We're one city trying to move forward, and it simply tries to revive old fractions that aren't relevant in 2010. Ignore the thread and let it die.

agreed, I almost replied to it today, and resisted.

Agree with Steve.


agreed, I almost replied to it today, and resisted.

I did the same.

Not me.

I think it's great that we have distinctly different parts of the city.

I haven't looked at it. Is it one of those Taliban tribal warfare type situations where the people in one valley hate the people in the next valley for whatever reason so they just keep fighting the same war every day of every year?

yep

So Steve... ...do as I say, not as I do?

No. I'm ignoring it now.

So Steve... ...do as I say, not as I do?

Well, in fairness to Steve, he asked both sides to stop and when that didn't work he asked others not to join in.

We're one city trying to move forward, and it simply tries to revive old fractions that aren't relevant in 2010. Ignore the thread and let it die.

Not familiar with the thread so won't comment about the discussions there, but do you really think Southside/Northside is no longer relevant?

One only has to look at the voting results for MAPS (generally failed on Southside, projects were generally seen as being just for Northsiders...and downtown is Northside). MAPS for Kids (passed citywide but projects impacted entire City (every school either new or renovated and the new schools weren't just located North side). MAPS 3, failed on South side (some projects scattered but mainly seen as a Northside thing again.

MAPS 3, failed on South side (some projects scattered but mainly seen as a Northside thing again.

If there is a MAPS 4 it SHOULD contain some significant projects for the south side. I would agree the vast majority of the money was spent on the north side.

Now that being said, what projects would one feel were needed on the south side that would be MAPS4-appropriate?

If there is a MAPS 4 it SHOULD contain some significant projects for the south side. I would agree the vast majority of the money was spent on the north side.
Now that being said, what projects would one feel were needed on the south side that would be MAPS4-appropriate?

I totally disagree:

Bricktown Ballpark, Bricktown Canal, Ford Center, Fairgrounds Improvements, while technically are on the NW side, they are used by citizens from the North, South, East and West sides of OKC.

MAPS for Kids has, or is in the process of building or repairing every school in OKC, Schools located on the North side, West side, South side and East side.

As a southsider, I would like to see some main streets widened, something done with Crossroads Mall - whatever it may be, I wouldn't mind seeing the rest of the money go to Bricktown/Downtown to be honest.

I totally disagree:

Bricktown Ballpark, Bricktown Canal, Ford Center, Fairgrounds Improvements, while technically are on the NW side, they are used by citizens from the North, South, East and West sides of OKC.

MAPS for Kids has, or is in the process of building or repairing every school in OKC, Schools located on the North side, West side, South side and East side.

Its splitting hairs. A much smaller amount of MAPS money has been spent south of the river. It would be nice to see some things done there to make it a more desireable area.

My question is, what would be MAPS4 worthy? What projects would people like to see done south of the river that would be realistic and legal?

If there is a MAPS 4 it SHOULD contain some significant projects for the south side. I would agree the vast majority of the money was spent on the north side.

Now that being said, what projects would one feel were needed on the south side that would be MAPS4-appropriate?

The County Jail?


Just kidding - I don't havea dog in this fight but a multi-purpose race course would be nice.

Miller Motorsports Park | MMP Home (http://www.millermotorsportspark.com/)

http://www.motorcycle-usa.com/photogallerys/miller_sbk_race1_start.jpg

Hey, everything is on the table, keep 'em coming. How about some redevelopment projects?

Would like to see Crossroads turned into something....racetrack mentioned by Kerry would go good right there.

Would like to see Crossroads turned into something....racetrack mentioned by Kerry would go good right there. Agreed..

Would like to see Crossroads turned into something....racetrack mentioned by Kerry would go good right there.

What I am thinking of would be far to big for the Crossroads site. However, Mt. Trashmore would make a great location and coud turn an eyesore into an economic development engine.

As a northsider I'd like to see some creative adaptive reuse of Crossroads as well. See? Southsiders and northsiders can share similar ambitions and ideas.

As a northsider I'd like to see some creative adaptive reuse of Crossroads as well. See? Southsiders and northsiders can share similar ambitions and ideas. Amen..

I totally disagree:

Bricktown Ballpark, Bricktown Canal, Ford Center, Fairgrounds Improvements, while technically are on the NW side, they are used by citizens from the North, South, East and West sides of OKC.

MAPS for Kids has, or is in the process of building or repairing every school in OKC, Schools located on the North side, West side, South side and East side.

But how are those projects viewed (north or south)? Again, the point of my post was that one only has to look at the various MAPS election results:

MAPS. Barely passed w/54% overall (generally failed on Southside, projects were generally seen as being just for North siders...and downtown is Northside).

MAPS for Kids Passed by the widest margin because it was the most inclusive...projects impacted entire City (as you said too, every school either new or renovated and the new schools weren't just located North side).

MAPS 3 Barely passed w/54% overall, failed on South side (some projects scattered City wide but mainly seen as a North side thing again. The main projects (and by far the majority of the money) are heavily north of the River



"Exclusive" Northside Projects
$130M Central Park
$130M Downtown Streetcars
$280M Convention Center
$60M Fairgrounds (and the destruction of the State Fair Speedway which most likely had a fair share of fans south of the river).
TOTAL: $600M or 77% (plus the Mixed projects)

"Exclusive" Southside projects
TOTAL: Nothing or 0%

"Mixed" or scattered Citywide
$50M Senior Aquatic Centers
$35M River Improvements (presumably built on both sides of the River), but if North heavy, there you go again)
$10M Sidewalks
$40M Trails
TOTAL: $135M (presume a 50/50 split, North/South)

Unknown
$25M Kayaking facility (depends on which side of the River this ends up being on). For sake of argument, eliminate the Kayaking facility and what does that leave you with? Roughly a 9 to 1 spending ratio (with North side getting 90% of the funds).

If they want a MAPS 4 to pass, they are going to have to go back to the MAPS for Kids model where the entire City is impacted in a more equitable manner.

Larry, you've posted that for the 500th time. Its over, move on. We already know that.

500th time? Really (part of the post was a repeat, but apparently RC missed it), just fleshed it out

I would like to see the street car extended south across the river to Capitol Hill. I think that it would greatly stimulate redevelopment in an area that has great potential. The "Northside Southside" stuff is in the mind. The Oklahoma Opry is actually closer to the Ford Center than Children's Hospital. Crossroads is closer to Bricktown than Penn Square. Which is closer to the proposed central park, The Village or Moore? The river is not the unbreachable physical barrier that many people on both sides of it treat it as.

spending $$ on the SS is like giving the guy with a .15 BAC another Tequila shot

SS is nothing but a pothole between Norman/Moore and NS/Edmond

spending $$ on the SS is like giving the guy with a .15 BAC another Tequila shot

SS is nothing but a pothole between Norman/Moore and NS/Edmond
Well, Steve's intended purpose did not apparently play out well. While I have avoided replying in the N v S Okc thread, we get posts in this thread like the above, so nothing is gained.

But, for the record, ultimatesooner, I will express my opinion: your above post is completely crap and I don't think that my reasons for saying so really need to be stated for anyone other than you.

However, having said the above, it also occurs to me that you were intending to be sarcastic and you didn't really mean the words that you said. That will be for you to say and/or clarify.

spending $$ on the SS is like giving the guy with a .15 BAC another Tequila shot

SS is nothing but a pothole between Norman/Moore and NS/Edmond

And Bricktown used to be a scary place that no one would ever think about going after dark.

So much for not having another northside vs. southside thread... :doh:

As a southsider..I can honestly say I want to see more southside v. northside comparisons. Whatever it takes to improve the southside. Granted, the area I'm from, out in Far SW Oklahoma City, isn't the southside around Crossroads or Capitol Hill--but it's still culturally tied to those areas. Even in the nice parts of the south side, you still see families that have lived on the southside for generations, and it's awesome in my opinion. My own family goes back several generations in the southside, even though I did my growing up away from here in Houston and my mother lived in Seattle for a brief period as well. Because of my family's roots in "Packing Town" as they call it, and with the old Farmer's Market in the new C2S area, everyone in my family calls anything south of I-240 "Moore" so for all intents and purposes we live in "Moore" even though my parents' house is between May and Penn.

I will always strongly disagree with the people who write the southside off as the slum part of OKC. That is not true. There are some very, very nice neighborhoods in S. OKC.. in fact the metro's highest-income ZIP code is SW OKC 73170 (Westmoore area). There are even some very decent neighborhoods inside of I-240, believe it or not. Capitol Hill is a REALLY cool area of our city and I can honestly say I feel 100% safe walking down Commerce Street. There's a great restaurant called The Grill on the Hill that I recommend everyone try, they've been featured in the Gazette a few times which is what convinced me to try it out. I can also go on and on about how great the people who live on the south side are. This is a very tight-nit community, in my opinion more of a "community" than the north side with all of its cultural assets--which is ironic how that happens (granted I can't really judge the north side sense of "community" as a southsider myself, but that's just the sense I get). Are people in S OKC focusing more on their neighbors and their families and leaving no attention for culture? That's one way to spin it, but I still think culture is a void that needs to be filled south of I-40.

As for the comparisons, I think it's necessary. When you take a cumulative look at the cultural assets of Oklahoma City you realize that about 90% of them exist on the northside or in downtown, with 10% or even less existing south of I-40. The simple fact is that there is not even a single decent bookstore in all of the south side, until you get to the south side of Norman..Newsflash: Slightly more people live on the south side than on the north side! Core to Shore will change that, and hopefully even spur some activity in very close-by Capitol Hill--but it will be decades to take root and there isn't any such movement underway right now. There needs to be. There needs to be more of a community consciousness on the southside and a realization that the southside is completely lacking in cultural resources. Covering up the divisions we have get us no closer to solving the root of the problem and legitimately moving forward as one city..and on that I just want to close by saying that just because we say we are moving together unified as one city doesn't make it true. Sometimes reality is a very far cry from what we pride ourselves on, and the reality in this instance is that OKC is made up of two very different, very separated distinct cities.

500th time? Really (part of the post was a repeat, but apparently RC missed it), just fleshed it out

NO, RC didn't miss it. You and others keep trying to turn this into a North side vs South side, it's past time to stop the BS, were all one City and should act as such.

so the river seperates
north and south I always thought it was Reno ?

so the river separates
north and south I always thought it was Reno ?

The main thing that separates North and South is attitudes !

my attitude is not negative on the SS its just to far of a drive honestly i spend months on in never even going south of i-40 but thats my lifestlye

we are one city

lets not make it a N vs S thing or a OKC vs Tulsa

lets go all the way and make a OKC vs NYC

Well, most of the previous MAPS money was spent on the downtown area which I don't consider to be northside or southside. Core to Shore improves the "southern" area of downtown quite a bit.

The Northside received the most money over the years because it already had a lot of existing geographic features to take advantage of (ex. more ponds, lakes, parks and more open land to work with. It was cheaper to improve these existing features than to run around with a bulldozer.

[The South Shall Rise Again]

I really don't care about the northside vs. southside debate. I just don't want the city doing anything to promote urban sprawl.

To me Downtown is it's own zone, the center no matter where dividing lines intersect. The fairgrounds may be located in "the northside" but it sits on the dividing line, I don't consider it "northside" as much as it is it's own kind of its own unique place like downtown. It does seem that much of the focused development of the latest Maps/Core to Shore is "technically" southside. To me any investment of any quarter of town is an investment for the city.

If I read that Downtown is considered NORTH SIDE one more time my head will expload!

As previously stated Downtown is really the buffer area between NORTH and SOUTH, and if you doubt that just look at the map and check the street numbers heading in each direction from the Downtown area!!

so the river seperates
north and south I always thought it was Reno ?No it's not the river.If I'm not mistaking it's Sheridan that divides the South from the North.

No it's not the river.If I'm not mistaking it's Sheridan that divides the South from the North.

Not Reno?

I guess some people are determined to be divisive. How sad. I love the variety and personality of Capitol Hill. I love the friendliness, history and good natured humor I experience when getting to hang out with the "southside" folks at their monthly meetings at Coits. Some of the nicest new housing and shopping developments in the city are on the southside.
And yes, I've been a northsider ever since my family moved here when I was 11 years old.
Maybe more of the southside didn't vote for MAPS 3 than the northside. So what? We live in a democracy. Maybe the southside didn't feel as if there was enough accountability on this ballot. Or maybe they didn't like the project mix. That doesn't make them any worse than the northside. It just means they saw the ballot differently.
If you think southsiders don't love this community as much as northsiders, think again. Some of you hide behind a computer screen and never meet the folks who interact on this message board. My suggestion - don't limit yourself to OKC Talk conversations. Take advantage of this site as a way to meet different people - and gasp - people who live south of the river, or people who live north of the river (depending on which is the opposite side). And when you have a chance, visit Regatta Park and appreciate what is quickly morphing from a scar to what unites us.

:iagree: As a northsider, the truth is that the southsiders have many many great stories to tell, and they are more active about doing so than are the northsiders at OkcTalk. They tend to confine themselves to the Nostalgia & Memories - OKCTalk (http://www.okctalk.com/nostalgia-memories/) area here.

We have one city ... Oklahoma City. That is all.

man who cares if people wanna rgue let them argue its a message board theres gonna be arguements an people need somethin to talk about

man who cares if people wanna rgue let them argue its a message board theres gonna be arguements an people need somethin to talk about
What are your points, Little Wayne ... argument is good just for argument's sake and, without that feature, we'd have nothing to talk about here?

Either or both points are altogether absurd.

Polemic words which are intended to simultaneously provoke a response and to puff-up one's own ego are designed, intended, to hurt. They are barbs, arrows, shot at someone else. There is no truth in the old saying that,


"Sticks and stones may break my bones but words will never hurt me."

Words can and do hurt. In this context, our city is a like a family, which, in fact, it corporately is. Good-spirited discussion amongst family members is one thing, but mal-spirited barbs offered for no purpose other than being self-puffing and deprecating to another family member, is another.

The latter is what bullies do. It is not what a family member who values and respects his/her other family members does.

Plus, if you really want to be president, you might want to work on your English. Sorry, but you have that cheap-shot barb coming.

Maybe more of the southside didn't vote for MAPS 3 than the northside. So what? We live in a democracy. Maybe the southside didn't feel as if there was enough accountability on this ballot. Or maybe they didn't like the project mix. That doesn't make them any worse than the northside. It just means they saw the ballot differently.

.....

And when you have a chance, visit Regatta Park and appreciate what is quickly morphing from a scar to what unites us.

Steve, I love your analogy of Regatta Park's changing role and how the Boathouse Row projects can unite Oklahoma City's two halves. But I still have to push the question a little more.... and understand that I'm not being divisive, because I am a southside myself.

You acknowledged that MAPS 3 did badly on the southside, and yes we do live in a democracy, and yes people on the southside DID see the ballot differently and you're right that there is nothing wrong with that. In fact, I would go further and say that to the southside the ballot WAS different than it was when people viewed it from a northside perspective. I'm saying we should take a look at the WHY, and we can benefit immensely from doing so. MAPS 4 should be inclusive of the southside as well, and it will probably be an easier sell if that were ever the case. The truth is people on the southside don't go downtown nearly as often as people on the northside do, despite that I could go on and on about how the downtown improvements are more vital to the southsiders who don't have to drive to the NW Expressway anymore. I am pushing the question, not to make fun of the southside, but so that this talk of us being united as a city is real action talk, and not just lip service to a great idea..

Nick, when you are 20 years older, I hope that you still have the same zeal and have grown from the wisdom that additional years almost always seem to bring ... aging a good wine, so to speak. I really don't think that you are grasping the point that Steve was/is trying to make.

No it's not the river [that separates the north and south sides of Oklahoma City]. If I'm not mistaking it's Sheridan that divides the South from the North.

As far as I know, that's correct. I want to say it is, anyway.

I hate to add to this thread in a way other than academics, so I'll stick to that. Reno Avenue is actually SW 1st street.

I always was told it was Reno, it runs the entire city where Sheridan barely gets out of downtown. Looking at Google Earth I see that S 2nd is the one south of Reno but California sits between Reno and Sheridan, so which one is it supposed to be?

Not Reno?Nope, I don't think so.

I always was told it was Reno, it runs the entire city where Sheridan barely gets out of downtown. Looking at Google Earth I see that S 2nd is the one south of Reno but California sits between Reno and Sheridan, so which one is it supposed to be?Sheridan is the unit block N & S, and Santa Fe is the unit block for the E & W. The address for the Colcord Hotel is 15 N. Robinson. If it were located on the Southside of Sheridan it's address most likely (would/could) be 15 S. Robinson.

Have never needed to look real close and I did think Reno was the dividing line.
Learned me something today. Thanks for that.

Have never needed to look real close and I did think Reno was the dividing line.
Learned me something today. Thanks for that.Here is some more useless info. Had the Colcord been built on the Eastside of Robinson, it's address would/could have been 14 N./S. Robinson

The County Jail?


Just kidding - I don't have a dog in this fight but a multi-purpose race course would be nice.

There is a small race track on the southwest side; when it is in use, you can't be in your yard or try to sleep because of the noise. It is just horrible. I would never wish a race track on ANY part of the city. But if someone out in the boonies having NO neighbors and a section of land wanted to do a racetrack, fine.

County jail? Couldn't be in our part of the city; we're not in Oklahoma County.

The northside/southside "argument" is just ridiculous. We need to look at what is good for Oklahoma City, not just part of it.

Nick, when you are 20 years older, I hope that you still have the same zeal and have grown from the wisdom that additional years almost always seem to bring ... aging a good wine, so to speak. I really don't think that you are grasping the point that Steve was/is trying to make.

Fair enough Doug, but as for your analogy, I think it would be much cooler if you compared me to a sixpack of Keystone rather than a good wine..lol (sarcasm)

Fair enough Doug, but as for your analogy, I think it would be much cooler if you compared me to a sixpack of Keystone rather than a good wine..lol (sarcasm)
Consider it done ... the comparison is amended accordingly.

so what happen when reno runs to lets say mid/del city is it not the dividing N/S street ?

so what happen when reno runs to lets say mid/del city is it not the dividing N/S street ?Do what?

Del City divides at Reno, not that there's a whole lot north of Reno in Del City.

Midwest City varies. In the older part of town, the zero point is Mid-America Blvd. at SE 29th. (NE 10th is about the 3800 block north.) Anything east of Woodside Drive (8500 E) is basically on the OKC grid, with Reno as the N/S divider. Through streets (Air Depot, Reno, Midwest Blvd., NE 10/23, SE 15/29) use the OKC numbers regardless.

The address of the Bricktown Ballpark is 2 SOUTH Mickey Mantle. Mickey Mantle's Steakhouse is 7 SOUTH Mickey Mantle. The canal Water Taxi ticket kiosk is 11 SOUTH Mickey Mantle, and the entire canal resides on the SOUTH side, according to street address. The Ford Center, if its address were on a N-S street instead of an E-W street, would have a SOUTH SIDE address. Same with the Cox Center and the Myriad Botanical Gardens. The Chesapeake Boathouse is 725 SOUTH Lincoln Boulevard, and all of the river's improvements are on the SOUTH side. The C2S park and all of its improvements, according to drawings? SOUTH side. Convention center? Well the location is yet TBD according to most involved, but the sites getting the most discussion are on the SOUTH side.

Sheridan is the dividing line, not Reno, not the river, but as others have pointed out, downtown is EVERYBODY's neighborhood and really shouldn't even be categorized as any directional part of town other than its center. To say that downtown projects are "northside" projects is to say that southsiders don't hang out in Bricktown, or go to concerts, or go to baseball/basketball/arena football/hockey games. It's simply not true.

Now, do plenty of southsiders rarely if ever frequent those areas, and do their dining and going out somewhere else in the city, I-240 perhaps? Sure. But there are PLENTY of northsiders who rarely make it south of NW 63rd, or even Memorial road.

Mostly northside/southside is a state of mind rather than a geographical thing. But to say that downtown MAPS projects were only for northsiders is silly, innaccurate, and intellectually dishonest.