State Fire Marshall announces administrative response delays including up to 5 months to review construction, sprinkler, fire alarm plans.

http://www.firemar.state.ok.us/images/Budget%20Proposal/budget.pdf

This is cool. Lets delay the very things that are needed to help the city and the firefighters get out of this economic slump...

This is cool. Lets delay the very things that are needed to help the city and the firefighters get out of this economic slump...

They are trying to not spend money they don't have - I don't see what they can do about it.

It looks like a not so veiled threat. Give us what we want or we will make you pay. Notice they choose to emphasize day care centers and assisted care. They will make your kids and aging parents suffer.

While I can appreciate a budget delimna, we have to face it with our own businesses. Layoffs happen when there isn't the same level of work. Can we assume there is less construction, etc. going on also?

Maybe instead of griping at the fire marshalls, we should be getting contacting our reps as far as how they appropriate available funds.

This is cool. Lets delay the very things that are needed to help the city and the firefighters get out of this economic slump...The issues addressed in the memo from the State Fire Marshall will not affect projects within the Corporate boundries of the City of OKC.

It looks like a not so veiled threat. Give us what we want or we will make you pay. Notice they choose to emphasize day care centers and assisted care. They will make your kids and aging parents suffer.

While I can appreciate a budget delimna, we have to face it with our own businesses. Layoffs happen when there isn't the same level of work. Can we assume there is less construction, etc. going on also?Notice your false accusations, ridiculus statements, and your inability to grasp the obvious.

The issues addressed in the memo from the State Fire Marshall will not affect projects within the Corporate boundries of the City of OKC.

Does the state or city fire marshall review plans on state owned facilities within the city limits?

Just a small lesson. Last names-Marshall, Positions-Marshal.

Thanks, I knew something was wrong there. In any case, some projects in the Metro Area will be affected.

Does the state or city fire marshall review plans on state owned facilities within the city limits?

You're talking my industry now. Don't know about OK, but in TX, state & federal owned facilities (government bldgs, UT Arlington, UT Dallas, UT (boooooo!)) aren't answerable to the local AHJ (authority having jurisdiction). Texas uses an independent consulting engineering firm, usually Schirmer and Assoc., to act as AHJ and plan reviewer. Each city has its own plan reviewer for non-state or Federal jobs. State codes are for the whole state, usually adopted from NFPA 72 or IBC or IFC. Each city can require more than the state, but can not accept less than the state codes require.

The announcement is most definitely a veiled a threat. To wit, the same should be returned. In these economic times, we are all tightening our belts while still retaining the output required. If they cannot, there is a huge line of men and women waiting to take their jobs, especially in these economic times. They need to be reminded they get to paid to do the job. If their response is "I (we) can't do the job". That's fine. Let's thank them for being honest and frank and bring in men and women who can. The labor market is strong these days. Let's take advantage of it.

The announcement is most definitely a veiled a threat. To wit, the same should be returned. In these economic times, we are all tightening our belts while still retaining the output required. If they cannot, there is a huge line of men and women waiting to take their jobs, especially in these economic times. They need to be reminded they get to paid to do the job. If their response is "I (we) can't do the job". That's fine. Let's thank them for being honest and frank and bring in men and women who can. The labor market is strong these days. Let's take advantage of it.

I have a NICET level IV certification in Fire Alarm Systems, and an Alarm Planner Superintendent license. I'd consider moving back to OKC for $80-100K to review plans!

Is this referring to the Devon Tower?

Is this referring to the Devon Tower?
Nope, it will be reviewed by the City of Oklahoma City.

The only time that I ever dealt with the State Fire Marshal's office was the Catholic Youth Camp project in rural Lincoln county (right by the Oklahoma, Logan, Lincoln county lines) under no city/town jurisdiction. Every other project was reviewed by whatever city had jurisdiction over the project.

The announcement is most definitely a veiled a threat. To wit, the same should be returned. In these economic times, we are all tightening our belts while still retaining the output required. If they cannot, there is a huge line of men and women waiting to take their jobs, especially in these economic times. They need to be reminded they get to paid to do the job. If their response is "I (we) can't do the job". That's fine. Let's thank them for being honest and frank and bring in men and women who can. The labor market is strong these days. Let's take advantage of it.

I don't see it as a veiled threat. Sounds more like a reality check. If you have X number of employees and Y number of jobs to get done, the ratio matters. The employees can only be in one place at a time. When you reduce the number of employees it's going to take longer to get the work done. You guys and your conspiracy theories.

I don't see it as a veiled threat. Sounds more like a reality check. If you have X number of employees and Y number of jobs to get done, the ratio matters. The employees can only be in one place at a time. When you reduce the number of employees it's going to take longer to get the work done. You guys and your conspiracy theories.

I totally agree Wambo. All state agencies are having to make mandatory cutbacks and this is just making clear to the public how the cutbacks are being achieved. I don't see any indication of a threat.

I don't see it as a veiled threat. Sounds more like a reality check. If you have X number of employees and Y number of jobs to get done, the ratio matters. The employees can only be in one place at a time. When you reduce the number of employees it's going to take longer to get the work done. You guys and your conspiracy theories.

Its not a conspiracy theory in the slightest. This is gov't who doesn't want to tighten its belt with the rest of us. Fortunately for the good people of OKC, this problem is easily solved. The job is X, it pays Y. We have leadership that has told us they can't handle it. Its clearly time to get the kind of leadership who can.

If we explore one the strongest labor markets this nation has ever seen, and we still can't the people to make it happen, then we acquiesce. But not until we act like everybody else is in these tough times, and full attempt to make it happen with the dollars with that we have.

Its not a conspiracy theory in the slightest. This is gov't who doesn't want to tighten its belt with the rest of us. Fortunately for the good people of OKC, this problem is easily solved. The job is X, it pays Y. We have leadership that has told us they can't handle it. Its clearly time to get the kind of leadership who can.

If we explore one the strongest labor markets this nation has ever seen, and we still can't the people to make it happen, then we acquiesce. But not until we act like everybody else is in these tough times, and full attempt to make it happen with the dollars with that we have.

You got all that from a memo that basically says "We're downsizing, it might take awhile to get your request." Sounds to me like you might be looking for a "veiled threat" that just isn't there.

Its not a conspiracy theory in the slightest. This is gov't who doesn't want to tighten its belt with the rest of us. Fortunately for the good people of OKC, this problem is easily solved. The job is X, it pays Y. We have leadership that has told us they can't handle it. Its clearly time to get the kind of leadership who can.

If we explore one the strongest labor markets this nation has ever seen, and we still can't the people to make it happen, then we acquiesce. But not until we act like everybody else is in these tough times, and full attempt to make it happen with the dollars with that we have.I don't know your chosen vocation, or what your line of work is, or what duties your job entails, and don't care. Nevertheless, and assuming you have a job. If your duties were increased buy 20%, could you perform those extra duties in the same time frame you needed to perform your duties prior to the increase?

Budget shortfalls could slow Oklahoma fire investigations
BY JOHNNY JOHNSON 0 Comments Published: April 20, 2010

Citing budget shortfalls and staff reductions, the Oklahoma fire marshal’s office has announced unprecedented cutbacks in operations that could have a trickle down effect in homicide and arson investigations and cost rural sheriff’s departments more than they can afford.
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Last week, the state fire marshal announced that a 20 percent reduction in staff means the department may need up to 72 hours to respond to a suspicious fire or arson resulting in a fatality or a critical injury.

Up until last week, an investigator would always respond to such fires within 48 hours.

A call placed Monday to the assistant fire marshal seeking information on the operational changes produced the following voice message:

"Hi this is JoAnne Sellars. Today is Monday April 19. I’ll be out all day today on furlough. You may reach me the rest of the week starting Tuesday.”

As Fire Marshal Robert Doke explained, his administrative staff has begun taking voluntary furloughs to try to get the office through the rest of the fiscal year without terminating anyone.

But even on furlough, he said, staff members usually still take phone calls and return e-mail.

"Last Friday was my furlough day,” Doke said. "But I was in the office anyway. We still have work that has to be done.”


Cutbacks
The fire marshal’s office is currently rated for 34 positions, Doke said. But over the last couple of years, as budgetary concerns began to grow, when positions became vacant, they weren’t filled.
"We have 27 people right now,” Doke said. "That means things are going to slow down and we just simply can’t meet the statutory requirement of 48-hour response any more.”

And in many cases, like grass fires with minimum property damage, Doke said he is not sure his office will respond at all.

"The sheriff will just have to do a report and mark it as cause accidental or unknown,” the fire marshal said.

But it’s the fires involving homicides that really concern Doke.

"If there is a fire fatality, nobody wants to leave a body there,” Doke said. "So if we are not able to respond as soon as possible, then we will have to rely on the sheriff and/or the medical examiner to conduct that report.”

Doke said that might leave some holes in the investigation.

"There are usually three of us — each with a particular skill. But if we’re not there, then one-third of the puzzle is possibly missing, and it may be that we have a homicide where we are not able to determine the cause of the fire. I hope that never happens, but I would say it’s a strong possibility.”

But knowing his staff the way he does, Doke said, if it’s possible to solve a case, it will get solved.


Reaction
While the state fire marshal’s office doesn’t typically investigate fires in larger cities that have their own fire investigators, those in rural Oklahoma rely heavily on the state agents.
"This is going to affect us severely,” Watonga Fire Chief Mark Huff said. "We try to do the best we can with what we have, but we have to rely on the expertise of the state fire marshal’s office when we need it.”

And with 15 fatal fires throughout rural Oklahoma so far this year, Huff said, rural departments depend on the fire marshal more than many people might think.

Huff said he has had some training from the fire marshal’s office and in a pinch, he can do some aspects of a big investigation, but some of the smaller and less experienced departments are going to have a hard time.

Ellis County Sheriff DeWayne Miller is no stranger to making do with limited resources. He, along with an undersheriff and three deputies are tasked with patrolling 1,225 square miles and covering emergencies around the clock. And when one of his jailers got sick over the weekend, the sheriff had to work the night shift as a jailer.

That’s why cutbacks at the state level could devastate his department.

"To maintain a pristine crime scene, we will have to stage one or two people there until we can relinquish it to the fire marshal,” he said. "And there’s only five of us.”


What’s next
In addition to delays in fire investigation, the state fire marshal is also announcing delays in code assistance inspection, building consultation requests, and building plan reviews, and the office is expecting additional employee furloughs and/or reductions in work force. On July 1, the fire marshal’s office will get its new fiscal budget that will determine the future of the agency.
Until then, Doke said he and the rest of his staff is doing everything possible to try to keep his family together and to do their job to the best of their ability.

"We’ve been good doing more with less, but we’re at the point that it just can’t be done anymore,” Doke said. "But I also know the sun’s gonna come up in the east tomorrow and we’ll do what can until it goes down, then we’ll start it all over again the next day.”
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You're right Mr Big and Rover, these people are just looking to fleece us taxpayers and are in dire need of the beat down you guys want to administer.LOL
How's that foot taste?

I don't know your chosen vocation, or what your line of work is, or what duties your job entails, and don't care. Nevertheless, and assuming you have a job. If your duties were increased buy 20%, could you perform those extra duties in the same time frame you needed to perform your duties prior to the increase?

It has been my experience that with many jobs, the amount of time needed to accomplish a task is dependent on the amount of time allowed. If you have an 8 hour shift, and 4 jobs/tasks, the jobs/tasks somehow take 2 hours each to accomplish. Yet the same 8 hour shift with 8 jobs/tasks, each one only takes an hour. You find out how long it really takes when in the 8 hour shift you have 17 jobs/tasks and one doesn't end up getting done. Real time to complete the job is only 30 minutes/per, but on those slow days it takes 2 hours/per.

So to answer your question, if 20% was added to the 4 job/task day, not a problem. If you are already maxed out on a 17 job/task day, adding 20% to it isn't going to help any.

It has been my experience that with many jobs, the amount of time needed to accomplish a task is dependent on the amount of time allowed. If you have an 8 hour shift, and 4 jobs/tasks, the jobs/tasks somehow take 2 hours each to accomplish. Yet the same 8 hour shift with 8 jobs/tasks, each one only takes an hour. You find out how long it really takes when in the 8 hour shift you have 17 jobs/tasks and one doesn't end up getting done. Real time to complete the job is only 30 minutes/per, but on those slow days it takes 2 hours/per.

So to answer your question, if 20% was added to the 4 job/task day, not a problem. If you are already maxed out on a 17 job/task day, adding 20% to it isn't going to help any.Here is my point. I think. It would seem that there would be delays in performing certain job functions when 7 are now doing what 10 used to do.

On the surface, yes. But it all depends on the workload of those involved. If those 10 people are already maxed out (or close to it), then reducing it to 7 isn't going to help at all. It will definitely cause delays. However if those 10 people have 2 hours to get a 30 minute job done, and get cut down to 7, that means they still will have plenty of time to take on the additional work load. Are you going to get rid of the productive employee that can do the job in 30 minutes or the 'slacker' who takes 2 hours? If you can get the same amount of work done, with fewer employees, that all goes to the companies bottom line (salary, benefits etc). Some places will even get rid of a full-time person and employee 2 or 3 part timers just so they don't have to pay benefits.

Unfortunately 5 months doesn't seem like it's that far off from what they normally took to do anything, based on my numerous past experiences.

And it does come off as a very thinly veiled threat.

I don't know your chosen vocation, or what your line of work is, or what duties your job entails, and don't care. Nevertheless, and assuming you have a job. If your duties were increased buy 20%, could you perform those extra duties in the same time frame you needed to perform your duties prior to the increase?

In a word, "absolutely"! Fortunately, my duties are always increasing. I can either accept them or somebody else will. That's all I'm suggesting in this scenario. We must recognize that these economic times aren't easy. We need to stop acting like they should be and start behaving like we know how to handle the rough times.

If you can't get the job done I guarantee you there's a guy who is losing his house, worried about his family, who can. He's qualified, he's hungry, and he'll get the job done. He won't take furloughs. He won't complain. And he if has to work a few extra hours to keep that roof over his head and food on the table, he'll do it with pride. Here's the bit too...this guy...this guy is everywhere. He is easily found in this labor market. He'll leave another city to come here for the job. We don't have a fire marshal labor problem, we have fire marshal complaining problem.

It has been my experience that with many jobs, the amount of time needed to accomplish a task is dependent on the amount of time allowed. If you have an 8 hour shift, and 4 jobs/tasks, the jobs/tasks somehow take 2 hours each to accomplish. Yet the same 8 hour shift with 8 jobs/tasks, each one only takes an hour. You find out how long it really takes when in the 8 hour shift you have 17 jobs/tasks and one doesn't end up getting done. Real time to complete the job is only 30 minutes/per, but on those slow days it takes 2 hours/per.

So to answer your question, if 20% was added to the 4 job/task day, not a problem. If you are already maxed out on a 17 job/task day, adding 20% to it isn't going to help any.

Larry, I think what your failing to see is that the State Fire Marshal's office covers, well, the entire state of Oklahoma. They get dispatched to areas far and wide to assist or take over arson and fire investigations in rural areas that don't have arson or fire investigators of their own. Their duties can't be compared to office work only. Their work day is dictated by the difficulty of the investigation they're sent to do, as well as the travel time to get there.
What amazes me is that some of the posters here find this to be some sort of threat. Go back and read the highlighted area in the newspaper story a few posts back. It sounds like they are already going out of their way to work it out. Like I said, if letting people know that your response time is going to be longer than usual is percieved by some people as a threat, those people might be looking for something to bitch about.

In a word, "absolutely"! Fortunately, my duties are always increasing. I can either accept them or somebody else will. That's all I'm suggesting in this scenario. We must recognize that these economic times aren't easy. We need to stop acting like they should be and start behaving like we know how to handle the rough times.

If you can't get the job done I guarantee you there's a guy who is losing his house, worried about his family, who can. He's qualified, he's hungry, and he'll get the job done. He won't take furloughs. He won't complain. And he if has to work a few extra hours to keep that roof over his head and food on the table, he'll do it with pride. Here's the bit too...this guy...this guy is everywhere. He is easily found in this labor market. He'll leave another city to come here for the job. We don't have a fire marshal labor problem, we have fire marshal complaining problem.

Well is this guy trained to do the job of the fire investigator? If not you'll have to have him trained which will take more time for him to get on the job to replace the ones that you kicked out. This will then cause even more delays to investigation, plan reviews, etc...

All the investigators office is saying there may be a delay the response times of investigations, and plan reviews due to staffing shortages. They never said they would not do the jobs, but it may take longer to get the job done. So please get off your high horse and realize that even though all of us are dealing with these tough times, state agencies are doing the regular job wit fewer trained staff.

Larry, I think what your failing to see is that the State Fire Marshal's office covers, well, the entire state of Oklahoma. They get dispatched to areas far and wide to assist or take over arson and fire investigations in rural areas that don't have arson or fire investigators of their own. Their duties can't be compared to office work only. Their work day is dictated by the difficulty of the investigation they're sent to do, as well as the travel time to get there.
What amazes me is that some of the posters here find this to be some sort of threat. Go back and read the highlighted area in the newspaper story a few posts back. It sounds like they are already going out of their way to work it out. Like I said, if letting people know that your response time is going to be longer than usual is percieved by some people as a threat, those people might be looking for something to bitch about.

I understand what you are saying and don't disagree (and it sounds like they are basically maxed out anyway). Although just about every department (public or private) insists that they have already cut everything to the bone...are over worked and under staffed and underpaid...whenever cutbacks are looming.

I don't see it as a threat but can understand how some might. I see it most likely as a realistic assessment. Often though what we end up hearing about on the TV or in the paper is the worst case scenario (and to the media's credit, they even sometimes mention that, but it doesn't seem to get emphasized). But then again, the media is also in the business of selling papers and ratings, so the worst case scenario gets peoples attention "Hundreds of firefighters may get laid off" or "Thousands of teachers could be fired" or whatever the headline is. Most missing the disclaimer word may/could/might.

In some sense it may be a way of manipulating the public's perception too (intentionaly or not)..."12% across the board cuts, including public safety"..."$9M cut from the budget"...then when it is all said and done there is still a sizeable cut but it is "only" $3M. Doesn't sound so bad. But if presented the other way, "There won't be ANY cuts" and then in the end $3M gets cut, sounds pretty bad.

End result is the same, $3M got cut but how that cut is perceived...

In a word, "absolutely"! Fortunately, my duties are always increasing. I can either accept them or somebody else will. That's all I'm suggesting in this scenario. We must recognize that these economic times aren't easy. We need to stop acting like they should be and start behaving like we know how to handle the rough times.

If you can't get the job done I guarantee you there's a guy who is losing his house, worried about his family, who can. He's qualified, he's hungry, and he'll get the job done. He won't take furloughs. He won't complain. And he if has to work a few extra hours to keep that roof over his head and food on the table, he'll do it with pride. Here's the bit too...this guy...this guy is everywhere. He is easily found in this labor market. He'll leave another city to come here for the job. We don't have a fire marshal labor problem, we have fire marshal complaining problem.If you can handle more work it sounds like your being overpayed. Have you told your boss he(she) could make more money by letting a couple of people go and assigning their work to you?