Ford Center Renovation Plan Altered Due To Budget Constraints (http://www.sportsbusinessdaily.com/article/137826)

So they're reconsidering what they said would be done, since they say they didn't make enough off tax collection?

Why did we vote yes (for those who did), if they could alter the plans at any time?

So when the 2010-2011 begins, will we not have what all those PDF docs showed? Namely all of those additions to all floors, a grand entry, and all the other bells and whistles?

I would be in support of extending the tax another six months to a year to get that last $20 million made up.

No one was lied to, what was proposed was all based on budgetary projections which is nowhere near an exact science, that's "life" when building with cash (or a "cash like" funding model). It's still better than issuing bonds and having a 30 year boat anchor tied around your cities credit rating like Dallas has with the American Airlines Center.

Pretty sure we didn't vote on an itemized list of specific upgrades and features. And the renderings certainly weren't shown on the ballot.

I don't see this as a major issue. Any proposed projects approved based on sales tax collections instead of having money already in hand have to have some flexibility to make adjustments based on what money is available. All of the Maps projects are just proposals and are not guaranteed to be exactly the same as originally proposed or hoped for.

So let me see if you are saying this. Don't collect enough tax money to do what was proposed on the Ford Center but spend the money anyway? Sure, I'd rather see the tax collection period lengthened until $X are collected but I am not sure they can word a tax collection law that way and I KNOW they can't once it has already been voted for.

No one anticipated the worst national economic slowdown since the Great Depression - and certainly a severe slowdown in OKC. Tax collection expectations can only be forcasted, just like budgets and just like the weather. Sometimes the forecasts miss. I certainly see no evidence of anyone lying about anything.

Ford Center Renovation Plan Altered Due To Budget Constraints (http://www.sportsbusinessdaily.com/article/137826)

So they're reconsidering what they said would be done, since they say they didn't make enough off tax collection?

Why did we vote yes (for those who did), if they could alter the plans at any time?

So when the 2010-2011 begins, will we not have what all those PDF docs showed? Namely all of those additions to all floors, a grand entry, and all the other bells and whistles?Lied to? Maybe not. Smoke blown-up your a..? Probably. Welcome to the real world. They have to have something for their justification for a MAPS4. Finishing the Ford Center for the forth time is as good a reason as any.

No one was lied to, what was proposed was all based on budgetary projections which is nowhere near an exact science, that's "life" when building with cash (or a "cash like" funding model). It's still better than issuing bonds and having a 30 year boat anchor tied around your cities credit rating like Dallas has with the American Airlines Center.So we are bond debt free?

So we are bond debt free?

Andy, that's not a bad point but has no relation to the Ford Center issue.

Andy, that's not a bad point but has no relation to the Ford Center issue.Fair enough. Someone needs to let bluedogok know. You going to do it, or do you want me to?

Pretty sure we didn't vote on an itemized list of specific upgrades and features. And the renderings certainly weren't shown on the ballot.You have got to be.... nevermind.

Ford Center Renovation Plan Altered Due To Budget Constraints (http://www.sportsbusinessdaily.com/article/137826)

So they're reconsidering what they said would be done, since they say they didn't make enough off tax collection?

Why did we vote yes (for those who did), if they could alter the plans at any time?

So when the 2010-2011 begins, will we not have what all those PDF docs showed? Namely all of those additions to all floors, a grand entry, and all the other bells and whistles?

About the only thing that has been axed is the warm-up court (think it was to be part of the add-on sf but can't recall exactly where). They are looking at cost cutting measures to keep the improvements within the amount of tax collected.


Andy, that's not a bad point but has no relation to the Ford Center issue.

As far as the bond issue question, I haven't read anything to indicate that long term type debt (bond issue) has been used in the case of the Ford Center improvements, but can't categorically rule it out either. I don't have the links handy but $6M in bonds were used for MAPS 3 projects BEFORE we had even voted on it (authorized to use up to $26M). Used to buy properties in the MAPS 3 Central Park area. This bond money went back to at least the 2007 General Obligation bond issue. So again, it is possible that bond money has or could be used to make up the sales tax shortfall (bit reportedly it doesn't look like that is the way they are leaning).

There was however a line of credit taken out by the City to get the Ford Center renovations started since the tax hadn't begun. This is all perfectly legal and language authorizing it was on the ballot and in the ordinance (just like it was with MAPS & MAPS 3 too). While not long term debt, it is still debt and does have to be paid back most likely with interest. I have lost my link to the Oklahoman article reporting this (recall it being a higher amount than in the memo, but again can't swear to it) but from the City Manager's memo to the Council:


Sports Facilities Improvements - This category provides for the financial management of the Sports Facilities Improvement projects. A Temporary Sales Tax was approved by the citizens of Oklahoma City on March 4, 2008. Projects funded include improvements and expansion of the Ford Center along with the construction of a NBA Practice Facility. The Sales Tax goes into effect on January 1, 2009. To allow for initial design and development to begin, a Sports Facilities Sales Tax Line of Credit was approved by the trust on April 15th, 2008 in the amount of $20.0 million. Once the Sales Tax revenue is received, the funds will be transferred to the OCPPA for repayment on the Line of Credit and also for remaining project expenditures. The budget for this category for fiscal year 2008-09 is $47,330,121.

Lied to? Maybe not. Smoke blown-up your a..? Probably. Welcome to the real world. They have to have something for their justification for a MAPS4. Finishing the Ford Center for the forth time is as good a reason as any.

For Heavens sake Andy, give up dude, the constant negativity will destroy you from the inside.

For Heavens sake Andy, give up dude, the constant negativity will destroy you from the inside.

"Anger...fear...aggression. The dark side of the Force are they. Easily they flow, quick to join you in a fight. If once you start down the dark path, forever will it dominate your destiny, consume you it will..." -Master Yoda

;)

Is there anything in the MAPS III language that would prevent MAPS III money from being used?

All the upgrades will be done, just takes time, it might not get done when we want, but it will eventually get done. We are doing good, given the economic situation, if they really wanted to, they could scratch everything, but just imagine when the economy recovers how many developmentss will get underway and get off hold.


Rome wasn't built in a day...

Is there anything in the MAPS III language that would prevent MAPS III money from being used?

Not a word (as long as it fits into the very vague definition of "capital improvement" which Ford Center improvements would definitely qualify) and while it is a possibility the chances seem low mainly do to timing. They would have to divert the funds in short order and that would not be a good start. But as long as majority of the Council decides to, they certainly could.

For Heavens sake Andy, give up dude, the constant negativity will destroy you from the inside.

RC brother, someone has to be the ying to your yang. For someone who is so completely down on everything coming out of Washington these days, you certainly are blindly optomistic when it comes to our local people. The way I see it, they're still just politicians.

This isn't any new news, we discussed this awhile back in the Ford Center thread.

From the article it says that less than 20% is being cut, and that the cuts are in areas fans will not notice. I think they mean employee entrance and offices....not the grand entry, etc. Not sure ,but thats my take! lol

From the article it says that less than 20% is being cut, and that the cuts are in areas fans will not notice. I think they mean employee entrance and offices....not the grand entry, etc. Not sure ,but thats my take! lol

yep and cutting out the practice court lets them add an outdoor big screen

Lied to? Maybe not. Smoke blown-up your a..? Probably. Welcome to the real world. They have to have something for their justification for a MAPS4. Finishing the Ford Center for the forth time is as good a reason as any.

Yes Andy, welcome to the real world of revenue forcasting. Do you think you could have done a better job? Watch CNBC for a while and see how often every day they talk about corporate earnings coming in above or below estimates. Its the exact same thing. They can't even get it right quarter to quarter, much less years into the future.

...only 52 percent of residents’ apparel purchases are within Oklahoma City.

Read more: NewsOK (http://stage.newsok.com/oklahoma-city-hasnt-sold-chains-on-its-strong-points/article/3452997?custom_click=pod_lead_business#ixzz0mJRsYF NI)

Maybe if we started shopping in our own city, we wouldn't have had this problem in the first place, even with the recession. All of our sales tax initiatives could be shorter and/or maybe cheaper. AND, as a bonus, maybe we'd get all of these chain stores people seem to lust after around here.

Just a thought.

Yes Andy, welcome to the real world of revenue forcasting. Do you think you could have done a better job? Watch CNBC for a while and see how often every day they talk about corporate earnings coming in above or below estimates. Its the exact same thing. They can't even get it right quarter to quarter, much less years into the future.Promises made, excuses given. Revenue is down, cost are up. Sorry mug, but I've lost my blind faith.

You didn't answer the question. Given the fact professional accountants all across the country can't predict expenses and revenues for businesses on a quarter-by-quarter basis, could you do better than a city accountant trying to predict tax revenue over a several year period?

You didn't answer the question. Given the fact professional accountants all across the country can't predict expenses and revenues for businesses on a quarter-by-quarter basis, could you do better than a city accountant trying to predict tax revenue over a several year period?Yes

Awesome.

What will city tax revenue be for 2014?

You didn't answer the question. Given the fact professional accountants all across the country can't predict expenses and revenues for businesses on a quarter-by-quarter basis, could you do better than a city accountant trying to predict tax revenue over a several year period?

No, but the City doesn't have any problems with the MAPS tax revenue estimates as long as they are over a multi-year period. The Mayor said the MAPS for Kids tax (7 years) came within $2M of projections (didn't say if it was over or under) but that is an incredibly close. Worked out the math on it once and it was within less than half a percent.

M4K started out in a recession too (not as deep as the current one, but it was there). There is some concern because a recent article said we are about 3 years away (presuming solid sales tax growth) just to get back to the level we were before the economy tanked.

For the Ford tax, the problem came when they tried to apply the nearly 8 year average they had forecasted for MAPS 3 ($100M/year avg) to a relatively short 15 month period.

I would be absolutely ecstatic if they got the MAPS 3 cost estimates as close as revenue. Under MAPS, final costs were 47.75% more than what voters were told. Not a single MAPS project came in under budget and a few cost double. The City readily admitted that cost average 8% more during the 2007 G.O. bond election, yet they are only allowing 2.2% for cost over runs with MAPS 3.

Pretty sure we didn't vote on an itemized list of specific upgrades and features. And the renderings certainly weren't shown on the ballot.


You have got to be.... nevermind.

Am I wrong?? My point is this:


Any proposed projects approved based on sales tax collections instead of having money already in hand have to have some flexibility to make adjustments based on what money is available. All of the Maps projects are just proposals and are not guaranteed to be exactly the same as originally proposed or hoped for.

Am I disappointed that some changes had to be made because this tax was collected during a major economic downturn? YES.

Do I think we've been "lied to" or that "promises" have been broken? NO. That's ridiculous hyperbole.

Awesome.

What will city tax revenue be for 2014?What do you want it to be? What happen to all of that money they saved on the practice facility? Since when did accountants start forecasting revenues?

Guys, as someone who has observed the MAPS projects for more than a dozen years, I'm sorry, but this thread is a pretty big stretch in logic.
Here's some grown-up truth to consider: projects pitched on ballots are fuzzy water color proposals and nothing more. You're voting to improve the Ford Center, but if you read the ballot, you didn't see anything mentioning changing rooms for team employees or a warm-up arena.
And to accuse city staff of lying here is akin to throwing a temper tantrum because a promised ice cream came on a sugar cone instead of a waffle cone.
On the flip side, for those of you in the public safety crowd upset over the MAPS 3 vote, yeah, when the mayor or anybody goes out telling you that MAPS 3 will add more police and firefighters on the streets, yeah, if there's nothing on paper backing that up, you might want to consider whether you believe what you're being told.'
Now, do I think any of this will put an end to this thread and end unfair slurs against city staff? Absolutely not.

Guys, as someone who has observed the MAPS projects for more than a dozen years, I'm sorry, but this thread is a pretty big stretch in logic.
Here's some grown-up truth to consider: projects pitched on ballots are fuzzy water color proposals and nothing more. You're voting to improve the Ford Center, but if you read the ballot, you didn't see anything mentioning changing rooms for team employees or a warm-up arena.
And to accuse city staff of lying here is akin to throwing a temper tantrum because a promised ice cream came on a sugar cone instead of a waffle cone.
On the flip side, for those of you in the public safety crowd upset over the MAPS 3 vote, yeah, when the mayor or anybody goes out telling you that MAPS 3 will add more police and firefighters on the streets, yeah, if there's nothing on paper backing that up, you might want to consider whether you believe what you're being told.'
Now, do I think any of this will put an end to this thread and end unfair slurs against city staff? Absolutely not.I never said anyone lied... about this.

I know - you didn't create or title this thread.

So we are bond debt free?

Andy, that's not a bad point but has no relation to the Ford Center issue.

Fair enough. Someone needs to let bluedogok know. You going to do it, or do you want me to?
Are you referring to the city in general or on the Ford Center specifically? I am referring to the Ford Center specifically and compared to the bond debt load that Dallas has had on just the American Airlines Center...yes.

Every city has bond debt load, some have enough that it severely hampers their credit rating and ability to fund new projects. The debt load created by the $350 million cost of the AAC pretty much restricted the City of Dallas' ability to do anything about getting the Cowboys stadium at Fair Park as a replacement to the Cotton Bowl....that and the Many Mayors of Dallas all wanting something for their district in exchange.

Awesome.

What will city tax revenue be for 2014?

2014 = $101.79M

For the complete post and the math to arrive at the figure, go here (post #1):
http://www.okctalk.com/okc-metro-area-talk/19846-retraction-maps-3-funding-concerns.html

DISCLAIMER: I may need to adjust now that we know/are close to knowing what the "baseline" figure is (presumed amount of the Ford tax of $82.46M)

Awesome.

What will city tax revenue be for 2014?Are you wanting the overall combined revenue in the General Fund, or are you wanting only the sales tax revenue portion of the General fund?

Lied to? No. If I remember correctly, at the time of the MAPS for arena vote, we were shown at least three different drawings of what the Ford Center entrance might look like, and heard a bunch of vague projections about what they were going to do inside. As has been stated, we have a very good explanation for the shortfall, and it's not the city's fault. If I'd been able to project what was going to happen to the economy, I might be better off financially too.

It sounds as if they're not planning to tap MAPS 3 for money to make the upgrades as planned. If they were, they wouldn't be cutting anything. As far as what they're cutting, I doubt I'm going to miss the practice court. I don't know if that was something the team wanted, or if it was something designed to make the Ford Center more multi-purpose. Will I miss the high end restaurants in the Ford Center? Not when I have lots of alternatives in Bricktown and Midtown. I don't really want to go to the arena hours early to have dinner anyway. I just want my Johnsonville brats back, since Schwab's is a weak second, but I don't think I can blame the tax shortfall for that. I don't think, personally, I'll notice the difference between a drawing showing a 6 story entry and the reality of a 5 story entry.

Someone help me with the math here. In Wednesday's Oklahoman there were two articles side by side talking about the decline in sales tax revenues. One was about the Ford and the other was about the General Fund.

NewsOK (http://www.newsok.com/article/3457285?searched=City%20seeks%20bids%20on%20downsi zed&custom_click=search)

Oklahoma City seeks bids on downsized Ford Center renovations (Oklahoman 4/28/10)


...revenue for the 15-month (one cent) sales tax funding the project came in lower than expected. The tax, which ended March 31, was expected to raise $121 million. It came in about $19 million short.

NewsOK (http://www.newsok.com/article/3457281?searched=April%20sales%20tax%20revenue%20s teady&custom_click=search)

April sales tax revenue steady in Oklahoma City, but won’t stop cuts (Oklahoman, 4/28/10)


For the year, the city’s general fund sales tax collections are about 9.5 percent below the previous year. "That puts us down $19.5 million,” Couch said..."

From the CIty's website: MAPS 3 | OKlahoma City (http://www.maps3.org/q_and_a.html)

Of that 3.875, the general fund of the City receives 2.00 cents, public safety (fire and police) receives 0.75 cents, and the Zoo receives 0.125 (1/8th).
With the additional 1.0 cent that has gone to MAPS for Kids/Ford improvements/MAPS 3.

The Ford amount sounds about right after following the month to month declines and the General Fund amount is a direct quote from the City Manager. Now this is where things get fuzzy, if the General Fund tax is almost double the amount going to the Ford, shouldn't the revenue shortfall be almost double too? (At first glance the amount appears to be double but the Ford tax was collected over 1.25 years so effectively a 1.25 cent tax). Yet in these 2 articles the amount is nearly identical ($19M, mol)

Am I misreading or just plain missing something here? Thanks in advance!

Okay, so what I want to know is, are the Ford Center improvements for this off-season (ie phase III), taking place this year still?

Will we have our new grand entrance and everything minus the warm-up court, by time the next season starts, as was stated to us?

No one was lied to, what was proposed was all based on budgetary projections which is nowhere near an exact science, that's "life" when building with cash (or a "cash like" funding model). It's still better than issuing bonds and having a 30 year boat anchor tied around your cities credit rating like Dallas has with the American Airlines Center.



Thank You bluedogok, we are still in better shape than most cities with NBA teams.

I'm not so much concerned about the arena's facade.

The Ford Center is functional for the NBA and should any changes be made with what little is available, let the council decide.

The economy is very difficult to forcast!

I believe the exterior work is happening this summer, but the interior work will be done next summer. I don't think it's the end of the world if it takes one more year than anticipated to finish everything. If nothing else, we'll collect a little interest on the money over the winter.

I thought there were only 3 phases though, with this summers renovations being the 3rd?

Maybe if we started shopping in our own city, we wouldn't have had this problem in the first place, even with the recession. All of our sales tax initiatives could be shorter and/or maybe cheaper. AND, as a bonus, maybe we'd get all of these chain stores people seem to lust after around here.

Just a thought.

Well said...

If the city says it will be purchasing a waffle cone "machine" and its the only choice, to pair with ice cream, you damn right i will throw a tantrum.
My concern is these like "accountant professionals" , has help Enron and MCI committed fraud.
I dont trust them.
I just want a end of project audit, just to make sure its all right.
And yea I know accountants will be doing it..lol

I thought there were only 3 phases though, with this summers renovations being the 3rd?

That was the original plan and think it will still be just the 3, they are just pushing back some of the 3rd phase items.

NewsOK (http://newsok.com/ford-center-continues-improvements/article/3454845)
Ford Center continues improvements: More Renovations set to make Ford Center state-of-the-art facility
(Oklahoman, 4/25/10)


Additional renovations will be constructed during the next 18 months. ... The only minor issue has been the loss of storage space, a problem that will be resolved in 2011 when an additional 300,000 square feet will be added when the third and final phase is completed, the highlight being a new grand entryway.

NewsOK (http://newsok.com/grand-entryway-to-cap-renovations-at-ford-center/article/3454846)
Grand entryway to cap renovations at Ford Center (Oklahoman, 4/25/10)


Because plans have not been finalized for the final phase of renovation, excavation for a new grand entryway on the southwest corner of the Ford Center will not begin until September.

The new entryway to be built near Robinson and Interstate 40 will be the highlight of a $53 million project that is scheduled for completion by spring 2011.
...
A few projects will be completed this summer inside the Ford Center: new concession stands, two new restrooms on both the concourse and upper-deck levels, and novelty stands. But most major projects inside the arena were completed last summer.
...
The Ford Center will be shut down for a couple of months in summer 2011, most likely in July and August, so construction crews can install a new floor finish on the 100 concourse level.

Still only 3 phases but drawn out over the next 18 months or so...

Will we have our new grand entrance and everything minus the warm-up court, by time the next season starts, as was stated to us?

Sounds like they'll just be starting on it as the season is beginning.

Sounds like they'll just be starting on it as the season is beginning.

Since the entrance will be on new land and most people enter via the north and east sides, I don't think this will be much of an inconvenience. I'd rather they take their time and do it right than rush it to make a few of us happy. It's what's happening on the court that's important to me, and good things are happening there.

I agree. I wasn't intending to express concern with the timing, only answer the question previously asked.

And to reply back, I didn't think your statement expressed concern. It was just a general comment on my part!

Ouch.. math.... I hate math.
But here goes.
If I understand things correctly, the $19.5 million shortfall is for the life of the arena tax, not just for this current budget year.
As for the general fund shortfall, that, if I understand correctly, represents the current budget year to date.

Ouch.. math.... I hate math.
But here goes.
If I understand things correctly, the $19.5 million shortfall is for the life of the arena tax, not just for this current budget year.
As for the general fund shortfall, that, if I understand correctly, represents the current budget year to date.

(you and me both...LOL)

Thanks Steve and I tried to take that into account...the arena tax lasted 1.25 years (15 months), or what would equate to a tax rate of 1.25% and the General Fund portion of the sales tax = 2% over the same time period. Right??

Ford tax = 1.25% = $19M short
Gen Fund = 2.0% = $19M short

How 1.25 cents = 2.0 cents is where I get totally lost

Have written Mr. Dean and the City Manager, but too date haven't received a reply.

Larry, I've been told sometimes a man is best off admitting "I don't know."
I don't know.

LOL...but at least you tried...Thanks again (and I obviously don't know either)