View Full Version : As Oklahoma City revitalizes, what’s the long-term solution for its homeless?



urbanity
03-03-2010, 08:28 AM
As Oklahoma City revitalizes, questions arise about long-term state of homeless | OKG Scene.com (http://www.okgazette.com/p/12776/a/5724/Default.aspx?ReturnUrl=LwBkAGUAZgBhAHUAbAB0AC4AYQB zAHAAeAAslashAHAAPQAxADIANwAyADkA)

metro
03-03-2010, 08:39 AM
WestTown is the City's solution long-term:

http://www.okctalk.com/okc-metro-area-talk/20516-west-town.html

PennyQuilts
03-03-2010, 10:00 AM
Very difficult situation. I don't know a city out there that has "solved" its homeless problem but change is always difficult, regardless of where it ends up. Hopefully, things will be put into place for these folks but under the best of circumstances, it is going to negatively impact a certain number of people. I feel bad for them.

mugofbeer
03-03-2010, 10:58 AM
The current recession notwithstanding, in normal times the vast majority of homeless are either mentally challenged, illegals, people who simply prefer the lifestyle or addicts of some sort. As long as the Supreme Court continues to determine that homeless cannot be forced to take meds, cannot be forced to stay in homeless shelters or to accept help, the homeless problem will never be completely resolved.

Charitable organizations and various government programs are out there that should be able to ensure the homeless are fed and there is safe temporary shelter. The real question for the long term isn't so much how to resolve the problem but how to deal with people who, either because of mental problems or addictions, don't want to be helped and prefer to live on the streets.

For the short term, there should be some type of safe emergency shelter, but it absolutely should be located in a highly industrialized part of the city. Homelessness is a problem every city of any size has to deal with, OKC is no different.

OU Adonis
03-03-2010, 11:08 AM
Soyent Green will fix this problem.












I kid

Kerry
03-03-2010, 12:56 PM
They can start by restricting the location of shelters. Since these services support people that are homeless they can be located anywhere. I say they place them way out in the country on a 500 acre farm/ranch. Let them congregate and wonder aimlessly out there. At least they would be a long way from the nearest liquor store and could maybe dry out. In all honesty I think this would be the best thing for them. It would get them away from the temptations an urban environment provides (drugs, liquor, and begging for a living). They might even be able to get them a little farming going and allow them to be become self-sufficient.

USG '60
03-03-2010, 01:22 PM
They can start by restricting the location of shelters. Since these services support people that are homeless they can be located anywhere. I say they place them way out in the country on a 500 acre farm/ranch. Let them congregate and wonder aimlessly out there. At least they would be a long way from the nearest liquor store and could maybe dry out. In all honesty I think this would be the best thing for them. It would get them away from the temptations an urban environment provides (drugs, liquor, and begging for a living). They might even be able to get them a little farming going and allow them to be become self-sufficient.

Kerry, my first response to this was Yeah, WHY NOT. Then my mind began to think about it. Why ISN'T this done on a regular basis, I wondered. Then it dawned on me that the down trodden have for all of history migrated to cities; into their bowels even. And I suppose that is because of the chances of stumbling onto something useful or etible are much greater there. I also imagine that the mentally ill and the emotionally numb require sensory imput to remind them they are alive at all. Rural environments are far less stimulating because of the wide expanses of sameness. Also, fewer places to crash with even an inkling of safety.

Any homeless shelters out in the country will have no drop-ins. They would have to be bused there after all the formalities, but I can't help but feel that a walking path back to the city would be worn in the ground in fairly short order. I still think it is a good idea but the idea needs some issues ironned out.

Kerry
03-03-2010, 01:46 PM
Kerry, my first response to this was Yeah, WHY NOT. Then my mind began to think about it. Why ISN'T this done on a regular basis, I wondered. Then it dawned on me that the down trodden have for all of history migrated to cities; into their bowels even. And I suppose that is because of the chances of stumbling onto something useful or etible are much greater there. I also imagine that the mentally ill and the emotionally numb require sensory imput to remind them they are alive at all. Rural environments are far less stimulating because of the wide expanses of sameness. Also, fewer places to crash with even an inkling of safety.

Any homeless shelters out in the country will have no drop-ins. They would have to be bused there after all the formalities, but I can't help but feel that a walking path back to the city would be worn in the ground in fairly short order. I still think it is a good idea but the idea needs some issues ironned out.

I hear what you are saying but homeless people didn't all become homeless in downtown OKC. They came to downtown OKC from somewhere else. They usually congregrate in downtowns because that is where the services are. Move the services and they will follow. Come see for yourself in downtown Jackonville. The closer you get to the shelters and soup kitchens the more homeless people you see.

I will say this, if I was homeless I would move to Key West. At least it would be warm and I could see women in bikinis. Want to know why Key West isn't over run with homeless people thinking the same thing? Limited services.

PennyQuilts
03-03-2010, 02:35 PM
I will say this, if I was homeless I would move to Key West. At least it would be warm and I could see women in bikinis.

My husband has frequently expressed amazement that there are so many poor people living up north, adding that he would be walking south to the sunshine states even if he couldn't afford a car. He has never once mentioned the women in bikinis. Hmm. For some reason, I feel like I have had one put over on me.

kevinpate
03-03-2010, 02:37 PM
Key West - the October home of walking talking canvas.
:LolLolLol

USG '60
03-03-2010, 03:01 PM
I hear what you are saying but homeless people didn't all become homeless in downtown OKC. They came to downtown OKC from somewhere else. They usually congregrate in downtowns because that is where the services are. Move the services and they will follow. Come see for yourself in downtown Jackonville. The closer you get to the shelters and soup kitchens the more homeless people you see.

I will say this, if I was homeless I would move to Key West. At least it would be warm and I could see women in bikinis. Want to know why Key West isn't over run with homeless people thinking the same thing? Limited services.

Kerry, we probably have a bit of a chicken/egg issue. I can't help but think that the services are downtown because that is were the homeless were already congregating. And then, of course, more of each came.

The more I think about it the more I think that that sensory input thing the more credence I am giving it. A brain that is largely drained of initiative and creativity, I believe, has to be looking, hearing, smelling and touching things to know that it is alive. Why don't the homeless just sit in exactly the same place and stare at the exact same things all the time, every day, day after day. They might sit in one spot for awhile until their eyes have looked at everything in sight, heard the sounds in that place and touched the things within reach, become bored and move down a block and start all over. SOMEthing makes them move about. Unless they found themselves at a farmhouse and it's environs, the countryside would simply not offer enough variety of stimulation. Regardless, I'll grant that it doesn't take much to "entertain" them. And I will further grant that if Nichols Hills began giving services to the homeless, no one would come unless flyers were distributed downtown with directions. I'm just thinking outloud trying to understand why they do what they do in an effort to get a clearer picture of the best way to deal with the issue from a bleeding heart Libertarian point of view. I know, I know, I'm and oddball. :053: I know for sure that if I found myself homeless and friendless I would certainly hang out near the services. I would LOVE it if someone conceived of and created a rural homeless "compound" that truly worked at both helping families get it together and to protect the mentally deficient. Having worked with the mentally ill for 6 years, like you I wish that we would restablish "mental hospitals" for the cronically and pervasively mentally ill. It would be a boon for them AND the rest of us.

Midtowner
03-03-2010, 03:55 PM
Qu'ils mangent de la brioche.

USG '60
03-03-2010, 03:56 PM
Qu'ils mangent de la brioche.

Beg pardon?

Kerry
03-03-2010, 03:56 PM
Why don't the homeless just sit in exactly the same place and stare at the exact same things all the time, every day, day after day. They might sit in one spot for awhile until their eyes have looked at everything in sight, heard the sounds in that place and touched the things within reach, become bored and move down a block and start all over. SOMEthing makes them move about.

Having worked in downtown Tampa I can tell you some of them do just sit there. Other are mobile but follow the same repeating path every week, probably to stay on the handout schedule. Other appeared to just be passing thru (maybe on the way to Key West for all I know).

@PQ - funny about your husband. Like him, I can't understand why anyone would want to be homeless in Chicago. I would walk to Florida as well. I'll bet if Chicago stopped providing serivces they would leave.

PennyQuilts
03-03-2010, 04:00 PM
Qu'ils mangent de la brioche.

Translation - "Let them eat cake."

Jethrol
03-03-2010, 05:16 PM
What does it actually mean to "solve" the homeless problem? How does that address people that actually choose to live as a homeless person?

USG '60
03-03-2010, 05:19 PM
Translation - "Let them eat cake."

Thanks, princess. :doh:

PennyQuilts
03-03-2010, 05:47 PM
Thanks, princess. :doh:

:smile:

Doug Loudenback
03-03-2010, 07:03 PM
Soyent Green will fix this problem.
I kid
Great movie, though!

Mugofbeer, your description of the homeless into the following groups doesn't completely ring true with me ...


The current recession notwithstanding, in normal times the vast majority of homeless are either mentally challenged, illegals, people who simply prefer the lifestyle or addicts of some sort. As long as the Supreme Court continues to determine that homeless cannot be forced to take meds, cannot be forced to stay in homeless shelters or to accept help, the homeless problem will never be completely resolved.

Charitable organizations and various government programs are out there that should be able to ensure the homeless are fed and there is safe temporary shelter. The real question for the long term isn't so much how to resolve the problem but how to deal with people who, either because of mental problems or addictions, don't want to be helped and prefer to live on the streets.
Sounds like you didn't finish reading all of A Christmas Carol. Last week when driving near but west of Walker & California, I was struck by a youngish looking man and woman (probably in their 30s) with a pair of walking-size children with little else on and with them but backpacks and a few belongings. They were preparing to cross an intersection, where I noticed them. The most noticeable thing that struck me was that they were clearly a unit -- parents closely looking out for the crossing-safety of their children -- and they gave me the impression that they were all clinging together. They were dressed simply but gave no appearance of being unkempt. A sense that I had from the visual images was that they cared about each other and were a family that was down and out, but not dead.

Of course, I don't know the facts of this family, nor do I know if your characterizations are generally correct. Nor do I know a solution.

But, somehow, my suspicion is that forced-meds by government would not solve this family's problems. I won't write a treatise about this here, but will simply close by saying that, despite opportunities which most of us can and do take advantage of in our society, there are those for whom that time-honored formula simply doesn't work. The problem is as complex and varied as are the individuals and families that are caught in the bottom of America's system, which doesn't work for everyone. A solution, or at least a part of it, might begin by acknowledging that, while our system works in varying degrees for most, it does not work for all.

Doug Loudenback
03-03-2010, 07:10 PM
I will say this, if I was homeless I would move to Key West. At least it would be warm and I could see women in bikinis. Want to know why Key West isn't over run with homeless people thinking the same thing? Limited services.
Kerry, I hope that you didn't mean for that to sound as crass and insensitive as it came across to me. Take that family of 4 that I mentioned above ... does that formula work for them ... no or negligible money in their pockets, all hitching to Key West so that the dad can see some beach babes? Probably you didn't mean what you said to come across that way, though.

PennyQuilts
03-03-2010, 07:46 PM
Well, there are homeless people and there are "street" people and while there is definite overlap, they aren't equivalent terms. I think most of the street people are mentally ill, physically ill or drug addicted. A few do it because they prefer it but most have something really bad going on. Man seems hardwired to have a home, however humble.

There are upteen different paths to homelessness and for most people, it is temporary. Someone kicked out of their apartment by an angry girlfriend or wife is homeless. You lose your lease, you had your house foreclosed, you got evicted, etc. Most of those folks who fall under the umbrella of being homeless aren't on the street. They are living with family and friends, a shelter, a motel, etc. But of course, some are on the street - not saying some don't end up there.

I worked with poor families for years. Very, very seldom did they end up on the street. They may have hated their parents and vice versa but someone nearly always took them in, particularly if they have children (grandchildren). Roving from house to house was common - living on the street, including shelters - was extremely uncommon. Not saying it didn't happen but it was quite rare and I dealt with that population, full time. And when they did end up in a shelter, it wasn't for very long, at all. What I would hear from my parents was that it was so awful they were going somewhere else or doing something else - like working. I am not being snide, I am being honest. You may not like what I just wrote because it doesn't fit with your belief system but short of insisting I'm not telling the truth, it is what it is. And don't demand a citation - I'm not going to give it. I am telling what I saw. Raw footage and lots of it. Dismiss my words if you don't like them.

Now all that being said, the people I worked with who ended up homeless were living on the edge. They lacked job skills and/or ambition, some had drug problems, they had dysfunctional families and no idea how to have a healthy personal relationship.

If they were genuinely disabled, we had help for them. Unfortunately, even though they had options, the mentally ill and/or users would often be on the street - but it was not because of a lack of help but because they fought so hard against it. Tragic.

Setting them aside, it was the ones who just were clueless or shiftless that ended up homeless.

That was then, this is now. Now, we have a whole new set of people who have hit on hard times. However, I am here to tell you that I would be shocked if most of those people - who know how to function in society and who aren't afraid to work - are going to end up on the street if they have family, at all. It just does not happen in large numbers. Kids move back in with parents, or the grandparents move in to help out the kids. I saw that, constantly. Even in the most dysfunctional families, who couldn't go a week without getting into some sort of knock down drag out family squabble. The mere fact that you have lost your house does not mean that you are going to go live on the street. Anyone who thinks that, isn't thinking or paying attention. Could it happen? Of course. Will it happen - it might. But the vast majority of newly poor still have options. They may not be attractive - who wants to live with their mother-in-law, after all? But in tough times, families generally step up. If a young, clean cut family is living on the street for any length of time (and I'm talking days), you aren't getting the whole story. If they are "homeless," that is a whole different deal then livng on the street. They may be considered to be homeless for a long time without ever having set foot on the street or under a bridge. Thank god.

hoya
03-03-2010, 09:48 PM
PennyQuilts just said it all. I had a friend, Chris, who became homeless several years ago. The guy's dad died, then a few months later his brother died. He got really depressed and he lost his job. His roommate had moved out, and a month later he had no money and no way to pay rent. He started living out of his car. Just about four or five months earlier, his life was going okay and nobody would have ever guessed something like this would happen. He had a real bad run of bad luck.

Anyway, Chris moved in with a friend, lived there for about two or three months. Then he moved in with the parents of another friend, sleeping on their couch. I'm not sure exactly how long he stayed there. He got on some medication through the VA for his depression, went to Job Corps, and got back on his feet. Yeah, he's still a little (okay, a lot) weird, he's not gonna be running for Governor anytime soon, if you know what I mean (maybe he'll run for Mayor of OKC though ;)). But he's got his own place, his own car, and is holding down a job.

As far as the shelters go, I don't have a problem with moving them to an out of the way location. There are no homeless shelters in Manhattan, as far as I'm aware. You don't want that in the jewel of the city. But they still need to be close to other types of services. They need to be close to a bus station, to a hospital, etc. You can't just stick them out on a farm.

mugofbeer
03-03-2010, 10:15 PM
Mugofbeer, your description of the homeless into the following groups doesn't completely ring true with me ...


Sounds like you didn't finish reading all of A Christmas Carol. Last week when driving near but west of Walker & California, I was struck by a youngish looking man and woman (probably in their 30s) with a pair of walking-size children with little else on and with them but backpacks and a few belongings. They were preparing to cross an intersection, where I noticed them. The most noticeable thing that struck me was that they were clearly a unit -- parents closely looking out for the crossing-safety of their children -- and they gave me the impression that they were all clinging together. They were dressed simply but gave no appearance of being unkempt. A sense that I had from the visual images was that they cared about each other and were a family that was down and out, but not dead.

Sounds like you and your politically correct viewpoint didn't read my post. And as I said, "The current recession notwithstanding, in normal times the vast majority of homeless are either mentally challenged, illegals, people who simply prefer the lifestyle or addicts of some sort." (I will also throw in physically handicapped)

After working in downtown locations in both Dallas and Denver, I've had a great many years of observation of the homeless in those areas. In normal economic times, the vast majority of homeless are there for the reasons I stated above. Prove me wrong.

I do not hold to the politically correct viewpoint that the majority of homeless are like most of us. Nor do I support the homeless advocate "industry" position that the homeless "just need jobs." They are most often alcohol or drug addicted, they are bi-polar, they are schizophrenic and they are mentally challenged. They are sometimes severely handicapped (who should, and may, have benefit of government programs) and others are sometimes unable to speak English and can't find work due to their illegal status.

Of course, I don't know the facts of the family you mention, nor do I know if your characterizations are generally correct. Nor do I know a solution other than there are numerous government and charitable organizations and programs that can help them. I can imagine with people who are not normally in such a position they may not know where to begin to get help.

I've had homeless come into my work and try to deposit rocks, pee on the windows, poop on the windows, walk into a cube and try to change clothes, scream incoherently in our office until the security guards took them away. I've had a fight over a shopping cart spill into my office where one was stabbed by the other. I've tried to take homeless food from the McDonalds and Taco Bell only to be told he "didn't want no GD food, he wanted a drink!" The vast majority are anything but "normal" people who are simply having a tough time.


But, somehow, my suspicion is that forced-meds by government would not solve this family's problems. I won't write a treatise about this here, but will simply close by saying that, despite opportunities which most of us can and do take advantage of in our society, there are those for whom that time-honored formula simply doesn't work. The problem is as complex and varied as are the individuals and families that are caught in the bottom of America's system, which doesn't work for everyone. A solution, or at least a part of it, might begin by acknowledging that, while our system works in varying degrees for most, it does not work for all.

Please re-read what I said. I realize we are in a deep recession and easy observation clearly shows a different classification of homeless in many areas right now. This is (hopefully) a temporary situation. If you would have read, I clearly directed my comments at the long-term situation. With the laws the way they are, you will never see improvement in the homeless situation until the chronically homeless can be forced off the street to take meds and get treatment.

Please do a better job of reading posts before you start casting "bah-humbug's" at people.

Doug Loudenback
03-03-2010, 11:29 PM
No need to be pissy just because you don't like what I said, mugobeer. As far as what "politically correct," I don't know about that. I said what I did because of my personal views, whether they are politically correct or not.

mugofbeer
03-04-2010, 10:41 AM
Your insinuation was very clear and I don't appreciate a personal attack when you clearly didn't read my post thoroughly.

gen70
03-04-2010, 11:31 AM
There will always be homeless people for one or another reasons, and trying to help them is a noble effort. Question is, do you try and help them in the new revitalized area of OKC or in some other location. (I think.. some other location.)

Kerry
03-04-2010, 12:14 PM
There will always be homeless people for one or another reasons, and trying to help them is a noble effort. Question is, do you try and help them in the new revitalized area of OKC or in some other location. (I think.. some other location.)

That is all I was trying to say. Thanks gen70.

Doug Loudenback
03-04-2010, 05:47 PM
Your insinuation was very clear and I don't appreciate a personal attack when you clearly didn't read my post thoroughly.
Fine. You must be right.

Kerry
03-04-2010, 06:31 PM
Doug and Mugofbeer - care to join me a for a Sanka? Steve is buying.

Doug Loudenback
03-04-2010, 06:59 PM
Of course, and thanks for your suggestion ... the real one. Peace to you, mugofbeer.

gen70
03-04-2010, 08:18 PM
Come on, lets not get too carried away on this subject. Do they still sell Sanka?

mugofbeer
03-04-2010, 09:31 PM
Peace to you too, Doug.

Kerry
03-04-2010, 10:17 PM
Come on, lets not get too carried away on this subject. Do they still sell Sanka?

I don't know if they do or not but the next time I am in town Steve is going to have to pay up. If they don't still make it he better start checking on EBAY and Craig's List.

Here is a link to the Urban Dictionary definitions of Sanka. Pretty funny.
Urban Dictionary: Sanka (http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=Sanka)