'm not involved is a joke and you know that, I'm far involved in DT issues compared to the average "anonymous" poster. I think this is more about you don't like the way media is evolving, newspaper and online blogs/forums in particular. Are you implying that we should take all of your and Oklahoman articles at face value and agree 100% and not have a right to criticize? Good points Metro!

I actually attend a lot of meetings and functions "off the clock." And if you show up at the Cox Convention Center at 5:30 p.m. Monday, you'll see where I've invested much of my free time the past three months in trying to get a better understanding of why downtown looks the way it does, why things have happened, and what we might learn from our past. And I'm one of OKCTalk's biggest defenders, believe it or not. I question and challenge OKCTalk because I want it to be a viable voice in this community. Pete is hosting this site as a public service - I see no greed on his behalf, only a love for his old hometown.
But I'm questioning whether it's enough to say "oh, that marketplace is going to be nothing more than a flea market (really???), and we're a failure without big names like Saks." If you listen to the experts - and I'm challenging you to do just that (Metro, I'm sorry, but neither you or I are experts on retail), then you'll find out that Saks ISN'T coming. Nordstrums isn't coming. And in general the major high-end retailers aren't going to come unless we nurture and grow our locally-owned retailers into something that will convince the big high-end retailers OKC is worth a shot.
Now, what's one way to give small retailers a shot at a successful start downtown????

One more comment, then I'm off in the world for the rest of the day.
Definition of flea market:
Websters: a usually open-air market for secondhand articles and antiques; a bazaar, usually outdoors, dealing mainly in cheap, secondhand goods.
Wikipedia: A flea market or swap meet is a type of bazaar where inexpensive or secondhand goods are sold or bartered. It may be indoors, such as in a warehouse or school gymnasium; or it may be outdoors, such as in a field or under a tent.[1] The flea market vendors may range from a family that is renting a table for the first time to sell a few unwanted household items to a commercial operation including a large variety of used merchandise, scouts who rove the region buying items for sale from garage sales and other flea markets, and several staff watching the stalls.

Many flea markets have food vendors who sell snacks and drinks to the patrons,[2] and may be associated with carnivals or concerts.[3] Some have become infamous as outlets for bootleg movies and music[4][5] or knockoff brand clothing, accessories, or fragrances.[6][7]
MacMillan Dictionary: a market where old things are sold at low prices
Business dictionary: Outdoor market utilized by vendors to exchange discounted new or used merchandise for money. Flea markets are usually operated in an outdoor facility and may charge shoppers a minimal fee to enter the premises. The name is said to have derived from a French term in 1920, and may have suggested that some of the second-hand clothing or other goods sold at flea markets might have been infested with fleas.

OK, to those who have described the Bricktown Marketplace as a flea market, exactly what have you read or seen that would indicate the marketplace is going to be a flea market? Or, forgive me, are you just talking out of ignorance?
Bye bye.

http://img580.imageshack.us/img580/2923/xanax45.jpg

The Flea Market At Eastern Market (http://www.easternmarket.net/)

This is an excellent example of a "flea market". It is packed every Saturday and Sunday with a demographic that stretches from middle to upper incomes.

How many of you attended the Urban Land Institute's recent luncheon on recruiting retail? How many of you who are upset about how things are going have sought to be involved in ULI to get a better grasp on what's going on in the community and what to do to address your concerns?
(The answer I suspect: "Um, no, but I can voice my opinions on the Internet"). Yes, I'm challenging you to do more than gripe - if you don't like the way things are, get involved!

I was there, but thats because I am in the business. But I dont think attending is a prerequisite to complain. Most of the posts here bring up valid points. But it all really boils down to the developers. Not so much the city or the chamber, but the real estate folks. Itstough though. The price of developing is high, finding and assembling the right parcels of land is difficult, and lots of experience and deep pockets are needed. Itll happen, but its going to take some time.
And Steve is right, Saks, Nordstroms, Brooks Brothers as well as some other high end retailers...and Ikea are stores that will not be here anytime soon. This is coming from the mouth of these companies. So lets quit naming these stores. However, with the right development we can attract Whole Foods or something similiar, Anthro, Urban Outfitters, Crate & Barrel. Its just going to take some time, money and know how.

Steve, While I agree with you way more often than not, I think that participation on a message board dedicated to Oklahoma City and bettering our community is a lot more than 99% of the people in the city do. Involvement at OKCTalk is a good first step for many, for some it may be the most they do - but I'll gladly celebrate their presence here. There is a lot of griping, but there are also lots of people that offer constructive ideas and thoughts and those are, many times, listened to and acted upon. Also, you must honestly ask yourself how active you would be as far as attending luncheons, etc. if you weren't paid to be there. That's not a slam at you, Steve, that's just food for thought and a plea for being reasonable as far as community participation is concerned. It comes in all forms and varieties and there is only so much time for our work, family, church or other organizations. I think many here do what they can and I, frankly, appreciate the activity here at OKCTalk (whether or not I agree with this or that poster) as a valid act of participation in the affairs of our city.

Agree 100%.

I'd also add that those that view/post here on a regular basis are FAR, FAR more informed about what is happening in the community than those that don't participate. And knowledge is vital to any sort of activism.

My participation at OKCTalk has prompted me to attend the Let's Talk Transit meetings. I wouldn't have even known about it otherwise.

BTW: There is at meeting tonight @6pm in the Hall of Mirrors in the Civic Center. Be there.

Again, I'm not knocking OKC Talk here at all. What I'm doing instead is the unthinkable - challenging those who would proclaim themselves as experts on every topic. I would be the first to admit I'm wrong on some things, and I'm not shy about saying "I don't know" on some things.
But for folks to come on here and say the marketplace is going to be a flea market, when the local definition for that comes from Old Paris the late AMC, well, come on now...
I'm not in a tizzy over this, though I suspect those I've challenged are. I'm saying don't stop with reading the paper, NewsOK, blogs, OKC Talk - if you don't like how things are, if you're confused with what's going on and want to see things change, here are ways to get better informed.
Here's what I guarantee: I don't know everything about retail. I don't have all the answers.
Now I'm waiting for the instant experts to say the same thing.

Metro, nice shot at a diversion, but it's not working. I'm actually challenging folks to go beyond what I'm writing, what's being written on this site, and to get better informed independently of all media. Are you saying you need to be a developer to be involved with ULI?

No diversion, we are going beyond what you are writing and challenging it and you're getting upset over it. And I said nothing that would imply you have to be a developer to be involved with ULI, but you're kidding yourself if you don't think it's geared towards people in the real estate development biz.


Steve, While I agree with you way more often than not, I think that participation on a message board dedicated to Oklahoma City and bettering our community is a lot more than 99% of the people in the city do. Involvement at OKCTalk is a good first step for many, for some it may be the most they do - but I'll gladly celebrate their presence here. There is a lot of griping, but there are also lots of people that offer constructive ideas and thoughts and those are, many times, listened to and acted upon. Also, you must honestly ask yourself how active you would be as far as attending luncheons, etc. if you weren't paid to be there. That's not a slam at you, Steve, that's just food for thought and a plea for being reasonable as far as community participation is concerned. It comes in all forms and varieties and there is only so much time for our work, family, church or other organizations. I think many here do what they can and I, frankly, appreciate the activity here at OKCTalk (whether or not I agree with this or that poster) as a valid act of participation in the affairs of our city.

Exactly my point.


Good points Metro!

Thanks.


I actually attend a lot of meetings and functions "off the clock." And if you show up at the Cox Convention Center at 5:30 p.m. Monday, you'll see where I've invested much of my free time the past three months in trying to get a better understanding of why downtown looks the way it does, why things have happened, and what we might learn from our past. And I'm one of OKCTalk's biggest defenders, believe it or not. I question and challenge OKCTalk because I want it to be a viable voice in this community. Pete is hosting this site as a public service - I see no greed on his behalf, only a love for his old hometown.
But I'm questioning whether it's enough to say "oh, that marketplace is going to be nothing more than a flea market (really???), and we're a failure without big names like Saks." If you listen to the experts - and I'm challenging you to do just that (Metro, I'm sorry, but neither you or I are experts on retail), then you'll find out that Saks ISN'T coming. Nordstrums isn't coming. And in general the major high-end retailers aren't going to come unless we nurture and grow our locally-owned retailers into something that will convince the big high-end retailers OKC is worth a shot.
Now, what's one way to give small retailers a shot at a successful start downtown????

Steve, how many of these meetings you attend off the clock (not sure what that means in journalism world, if that is after 8am-5pm, or not on the company's dime?) but how many of these meetings benefit your job and develop into something you have or could write about? NONE of these meetings could benefit my job, I am involved in all these organizations and go to these meetings strictly for a passion of bettering OKC for everyone. Now, I know you're about that too and not trying to discount it, but some of these meetings give you writing material on the clock or not.



Agree 100%.

I'd also add that those that view/post here on a regular basis are FAR, FAR more informed about what is happening in the community than those that don't participate. And knowledge is vital to any sort of activism.

Well said. The more people I meet, the more I find out how clueless the average citizen is on their home city and what all there is to offer.


Again, I'm not knocking OKC Talk here at all. What I'm doing instead is the unthinkable - challenging those who would proclaim themselves as experts on every topic. I would be the first to admit I'm wrong on some things, and I'm not shy about saying "I don't know" on some things.
But for folks to come on here and say the marketplace is going to be a flea market, when the local definition for that comes from Old Paris the late AMC, well, come on now...
I'm not in a tizzy over this, though I suspect those I've challenged are. I'm saying don't stop with reading the paper, NewsOK, blogs, OKC Talk - if you don't like how things are, if you're confused with what's going on and want to see things change, here are ways to get better informed.
Here's what I guarantee: I don't know everything about retail. I don't have all the answers.
Now I'm waiting for the instant experts to say the same thing.


I find it ironic that you usually call me out everytime, when there are several other posters that disagree, yet two posters I usually disagree with (Spartan and progressiveboy) agree with me on this subject, but somehow you buddy up to Spartan when he often disagrees with the crowd. If you want to challenge us to think deeper, let's call it what it is, it's favoritism. When is it the Oklahoman's job to challenge other media? Do you call out Channel 4,5,9 when they report incorrectly as I hear them on occasion exaggerate or mislead viewers on a story? You know me and you act as if all I do is complain on the internet. You KNOW I've been involved in numerous organizations, been to city council meetings, Urban Renewal meetings, etc. Can a fraction of users on this site say that, and as others said, the posters on this forum are WAY more informed and active than the average OKC Citizen. By your posts in this thread and numerous others, you obviously have an agenda against complainers and anonymous posters. It's the big white elephant in the room.

Steve, Spartan, progressiveboy, Kerry and I have never claimed to be experts on it, but we can have opinions that WE FEEL would be beneficial towards solving the problem. Doesn't mean you have to disagree or discredit our opinions because we're not ULI members. And when did you change to being an opinion writer? Just to clarify, I'M NOT AN EXPERT ON THIS TOPIC so now there is no confusion.

Here's what I guarantee: I don't know everything about retail. I don't have all the answers.
Now I'm waiting for the instant experts to say the same thing.

Okay. Uh, Steve, you don't know everything about retail, and you don't have all the answers.

Not sure what the point of that was, but whatever.

I've not called you out Metro. Do you feel as if you've been called out?
I'm not upset. I'm challenging ideas, asking questions and provoking discussion. It's this very effort some of you applaud when I do the same on SandRidge, Bricktown, others (and then they get upset).
And I've challenged Spartan, MidTowner and others, as they have challenged me. And that's good. I don't mind it. They don't seem to mind either.
I've never seen you at an urban renewal meeting, wouldn't know if you've attended a city council meeting, but I know you're active in Urban Neighbors and that's great. I've not attacked you - I've only dismissed an attempt to divert this into a discussion of old media/new media. And yes, I've challenged other media (evidence the "Mike Morgan incident")
I'm a columnist and writer. That means I'm supposed to go beyond reporting - I'm supposed to provide observation, not opinion, and provoke discussion and ask challenging questions.
Do I always get it right? Of course not. I'm not perfect.
Do I have a problem with anonymous individuals engaging in personal attacks? You bet. It's cowardly. I do think it's important for people to debate politics, question the status quo and not have to worry about their livelihoods.
I think you're taking this personally, and that's unfortunate.

I do when I'm the only one you called out in post #26,# 46,and #49 and you use my quotes in other posts. You are right about the provoking. I haven't been to any recent Urban Renewal meetings because one I can't take off work, and two they rarely post their meetings where the average joe blow can CLEARLY know when it is. I'm not talking a small one liner in the Oklahoman the day before. I'm sure that could be said for 99.9% of the population who doesn't attend.

You still diverted my question about your meetings off company time, do they occasionally or frequently benefit something you have, can or will write a story on? Does posting on this website benefit your blog and career? You claim I was diverting when I wasn't but you fail to answer if these meetings benefit your career. Does the OKChistory project and books benefit your career? I'm not dismissing them, lots of us including myself enjoy them and appreciate the countless hours and sacrifice that went into them. Just provoking discussion and honesty as you seek. The Oklahoman sure doesn't promote full disclosure in their stories, so why should the same be of average joe's on OKCTalk?

Is is cowardly of anonymous leads for your stories and countless media stories? Why only anonymous internet posters are cowards? The internet will continue to be anonymous, the question is how will old media cope with that?