1st off let me introduce myself, I am new here.

I am not only new to the site but pretty new to the OKC area. However being new, I am very familiar with alot of OKC for being that I lived here briefly in 1988-89. I currently reside in Moore and am building a new home in Edmond. I really enjoy the area.

I came across this great board of OKC discussions while researching the history of the Sirloin Stockade Massacre and the Edmond Post Office Massacre.

My questions are:

Exactly where was this Sirloin Stockade located? All I have found is sw 74th and Pennsylvania. Would it have been where the Hardee's/Carls Jr. is now?

How long was the retaraunt open after the Massacre?

When did it shut down and was it torn down or remodeled into something else?

I just could not seem to find these details by research or using the search on this board.

Thanks for any input you may have on this, I enjoy all local history.

Thanks so much

Jim

1st off let me introduce myself, I am new here.

I am not only new to the site but pretty new to the OKC area. However being new, I am very familiar with alot of OKC for being that I lived here briefly in 1988-89. I currently reside in Moore and am building a new home in Edmond. I really enjoy the area.

I came across this great board of OKC discussions while researching the history of the Sirloin Stockade Massacre and the Edmond Post Office Massacre.

My questions are:

Exactly where was this Sirloin Stockade located? All I have found is sw 74th and Pennsylvania. Would it have been where the Hardee's/Carls Jr. is now?

How long was the retaraunt open after the Massacre?

When did it shut down and was it torn down or remodeled into something else?

I just could not seem to find these details by research or using the search on this board.

Thanks for any input you may have on this, I enjoy all local history.

Thanks so much

Jim

It was located about where Joe's is now....

One of my former co-workers says he was riding his bike through the parking lot at the time the killing was happening. That's one of the events that most of us kind of try to avoid thinking about, as it was so brutal, connected to the other murders Roger Dale Stafford committed makes it even worse.

1st off let me introduce myself, I am new here.

I am not only new to the site but pretty new to the OKC area. However being new, I am very familiar with alot of OKC for being that I lived here briefly in 1988-89. I currently reside in Moore and am building a new home in Edmond. I really enjoy the area.

I came across this great board of OKC discussions while researching the history of the Sirloin Stockade Massacre and the Edmond Post Office Massacre.

My questions are:

Exactly where was this Sirloin Stockade located? All I have found is sw 74th and Pennsylvania. Would it have been where the Hardee's/Carls Jr. is now?

How long was the retaraunt open after the Massacre?

When did it shut down and was it torn down or remodeled into something else?

I just could not seem to find these details by research or using the search on this board.

Thanks for any input you may have on this, I enjoy all local history.

Thanks so much

Jim

It set nearly in the middle of the parking lot between Joe's and straight south to the shopping center. It was another business at one time but there were too many bad memorys for anything to stand a chance in that building, I could never go back.

1st off let me introduce myself, I am new here.

I am not only new to the site but pretty new to the OKC area. However being new, I am very familiar with alot of OKC for being that I lived here briefly in 1988-89. I currently reside in Moore and am building a new home in Edmond. I really enjoy the area.

I came across this great board of OKC discussions while researching the history of the Sirloin Stockade Massacre and the Edmond Post Office Massacre.

My questions are:

Exactly where was this Sirloin Stockade located? All I have found is sw 74th and Pennsylvania. Would it have been where the Hardee's/Carls Jr. is now?

How long was the retaraunt open after the Massacre?

When did it shut down and was it torn down or remodeled into something else?

I just could not seem to find these details by research or using the search on this board.

Thanks for any input you may have on this, I enjoy all local history.

Thanks so much

Jim

As the others have said, it is not fun having to remember that bit of OKC history. The location has already been identified. It never reopened as I recall. The building was leveled and a cook your own steak house, Fudrucker's, I think went in pretty much where Joe's and Starbucks are. It failed after a couple of years. A former neighbor lost a sister; a former SW Bell supervisor lost a daughter.

It may not be fun to think about because of it's brutality, but it is a part of our history and we can't just pretend that it didn't happen.

I came across this great board of OKC discussions while researching the history of the Sirloin Stockade Massacre and the Edmond Post Office Massacre.

You might as well ask about the two girls missing from the Oklahoma State Fair in 1981 or the murder of 2 Norman people found shot in the trunk of their car sometime in the 70's (thier names escape me).

It may not be fun to think about because of it's brutality, but it is a part of our history and we can't just pretend that it didn't happen.

I don't think its pretending it didn't happen, I think its knowing that it did happen

Come on people. The guy is asking for general information and not gruesome details. It's something we as people went through and survived.

1620 SW 74th Street

If you haven't seen this already, you might find it interesting.

Sirloin Stockade murders | Cold Case OK (http://blog.newsok.com/coldcaseokc/2008/07/16/sirloin-stockade-murders/)

I thought it re-opened as a Sizzlin Sirloin instead of Sirloin Stockade and failed rapidly and was sold. It re-opened as "Long Neckers" (take off of Fudruckers) and was open for quite a few years and did well!! I ate there often!! Long Neckers also had a place in Norman and I think some other locations. The 74th and Penn shut down 1st and the others followed shortly afterwards, for what reason I don't know! It was certainly not from a lack of business!!

I also ate at Long Neckers but thought that was the same bldg., only remodeled. There was a Fudrucker's in the shopping center at 74th & Western.

I also ate at Long Neckers but thought that was the same bldg., only remodeled. There was a Fudrucker's in the shopping center at 74th & Western.
You be 100% correct!!

When the location changed to Longnecker's, my dad and I did the construction cleanup and make ready. I had the duty of doing the freezer area. I've been around dead bodies a lot(through my hospital morgue experience) but that empty room was VERY creepy! I ate at Longneckers a few times but the memory of what happened eventually soured me. I think many others felt the same. The location just needed to be buried.

Come on people. The guy is asking for general information and not gruesome details. It's something we as people went through and survived.

Thanks, and that is exactly right. It's all history, and the part that is most interesting is how it was handled . E.G. Edmond Post Office , 16 people were lost there, the building stands with a nice fountain/statue memorial in front with a small plaque that is bearly legible. The low quality of the actual plaque naming the victims saddened me when I was in there today.

Thanks for all the responses, and unfortunately, it is part of Oklahoma's History.

You might as well ask about the two girls missing from the Oklahoma State Fair in 1981 or the murder of 2 Norman people found shot in the trunk of their car sometime in the 70's (thier names escape me).



Thanks! But no Thanks, I was asking about a building and its location, not about the victims like your suggested questions do.

:bright_id

Being you brought it up....tell us about them.

Thanks! But no Thanks, I was asking about a building and its location, not about the victims like your suggested questions do.

:bright_id

Being you brought it up....tell us about them.

I don't remember any of the details but I am sure you can find them on the internet.

In 1981 two young girls went missing while at the Oklahoma State Fair. I think they were around 13 or 14 years old. It has haunted the fair every since.

http://www.websleuths.com/forums/archive/index.php/t-36156.html

The two people killed in Norman were a young couple dating (OU students if I remember correctly). Their car was found in a popular make-out spot with the bodies in the trunk. They entered the truck alive and were killed there. A local Norman PD officer was the prime suspect and supposidly the murder weapon was found in his house - and then lost by the Norman PD. I think it happend in either the late '60s early '70s.



On another side note - my mom can talk for hours about the funeral of gangster Pretty Boy Floyd. His funeral in Oklahoma was attened by 40,000 people. That would have made the cemetary the second largest city in the state.

Even more off the subject - if you have some free time and like to solve puzzels try decoding the Zodiac Killer messages. After decades, only 1 of 3 letters has been decoded.

I don't remember any of the details but I am sure you can find them on the internet.

In 1981 two young girls went missing while at the Oklahoma State Fair. I think they were around 13 or 14 years old. It has haunted the fair every since.

Charlotte June Kinsey 13, and Cinda Leann Pallet 13, Missing 26 Sept 1981 Oklahoma [Archive] - Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community (http://www.websleuths.com/forums/archive/index.php/t-36156.html)

The two people killed in Norman were a young couple dating (OU students if I remember correctly). Their car was found in a popular make-out spot with the bodies in the trunk. They entered the truck alive and were killed there. A local Norman PD officer was the prime suspect and supposidly the murder weapon was found in his house - and then lost by the Norman PD. I think it happend in either the late '60s early '70s.



On another side note - my mom can talk for hours about the funeral of gangster Pretty Boy Floyd. His funeral in Oklahoma was attened by 40,000 people. That would have made the cemetary the second largest city in the state.

Even more off the subject - if you have some free time and like to solve puzzels try decoding the Zodiac Killer messages. After decades, only 1 of 3 letters has been decoded.

================================================== =======
The murder site was (as was previously stated) where Starbuck's is now. My brother-in-law was in charge of the Freezer clean-up after the murder. Sirloin Stockade was warehouse based on about 42nd and Eastern (Carltonskeeper can verify that address)....they hose the entire premise down with power washers and got rid of everything inside eventually. Longneckers did have a good run but, they had trouble with the Fuddruckers chain on south Western and 74th st. Longneckers eventually closed and there were a couple of other businesses there that didn't make it....Starbuck's seem to be doing all right now....Verna Stafford is still alive and incarcerated Mable Bassett with a bad case of Cancer.....

That was right around the time of my senior year at Grant, it was so shocking to hear at that age. But that is shocking to hear at any age.

I was just promoted to Supervisor for Wendy's, I had southside stores, had to spend a lot of time at the store on SW 74th, a block away. Everyone was very shaken, and I drove by there every day. We never hired anyone under 16 after that, the Stockade chain was bankrupted by fines and lawsuits for having kids under 16 working that late.

Stafford's other crime, the cold-blooded murder of the Lorenz family of 3 on I-35, was just as heinous...Verna stood by the side of the road as if their vehicle was broken down, Melvin was a Good Samaritan, and they shot his little boy cowering in the back of the camper after seeing his parents murdered.

I know Verna turned state's evidence and made the conviction possible but I don't feel sorry for her.

And, I guess it's obvious, I have the same opinion on the death penalty as do most Oklahomans.

I'm a proponent of the death penalty in cases where guilt has been proven beyond a shadow of doubt. In Stafford's case, that was proven well enough. Since there lies the possibility of bad or purposely corrupted evidence(Joyce Gilchrist, Bob Macy), I don't go for the death penalty on circumstantial evidence only. Killing an innocent and forever staining their memory with a false conviction is just as bad as what happened to that little kid, IMO.

If you are interested in additional details (but not restaurant location), they can be found here:

Tulsa World: Oklahoma Centennial Stories (http://www.tulsaworld.com/webextra/itemsofinterest/centennial/centennial_storypage.asp?ID=070308_1_A7_Roger00052 )

I was in high school at the time. A girl in my class was the daughter of the manager that was killed. Obviously she was really affected by the killing. She was not the same the rest of the time I knew her. Also, as I recall the building was not used until after it was remodeled into Long Neckers.

I remember hearing about the McClain County murders when I was growing up in Purcell, but I'm a lot younger than most of you so I didn't know about this case until now, and I certainly didn't know that the killers were the same. :(

As the others have said, it is not fun having to remember that bit of OKC history. The location has already been identified. It never reopened as I recall. The building was leveled and a cook your own steak house, Fudrucker's, I think went in pretty much where Joe's and Starbucks are. It failed after a couple of years. A former neighbor lost a sister; a former SW Bell supervisor lost a daughter.

After the murders, they remodeled it and made it a Cinder's BBQ restaurant, but it never was successful.

there used to be some steakhouse in midwest city on air depot that had a big cow out front, located right about where golden corral is at now....was that a sirloin stockade or a sizzlin sirloin?

there used to be some steakhouse in midwest city on air depot that had a big cow out front, located right about where golden corral is at now....was that a sirloin stockade or a sizzlin sirloin? The steak joint that used to be on S.W. 59th & Penn. had one of those big cows out front. Same here, can't remember which was which. (I think it was sirloin stockade)

Gosh.. does anyone else long for the good 'ol days when psychopathic criminals would kill just because that's what they wanted to do? Not because of some sort of jihad or some sort of grudge against the government.

Ah.. the good 'ol days.

The steak joint that used to be on S.W. 59th & Penn. had one of those big cows out front. Same here, can't remember which was which. (I think it was sirloin stockade)

I remember one time when someone stole that cow it used to sit on a trailer, they must have found it because it reappeared.

I remember one time when someone stole that cow it used to sit on a trailer, they must have found it because it reappeared.
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The guy that owned that SIRLOIN STOCKADE had one in Ardmore also. He also was partners with a guy in a men's clothing store that was on the corner of the Shopping Center at 59th & Penn. That Bull was "Borrowed" more than once so he took it to Ardmore and those Country kids "Borrowed" it real quick. It was at Lake Murray it was at the school and so on. His last name was Jamison but I can't remember his first...He was very successful in that business and then someone wanted the corner worse than he did and he was out. He also sold the one in Ardmore and was able to retire....

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The guy that owned that SIRLOIN STOCKADE had one in Ardmore also. He also was partners with a guy in a men's clothing store that was on the corner of the Shopping Center at 59th & Penn. That Bull was "Borrowed" more than once so he took it to Ardmore and those Country kids "Borrowed" it real quick. It was at Lake Murray it was at the school and so on. His last name was Jamison but I can't remember his first...He was very successful in that business and then someone wanted the corner worse than he did and he was out. He also sold the one in Ardmore and was able to retire....

His first name wasn't Ralph was it?

His first name wasn't Ralph was it?

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That doesn't sound right....He was one shrewd businessman though...His business partner in the clothing store's name was Alan Butler. Alan passed away quite some time ago. The moved the store to a shopping center east of 59th st. on the North side of the street. But, his last name was Jamison that I remember.....He loved to play gin for a penny (or dollar) a point. He most generally won also.

Does anyone remember the triple murder of Mr & Mrs Howard Siler and their son in 1972 by Karrale Donnie Wayne Draper? He was convicted of three counts of 1st degree murder, but I believe the sentence was commuted to life after the Supreme Court's decision on Capital Punishment in the early '70s. They were herded into the back room of a convenience store around NW 31 & Western, June & Jim's, I believe. My mother knew the family, but I didn't. I can't find much info online.

Does anyone remember the triple murder of Mr & Mrs Howard Siler and their son in 1972 by Karrale Donnie Wayne Draper? He was convicted of three counts of 1st degree murder, but I believe the sentence was commuted to life after the Supreme Court's decision on Capital Punishment in the early '70s. They were herded into the back room of a convenience store around NW 31 & Western, June & Jim's, I believe. My mother knew the family, but I didn't. I can't find much info online.


The Siler family was killed at Turk's. The building is still there but is owned by different people. Iam looking for more info, but that's all i can find so far.

The Siler family was killed at Turk's. The building is still there but is owned by different people. Iam looking for more info, but that's all i can find so far.

Thank you, Turks is correct. When I was a kid it was June & Jim, but I couldn't remember what it was called at the time of the murder.

there used to be some steakhouse in midwest city on air depot that had a big cow out front, located right about where golden corral is at now....was that a sirloin stockade or a sizzlin sirloin?

One and the same. "Sizzlin Sirloin" was a trademark name Sirloin Stockade used for their steaks.

The "cow" is on 51st and MacArthur in front of a car wash. Is on the west side of the street with a Sonic to the south. It's a Hereford. For some reason I thought it was always referred to as a bull?

I appreciate this thread. I have only lived here for 5 years, so I had never heard about any of this. It's fascinating in the same way a crime show on t.v. would be for those of us who did not live through it. I'm sorry if it drudged up some bad memories for those of you who did, but you can't expect everyone to have the same feelings about the massacre as you do. A lot of people read biographies on people like Charles Manson, Caril Fugate and Charles Starkweather, or people like that. You can't say they are wrong for studying about these horrific things. To each his/her own.

A lot of people are suited for paramedic work though I could never do what they do. Whatever works. I'd also never want to run a day care and be in charge of other people's kids all day long. Life offers a lot of different paths for a lot of different folks.

I appreciate this thread. I have only lived here for 5 years, so I had never heard about any of this. It's fascinating in the same way a crime show on t.v. would be for those of us who did not live through it. I'm sorry if it drudged up some bad memories for those of you who did, but you can't expect everyone to have the same feelings about the massacre as you do. A lot of people read biographies on people like Charles Manson, Caril Fugate and Charles Starkweather, or people like that. You can't say they are wrong for studying about these horrific things. To each his/her own.

A lot of people are suited for paramedic work though I could never do what they do. Whatever works. I'd also never want to run a day care and be in charge of other people's kids all day long. Life offers a lot of different paths for a lot of different folks.

Well said........

Its just too bad we remember the maggots that committed the crimes rather than the victims of them. I knew the daughter of the manager killed in the Sirloin Stockade when I was in high school and she was so nice. She was so torn up by what happened to her dad.

I sat in the parking lot and smoked a cigar the night Roger Dale Stafford was executed. I figured by the time I lit my cigar, it would take me longer to smoke it than he would remain alive.

Makes me wonder how on earth anyone could ever become such a worthless piece of human refuse. I sat at a local park with my grandson one day and watched the children playing. Don't know why, but it crossed my mind that Roger Dale Stafford at one time was a child and may have played as sweetly and innocently as those children. What is it that turns one into such an animal?

... What is it that turns one into such an animal?

There is of course no one single 'it'. Whatever trigger or triggers or plain old poor choices helped to place RDS on his destructive path may or may not appear in another person, whether kin or stranger.

Sometimes there is something regarding a particular individual which can be readily identified, and sometimes there is only the possibility of what may involved.

There are large numbers of folk jailed, or formerly jailed, who had family and neighbors and coworkers completely stunned when they learned of the horrors someone they knew was capable of bringing to the lives of others. I suspect it will always be that way.

Its like trying to figure out what justification McVeigh could have possibly had for blowing up that building. Whether he was ticked off about Waco or whatever, he must have known there were hundreds in that building who had nothing to do with Waco - not to mention the daycare he parked under. There simply is no rational justification.

Its like trying to figure out what justification McVeigh could have possibly had for blowing up that building. Whether he was ticked off about Waco or whatever, he must have known there were hundreds in that building who had nothing to do with Waco - not to mention the daycare he parked under. There simply is no rational justification.

He knew and that's why he did it...

Anyone think it was a good theng Harold Stafford was killed in his motorcycle wreck when he did, or do some of you think we would have learned more and had less appeals for Roger if he was caught?

Anyone think it was a good theng Harold Stafford was killed in his motorcycle wreck when he did, or do some of you think we would have learned more and had less appeals for Roger if he was caught?

I always wondered if that was sucide.

I have wondered the same thing

Does anyone remember the triple murder of Mr & Mrs Howard Siler and their son in 1972 by Karrale Donnie Wayne Draper? He was convicted of three counts of 1st degree murder, but I believe the sentence was commuted to life after the Supreme Court's decision on Capital Punishment in the early '70s. They were herded into the back room of a convenience store around NW 31 & Western, June & Jim's, I believe. My mother knew the family, but I didn't. I can't find much info online.

Hi, I was wondering if anyone knew where I could find info on Karrale Donnie Wayne Draper. Ive searched the ODOC website and several other archives. If I recall, there were 3 men convicted in this. Two I can locate. This person I cannot. Is he still alive, incarcerated, released?? Any info is helpful. Thanks.

This discussion reminds me of the 1979 incident in which my former pastor, Richard B. Douglass, and his wife, Marilyn, were murdered in their Okarche home by Glenn Burton Ake and Steven Keith Hatch, who had come to their door pretending to have had car trouble. The two bound the family -- Douglass and his wife, plus their children, Brooks, 16, and his sister Leslie, 12. They raped Leslie repeatedly and then shot all four of the Douglasses, leaving with the couple's wedding rings and a measly $43 in cash.

Richard and Marilyn died at the scene. Brooks and Leslie managed to free themselves and drove to a neighbor's house for help.

Now, 32 years later, Brooks is an attorney, and has served as an Oklahoma State Senator; Leslie is a schoolteacher.

Hatch was executed by lethal injection in 1996. Ake is serving consecutive life sentences.

I remember Brooks tagging along with me and my friends when our youth group took a trip to Six Flags in about 1974, when he would have been 11 or so; years later, when he was running for Senate, he came to my door seeking my vote, with no idea who I was. I knew him immediately -- he looks so much like his father that he played him in a recent indie film that was made about the murders. I invited him in and we talked for 30 minutes about old times. Brooks is quite a guy.

One of the saddest events I can ever recall.

there used to be some steakhouse in midwest city on air depot that had a big cow out front, located right about where golden corral is at now....was that a sirloin stockade or a sizzlin sirloin?

yes it was in the same building as Nino's mexican restaurant is now
there was also one in del city where the long john silver's is, next to round up pizza

Anyone think it was a good theng Harold Stafford was killed in his motorcycle wreck when he did, or do some of you think we would have learned more and had less appeals for Roger if he was caught?

I've got no problem with DiRT. Dead Right There.

I appreciate this thread. I have only lived here for 5 years, so I had never heard about any of this. It's fascinating in the same way a crime show on t.v. would be for those of us who did not live through it. I'm sorry if it drudged up some bad memories for those of you who did, but you can't expect everyone to have the same feelings about the massacre as you do. A lot of people read biographies on people like Charles Manson, Caril Fugate and Charles Starkweather, or people like that. You can't say they are wrong for studying about these horrific things. To each his/her own.

A lot of people are suited for paramedic work though I could never do what they do. Whatever works. I'd also never want to run a day care and be in charge of other people's kids all day long. Life offers a lot of different paths for a lot of different folks.

I grew up in Nebraska and was just a baby when Starkweather and Fugate went on their killing spree but I remember my dad telling me that in the towns surrounding Lincoln people would be on the rooftops with rifles in case they came into their small town. Starkweather got what he deserved and I think Carol Ann was guilty as hell and should have been put on Charles's lab when he got the chair, but she only served 17 years and is a free woman now.

The State Fair disappearances was extremely sad and scary. Day after day, week after week, month after month of the pictures of those girls on TV, the police and public searching everywhere...nothing.

The Orbachs. I wonder what happened to the son?

http://www.okctalk.com/showthread.php?t=10747&page=1

I just came across some history re the Stafford case in my research as historian for the Oklahoma County Sheriff's Office. https://m.facebook.com/badgeandbrass

back then the DW and boys lived in the Sandpiper South Apartments. Can't remember what they are called now. I was an aircraft fueler working for the city of OKC. Was working a very strange rotating shift and I did pass by that joint the night and close to the time of the murders. Still get a funny vibe going by that area even to this day.

I should be over it by now, but that entire Sirloin Stockade Murder situation makes me just as sick as the day it happened, and is exactly why I can't be against capital punishment for crimes like that, Sorry if that is offensive to certain sensibilities, yet that's the way it is. Frankly, I'm offended by the fact that it took the State decades to give Roger Dale Stafford his just desserts.

I know a gentleman, whom I hold in the highest regard and for whom I have the utmost respect, tell me that he believes beyond a shadow of a doubt that Verna Stafford was the "trigger person" during the massacre. He has worked in a professional capacity for years at Mabel Basset and has had years of interaction with her. He says that she is the personification is pure evil, and was the brains behind all of their escapades. Just thought I'd throw this in, for what it's worth.