Last week i read a story in usa today that stated 67% of all kids coming out of high school who go to community colleges, never get a bachelors degree or any degree of any kind. WOW! I was kinda shocked by that. If you watched the local news last week the story of okccc next fall maybe turning kids away next fall because of over crowding made me think. Ive heard horror stories at all 3 of our community schools osu/okc, rose state, and okccc having advisors who stroll these kids along knowing they are never going anywhere, but as long as they keep paying that tuition its all good. I recently stepped foot on both osu/okc and okccc campuses and you see 2 very different things. At osu/okc its not to lively the kids and adults go to class and go home, and at okccc it looked like a high schools part 2 all over again. What do you guys think? Do these schools have staff who actually care and want students and older adults to suceed? Do the teachers who teach there actually care? Or is that article i read really true that if you end up at a community college your chances of transferring to a 4yr or getting an associates almost is not gonna happen.

I doubt OKCCC is too worried about that tuition they hand over, especially seeing that they give all Oklahoma City Public School graduates two free years at O-CCC. Which probably lends to it's highschool-like experience, since a lot of high school seniors who don't attend other colleges end up going there together instead for free.

A) I know a professor at OCCC and he very much cares for his students and wants them to succeed. Many people don't know this but we have an academy award winning producer right here in OKC....Gray Frederickson won the award for The Godfather Part 2. This is not the guy I know but I've known people that have taken classes from him and they say he's quite good and will go out of his way to help those students that are really serious about making films.
Gray Frederickson - Awards (http://www.imdb.com/name/nm0292875/awards)

B) I have 2 bachelors degrees from UCO and in all my time at that university, I can assure you that people DO transfer and they DO graduate with a bachelors degrees. One of my very good friends started at Rose State, took as many computer classes as he could and learned to program....came to UCO and got really high grades in a CS degree....then he went on to University of Tulsa to get a masters degree in security. Now his masters degree is one of the few in the country that helps train cyber warriors and he's now working for the US Govt in a top secret job. His starting salary was in the 6 figure range.

C) The problem IMO lies not with the community colleges but with the parents and students. They are ultimately the only ones to blame when their kids fail to perform at top levels. Middle and High Schools do have some of the burden because when kids grow up here in OKC public schools, we know that we can graduate without ever really having to study. The curriculums are easy and the tests are not difficult. Expectations are low and only certain classes will ever really push students (i.e. AP classes and other advanced classes).

Why is C important? Because it creates an attitude that education is easy...when education becomes difficult, many people think it's time to move on to something easier. Study habits are not well developed and the value of an education is not recognized. People settle for mediocrity and accept that certain things are just beyond them.

When they don't know what they want to do with their lives, they simply spend time and money at community colleges to satisfy parents and friends. Because their study habits have not been developed, when they have to really work hard to make grades, they simply drift off.

Now I saw this mentality at UCO also. There were people that complained about how hard a class was and I would always reply, "It's college, it's supposed to be hard." and/or "Everything is easy when you know how to do it." Many of the students would go 1 - 2 years.....when it got difficult...they just drifted off and we never saw them again.

This is NOT the primary fault of the educational system. However all these institutions also have some problems. I've had horrendous professors and textbooks that if I didn't know any better, were designed to keep people coming back year after year.

However, I worked my ass off and when a book and/or a professor sucked, I found a new resource to learn the material. Why? Because I'm responsible for my education! I was able to graduate with very high grades and in 3.5 years because I would not be denied. Many students simply don't posses this level of responsibility.

Ok.....long post but I don't think it's fair to simply blame the community colleges and leave it at that. Yes I do believe that all educational systems here in Oklahoma can improve and we should strive to help them do so....but you can't simply condemn them because of the laziness of students.

Well, since no one has said anything about Rose, I can say that they do strive to make connections with 4 year institutions to give an option for their students to transfer to when they do finish an associates.

It needs to be noted that the majority of junior colleges offer two types of programs. One is a ladder to a four year school, the other is a ladder to gainful employment.

Most people attend junior colleges for the purpose of landing gainful employment. The people I met while going to OSU-OKC were mainly single parents who had do something to obtain a better job or face a life of scraping by public assistance. Unfortunately, the majority of high school kids dropped classes when the professor expected them to carry their own water.

I will admit that OSU-OKC did a pretty good job of coaching people towards the degrees that had the potential of transferring to 4 Year schools. I should also mention they are now offering bachelor degrees in a handful of fields.

I agree wth much of what has been written here.

I had kids, first, then went to community college, transferred to a four year to finish, then law school. That is the way it is supposed to work unless someone is working on an associate degree or just for fun. I had limited help from the school with making sure the courses transferred but I know they tried - and I showed up at their door asking for direction. I was fairly terrified that my courses wouldn't transfer because, frankly, I had neither the time or money to waste. If I'd have had to take an extra summer school course, or, got forbid, had to go another semester, that was child care expenses I couldn't afford and would slow me down on graduating and getting a decent job. I was in my mid twenties so not exactly a kid. Plus, I had three children of my own so was used to having responsibility.

Lots of kids these days have an entirely different mindset in that they show up, expect someone to fill out their forms, point them in the right direction, supply them with a pen and paper and take the blame if they fall between the cracks. I work with these kids and their parents and there truly is the notion that all they have to do is write a check and show up. If the courses don't transfer or they don't get their assignments done, someone else should have made sure that didn't happen. Back in Northern Virginia, it is absolutely mind blowing how many kids drop out of highschool, get their GED and then go to the community college. Then wonder why they don't do well. Most drop out because they can't handle even that much structure and responsibility.

In that part of the country, getting a high school diploma is rapidly becoming more a social thing than a necessary thing. Kids drop out of school right and left and their parents buy their line that they are just too "mature" for highschool but notwithstanding that they couldn't even function there, they will suddenly have a personality conversation and excell in the community colleges. Most - MOST - wash out. We are raising a generation of irresponsible, incompetent illiterates. And if the parents care at all, their main involvement is to go cause a scene at the school if someone hasn't properly taken care of their 20 year old baby. The baby, btw, just stands there with his hands in his pocket letting his mama fight his battles.

Obviously, not all kids are like that. I say most, and that is surely an exaggeration (although not with the GED kids). But many are and the numbers are increasing. I talk to higher ed professors who tell me the same thing - "kids" under age 35 need to be babysat. They can't make decisions. They want someone to remind them to do their homework. One professor friend of mine e-mails the course assignment to each and every one of his students after class (this is a professional level class). When I expressed surprise he said if he did that, they couldn't come back and claim he hadn't reminded them. When the hell did this mindset get started? I asked if it helped and he admitted that many still don't do the work but he now can point to the e-mail and they can't claim he didn't tell them or wasn't clear. Easier on the professor than having to deal with big crybabies. And his students all already have four year college degrees...

This isn't something you can blame the community colleges for. Their classes are dreadfully easy, and if you're a community college flunky, that's 100% on you.

That said, on a macro level, some blame must be assigned to the culture of zero accountability we've allowed to persist in our primary and secondary school systems. Zero accountability for parents, zero for teachers and zero for students. I agree that there's this odd to understand notion a lot of folks have that they don't need to participate in their education in order to be educated -- a concept which on its face is utterly foolish.

So what about this accountability thing? What if it is implemented? What then? Do we just accept the fact that kids will be flunking out of high school at an unprecedented level? Could we make parents of these kids who underperform criminally liable for their kids' lack of performance? Doesn't sound likely to me that many would go along with that.

The only thing I can imagine working is to create real accountability very early on -- make kids understand that if they perform well in school, participate in class, etc., they'll be better rewarded and if they don't, they'll spend recess in intense skills classes, etc.

All I know is that the issue is fundamental and cultural and cannot be addressed by blaming the system, the parents or the kids. Everyone shares responsibility for our failures and if success is to be achieved, everyone has to participate in the change to come.

I can't speak to OSU/Okc but as far as OKCCC, I would state just the opposite of the article. I attended OKCCC and did all my undergraduate classes that I could to save some money. I found that I actually had to work very hard for my grades and that the teachers and staff were phenominal! They had resources that provide for additional help in the labs, Math and Science! They did not just solve your issues, like some of those services tend to do, rather they made sure that you understood the concepts and could apply and solve them on your own. Critical for cross application and critical thinking.

When I did transfer to the great University of Oklahoma, I was preparing myself to really have to step up my game, and When I got to OU, I was blowing all the curves! I couldn't believe it! I was constatntly surprised by how evident it was that many of the students were very aware of the grading and new that if they all just did enough to get by the curve would swoop in and save them. The only problem with that is that you can pass a class with a B or C average and not remember much if anything useful to take on with you into the next or to apply to your chosen field of study and a future job! I was stunned!

This is not a commentary against the faculty of OU however because I found them to be excellent and committed to providing a top notch educational experience regardless of what those who attended were willing to absorb.

I will admit that things like quality can run in cycles and admittedly it has been many years since I was a student there, so cannot vouch for its current status. I hope that it is the same. I felt that OKCCC and others like it were a definate boon to increasing the number of college educated folk that we have in our city, and as an extension was a great incubator for providing the educated workforce that large companies look for in relocations to the area. Anything that can be done to strengthen them is a good thing.

It was also great that OU had been evaluating the curriculum at OKCCC just prior to my attendance and had deemed the courses to be equivalient or more advanced and difficult than thier own, and as a result had approved accepting all courses from OKCCC without the scrutiny and often the possibility of having to retake the same course again. I hope that is still the same!

Ok you can't just say a class is dreadfully easy just because it is taken at a 2 year school. there are more than plenty of courses offered at OCCC that are nowhere near dreadfully easy

I'm not worried about it. You have to look at these numbers and ask the right questions. How many of these students are looking to get a 4 year degree? How many of them really aren't cut out for college? How many of them even want to be there? I know a lot of people who went to junior college. A lot of them went because they didn't know what else to do. Now, I knew pretty early that I was going to law school. I loved the sound of my own voice and would argue with anybody. ;) But some people don't find their calling so easily. They go to college because "that's what you're supposed to do". Maybe they aren't mature enough for it yet, maybe they get pregnant, maybe after a year they decide to join the military. I knew a lot of honors students in high school who drifted aimlessly for a few years until something happened to give them direction in life. I had my ten year reunion a few years ago, and these guys had all figured out what they were doingin life, and had families and good jobs.

Now, that's not the traditional path you're supposed to take, but there's nothing particularly wrong with it either. A lot of people look at jr college as a continuation of high school, a year or two for them to figure out what they want to do with their lives. I don't see it as a failure of the system. Better to waste a year paying tuition at Rose State than to waste a year paying tuition at OU.

Ok you can't just say a class is dreadfully easy just because it is taken at a 2 year school. there are more than plenty of courses offered at OCCC that are nowhere near dreadfully easy

Yup.

I agree wth much of what has been written here.

Lots of kids these days have an entirely different mindset in that they show up, expect someone to fill out their forms, point them in the right direction, supply them with a pen and paper and take the blame if they fall between the cracks. I work with these kids and their parents and there truly is the notion that all they have to do is write a check and show up.

We are raising a generation of irresponsible, incompetent illiterates. And if the parents care at all, their main involvement is to go cause a scene at the school if someone hasn't properly taken care of their 20 year old baby. The baby, btw, just stands there with his hands in his pocket letting his mama fight his battles.

All I can say is, "AMEN"!!!!!!! I went to a community college, graduated; went to OSU, graduated; went to UCO, graduated; & went to OU, graduated [yep, 4 degrees above zero], taught college, junior high, and high school. Been there, done it, seen it, and watched with dismay as the attitudes toward personal responsibility changed. By the time I retired from teaching, the kids were walking around basically saying, "my folks have a lawyer on retainer; you have to do what 'I' want." I'm glad I don't teach any more.

It really isn't the community colleges that are to blame; it isn't the public schools either, in spite of what a lot of people like to think. "Personal responsibility" is the key. I've seen students from all socio-economic groups, ethnic groups, ability levels, disabilities, and age ranges. It's all about "attitude." Period. Parents HAVE to instill 'work habits' and 'taking responsibility' into their children at the get-go; otherwise, the child better have a real inner "drive" to succeed, or nothing happens.

As for "good" or "bad" professors/teachers, yes. There are some of each in the academic environment...just like there are "good" or "bad" bosses, co-workers, neighbors.

So to answer the question: community colleges are just as "valuable" as the individual is willing to make of them. If the person puts "nothing" in; he or she will get "nothing" out.

I'm not worried about it. You have to look at these numbers and ask the right questions. How many of these students are looking to get a 4 year degree? How many of them really aren't cut out for college? How many of them even want to be there? I know a lot of people who went to junior college. A lot of them went because they didn't know what else to do. Now, I knew pretty early that I was going to law school. I loved the sound of my own voice and would argue with anybody. ;) But some people don't find their calling so easily. They go to college because "that's what you're supposed to do". Maybe they aren't mature enough for it yet, maybe they get pregnant, maybe after a year they decide to join the military. I knew a lot of honors students in high school who drifted aimlessly for a few years until something happened to give them direction in life. I had my ten year reunion a few years ago, and these guys had all figured out what they were doingin life, and had families and good jobs.

Now, that's not the traditional path you're supposed to take, but there's nothing particularly wrong with it either. A lot of people look at jr college as a continuation of high school, a year or two for them to figure out what they want to do with their lives. I don't see it as a failure of the system. Better to waste a year paying tuition at Rose State than to waste a year paying tuition at OU.
You make an excellent point that I think get's lost in the shuffle a lot of times and that is.....there are more than a few paths through life.....there are literally as many paths as there are people in the world. It's unfortunate that more people don't realize this.

You know, I've always thought the current system of HS, College, Grad School/first job, is a bit too structured for my tastes. I was a late bloomer in life and unfortunately, I allowed myself to be forced onto the path. Now it hasn't been all bad but I wonder just what I could have accomplished had I been encouraged and supported to find my own way into meaningful employment.

However, I can NOT blame anyone for this. When so many people follow similar paths and life seems to work out well for the vast majority of them, it's kind of hard to say that our current system is broken.

Also....I went along with the whole process, fighting it all the way only to find myself ill equipped for a career. So after many years of hard work, I went back to Uni to get more skills and retool for a much more compatible profession for me. Looking back on my life, I realize that I should have followed my own path a lot sooner.

I took a Java class at OCCC last fall and it was just as challenging as a similar class at most 4 years. The dropout rate doesn't surprise me considering only 5 out of 20+ finished the course.

I hate to seem like an elitist, but in my honest opinion there are too many people going to college for the completely wrong reasons. I see some people who completely lack motivation/talent/desire to go to school but do so anyway because 1) it's "the thing to do", 2) coercion from parents/family (not wanting to be the one whose kid ended up a "failure"), and/or 3) they just want to go for "the college experience".

A lot of these people end up in majors that they're not very interested in in the first place, and will probably not get them anywhere career-wise because of career prospects within the field itself (ie journalism and some liberal arts areas), their lack of aptitude, or more likely a combination of the two. As a result, they waste a substantial amount of money (especially at universities like OU/OSU as opposed to junior colleges) and time that could have better been spent elsewhere.

There shouldn't be a stigma attached to not going to a 4-year college. It seems as if a college education treated by many as more of a middle-class rite of passage than anything else these days. The idea that you will never succeed unless you get a college education is ridiculous...it is more so YOURSELF that matters than anything else. If you're an unmotivated college student who graduates with mediocre grades and a practically useless degree in something that you have zero passion about, then you're practically worse off (due to student loans) than the HS graduate working at Walmart. However, truly motivated people can find a way to succeed with or without a college degree. I think that especially in the former case, it would be best to send kids to trade schools and junior colleges...that way they will obtain skills that are actually useful.

The idea that you will never succeed unless you get a college education is ridiculous..

So you're saying there's no correlation between a 4-year degree and a higher income?

So you're saying there's no correlation between a 4-year degree and a higher income?

Succeed and higher income are two different things. If I had to do it over again, I'd learn to lay tile or be a plumber.

I hate to seem like an elitist, but in my honest opinion there are too many people going to college for the completely wrong reasons. I see some people who completely lack motivation/talent/desire to go to school but do so anyway because 1) it's "the thing to do", 2) coercion from parents/family (not wanting to be the one whose kid ended up a "failure"), and/or 3) they just want to go for "the college experience".


That's not elitist in the slightest. I think to assume that the only proper path is one to college is far more elitist. I can't remmeber the name of it, nor have I read it, but apparently there is a book out, right now, that discusses how we have reached a point where the substance of our work lacks the same measure of personal/emotional fulfillment that it used to be. Some people like to make things, or see the results of their work and I personally think that makes sense - even from an evolutionary standpoint.

I don't know about that. I think we've hit a point now where we have the luxury of doing work we find fulfilling (some of us, anyway). It wasn't so long ago that 90% of people were subsistence farmers who lived in houses with dirt floors.

You can be successful in America without a college degree. And by "successful", I mean, have a decent job, own a home, provide for your family, etc. You will have to work hard, but that's the case anywhere.

I guess I view jucos as a good way to delay commitment. Don't know what you want to do when you get out of high school? Go to junior college. It doesn't cost that much and it lets you have a year or two (or three...) to think things over. No one really expects you to make anything of yourself yet anyway. Hell, it's better than what I did. I waited until I finished law school before I realized I had no idea what kind of job I wanted to get. My first real job (ever) was at a law firm, and I decided within two months that I hated it. Oops. Luckily, things eventually worked out for me. But I wish I'd figured that out when I was 19 instead of waiting until I was 25 and had $100K in debt.

I suspect very few people know what they want to do right out of highschool. The difference is that back in the day, working was something you did to support yourself. People were expected to do that at 18-20. This delayed adolescence into the late twenties is an extremely new concept and I personally think it has caused a lot of people to be very unhappy in their lives. To play for a decade before settling down to a full time job is a shock. The ones who have always worked take it for what it is - a means to an end and it seems normal to them.

I hate to seem like an elitist, but in my honest opinion there are too many people going to college for the completely wrong reasons. I see some people who completely lack motivation/talent/desire to go to school but do so anyway because 1) it's "the thing to do", 2) coercion from parents/family (not wanting to be the one whose kid ended up a "failure"), and/or 3) they just want to go for "the college experience".

A lot of these people end up in majors that they're not very interested in in the first place, and will probably not get them anywhere career-wise because of career prospects within the field itself (ie journalism and some liberal arts areas), their lack of aptitude, or more likely a combination of the two. As a result, they waste a substantial amount of money (especially at universities like OU/OSU as opposed to junior colleges) and time that could have better been spent elsewhere.

There shouldn't be a stigma attached to not going to a 4-year college. It seems as if a college education treated by many as more of a middle-class rite of passage than anything else these days. The idea that you will never succeed unless you get a college education is ridiculous...it is more so YOURSELF that matters than anything else. If you're an unmotivated college student who graduates with mediocre grades and a practically useless degree in something that you have zero passion about, then you're practically worse off (due to student loans) than the HS graduate working at Walmart. However, truly motivated people can find a way to succeed with or without a college degree. I think that especially in the former case, it would be best to send kids to trade schools and junior colleges...that way they will obtain skills that are actually useful.
I agree with you and this is an excellent post.

I was a late bloomer and went to college simply to fulfill my "requirements" as a good son. But I didn't have the first clue what I wanted to do. My families profession was accounting. I'm the youngest of 5 kids and every single one of us studied accounting. 4 of us got degrees in it (the other went for management) and 3 of us are CPAs....not me...I friggin HATE that crap.

Thing is, for people like me that may be less focused, more care free, are more creative and enjoy doing things differently, the standard educational system just doesn't seem to work. Then when you have the siblings I do, who all seemed to "do the right thing" it's even more difficult to find your way because they just say, "do what we did" instead of "find your own way"

I too would be a plumber but I would do that with computers. I mean who wants to deal with sewage anyways. My mom talks about her plumber driving brand new Cadillacs so you know it pays well.

Succeed and higher income are two different things. If I had to do it over again, I'd learn to lay tile or be a plumber.

AGREED!!!!! I would love to have done something "different." Today, if I were a young person looking at what to do, I think I would pick a trade--something that would require some "craft" to it.....or I would change directions completely and do something like forensic handwriting analysis. I was a teacher; tried my best to be the best, but feel like it was a life/career wasted.

I honestly think that these part time colleges are just that... something for the majority of people to do in their spare time. However, there are those few, dedicated people who are trying to switch careers or testing the waters to see if they are good enough to get into a 4 year program that benefit from these places. I have a brother who attended OKCCC to get some basic requirement courses completed prior to transferring to UCO.

All in all I guess they are a stepping stone for some, and a dead end for others.

So you're saying there's no correlation between a 4-year degree and a higher income?

I don't think that's what the poster meant. I have no degree and have earned more than most master degreed people I know in for the past 17 years, but I realize that's exceptional. A 4 year degree can and does open doors that someone with no degree, but even with greater skills, would never have a chance at entering. So, certainly there is a correlation between a 4 year degree and higher income in many instances.

But, I've seen vocationally educated people out-earn degreed professionals all of my life. People with electro-mechanical skills and strong troubleshooting ability can almost write their own ticket in many industries, especially if you have PLC experience. Many become independent contractors or start their own design/build businesses. I have known many plumbers that out-earn doctors and attorneys.

Bottom line, is it advisable to get a college degree? Absolutely! IF that is where your passion and interest lies. But is college for everyone? Absolutely not. One thing I have noticed in OKC is that the high schools here, at least the ones that I am personally aware of, have little to offer in the way of vocational education. Where I went to high school, we had electrical, machine shop, welding shop, carpentry, automotive, health sciences, distribution and marketing and more, along with the DECA and VICA orginizations. An 18 YO HS senior could graduate as a certified welder and earn a living wage right out of high school, and many did just that!

It seems OKC high schools have all kids on the academic track, and offer little in the way of vocational education. And that is a huge mistake from my point of view.