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MGE1977
02-09-2010, 12:39 PM
I'll preface this thread by saying that if you do not want to hear the gripes of a fireman, it would be adviseable to go on to another topic.

In addendum to my preface I would like to concede that this is probably little more than a troll for sympathy in an environment where little can be had for public safety. I'll not have this turned into a MIII discussion, nor a Mfuture discussion, and by that I mean that I will not participate further than this opening if it is turned into such.

I spent approximately 5 hours on early Sunday morning (02-07-2010), along with OCFD companies from 4 alarms, defending the Red Cross Command center as well as other structures from impinging flames as they poured from the Rocket Skate Rink.

My company stood with 3 other companies in 2 inches of standing water wielding handlines from atop the Red Cross building as overhead powerlines arched and wailed expostulations at our efforts. We did this because it is in our tactical objectives, we risk a lot to save a lot, this is the job.

We had to do it this way because a first due ladder pipe, (14's truck) was incapable of producing water from its master stream, (a pipe which from a nozzle at the tip of the ladder can produce 1000 gallons per minute - requisite for the job of putting out big fire.)

It was the initial plan for truck 14 to protect the bravo side exposure, the western exposure, (the Red Cross building) and when command was reminded of the fact that 14's had no water capabilities due to failing inspection and being rendered out of service for lack of parts and maintenance personnel to place them, we were sent aloft to make a stand in front of now 30-50 foot rolling flames. During this time, as OG&E was making the roof safe by cutting power to overhead feeder lines, it was still highly volatile with the arcs from said lines in their last dying attempts flashing above and around us.

Why did 14's not have ladder pipe capabilities? If you have read previous threads, the answer is readily apparent, but if not allow me to regail you. It is because the money that was set aside for the maintenace and upkeep of vital FD equipment, which was to be used to keep ladders functional and in good operations, was re-routed to the busch league hockey team that city government is courting.

It has been said in previous threads that public safety are whining ingrates who only want more at the expense of the taxpayer. There are lawyers and doctors and the like in these threads who would have our unions villified for no other reason than conflicting ideologies. It is as if, because these truths reflecting the constant neglect of good faith negotiations by our city government, has only of late been exposed (as the result of a highly charged political atmosphere), they never before existed.

I don't think that it can be contested that public safety is a money suck. I don't think that it can be contested that our city is moving in a proactive and foreward thinking way. I think that public safety and in fact the public are ready to move foreward.

In light of what I have read in previous threads that "Police and Fire Unions are to be made to beg for table scraps..." that we are in some way to assume subservience before our time weary requests are to be heard, I can only suggest that the cost of this kind of thinking will be substantial.

This, while not historic certainly nostalgic, building was doomed by factors out of the FD's control, it was simply burning unnoticed for too long. Our stand was for the exposures, some of which were distanced a mere 10 feet from the blaze. There may come a time where something vital is lost, something of such gravity as to bring this entropic debate back to center, back to the good of the public. Perhaps not, but as we are paid for what we may be called to do, so should a public be weary of neglecting this service.

Again, if you have read this far and wish only to hear the complainings of a fireman, you've wasted your time. I do not wish to have another job, and we will continue to provide the best care and service possible limited by only that which we are given to do our jobs safely and effectively, we are in fact public servants, the public does in fact pay our salaries and we are in fact all living in trying exonomic times. What would one choose to spend their money on, if not safety? Surely minor league hockey hasn't that kind of apppeal.

Rescue_Company_One
02-09-2010, 03:52 PM
OK, So I have been reading these posts for months now and I think its time I put my 2 cents in. I am not trying to start a pissing match. But there are 3 sides to every story. Yours, Mine, and the Truth.

1. You Risk a lot to save a lot. Chief Alan Brunacini of Pheonix meant it different than you post it. here is what he actually said.
Chief Alan Brunacini (1985, 2002) wrote;
• We will risk our lives a lot, in a highly calculated and controlled manner, to protect a savable human life;
• We will risk our lives a little, in a highly calculated and controlled manner, to protect savable property.
• We will not risk our lives at all to protect lives or property that is already lost.”

So should you really have been on a roof in Sub Zero temps, while electrical lines(Why were utilities not controlled prior to your entering the roof?) "wailed expostulations" above your head?? Could you not have set up some Portable deck guns or Stepguns?? Do you guys have any Blitzfire monitors?? Ever hear the phrase work Smarter not Harder??? It has to do with safety as well. Why are we risking our lives to save a building??? Its Property, not a life. All the exposures should have been evac'd right away.


2. If 14s truck was rendered OOS (Which has happened to me as well at scenes and it does suck a lot), Where were the other 7 aerials on scene?? Assuming 2 Aerials to an alarm and 4 alarms, not counting the Quints you guys have. Did you only position 1 Aerial for Defense??? You act as if this has never before happened in the history of Firefighting. This happens all the time, You pull up and the hydrant is dead, You suck a rock into the pump, The supply line breaks, TRUCKS BREAK! It happens, which is why you plan for the worst and hope for the best.

3. Maintenance. Hmmmm. Seems I drive I-44 all the tie and look into a see of Reserve fire trucks sitting outside in the weather just rusting and wasting away to nothing. Did the Maintenance only become an Issue at that Fire?? The IAFF is very strong. Isnt that what they are for???? To fight for better safer working conditions???

4. Does OKC FD not have an apparatus replacement program?? If so they usually (IAFF) get pretty pissy when the City blows them off.

5. There are cities all across the Country where the fire service is being **** on. Not just here. It is a very hard job and sometimes public safety gets screwed to bring sometihng else into the city. Just like here. And while I dont agree, Look at it from a citizens point of view, not that of a firefighter. Fire Dept does not bring revenue to the city. An AHL Hockey team probably will. Would you rather go look at Firehouses all night or watch a hockey game???

Oklahoma City is well ahead of a lot of other places. How many Firefighters do you have on an Engine??? Ladder?? Rescue Company?? You still have Chiefs Aides for crap sakes. You have Leiutenants Driving. In most Cities across the country, You have 1 Captain(Major), 3 Leiutenants and 12 Firefighter assigned to most ffront line suppression companies. Meaning you have an Officer OIC, A driver, and 1 Firefighter per shift. Not Really safe but thats where they are. You guys are ahead of the curve a lot. So While I totally agree that they should be replacing units (Engines every 8-10 years and Ladders every 12-15 years), You must acknowledge what you do have.

Oklahoma City is a Fantastic Fire Department. I sat and talked with Jon Hansen and heard the stories of this wonderful Fire Department that pulled together in 1995 and were as strong as a rock. I know USAR team members that were deployed here for that incident and told me of couragous acts that you did. What happened to the Strong Positive Fire Department that I have heard so much about??? Maybe you guys should spend less time being negative about it all and actually Educate the Public on not only what you do but what you use and need to do it. And maybe some of you should read "Essentials of Fire Department Customer Service" by Alan V. Brunacini. Its a good book. Might help you out a little. I think I even have an extra copy laying around somewhere.

Good Luck OCFD. I am pulling for you guys to get what you need to do the job.

Stay Safe.

OKC@heart
02-09-2010, 04:09 PM
OK, So I have been reading these posts for months now and I think its time I put my 2 cents in. I am not trying to start a pissing match. But there are 3 sides to every story. Yours, Mine, and the Truth.

1. You Risk a lot to save a lot. Chief Alan Brunacini of Pheonix meant it different than you post it. here is what he actually said.
Chief Alan Brunacini (1985, 2002) wrote;
We will risk our lives a lot, in a highly calculated and controlled manner, to protect a savable human life;
We will risk our lives a little, in a highly calculated and controlled manner, to protect savable property.
We will not risk our lives at all to protect lives or property that is already lost.

So should you really have been on a roof in Sub Zero temps, while electrical lines(Why were utilities not controlled prior to your entering the roof?) "wailed expostulations" above your head?? Could you not have set up some Portable deck guns or Stepguns?? Do you guys have any Blitzfire monitors?? Ever hear the phrase work Smarter not Harder??? It has to do with safety as well. Why are we risking our lives to save a building??? Its Property, not a life. All the exposures should have been evac'd right away.


2. If 14s truck was rendered OOS (Which has happened to me as well at scenes and it does suck a lot), Where were the other 7 aerials on scene?? Assuming 2 Aerials to an alarm and 4 alarms, not counting the Quints you guys have. Did you only position 1 Aerial for Defense??? You act as if this has never before happened in the history of Firefighting. This happens all the time, You pull up and the hydrant is dead, You suck a rock into the pump, The supply line breaks, TRUCKS BREAK! It happens, which is why you plan for the worst and hope for the best.

3. Maintenance. Hmmmm. Seems I drive I-44 all the tie and look into a see of Reserve fire trucks sitting outside in the weather just rusting and wasting away to nothing. Did the Maintenance only become an Issue at that Fire?? The IAFF is very strong. Isnt that what they are for???? To fight for better safer working conditions???

4. Does OKC FD not have an apparatus replacement program?? If so they usually (IAFF) get pretty pissy when the City blows them off.

5. There are cities all across the Country where the fire service is being **** on. Not just here. It is a very hard job and sometimes public safety gets screwed to bring sometihng else into the city. Just like here. And while I dont agree, Look at it from a citizens point of view, not that of a firefighter. Fire Dept does not bring revenue to the city. An AHL Hockey team probably will. Would you rather go look at Firehouses all night or watch a hockey game???

Oklahoma City is well ahead of a lot of other places. How many Firefighters do you have on an Engine??? Ladder?? Rescue Company?? You still have Chiefs Aides for crap sakes. You have Leiutenants Driving. In most Cities across the country, You have 1 Captain(Major), 3 Leiutenants and 12 Firefighter assigned to most ffront line suppression companies. Meaning you have an Officer OIC, A driver, and 1 Firefighter per shift. Not Really safe but thats where they are. You guys are ahead of the curve a lot. So While I totally agree that they should be replacing units (Engines every 8-10 years and Ladders every 12-15 years), You must acknowledge what you do have.

Oklahoma City is a Fantastic Fire Department. I sat and talked with Jon Hansen and heard the stories of this wonderful Fire Department that pulled together in 1995 and were as strong as a rock. I know USAR team members that were deployed here for that incident and told me of couragous acts that you did. What happened to the Strong Positive Fire Department that I have heard so much about??? Maybe you guys should spend less time being negative about it all and actually Educate the Public on not only what you do but what you use and need to do it. And maybe some of you should read "Essentials of Fire Department Customer Service" by Alan V. Brunacini. Its a good book. Might help you out a little. I think I even have an extra copy laying around somewhere.

Good Luck OCFD. I am pulling for you guys to get what you need to do the job.

Stay Safe.

I really appreciate the candor and positive but pragmatic approach to your post. It is infused with the lets do the best that we can with what we have and work to make it better, but without the rhetoric. Thanks for your true concern and thoughtful analysis.

MGE1977
02-09-2010, 04:43 PM
OK, So I have been reading these posts for months now and I think its time I put my 2 cents in. I am not trying to start a pissing match. But there are 3 sides to every story. Yours, Mine, and the Truth.

1. You Risk a lot to save a lot. Chief Alan Brunacini of Pheonix meant it different than you post it. here is what he actually said.
Chief Alan Brunacini (1985, 2002) wrote;
• We will risk our lives a lot, in a highly calculated and controlled manner, to protect a savable human life;
• We will risk our lives a little, in a highly calculated and controlled manner, to protect savable property.
• We will not risk our lives at all to protect lives or property that is already lost.”

So should you really have been on a roof in Sub Zero temps, while electrical lines(Why were utilities not controlled prior to your entering the roof?) "wailed expostulations" above your head?? Could you not have set up some Portable deck guns or Stepguns?? Do you guys have any Blitzfire monitors?? Ever hear the phrase work Smarter not Harder??? It has to do with safety as well. Why are we risking our lives to save a building??? Its Property, not a life. All the exposures should have been evac'd right away.


2. If 14s truck was rendered OOS (Which has happened to me as well at scenes and it does suck a lot), Where were the other 7 aerials on scene?? Assuming 2 Aerials to an alarm and 4 alarms, not counting the Quints you guys have. Did you only position 1 Aerial for Defense??? You act as if this has never before happened in the history of Firefighting. This happens all the time, You pull up and the hydrant is dead, You suck a rock into the pump, The supply line breaks, TRUCKS BREAK! It happens, which is why you plan for the worst and hope for the best.

3. Maintenance. Hmmmm. Seems I drive I-44 all the tie and look into a see of Reserve fire trucks sitting outside in the weather just rusting and wasting away to nothing. Did the Maintenance only become an Issue at that Fire?? The IAFF is very strong. Isnt that what they are for???? To fight for better safer working conditions???

4. Does OKC FD not have an apparatus replacement program?? If so they usually (IAFF) get pretty pissy when the City blows them off.

5. There are cities all across the Country where the fire service is being **** on. Not just here. It is a very hard job and sometimes public safety gets screwed to bring sometihng else into the city. Just like here. And while I dont agree, Look at it from a citizens point of view, not that of a firefighter. Fire Dept does not bring revenue to the city. An AHL Hockey team probably will. Would you rather go look at Firehouses all night or watch a hockey game???

Oklahoma City is well ahead of a lot of other places. How many Firefighters do you have on an Engine??? Ladder?? Rescue Company?? You still have Chiefs Aides for crap sakes. You have Leiutenants Driving. In most Cities across the country, You have 1 Captain(Major), 3 Leiutenants and 12 Firefighter assigned to most ffront line suppression companies. Meaning you have an Officer OIC, A driver, and 1 Firefighter per shift. Not Really safe but thats where they are. You guys are ahead of the curve a lot. So While I totally agree that they should be replacing units (Engines every 8-10 years and Ladders every 12-15 years), You must acknowledge what you do have.

Oklahoma City is a Fantastic Fire Department. I sat and talked with Jon Hansen and heard the stories of this wonderful Fire Department that pulled together in 1995 and were as strong as a rock. I know USAR team members that were deployed here for that incident and told me of couragous acts that you did. What happened to the Strong Positive Fire Department that I have heard so much about??? Maybe you guys should spend less time being negative about it all and actually Educate the Public on not only what you do but what you use and need to do it. And maybe some of you should read "Essentials of Fire Department Customer Service" by Alan V. Brunacini. Its a good book. Might help you out a little. I think I even have an extra copy laying around somewhere.

Good Luck OCFD. I am pulling for you guys to get what you need to do the job.

Stay Safe.

WOW! A lot to be said about your post.

To begin, I've read Brunacini's book on the order of 15 times for promotional exams. While I am aware of his motives and agree with alot of his work, each and every time I am more aware of just how much a man can be paid for and endorsed for spouting nonsense. Which leads me to your post:

I was stating that despite our attempts at a safe operation, the job was inherently unsafe because needed apparatus(s) was/were out of service. We have plenty of blitzfires, and telesquirts and they were in operation. This was a building in the neighborhood of 20,000 sq.ft. There was huge potential. If you know so much about our great department, then you should also know that we operate aggressively and safely, and that we utilize every bit of the skills that you must surely read about.

I'm not on this post to get into a manhood match with anybody. I am stating a fact, and to address another key point from your post why do you think that we have reserve rigs out in the weather rusting? Perhaps its because we havent the resources to keep reserve apparatus at operational standards.

Yes, other departments are suffering, we are not alone in this. My gripe is that we were given monies to provide for our service and then had that money taken away only to be given to a second tier hockey team.

It never ceases to amaze me that someone such as yourself would come to a public forum and play safety police for a scene that they were never on. Perhaps our move to protect an exposure was to protect personnel inside said exposure performing search and or investigation. I've never denied this jobs inherent risk, c'mon Mac your pushing. Our subsequent alarms were dispatched with specific orders from command to check the operational status of rescue ladders because nearly the entire southside is Out of Service.

Now as to your take on our rank structure, it is just that, a rank structure. While the word lieutenant may connote to you a company officer, here it is the apparatus operator (driver) and holds similar pay grades as other metropolitan areas of similar size. This holds acrossed the board, so your argument that we have overspent the top end of the pay grade is mute.

To make things safer the chief's assistant is employed at fire alarms and multiple unit scenes as a safety officer. I think that we have utilized that resource appropriately. What is the next biggest FD in the metro? Who runs more rides and or fires per year than OCFD? Why shouldn't a chief who supervises a district with as many personnel and or apparatus/worksites as most metro cities not have an assistant?

You speak to planning for the worst and hoping for the best, and you quote firemen well. That is about all that I can say for you.

Why are "we" risking our lives....? Truth is you are not Mac, pipe down.

MGE1977
02-09-2010, 04:53 PM
On a side note, 14's truck wasn't rendered OOS at that scene. 14's truck like a vast number of Ladders in the OCFD was slated for overhaul and failed safety as well as water tests. This has been widely known for months and brought to the council's attention. They chose to neglect numbers in black and white and thankfully so far all they have to show for that neglect is a parking lot where once stood a skating rink.

But seriously Rescue Company One, keep reading your books I hear that "Alice in Wonderland" is a good read for a rainy day when not fighting any fires.

kevinpate
02-09-2010, 05:30 PM
> I would like to concede that this is probably little more than a troll for sympathy

Started out somewhat better than that, but devolved rather quickly. More's the pity.
FWIW, yeah, I agree equipment ought to work, and outdated equipment ought to be replaced.

I even agree that killing or deferring a truck replacement purchase at the same time money is being provided for arena improvements for hockey, whether it was the same bucket of dollars or not, has a small floating around it, and it ain't hotdawgs.

OKCTalker
02-09-2010, 05:41 PM
MGE - In this thread you twice implied that the City has taken OCFD-designated funds and used them for something else. You're implying an illegal comingling of funds to me. If you can back it up, then back it up.

Griping is one thing, but I have read way too much lately from OCFD people who have whined, attacked and complained about things not going their way. It takes away from my image of brave men and women who run into the burning buildings that the rest of us run out of.

If you can back up your accusation of misappropriation, then do so. Otherwise, let the hockey guys have their day in the sun.

Mikemarsh51
02-09-2010, 07:44 PM
OKCtalker- he is not accusing anyone of wrongdoing. If you are interested you can find the council meetings of the 12/15/09 and after where 4.5 million dollars was set to purchase of 4 ladder trucks. This order was canceled and an equal amount of money was loaned to SMG, a world wide, multi million dollar company that manages over 200 arenas and other facilities. This loan was discussed since it was Maps for kids use tax funds. It was discussed that the amount was going to be used for the trucks. It was decided by the council that we would only replace vehicles as needed. As it stands at this moment, 6 of our 13 ladder trucks are out of service, non usable. That is the rub.

But, things are looking up! We now have hockey and the city allowed us to purchase 1 ladder today, 240-280 days for delivery.

andy157
02-09-2010, 10:39 PM
Speaking of reserve Fire Trucks sitting out in the weather just rusting and wasting away. Didn't the City construct a Fire Apparatus and Vehicle Storage Facility? Yes they did. Is it being utilized for its intended use, which is a place to store and house Fire Apparatus out of the weather so maybe they won't rust down to nothing quite as fast? I don't know. I've heard its being used, at least in part, for something else unrelated to protecting the reserve rigs. If thats so it seems we wasted big bucks. Anyone know?

MGE1977
02-10-2010, 07:34 AM
Please allow me an addendum to my addendum:

I don't want my thread to become an us vs you debate because again, fireman and citizens are, I believe, wanting to move forward.

I don't think that firefighters have fallen from the public graces, and if by some chance we have intruded upon this site and leaned too hard on this forum it is only because we have found fulcrum in the voice which it allows.

As stated in previous threads (and this one also) by my brothers and sisters, we are trying to demonstrate how things have failed at basic levels between the fire department and management of OKC.

Earlier in this thread Humperdink stated the old three sides of the truth thing and really I think that would be a victory for us all (fireman and the voting public and city management). Is it too much to ask that those of you reading not jump to the conclusion that we (the FD) are making these things up? Just give us the benefit of the doubt, not necessarily the blessings of the righteous until of course you have made up your minds using insightful analysis and your own research.

It is hard not to sound argumentative on an internet thread, it is hard not to sound antagonistic. We are in fact trying collectively to fight the good fight, as are I'm sure most of the readership/postership. We just want things exposed, if it works in our favor great, if not, well at somepoint we will amass ample evidence to persuade.

In any case, if you could at very least temper your readership with the fact that we are just firefighters, not literary geniuses, not experts on conveying tone on the internet, we are really good people, can't we all get along?

okcsmokeandfire
02-10-2010, 08:53 AM
Speaking of reserve Fire Trucks sitting out in the weather just rusting and wasting away. Didn't the City construct a Fire Apparatus and Vehicle Storage Facility? Yes they did. Is it being utilized for its intended use, which is a place to store and house Fire Apparatus out of the weather so maybe they won't rust down to nothing quite as fast? I don't know. I've heard its being used, at least in part, for something else unrelated to protecting the reserve rigs. If thats so it seems we wasted big bucks. Anyone know?


Isnt that the same vehicle storage building that was listed on a few bond elections that was paid for 3x over a 15 year time frame and just got built
within the last 2-3 years. HMMMM

Wambo36
02-10-2010, 09:21 AM
Isnt that the same vehicle storage building that was listed on a few bond elections that was paid for 3x over a 15 year time frame and just got built
within the last 2-3 years. HMMMM

That's the one. Interesting how they work the loopholes in the laws isn't it?

rcjunkie
02-10-2010, 10:13 AM
On a side note, 14's truck wasn't rendered OOS at that scene. 14's truck like a vast number of Ladders in the OCFD was slated for overhaul and failed safety as well as water tests. This has been widely known for months and brought to the council's attention. They chose to neglect numbers in black and white and thankfully so far all they have to show for that neglect is a parking lot where once stood a skating rink.

But seriously Rescue Company One, keep reading your books I hear that "Alice in Wonderland" is a good read for a rainy day when not fighting any fires.

Why am I not surprised, someone disagrees with your views and opinions and you get rude/offensive (some things never change).
Oh well, keep doing what your paid to do and stay safe.

MGE1977
02-10-2010, 11:14 AM
Why am I not surprised, someone disagrees with your views and opinions and you get rude/offensive (some things never change).
Oh well, keep doing what your paid to do and stay safe.

Its not disagreement that is a bother, its feigned expertise in a matter of which one is ill equipped to speak.

By the by, Bass Pro called, said your trolling motor was ready.

rcjunkie
02-10-2010, 11:25 AM
Its not disagreement that is a bother, its feigned expertise in a matter of which one is ill equipped to speak.

By the by, Bass Pro called, said your trolling motor was ready.

You just can't stop can you, oh well.

P.S. Tell Bass Pro thanks, I need a new one for my pontoon.

Rescue_Company_One
02-10-2010, 11:40 AM
MGE1977,
You really dont like when someone, Who has done the same job as you by the way, Brother, Disagrees with your assesment of the situation. I am thrilled that you have read Brunacinis Books so much. I never said they were the holy gospel. However it doesnt seem like you learned anything. It is all about how the Public sees your department. I think your negative attitude on here towards anything that isnt a violin playing for your sympathy is not going to help. But hey, Its your Department. Its your Ladder Trucks. Its your Problem. I apologize for saying anything against that which you hold so dear. I do truly hope you guys are given the tools needed to keep yourself safe and get the job done. I am not going to turn this into a pissing match and I am not going to get into a "My Department is better that yours" argument. It is all the same job.

Good luck to you and OCFD.

smooth
02-10-2010, 11:49 AM
I was going to stay out of this one, however, I have some comments.

You guys need to realize, had it not been for the Bass Pro deal (I was against the way it was done, by the way), MAPS (all three and a half of them), and the public safety tax, OCFD would not have anywhere NEAR the equipment they have, nor the manpower or stations (with more stations on the way) you have now.

In fact, spending what may be a bit more on the new Farrara's is a good thing. Nice rigs.

OCFD, in my eyes gets anything they want. As a taxpayer, I GLADLY vote yes on any referendum that improves my city and my safety.:congrats::tiphat:

MGE1977
02-10-2010, 12:13 PM
MGE1977,
You really dont like when someone, Who has done the same job as you by the way, Brother, Disagrees with your assesment of the situation. I am thrilled that you have read Brunacinis Books so much. I never said they were the holy gospel. However it doesnt seem like you learned anything. It is all about how the Public sees your department. I think your negative attitude on here towards anything that isnt a violin playing for your sympathy is not going to help. But hey, Its your Department. Its your Ladder Trucks. Its your Problem. I apologize for saying anything against that which you hold so dear. I do truly hope you guys are given the tools needed to keep yourself safe and get the job done. I am not going to turn this into a pissing match and I am not going to get into a "My Department is better that yours" argument. It is all the same job.

Good luck to you and OCFD.

This has nothing to do with differing opinions. I simply don't see the connection.

What my thread is about is the disconnect in negotiations. A rift that time and again is made more glaringly apparent when monies designated for public safety, and in this case FD are rerouted for glamour.

As I have repeatedly stated, I am for foreward progress. I can see the benifit in the direction this great city has taken. I am a positive person with similar proactive ambitions for the city in which I live and serve. Why is complaining about how essentially some of my tax dollars are being spent irrelevant because of my job title?


The decision to move those funds directly impacted the outcome of the fire to which I referred. As stated prior, it is a bit of luck that it weren't a densley occupied structure, like a dormitory in 14's first in.

As to your assumptions that we were operating in an unsafe manner by committing personnel to the roof, we were not directly under said lines, and the roof was relatively safe (hence the moderate risk to save a property) and all this changed when the building started to collapse. Had we not had to commit men to the roof to protect the exposure (again under intially moderate risk), because our first in apparatus were in working order, the risk would never have made it past mild.

Smooth, again, check your facts bub OCFD only denied its support to the latest Maps initiative.

Great, and now I've broken the cardinal rule of my thread.

Back to you rescue one if you're finished reading my tactically nuanced friend, don't call me brother. I'd never tell you how to run your department, your shift, or your rig, or for that matter the mop at your firehouse because it ain't proper - certainly I'd never ask you to stop your requests to make your job safer.

Rescue_Company_One
02-10-2010, 12:45 PM
My company stood with 3 other companies in 2 inches of standing water wielding handlines from atop the Red Cross building as overhead powerlines arched and wailed expostulations at our efforts. We did this because it is in our tactical objectives, we risk a lot to save a lot, this is the job.

That is directly from your post.

I said "Brother" because where I am from it is a brotherhood of firefighters, if we agree or not. Which is why I stood shoulder to shoulder with Firefighters from all over the world at Funerals for my "Brothers" in the past. Sorry you dont feel the same way.

I am also sorry your not seeing any connections here. I am not playing the My department is better than yours game. All departments have issues. Just like every job in the known universe. I am glad no one was seriously hurt.

Also, You have every right to complain and state opinions about how your tax money is spent. You are the one who put your job title in there. And even though it was brought up I am still not going to comment on the MAPS issues.

Good luck. I am sure your comments on here will drum up the support you need to get what you want! I would love to talk more but I am off to watch a Hockey Game!

MGE1977
02-10-2010, 01:17 PM
That is directly from your post.

I said "Brother" because where I am from it is a brotherhood of firefighters, if we agree or not. Which is why I stood shoulder to shoulder with Firefighters from all over the world at Funerals for my "Brothers" in the past. Sorry you dont feel the same way.

I am also sorry your not seeing any connections here. I am not playing the My department is better than yours game. All departments have issues. Just like every job in the known universe. I am glad no one was seriously hurt.

Also, You have every right to complain and state opinions about how your tax money is spent. You are the one who put your job title in there. And even though it was brought up I am still not going to comment on the MAPS issues.

Good luck. I am sure your comments on here will drum up the support you need to get what you want! I would love to talk more but I am off to watch a Hockey Game!


Look Mac,

Unless you can divine at what point a building will collapse (without a book in your lap) I think that you would have committed the same personnel to the roof given what was known on the scene. As I said initially the risk was moderate. The power lines arced when a portion of the building collapsed. So point of fact, they did whail their expostulations at our effort, but not prior to the collapse.

My point is again, I'll slow this down for you.... We wouldn't have had to place men in what was to become harms way if our initial companies, as well as 6 of thirteen trucks in the city, had their scheduled and in effect financed maintenace as previously planned in the fiscal year.

smooth
02-10-2010, 01:19 PM
"Smooth, again, check your facts bub OCFD only denied its support to the latest Maps initiative."

I am perfectlly aware of that. Sorry you won't be glad you have citizens MORE than willing to give you what you need.

MGE1977
02-10-2010, 02:31 PM
"Smooth, again, check your facts bub OCFD only denied its support to the latest Maps initiative."

I am perfectlly aware of that. Sorry you won't be glad you have citizens MORE than willing to give you what you need.


Of course I am. I love what I do for a living, and the city I serve, and I really in my heart of hearts do not want to offend anybody to whom I am called upon to serve.

I want to argue that history proves that the FD has a very proactive policy in regards to the growth of the municipality. I want to clarify for the record that we (the FD) are all acutely aware of how important our relationship to the citizens is, practically it pays our salaries and keeps us operating on the highest levels, and a bit more intangible is the rightness in caring for those your are called upon to serve. I really don't want you to change your opinion of us. Genuinely.

I also don't want you to lever us with your support because we have voiced our opinions. This doesn't have to be that. If you disagree with my stance, or my opinion, ok, your right.

andy157
02-10-2010, 02:37 PM
Isnt that the same vehicle storage building that was listed on a few bond elections that was paid for 3x over a 15 year time frame and just got built
within the last 2-3 years. HMMMMYes indeed it is the very same one. If someone were to track back to the projects inception, then follow the financing history all the way to the completion of the project, you would ask yourself WTF.

okcsmokeandfire
02-10-2010, 04:37 PM
OK, So I have been reading these posts for months now and I think its time I put my 2 cents in. I am not trying to start a pissing match. But there are 3 sides to every story. Yours, Mine, and the Truth.

1. You Risk a lot to save a lot. Chief Alan Brunacini of Pheonix meant it different than you post it. here is what he actually said.
Chief Alan Brunacini (1985, 2002) wrote;
We will risk our lives a lot, in a highly calculated and controlled manner, to protect a savable human life;
We will risk our lives a little, in a highly calculated and controlled manner, to protect savable property.
We will not risk our lives at all to protect lives or property that is already lost.

So should you really have been on a roof in Sub Zero temps, while electrical lines(Why were utilities not controlled prior to your entering the roof?) "wailed expostulations" above your head?? Could you not have set up some Portable deck guns or Stepguns?? Do you guys have any Blitzfire monitors?? Ever hear the phrase work Smarter not Harder??? It has to do with safety as well. Why are we risking our lives to save a building??? Its Property, not a life. All the exposures should have been evac'd right away.


2. If 14s truck was rendered OOS (Which has happened to me as well at scenes and it does suck a lot), Where were the other 7 aerials on scene?? Assuming 2 Aerials to an alarm and 4 alarms, not counting the Quints you guys have. Did you only position 1 Aerial for Defense??? You act as if this has never before happened in the history of Firefighting. This happens all the time, You pull up and the hydrant is dead, You suck a rock into the pump, The supply line breaks, TRUCKS BREAK! It happens, which is why you plan for the worst and hope for the best.

3. Maintenance. Hmmmm. Seems I drive I-44 all the tie and look into a see of Reserve fire trucks sitting outside in the weather just rusting and wasting away to nothing. Did the Maintenance only become an Issue at that Fire?? The IAFF is very strong. Isnt that what they are for???? To fight for better safer working conditions???

4. Does OKC FD not have an apparatus replacement program?? If so they usually (IAFF) get pretty pissy when the City blows them off.

5. There are cities all across the Country where the fire service is being **** on. Not just here. It is a very hard job and sometimes public safety gets screwed to bring sometihng else into the city. Just like here. And while I dont agree, Look at it from a citizens point of view, not that of a firefighter. Fire Dept does not bring revenue to the city. An AHL Hockey team probably will. Would you rather go look at Firehouses all night or watch a hockey game???

Oklahoma City is well ahead of a lot of other places. How many Firefighters do you have on an Engine??? Ladder?? Rescue Company?? You still have Chiefs Aides for crap sakes. You have Leiutenants Driving. In most Cities across the country, You have 1 Captain(Major), 3 Leiutenants and 12 Firefighter assigned to most ffront line suppression companies. Meaning you have an Officer OIC, A driver, and 1 Firefighter per shift. Not Really safe but thats where they are. You guys are ahead of the curve a lot. So While I totally agree that they should be replacing units (Engines every 8-10 years and Ladders every 12-15 years), You must acknowledge what you do have.

Oklahoma City is a Fantastic Fire Department. I sat and talked with Jon Hansen and heard the stories of this wonderful Fire Department that pulled together in 1995 and were as strong as a rock. I know USAR team members that were deployed here for that incident and told me of couragous acts that you did. What happened to the Strong Positive Fire Department that I have heard so much about??? Maybe you guys should spend less time being negative about it all and actually Educate the Public on not only what you do but what you use and need to do it. And maybe some of you should read "Essentials of Fire Department Customer Service" by Alan V. Brunacini. Its a good book. Might help you out a little. I think I even have an extra copy laying around somewhere.

Good Luck OCFD. I am pulling for you guys to get what you need to do the job.

Stay Safe.

1. Brunacini Book on Customer Service, good book, not the only way, mostly a common sense approach.

2. You may be unfamiliar with how OKC dispatches a fire alarm response,
thats ok, I will be more than willing to educate you on how our fire alarm response works.

Commericial Alarm = 2 alarms response = 2 aerial trucks (may or may not work) just depends on where the fire address is.

3rd alarm = one additional aerial ladder.
4th alarm = one additional aerial ladder.

So example, 4 alarm fire = 4 aerial ladder trucks not 8.

Remember, we have 621 square miles to cover, we cant have 8 of 13 aerials at one fire. The rest of the city would be at high risk. Our aerials also respond to car wrecks as well as a multitude of other types of calls.

I wasnt working the day of the fire in question, but I do know the IC and the company officers very well that were at the fire. You would be hard pressed to find any better than those guys anywhere in the State of Oklahoma, much less the United States. I am sure that their tactics were sound and they adapted well under adverse conditions.

You are correct that sometimes things dont go according to plan at a fire scene. We adapt and overcome, that is how we do things.

You are correct, plan for the worst and hope for the best.

3. Most of the rigs that you see while driving by the Maintenance Center are parts rigs or rigs that are going to city auction. We dont have much of a reserve fleet because those rigs were in such a bad state of repair, they were auctioned off. The others of the reserve fleet are running as first line rigs, while the first line rigs are off being tested, attempting to repair or ?????

Right now we have aerial ladders that the ladders cant be used because they failed ladder testing, but are used only to haul the vast amount of equipment around that is needed at scenes.

The citizens dont know this, all that they see is a big ladder truck driving down the road and assume all is well in the fire service. We have to use those bad ladder trucks to haul equipment because we dont have anything else to trade into. We have 6 rescue ladders that work. The rest of the 13 are equipment haulers, nothing more.

Fire Station Maintenance: as of today, we have 16 fire stations in the city with various roofs leaks and problems, some that have been documented for years. That is a completely different, so I will stop here.

4. OKC FD does have any apparatus replacement program. We have been behind on that for quite sometime.

4 ladders (1990) were just refurbished and working.
7 ladders (1995) just failed ladder testing.
1 ladder (2005) is at the manufacturer being repaired.
1 ladder (2004) is at the station working.

13 ladders in the city, only 5 that work.

For the most part the Engines are in good shape and working order.

5.

All that we want is the equipment in the proper working order to do the job. Nothing more and nothing less.

About the staffing on the rigs, most of the engine companies, have 4 assigned to them, rescue ladders have 3 assigned to them, we have 1 rescue company in the city in the stockyards that responds citywide with a crew of 4 members.

About the chiefs drivers, that is one of the most stressful and time consuming jobs that is on the dept. There is nothing that is physically demanding, but
by the end of the shift you are mentally drained. They are responsible for gathering info at fire scenes, doing the staffing of the district, and lots and lots of paperwork, not a cake job I can assure you.

We are not way ahead of the curve when it comes to staffing.
In 1999, we had 999 firefighters.
In 2009, we had 938 firefighters and the number is dropping as we speak, due to retirements. They city has no plans of hiring any additional firefighters just to keep us flush with the retirements.

If they were to start taking apps today, go through the pre-employment process, background and drug screening, get hired, go through recruit academy, that is 9 months to a year, before we ever see them at the station. We are already shorthanded and getting worse by the day. I watched this happen for the last 17 years, and heard the promises that we will take care of you guys next year, and next year. Now that 17 or so years have clicked off, we realize they have no intention of getting anything done to help the fire dept.

This year of budget woes just gives them an excuse to do what they have been doing for 17 years, even through the good times we have had to fight tooth and nail just to keep up with our peers in the 10 city average, which was picked by the city. Their goal is to reduce our staffing to bare bones minimum, no days off, close fire stations, reduce service to the community.

We have a 92 % approval rating by the citizens of OKC, the national avg. is approx. 76%. The cities line of thinking is that we can keep on cutting and cutting service and funneling money to other projects, meanwhile trying to
keep the approval rating of the fire service at 80%, and hope that citizens stay in the dark in the process. You have to admit, that is a hell of a plan.

The problem that we as a fire dept have is that we have a tremendous amount of pride and will to do an excellent job for the citizens no matter what it takes. The city knows this and uses our own work ethic against us.
They knowthis because we have never let them down. Our strong and positive dept is still here and we are doing business as usual with decreased numbers.

We are just tired of getting nickel and dimed to death and we are really pissed about it.

We are trying to educate the public on what we need to do our job and do it somewhat safely.

Thanks for the tip on the Brunacini Book.

I hope some of this info answers some of your questions.

BE SAFE

Mikemarsh51
02-10-2010, 04:58 PM
Rescue Company one, First, where do you work? Second, put yourself in his shoes, someone who doesnt work on your dept, you don't know is somewhat picking apart your dept and your SOP's. I see why he is a little put out with you.

Smooth, I ride one of the new Ferrara's and it is awesome!

MGE1977 Keep your chin up!

Junkie, Was up?

Rescue_Company_One
02-10-2010, 06:34 PM
A couple of things before I go back to watching sports for the night.

1. okcsmokeandfire, Thanks for the info. I appreciate you giving it to me and not being rude about it. That is a whole lot different than the other guy was saying. I have always thought that you guys were getting screwed I just wasnt aware how much. Is that why there are quints stationed with Ladders throughout the city?? I am sure you guys have gone to the media but getting them to do anything is not easy at all. They love the city and anyone againts what the council and mayor say is wrong and ignored.

2. Mikemarsh51, I understand why he is put out. The way to solve that is to NOT come on to a public forum and bitch about stuff. Sometimes someone elses opinion is different than your own. If you dont like it dont put stuff where it will be commented on.

And third, I wanted to share this with you all. I really pray for your sake that MGE is not anywhere near your Public Information Office Ever. Here is the message he sent me. Word for Word.


Listen you jackass, you wanna go on a public forum and display distaste for what I have written, go right ahead - as a citizen.

You want to throw around "brotherhood" all the while trashing your brothers. If you got something against the OCFD fine, whatever, lots do, but this aint the Bravestonline so **** off.


Really man, take your valium and relax. Not everyone agreees with you. Dont you see why??? I cant understand why some citizens are against you. Is it your wonderful demeanor when they disagree with you?? There are ways to put stuff and ways not to. Thanks for the permission to post on a public forum though. Much appreciated. Good Luck.

MGE1977
02-10-2010, 06:36 PM
I said it and again, poor form man. Seriously.

MGE1977
02-10-2010, 07:45 PM
Before we get another private message from Rescue One, let me fess up, I sent him another. Big woop-t-doop.

Now, why is it that in the last post from you Rescue, you give another fireman the thumbs up and a pat on the back, agreeing with him as the very words that he types are edyfying my initial opening to this thread?

To begin, never once have I denied anybody the right to disagree with my point, as stated in several posts on this thread. It is welcome, hence okctalk
has readership and postership. C'mon.

You jumped down my neck with a criticism of a fire that you never made it to, in whose tactics I'm not sure you could fully grasp, not because you are not intelligent, but because you were not there.

I'm not going to say that I've never used hyperbole to emphasize a fire scene, and or a fish story, but in this case we were truly outmatched at the start by a huge volume of fire and scraping to gain ground because first line apparatus was inoperable.

This FD of which I am a proud member excels in every capacity be it fire, rescue, or ems, we don't dissapoint. Our command is exceptional, as is our leadership second to none.

I take issue with your aim at our department, not your opinion. And again, it is glaringly obvious that you are unaware of the honor that firemen share in not taking station matters and airing them to the public.

My family of firefighters and those who I would call brothers/sisters and who would call me likewise have skins thick enough not to take bring a scuff with others into public light.

Any citizen has the right to their opinion, expressed as such, and should they want to tussle, I'll share mine with them and we can debate until the cows come home. Again this is not about a misalignment of opinion.

I really cannot see that A.) I am negative, nor B.) unwilling to accept others differences of opinion, but really can I not fire back? Where is the sport in a discussion forum where someone can't fire back?

rcjunkie
02-10-2010, 09:05 PM
[QUOTE=Mikemarsh51;299040]Rescue Company one, First, where do you work? Second, put yourself in his shoes, someone who doesn't work on your dept, you don't know is somewhat picking apart your dept and your SOP's. I see why he is a little put out with you.

Smooth, I ride one of the new Ferrara's and it is awesome!

MGE1977 Keep your chin up!

Junkie, Was up?

Good evening Mikemarsh51, just keeping myself entertained, I really enjoy this thread, I don't always agree with the posting's but it's good to read views/comments from both sides.

Take care, stay warm and be safe.

Mikemarsh51
02-10-2010, 09:59 PM
Rescue Company One, Where do you work? My guess is Edmond.

LakeEffect
02-11-2010, 07:07 AM
I'm curious why you write all of this about Ladder 14 without describing the rest of the scene.

I would assume that Ladders 1, 6, 7, and 14 were called for a four alarm fire at this point. Ladder 1 would have been first in since it was only a few blocks away. My guesses on 6 and 7 may be off - maybe 18 or 25 would have been called.

Also, isn't Engine 51 a quint? Was it working this fire as well? I know quints don't have the ladder height as our rescue ladders, but they can have master streams... However, I will note that I don't recall seeing a master on Engine 15 last I saw, so maybe those are just engines with ladders, in which case I'm wrong about 51 being able to help.

I also wonder why you haven't mentioned that City Council accepted a bid for at least one new ladder, with options for more, on Tuesday. Isn't that something to be at least partially thankful for?

andy157
02-11-2010, 07:27 AM
I'm curious why you write all of this about Ladder 14 without describing the rest of the scene.

I would assume that Ladders 1, 6, 7, and 14 were called for a four alarm fire at this point. Ladder 1 would have been first in since it was only a few blocks away. My guesses on 6 and 7 may be off - maybe 18 or 25 would have been called.

Also, isn't Engine 51 a quint? Was it working this fire as well? I know quints don't have the ladder height as our rescue ladders, but they can have master streams... However, I will note that I don't recall seeing a master on Engine 15 last I saw, so maybe those are just engines with ladders, in which case I'm wrong about 51 being able to help.

I also wonder why you haven't mentioned that City Council accepted a bid for at least one new ladder, with options for more, on Tuesday. Isn't that something to be at least partially thankful for?I agree, it is something to be thankful for. Do you happen to know the funding source for the purchase? I missed the agenda. I'm just curious.

FFLady
02-11-2010, 08:54 AM
Hi guys - don't have much to add to this thread, but I am the wife of a retired FF. I had him read this thread and though he points out everyone's good points, he states that he is sooooo glad to be out of the "political" aspect of doing his job....However, we will always hope it works out for OKC's Finest!!!

Plan B, Baby!!!!! :tiphat:

okcsmokeandfire
02-11-2010, 09:06 AM
I'm curious why you write all of this about Ladder 14 without describing the rest of the scene.

I would assume that Ladders 1, 6, 7, and 14 were called for a four alarm fire at this point. Ladder 1 would have been first in since it was only a few blocks away. My guesses on 6 and 7 may be off - maybe 18 or 25 would have been called.

Also, isn't Engine 51 a quint? Was it working this fire as well? I know quints don't have the ladder height as our rescue ladders, but they can have master streams... However, I will note that I don't recall seeing a master on Engine 15 last I saw, so maybe those are just engines with ladders, in which case I'm wrong about 51 being able to help.

I also wonder why you haven't mentioned that City Council accepted a bid for at least one new ladder, with options for more, on Tuesday. Isn't that something to be at least partially thankful for?

I dont know which ladders were dispatched to this fire.
I havent pulled up the incident report to look yet, but here is the status of the rigs that you have mentioned.

Ladder 1 is in working order, it was recently refurbished, 1990 model

Ladder 6 is off at the rig manufacturer being repaired. They are in some sort of loaner equipment, an old squad, just carries tools and men to the scene.

Ladder 7 is in working order, it was recently refurbished, 1990 model

Ladders 14, 18 and 25, the aerial ladders do not work, they failed the testing, the ladder portion of the rigs are not usable, the rigs just haul manpower and equipment, nothing more. They might as well be school buses.
Those are 3 of the 7 in the city that have failed miserably and are 15 years old. All of these are 1995 models.

One thing that you must take into account with any fire alarm response is that the 1st in rigs may already be at another fire scene, or car wreck, or medical call, or being repaired, or whatever. If you are on a medical call or car wreck or any other scene for that matter, you dont just drop what you are doing when a fire alarm comes in. You have a duty to act at the scene that you are currently at, stabilize it, complete it and get ready for the next call.

About the quint, or telebooms as we call them, those ladders on top of those are not designed nor intended for rescue purposes. They are however intended on being elevated master streams, but they are limited to a height of about 45-50' depending on the model.

We have several of those scattered throughout the city. E-51 teleboom is a 1990 model that has been refurbished as well. The main design for telebooms are limited access apartment complexes and or housing additions, with narrow streets and tight corners. They do provide master streams at the fire scene.

The problem that you encounter with them is the lack of reach, that you would otherwise get from an aerial ladder. To use a teleboom effectively, you have to get fairly close to a building to take advantage of the ladder/nozzle height over the fire, without being in a collapse zone. Most of the time, you cannot get close enough to the structure on fire to do this,
hence your 45-50' ladder height proves to be worthless at this time, because you need an aerial ladder that is 100-135' in ladder height to do the job effectively.

This why aerial ladders are more effective on those type of fires where you have to spot your rig at a safe distance, out of the collapse, somewhat out of the heat so you dont crack all of the window glass and burn the paint off of the rig, and most of all so your aerial ladder does not become heated and fail.

We are very thankful, for the new aerial ladder that was approved by Council last Tuesday. Thank you very much, it will be very appreciated.

I was thinking that is took somewhere in vicinity of 8-9 months to get the new rig once it is ordered. Thanks again.

MGE1977
02-11-2010, 10:44 AM
I'm curious why you write all of this about Ladder 14 without describing the rest of the scene.

I would assume that Ladders 1, 6, 7, and 14 were called for a four alarm fire at this point. Ladder 1 would have been first in since it was only a few blocks away. My guesses on 6 and 7 may be off - maybe 18 or 25 would have been called.

Also, isn't Engine 51 a quint? Was it working this fire as well? I know quints don't have the ladder height as our rescue ladders, but they can have master streams... However, I will note that I don't recall seeing a master on Engine 15 last I saw, so maybe those are just engines with ladders, in which case I'm wrong about 51 being able to help.

I also wonder why you haven't mentioned that City Council accepted a bid for at least one new ladder, with options for more, on Tuesday. Isn't that something to be at least partially thankful for?

I can appreciate your comment on my lack of clarity. As previously mentioned 6's was OOS. When 14's was shown to be inoperable the Chief requested that when he pulled the hook on the next alarm all incoming Ladders were to be screened regarding operation prior to dispatch, because he new of the shortcomings.

One's areial was up on what is called the A/D corner, being the front corner and right side of the structure, 51's boom was placed for exposure protection on the A/B corner or the front left. 14's was to swing around to the B/C corner or left rear provide more exposure control and obviously could not. That is when we were committed to the roof. To clarify further, when we were committed, the scene was of moderate risk, during the partial collapse of the fire building, we were most exposed. No regrets, we put a good stop on it.

As to the recent passage of council's plan to fund more trucks, it is very promising and something to which I was not privy. I would only like to recognize that these plans were already previously delineated by council with means to finance already established, and then changed. For hockey. Busch league hockey. Perhaps my gripe is for nothing, again this is promising news, but....

LakeEffect
02-11-2010, 09:18 PM
The ladder approved Tuesday is being paid for with Maps for Kids Use Tax. More ladders are unfunded, which is why there is only an option to purchase more.

Thanks for the scene analysis MGE. Provides good background.

RE: Quints. I remembered that OKC's telebooms aren't true quints, so I understand why they aren't called that in OKC. I was wondering why the Fire Station Location Study said "0" for quints... I suppose the main missing component in OKC is the rescue equipment that's not on the telebooms.

andy157
04-20-2010, 06:25 AM
http://www.okc.gov/finance_tab/five_yr_forecast/five%20year%20forecast%202011-2015.pdf

Vehicle Replacement
Total Capital Costs: $1,500,000+ Annual Costs: $750,000+
The City and Schools Use Tax has been used to pay for Fire fleet replacement over the last two
years. It is expected that this source will be sufficient to pay for fleet replacement through FY
2012. After FY 2012, however, a new funding source will need to be identified to pay for the
$3-4 million per year in fleet replacement needs of the department.

Whats wrong with this picture? Anyone know?

Wambo36
04-21-2010, 11:52 AM
http://www.okc.gov/finance_tab/five_yr_forecast/five%20year%20forecast%202011-2015.pdf

Vehicle Replacement
Total Capital Costs: $1,500,000+ Annual Costs: $750,000+
The City and Schools Use Tax has been used to pay for Fire fleet replacement over the last two
years. It is expected that this source will be sufficient to pay for fleet replacement through FY
2012. After FY 2012, however, a new funding source will need to be identified to pay for the
$3-4 million per year in fleet replacement needs of the department.

Whats wrong with this picture? Anyone know?

I think you're going to have to explain it Andy.

stratosphere
04-21-2010, 11:59 AM
for some reason i opened this thread hoping to see pictures of fire trucks.

JIMBO
04-21-2010, 05:30 PM
I thought the .75% Public Safety Sales Tax we passed a few years ago was supposed to
pay for this stuff.

LakeEffect
04-21-2010, 10:01 PM
I think you're going to have to explain it Andy.

Yeah, I'm confused... seriously, not being sarcastic/snarky.

Larry OKC
04-21-2010, 10:55 PM
I thought the .75% Public Safety Sales Tax we passed a few years ago was supposed to
pay for this stuff.

It does, but apparently it is not a sufficient revenue stream to cover the needs...sort of like the Education Lottery, it is "supplemental" revenue.

Larry OKC
04-21-2010, 11:04 PM
http://www.okc.gov/finance_tab/five_yr_forecast/five%20year%20forecast%202011-2015.pdf

Vehicle Replacement
Total Capital Costs: $1,500,000+ Annual Costs: $750,000+
The City and Schools Use Tax has been used to pay for Fire fleet replacement over the last two
years. It is expected that this source will be sufficient to pay for fleet replacement through FY
2012. After FY 2012, however, a new funding source will need to be identified to pay for the
$3-4 million per year in fleet replacement needs of the department.

Whats wrong with this picture? Anyone know?

Looks like this info is from page 84 (88 of the 118 pg pdf file) that he linked.
I am in agreement with others, what are you asking?

Mikemarsh51
04-21-2010, 11:31 PM
Re: Council resolution to accept 5% paycut
An update, currently as of today the city has lowered the amount that was going to be cut from the fire department budget from $9,000,000.00 to 2,850,000.00. This is better news, we still are hoping that sales tax reciepts continue to rise.

andy157
04-22-2010, 01:35 PM
I thought the .75% Public Safety Sales Tax we passed a few years ago was supposed to
pay for this stuff.DING DING DING, we have a winner!!!

andy157
04-22-2010, 01:36 PM
Yeah, I'm confused... seriously, not being sarcastic/snarky.See post #45

andy157
04-22-2010, 01:43 PM
It does, but apparently it is not a sufficient revenue stream to cover the needs...sort of like the Education Lottery, it is "supplemental" revenue.Larry I will have to respectfully disagree, it is sufficient. In fact it is more than sufficient. To start with for example, the City for the past two years has skimmed $961,777. off the top to fund 15 ghost employee positions.

andy157
04-22-2010, 01:48 PM
It does, but apparently it is not a sufficient revenue stream to cover the needs...sort of like the Education Lottery, it is "supplemental" revenue.It is not supplemental revenue. OKC Fire rig and viehicle replacement is a "Listed Project" (as in a mandated expenditure) of the dedicated and earmarked tax.

Larry OKC
04-23-2010, 02:23 AM
It is not supplemental revenue. OKC Fire rig and viehicle replacement is a "Listed Project" (as in a mandated expenditure) of the dedicated and earmarked tax.

Sorry, probably not the correct term. By supplemental, I was talking about in excess to the funds that PS gets from the general revenue fund. From what I understand, the dedicated tax doesn't have a provision in it saying they can't cut funding from the general fund (unlike the Lottery).


Larry I will have to respectfully disagree, it is sufficient. In fact it is more than sufficient. To start with for example, the City for the past two years has skimmed $961,777. off the top to fund 15 ghost employee positions.

Also, it was my understanding from some of the PS folks posting here that the 3/4 tax wasn't sufficient and needed to be raised to a full cent? So that's where that part of my comment came from.

LakeEffect
04-23-2010, 07:09 AM
Also, it was my understanding from some of the PS folks posting here that the 3/4 tax wasn't sufficient and needed to be raised to a full cent? So that's where that part of my comment came from.

Well, if the funds are being used in other places via fund transfers, then could the City still claim insufficient income overall? The City does not collect enough tax to support everything people want it to do...

andy157
04-23-2010, 10:03 PM
Well, if the funds are being used in other places via fund transfers, then could the City still claim insufficient income overall? The City does not collect enough tax to support everything people want it to do...Regarding Fire Department issues only. The 3/4 cent P.S. sales tax does collect enough to fund the eight (8) priorities it was intended, and mandated to fund. Five(5) new stations, 33, 34, 35, 36, 37, all of which were started, have been completed, and have been paid for.

The commenced with and continuing salaries of A MINIMUM, ADDITIONAL two hundred (200) firefighters to staff the five (5) new stations, not the funding for 15 ghost employees to give the General Fund relief.

The funding to purchase/replace, Fire rigs/vihicles on an ongoing basis, not the MAPS 4 KIDS use tax that was diverted to the hockey team.

The funding to purchase new/repair and maintain Firefighting tools and equipment on an ongoing basis.

Larry OKC
04-24-2010, 01:24 AM
Guess I was also under the impression that the 3/4 tax wasn't sufficient since the City has been using the MAPS for Kids Use Tax (claimed by the Mayor/City during the MAPS 3 campaign to be $60M to F/P when that was the total amount of the Use Tax, the PS portion was much less than that (don't have the link handy but IIRC, it was about $15M).

andy157
04-24-2010, 01:53 AM
Guess I was also under the impression that the 3/4 tax wasn't sufficient since the City has been using the MAPS for Kids Use Tax (claimed by the Mayor/City during the MAPS 3 campaign to be $60M to F/P when that was the total amount of the Use Tax, the PS portion was much less than that (don't have the link handy but IIRC, it was about $15M).The $60M claim was..was..whats the word I'm looking for.. lie, thats it, the $60M claim was a lie. If I remember they also claimed the M4K use tax had been used for the past 10 years..lie, try 3

Slivermoon
04-24-2010, 09:54 AM
Just a footnote on the issue of the transfer of City/Schools Use Tax funds for Cox Center improvements.

First, a correction. The funds are not being "given" to SMG, the contracted manager of the Cox and Ford Center. If you look at the agenda items, this was an internal loan between City and City trust funds.

Second, it seems no one has observed this is not a handout. The Council action limits the transfer to $3.7 million and all funds from the City/Schools Use tax for purposes of improvements to the Cox Center are to be repaid with interest.

Not trying to start anything. Just look it up on the City website under Records.

rcjunkie
04-24-2010, 10:46 AM
Just a footnote on the issue of the transfer of City/Schools Use Tax funds for Cox Center improvements.

First, a correction. The funds are not being "given" to SMG, the contracted manager of the Cox and Ford Center. If you look at the agenda items, this was an internal loan between City and City trust funds.

Second, it seems no one has observed this is not a handout. The Council action limits the transfer to $3.7 million and all funds from the City/Schools Use tax for purposes of improvements to the Cox Center are to be repaid with interest.

Not trying to start anything. Just look it up on the City website under Records.

They don't want or agree with facts, it takes away validity to any argument they may have.

andy157
04-24-2010, 12:22 PM
Just a footnote on the issue of the transfer of City/Schools Use Tax funds for Cox Center improvements.

First, a correction. The funds are not being "given" to SMG, the contracted manager of the Cox and Ford Center. If you look at the agenda items, this was an internal loan between City and City trust funds.

Second, it seems no one has observed this is not a handout. The Council action limits the transfer to $3.7 million and all funds from the City/Schools Use tax for purposes of improvements to the Cox Center are to be repaid with interest.

Not trying to start anything. Just look it up on the City website under Records.I said the money was diverted.

andy157
04-24-2010, 12:29 PM
They don't want or agree with facts, it takes away validity to any argument they may have.Right... And theres no Air Force Base in OKC. All you want to do is dismiss the facts. Read it again...slowly... the funds were diverted

rcjunkie
04-24-2010, 02:00 PM
Right... And theres no Air Force Base in OKC. All you want to do is dismiss the facts. Read it again...slowly... the funds were diverted

But will be returned---you seem to forget that fact.

Mikemarsh51
04-24-2010, 02:51 PM
Why is little old OKC loaning a Multi billion dollar company money?

Larry OKC
04-24-2010, 03:39 PM
Just a footnote on the issue of the transfer of City/Schools Use Tax funds for Cox Center improvements.

First, a correction. The funds are not being "given" to SMG, the contracted manager of the Cox and Ford Center. If you look at the agenda items, this was an internal loan between City and City trust funds.

Second, it seems no one has observed this is not a handout. The Council action limits the transfer to $3.7 million and all funds from the City/Schools Use tax for purposes of improvements to the Cox Center are to be repaid with interest.

Not trying to start anything. Just look it up on the City website under Records.

That is my understanding of it as well. That it is an internal loan within the City entities and SMG is just the conduit (as the operator of the City owned Cox Center). The City has so many different funds (30+, many dedicated) that it can pull this elaborate shell game. All perfectly legal.

It is also true that the money will be paid back with interest and at a relatively rapid rate. Did the math once and presuming sellouts on the hockey games the seat tax will pay back the loan in about 4 years (IIRC). My only thought on it is, the money that was loaned had already been earmarked for public safety and IIRC for the purchase of a fire truck.

This is one of the huge issues I had with MAPS 3 funding is that the City's intent can be changed at any time and the money that was earmarked for the MAPS 3 projects (NONE of which are listed in the Ballot/Ordinance) can be diverted to other uses quite easily (see Bass Pro deal). All perfectly legal but not necessarily right (IMO). Unless there is another fund source, that fire truck is going to have to wait for 4 years or so.