When at the same time the city is looking at 12 percent cuts starting in the next fiscal year and city management is warning that city services will be dramatically cut?

No. There probably isn't a scenario where I would be supportive of using a temporary tax for personnel. Additionally, if budget cuts are coming, why would we want to add personnel?

There was quite a debate over this at today's council meeting. Police are fire are being spared cuts in personel that are hitting other departments. Mayor Mick Cornett is urging the council to keep a promise he made during the MAPS 3 campaign to spend part of the use tax to pay for additional hires to police and firefighters - a promise the council said was without their consent and without any council action.
Another question - was the mayor right or wrong to make a promise without having it go through council consideration first?

Oh, you're talking about the use tax. Hmmm. Not quite sure my thoughts on that given the info in your last post. I need to think about it before I spout off an opinion.

I wish someone could show where the missing 15 additional Firefighters are. The City, for the last 3 fiscal years has claimed to have hired 15 "overage positions" to cover paramedic training. Remember, thats 15 over and above the normal 951 budgeted positions. The FY/09-10 budget says they have them, the Fire Sales Tax budget has money encumbered to pay them, yet their no where to be found. It's like they're ghost or something, kind of spooky. Padding the budget to hire Firefighters that don't get hired...no wonder Public Safety is so expensive.

Andy, is there any point at which police and fire unions should consider or accept cuts to their ranks? Or should they be spared any reduction in spending, regardless of how much must then be cut from other city services? I'm not advocating either way - but these are questions I've yet to hear anyone ask and in light of what's going on in Tulsa and what was said at council today, I've got to wonder...

Andy, is there any point at which police and fire unions should consider or accept cuts to their ranks? Or should they be spared any reduction in spending, regardless of how much must then be cut from other city services? I'm not advocating either way - but these are questions I've yet to hear anyone ask and in light of what's going on in Tulsa and what was said at council today, I've got to wonder...Lots of what ifs, and lots of ways to address the problems. Ranks can mean different things, for example, ranks can mean actual people, or ranks can be a pay grade. The City needs to put it on the table. However, I believe the 3/4 cent Public Safety Sales Tax requirments have to play in here somewhere.

Andy, is there any point at which police and fire unions should consider or accept cuts to their ranks? Or should they be spared any reduction in spending, regardless of how much must then be cut from other city services? I'm not advocating either way - but these are questions I've yet to hear anyone ask and in light of what's going on in Tulsa and what was said at council today, I've got to wonder...Sorry, but to answere your question. I think, yes they will. However, they will be highly skeptical due to the fact that the last time they accepted cuts, they got it stuck up their butts. Remember the Rescue Squads?

MAPS3 money should be just for what it was voted for...

MAPS3 money should be just for what it was voted for...

City policy requires all MAPS funds to be dedicated to the projects voted for by the constituents. In fact, it may actually be an ordinance and not just policy.

The use tax should go towards more community improvement. I have no problem with cutting the police's budget or even halving it but I've made those views quite clear in the past. The bottom line though is that Mayor Mick can say whatever he wants but there is still a political process in this city and he is at the bottom of the totem pole. He needs to go through City Council and consult with the City Manager on issues such as this.

What amazes me is that city was selling the voters on the necessity for going on a spending spree last month and today they are having to cut spending.

It is kind of like borrowing money to buy an expensive car stereo and custom wheels when you barely make enough money to make the payments on the car.

I am glad I am not a resident of Oklahoma City anymore. Get ready for 10-15 minute response times on police and fire. Report calls will probably take days for an officer to respond instead of hours. Not to mention, Oklahoma City will probably lose the better police and fire fighters to suburban and regional cities.

Well, guess this answers my question way back when the Mayor, et al had their press conference disputing the NTM's claims that no MAPS 3 money was going towards public safety funding. When they proposed using the Use Tax, I asked if this had gone through Council or if it was just another potential empty campaign promise. Where was the Council when this was proposed? Did the Council members object (other than Walters) back then? Or did they lay low on the issue hoping no one would notice just so they could get MAPS 3 passed? Since there was nothing binding them to the Use Tax (other than Cornett's word), they can easily change the intent (just like they can change the intent of the MAPS 3 funds projects themselves). Now I am not in favor of using a temporary tax because when the tax goes away, the positions will probably go away too. Reportedly, they were going to use an unspecified portion of it and only for the 1st 2 years of the 7.75 year MAPS 3 tax. it was my understanding of what was said by the parties involved (Mayor, Marrs & Prater) that the use tax wasn't even going to result in hiring of additional fire/police put just keep them from having to lay anyone off. Regardless, the Mayor needs to keep his word on this.

Side note, does anyone know the day/time when this Council meeting is replayed on Cox? Or if there is an online link to the meeting? Thanks in advance

The video is on the top right side.

SIRE WebCenter - Published Meeting Viewer (http://www.okc.gov/AgendaPub/pubmtgframe.aspx?meetid=804&doctype=AGENDA)

See how it all worked?
MAPS3 was a result built on lies and half truths.
If they lied about this what else are they lying about?

I am glad I am not a resident of Oklahoma City anymore. Get ready for 10-15 minute response times on police and fire. Report calls will probably take days for an officer to respond instead of hours. Not to mention, Oklahoma City will probably lose the better police and fire fighters to suburban and regional cities.

If there are burbs with better levels of safety employees and such, maybe its time to look at de-annexing a lot of excess area they don't need. Turn areas over to new townships or to other area cities that can better serve.

See how it all worked?
MAPS3 was a result built on lies and half truths.
If they lied about this what else are they lying about?

Liar.

Liar.

lol
it hurts..
I want OKC to be a better place, but its not likely to when liars are in power.

If there are burbs with better levels of safety employees and such, maybe its time to look at de-annexing a lot of excess area they don't need. Turn areas over to new townships or to other area cities that can better serve.

Even though I don't agree with the Police and Fire Unions stance on MAPS3, I can say without a doubt that the City of OKC has the best and most dedicated Firefighters and Police Officers in the State.

rc, perhaps, but the folks down in Norman ain't exactly keystone cops or fireslugs. They be pretty damn decent at what they do as well.

Can't much speak toother surrounding communities as I've met very very few fire and police from there.


Back to the Use tax. It is a companion to the M3 sales tax, not specifically a part of M3 collections. As such, it can be applied to any ol' thing council wishes without doing a penny of damage or delay to M3 projects. No different than prior use tax that went along with the prior MAPs sales taxes.

A promise by the mayor, that doesn't have the council on board when made, is only a mere collection of words. Hopefully, something will be resolved, but I doubt many will be happy, irrespective of the final outcome. To some it will be way too much, in light of the cuts others face. To others, it will be way to little, in light of prior cancellation of new equipment trucks for fire, current staff levels for F and P, time tog et ins ervice, issues re canceling inspections, etc., etc., etc.

Seems there is a long path to walk to find meaningful compromise between city fathers and F & P, with a few boulders, cougars, falling limbs and an occasional snake strewn about.

As to Steve's Q, when close to, or over 50% of a city's budget is going to F & P, per the claims made anyhow, to cut 12% overall from only 1/2 the budget, or less, seems near impossible to make it work, unless of course, the non F & P side is so overly flush it should of been cut long ago. Don't recall anyone saying that, and given most govt. staffing, would find it difficult to imagine.

What amazes me is that city was selling the voters on the necessity for going on a spending spree last month and today they are having to cut spending.
It is kind of like borrowing money to buy an expensive car stereo and custom wheels when you barely make enough money to make the payments on the car.

I am glad I am not a resident of Oklahoma City anymore. Get ready for 10-15 minute response times on police and fire. Report calls will probably take days for an officer to respond instead of hours. Not to mention, Oklahoma City will probably lose the better police and fire fighters to suburban and regional cities.

What amazes me is that your bringing this up to "stir the pot". Several months ago, long before the election, everyone knew, it was in was in the papers and on local news that the City would soon be in a down budget cycle and that cuts could be a possibility.

What amazes me is that your bringing this up to "stir the pot". Several months ago, long before the election, everyone knew, it was in was in the papers and on local news that the City would soon be in a down budget cycle and that cuts could be a possibility.

Not to mention that Maps 3 is a long tax, and the economy will (most likely) recover well in that time and make up for the current problems...

See how it all worked?
MAPS3 was a result built on lies and half truths.
If they lied about this what else are they lying about?

I'm being serious gmwise, are you just trying to create controversy or are you really that clueless re: MAPS3 and Maps3 use tax.

Absolutely not. MAPS 3 is about growth. More police and firefighters does not have anywhere close to as much an impact as these sorts of capital improvements. Let MAPS 3 bring growth and bring more tax revenue. That's what we voted for.

If the situation regarding police and fire really does become dire, we simply need to bite the bullet and vote in another small tax hike to address those needs. In the meantime, those departments need to focus on smarter and more efficient deployment of manpower and trying to do the best they can with less just like every other business and public entity (other than the federal government) is having to do.

Absolutely not. MAPS 3 is about growth. More police and firefighters does not have anywhere close to as much an impact as these sorts of capital improvements. Let MAPS 3 bring growth and bring more tax revenue. That's what we voted for.

If the situation regarding police and fire really does become dire, we simply need to bite the bullet and vote in another small tax hike to address those needs. In the meantime, those departments need to focus on smarter and more efficient deployment of manpower and trying to do the best they can with less just like every other business and public entity (other than the federal government) is having to do.

To reduced jail inmates we can just shoot them...cost of bullets..no meals and no multi floor heating costs...lol

Oneforone, you are brilliant.

The point I tried to make all along was needs before wants. We screamed that on here. Garry Marrs said yesterday that "the employees need to understand, we may never get back to where we were five years ago". What he needs to understand is that the citizens who right now are waiting 15 minutes or better for a response voted to add three more fire station on the 2007 G.O. bond issue.

According to the Fire Chief station 26 at 119th and Rockwell will be built in 6 years. Station 29 at 59th and Richland will be built in 8 years and station 38 at 149th and Douglas/Air Depot in 12 years. What do you think the growth and expansion of our city will look like in 12 years?

Our Fire Chiefs from all over our state work together to standardize our services, there are no bad paid departments around here. They all work together to provide the best services to the public.

To reduced jail inmates we can just shoot them...cost of bullets..no meals and no multi floor heating costs...lol

Prisoners at the jail are a county issue. MAPS doesn't even get close to entering the equation there. MAPS is a municipal issue.

The video is on the top right side.

SIRE WebCenter - Published Meeting Viewer (http://www.okc.gov/AgendaPub/pubmtgframe.aspx?meetid=804&doctype=AGENDA)
Thanks for the link, Nick. Since it may become an interesting part of the history of MAPS 3, I've ripped that part of the audio from council meeting which relates to a presentation dealing with projections for fiscal year 2011, which is the place that the relevant discussion/debate occurred.

Basically, it takes place during the last 36 minutes of the meeting. Speakers you will hear include Craig Freeman, City Budget Director, Jim Couch, City Manager; Mayor Cornett; Council Members Pete White, Gary Marrs, Patrick Ryan, Larry McAtee, Brian Walters, and Sam Bowman. The clip begins at the point that Craig Freeman starts a discussion of FY 2011 projections.

Here is the link (http://sites.google.com/site/dougdawgzmusic/home/council_1_5_2009_FY2011discussion.mp3?attredirects =0&d=1) to the 8.18 MB MP3 file, for any that wants it.

Prisoners at the jail are a county issue. MAPS doesn't even get close to entering the equation there. MAPS is a municipal issue.

Ok then we can save money to build the new jail.

Ok then we can save money to build the new jail.

One not so tiny flaw in your plan gmwise. What if Papa John forbid, you get wrongly snagged and dropped in Ok Co. version of emerald city an hour or so before they decide do some herd thinning?

Someone here might miss you.

Don't have a clue who mind you, but maybe someone would
:poke:

Ok then we can save money to build the new jail.

Who is "we" and who is building the jail?

one not so tiny flaw in your plan gmwise. What if papa john forbid, you get wrongly snagged and dropped in ok co. Version of emerald city an hour or so before they decide do some herd thinning?

Someone here might miss you.

Don't have a clue who mind you, but maybe someone would
:poke:

lol

Who is "we" and who is building the jail?

i was being sarcastic.

Not to mention that Maps 3 is a long tax, and the economy will (most likely) recover well in that time and make up for the current problems...

Historically you are correct and we can hope that in at least this instance, history repeats itself. We have been thru recessions etc with other long term MAPS taxes and with MAPS for Kids, reportedly they came within $2M of the overall revenue projections. Did the math on it at one time and it was something like less than half a percent! Or some other insanely close amount. I would be absolutely thrilled if they could get that close with cost projections. Historically, they average 8% over budget. MAPS was 47.75% over budget. Will just have to wait and see how close they get with MAPS 3.

Even given the double digit decline with current revenue as the starting point, it should still generate right at the projected $100M/year over the 7.75 year life of the tax.

Tulsa World: Chief: Budget plans would 'almost' take Tulsa Fire Department 'apart' (http://www.tulsaworld.com/news/article.aspx?subjectid=11&articleid=20100107_11_0_FireCh428187)

NO!! They did not support MAPS 3.

NO!! They did not support MAPS 3.

Tulsa?

Gen70, so your saying that since we didnt support it, we should receive no benefit from it? Even though we are required by administration to shop in the city limits of OKC while on duty. So I voted no, yet I spend my tax dollars here instead of Moore, punish me? Good thing I live and shop in ward 5, where it was defeated, incidently the margin of victory was not that big, are you going to punish everyone that voted no?

Mikemarsh

The current MAPs related use tax, and the future MAPs3 related use tax, should be used by the elected city leadership for any lawful purpose. I've no reason to suspect that will not be the case.

It is true that some won't always like how the limited use tax pie is sliced, (and I am one of those, i.e., the canceling planned trucks to help cover hockey improvements) but someone has to slice it all the same.

As for the city requiring its on duty FD folks and equipment to remain in the service area ... seems reasonable. I know if I need fire and police here in Norman, I don't want my local P&S coming to me from a food run at a Noble grocer or from having lunch at Kendall's down in Noble. Then again, quite by happy accident I find myself well placed between multiple grocers and fire stations, and reasonable proximity to the policia as well, so I try and not worry much.

As for the margin of victory being "not that big", From where I sit, the tally doesn't seem to add up that way. To each their own I suppose.

Luck with the next budget rounds. These things are getting tougher and tougher all over the place.

When at the same time the city is looking at 12 percent cuts starting in the next fiscal year and city management is warning that city services will be dramatically cut?


This is what our City leaders promised them if MAPS 3 passed.

Now, we should do what we promised!

I know that the police and fire unions campaigned against this and they made claims that the City couldn't be trusted on this promise!

I know several police and fire people who said that they went ahead and voted for MAPS because they didn't see what they had to gain in killing it!

See how it all worked?
MAPS3 was a result built on lies and half truths.
If they lied about this what else are they lying about?

:omg: Let's give this thing time. The City made promises and should keep them (use tax would be used for police & fire).

Mr. gmwise, just FMI, did you vote to approve any previous MAPS' sales taxes or extensions...

:omg: Let's give this thing time. The City made promises and should keep them (use tax would be used for police & fire).

Mr. gmwise, just FMI, did you vote to approve any previous MAPS' sales taxes or extensions...

I voted for previous MAPS,But not for the MAPS for Millionaires.
I voted against MAPS3.
I felt some more checks and balances and some safeguards were lacking.
As well as some of the projects ,IMO wasnt good ones.
And the term of the tax is too long.

Tulsa FD charges EMSA approx $50 for every medical ride that the FD makes with EMSA. i understand that TULSA is hurting but so are we. I have known that Tulsa has been charging EMSA for quite sometime now and i was amazed that many people had just heard about it the other day.

I say we Charge EMSA for every medical ride we go on with them. i mean they are chargin people on their water bill for the ambulance ride after they submit their claim to their insurance if they have it. EMSA makes around 150 medical calls a day. if they charge each person lets say $4.00 ( not sure becuase i opted out) times what 800,000 people equals 3,200,000 right, well take 150 times 50 7500 a day is how much the fd would be charging emsa. times that by 365 days a year = approx $2,737,500. wow thats about how much the city wants to decrease the fd budget. emsa also gets a city subsidy and charges insurance companies and also gets medicare money as well i believe per pt they transport (might be some restrictions).

I dont know about anyone else but i believe that charging EMSA will take some burden off the budget. as long as the FD gets 100% of what they bill and it only goes to fire not the general fund any takers?

This is what our City leaders promised them if MAPS 3 passed.

Now, we should do what we promised!

I know that the police and fire unions campaigned against this and they made claims that the City couldn't be trusted on this promise!

I know several police and fire people who said that they went ahead and voted for MAPS because they didn't see what they had to gain in killing it!

Which city leaders? And was there a formal action taken by the city council? Should the mayor have made a promise without knowing whether he could back it up?

I've pondered this for a bit, and mentioned it before while still in the pondering stage.

F & P have demonstrated a willingness to take a message door to door.

From what I can see, folks listened, even folks who dinna agree with the message or the way it was presented.

It is a rarity to see someone in the general populace advocate taking funds from F & P.

So now that MAPs3 is over and done, perhaps F & P leadership, together with the membership in force, should lead the charge for approval to hold an up or down vote on an increase the dedicated public safety tax.

Ok, ok, the jail thang is still looming out there, but that's a county issue and shouldn't still the hand of the F & P from seeking to generate and apply public persuasion to the council. It's clear, and has been, that existing revenue streams can't touch the need. Fire in particular got a publicity gift when the trucks were cancelled for the hockey improvements.

Maybe F & P should consider whether, irrespective of MAPs, the time is now.

Just thinking aloud.

I say we Charge EMSA for every medical ride we go on with them. i mean they are chargin people on their water bill for the ambulance ride after they submit their claim to their insurance if they have it. EMSA makes around 150 medical calls a day. if they charge each person lets say $4.00 ( not sure becuase i opted out) times what 800,000 people equals 3,200,000 right, well take 150 times 50 7500 a day is how much the fd would be charging emsa. times that by 365 days a year = approx $2,737,500. wow thats about how much the city wants to decrease the fd budget. emsa also gets a city subsidy and charges insurance companies and also gets medicare money as well i believe per pt they transport (might be some restrictions).

I dont know about anyone else but i believe that charging EMSA will take some burden off the budget. as long as the FD gets 100% of what they bill and it only goes to fire not the general fund any takers?


Will EMSA get the right to decline your services?

Which city leaders? And was there a formal action taken by the city council? Should the mayor have made a promise without knowing whether he could back it up?

Very good questions. I think what you'll find is that the mayor was just saying what he thought he needed to say at the time. He had to know he didn't have the authority to make the promises. He was gambling that the general public didn't know he didn't have the authority. Does that make him a liar? That would be another good question to ask.

Why didn't Councilman White, or any of the other councilmembers, speak out about their concerns when these promises were being aired every 20 minutes or so on all the local channels. They had to know the mayor didn't have the authority to make the promises he was making. Maybe he just sat back and kept quiet because it served his purposes. That would be another good question to ask.

Why didn't councilman Marrs, instead of just standing there with the mayor during these press conferences, state his position that the city just needs to start eliminating services offered to the citizens. Where was this suggestion during these press conerences? What a difference a couple of weeks makes. I guess timing is everything.

Now if we just knew a hard hitting investigative journalist who could ask these questions.

Yeah....

In a very respectful way, of course

are you asking if EMSA would be allowed to no request the fd assistance? i dont knw the fine details but my opion is yes and no. i believe they should be able to on things like headaches or stubbed toes or if they have many free ambualnces. i dont think they should be able to in cases of chest pain dificulty breathing, those type of calls where early intervetion is key. Even if they do refuse to sendthe fd the crews on scene will them request them. For the most part the EMSA crews are very out of shape and dont have the muscle to lift a majority of these patients. Lts of EMSA crews hrt thier backs when i was first hired at EMSA people would say to let fire do the lifting because they got better health insurance than EMSA does and they would be beter taken care of. I have also scene Crews where the combined weight of both crew members maybe 210lbs COMBINED.
What i am trying to say is yes i beleive they should have some opton in some circumstances to not call fire from dispatch but i know the street crews will end up calling the fd anyway. for the most part EMSA crews and the FD get along great.

The F&P had a type of victory with the maps 3 campaign. If they werent going door to door talking to people the Mayor never would have made those promises and the citizens would have no idea on whats going on. What we did was got the citizens envolved with the Fire department and parked and interest that cant go unnoticed. so in a way we achieved a goal. public education.

I think you FF & PDP hold the public at large at hostage to your needs and wants..

I think you FF & PDP hold the public at large at hostage to your needs and wants..

Our needs and wants only help to serve the citizens of OKC better.
How can you fault that?
How do we hold the public hostage?

If anything we attempt to educate the public in order to keep our fire dept and police dept from being dwindled down in numbers and render our services ineffective.

We take great pride in our work and I would hope that you would agree that most people out there cannot do what we do, much less take pride in it and be great at it.

All that we want is safe levels of staffing and the proper equipment in the proper working order to do our jobs safely (if there is such a thing) and efficiently.

GEN70, Bless your heart! Let me know how we do that hostage thing. I never have been part of that, I must have been missing out on some secret special thing we get to do.