The Census recently put out its 2009 state population estimates, and Oklahoma did alright in terms of population growth. I was kind of waiting on the local news outlets to pick up on this, but since none of them did (or I haven't seen it), I thought I'd write it up.

Basically, 2008-2009 saw Oklahoma add 43,025 new faces, for a new population of 3.687 million people. This was a growth rate of 1.18%, which was just .01% short of putting us in the Top 10 fastest growing states.

Close to half of this increase was due to domestic migration, which is really good for Oklahoma- 5 out of 6 of the years from 2000-2005, we had negative domestic migration- but in the last four years, we have gained an average of 14,000 per year from other states.

I have made some simple to read tables showing Oklahoma's growth from 2000-2009, changes in domestic migration, and the Top 12 fastest-growing states here: RezoneOKC Blog Archive Oklahoma 11th Fastest Growing State (http://www.rezoneokc.com/blog/?p=129)

If you are like me and like enormous spreadsheets of fairly raw demographic data, check here for the Census CSV files, which will work in Excel:

Components of population change:
http://www.census.gov/popest/national/files/NST_EST2009_ALLDATA.csv

Population growth rates:
http://www.census.gov/popest/states/files/NST-EST2009-popchg2000-2009.csv

Cool. That should hopefully mean that Oklahoma won't have to lose another congressman after the 2010 census.

It would be nice to regain the congressman we lost in 2000, but then again, perhaps it's for the best that Oklahoma contribute as little as possible to national politics LOL.

Cool. That should hopefully mean that Oklahoma won't have to lose another congressman after the 2010 census.

Wow! I though you of all people might be happy to see OK lose a seat since OK's generally don't support your politics. (smile)

It would be nice to regain the congressman we lost in 2000, but then again, perhaps it's for the best that Oklahoma contribute as little as possible to national politics LOL.

Since you used LOL, I'm going to throw out a dinosaur: ROFLOL

I believe Oklahoma can turn the corner with significant in-migration this next decade. With the improvements in Q of L areas started by initiatives like project 180, Maps 3, Devon bldg, Sandridge etc. etc and steady job growth Oklahoma is poised for a modern day land run of new residents

Personally I'm pretty concerned about MAPS 3 and SandRidge at this point..yes the development is good, but those projects are desperately in need of some divine urban intervention. Quality of urbanism is quality of life..I'd rather have a downtown that works than one that we just continue to lay waste to with these huge superblocks that don't really even interact with each other.

If that's the yellow brick road to the economic promised land then I'd rather not sell out like that. I'll just settle down in Pittsburgh or Cleveland after college. It makes no difference to me how many people are moving to a region or whatever. I'm more interested in a place with a strong community and a city that feels alive, one that I would be excited to be in the midst of.

I'm so much more excited about the possibility of OKC becoming a real city than I am about all of the people who may begin to move here. Downtown doesn't need OKC to be the next Phoenix in order to take off..we have enough pent up demand, and that will build on itself. If you look at areas like Cleveland County and pretty much anywhere outside the Kilpatrick Turnpike, there are an amazing number of new neighborhoods going up right now. The sprawl is just incredible. That tells me that housing and development is in high demand with the level of growth we've sustained over the last 5 years. If MAPS 3 adds to that and brings more of it into the inner city, that would be awesome.

But don't count on growth meaning anything for downtown until the day we see OKC adopt building moratoriums. And at the rate we're going, that won't happen anytime soon. Crazy prediction, are you all ready? -- OKC will be almost built-out in 20 years, with the exception of areas that are in environmental protection, such as virtually everything east of Sooner Rd. By that time it won't mean anything to have a tract housing moratorium and such a policy would be counter productive because Edmond and Moore and Yukon would just take over. At this point OKC still controls the majority of sprawl in the metro.

I think it would be great if you could settle down in Pittsburg or Cleveland. I get the feeling that you will never be happy with OKC regardless of what happens.

Yeah, it is sprawling like crazy to the west and north of OKC. I am also worried about the Sandridge destruction of downtown and the placement of the convention center.

I think it would be great if you could settle down in Pittsburg or Cleveland. I get the feeling that you will never be happy with OKC regardless of what happens.

Well I would love to have ties to Pittsburgh or Cleveland as well, but I don't. I have ties to OKC, and I'm the kind of guy that tends to stay true to ties. I think OKC, including people like you, needs to be less ass-backwards and embrace the people who are attempting to build this place into something great..

How about that reply?

Spartan, I think the ass-backwards statement was answered by the vote in MAPS1, MAPS4Kids, the Ford Renovations vote, the 2007 bond issue and MAPS3. This city IS building itself into something great and doing it our own way. No other city in the country has done what OKC has done on the vote of the people.

No, I absolutely agree mug! OKC is showing some incredible promise. My "ass-backwards" comment was a direct response to the "why don't you go to Pittsburgh" comment, that's why I labeled the post as a "reply" and not a "statement" sort of thing..

We're trying, Spartan. We'll get there, I think. We're never going to get back the wonderful old buildings we tore down, and we're always going to have a more raw, new look than the great old cities in the US. But, hopefully, with MAPS 3 and Core to Shore, we can show the rest of the country what can be done with blighted land, a vision, and a willingness to tax ourselves to make it happen.

Spartan,

Continue doing what you do, you bring good insight to this forum and don't lose your ties.

Stay true to Okc.

The true heroes are the guys who stand in the way of progress for progress' sake, guys like Anthony McDermid who tried to fight against the Chamber site, and for The Hill site, and for the Braniff Building. OKC patriots who are willing to step out of line and take heat for standing the way of progress are what OKC needs more of. Another great example is Randy Floyd, and even though I disagree with her assessment of preserving SoSA, the important thing is that she made a stand. More people need to make a stand and be willing to be a fly in the ointment if we're going to "shape up."

This growth is great. It's excellent that OKC is beginning to take off. The reality though is that all of that growth will be manifested in sprawl. Urban development of downtown and infill will happen regardless of population growth because we have already set it in motion. Downtown doesn't need to be a district for suburbanites by suburbanites and of suburbanites. Downtown needs to make sure that new development is great for downtown, and not just for keeping the city growing in general.

Take the new convention center for example. There will be an amazing metro-wide economic benefit to that, but we also run the risk of downtown getting screwed over. The last thing that downtown needs is another huge cluster of superblocks that don't react with each other. Sure, it's great for the metro and growth and business and creating a city that people "have" to move to (like other places people move to because of jobs, not because they want to), but it's not great for creating a downtown that people WANT to live in. There's a difference. It's the great quality of life compromise in my opinion. We put these assets downtown to centralize the city and we think we're doing downtown a great favor and growth is good, of course, but they can also be a double edged sword.


Spartan,

Continue doing what you do, you bring good insight to this forum and don't lose your ties.

Stay true to Okc.

Thanks Lee!

this is just more great news for my home state! i'm very glad to hear it. along with the florida gators finally losing a game (to alabama, my second favorite college football team, behind OU, of course!), MAPS3, devon's new highrise, project 180, the list goes on and on. way to go OKC! i can't wait to move home next year!!!!

If that's the yellow brick road to the economic promised land then I'd rather not sell out like that. I'll just settle down in Pittsburgh or Cleveland after college. It makes no difference to me how many people are moving to a region or whatever. I'm more interested in a place with a strong community and a city that feels alive, one that I would be excited to be in the midst of.

And so you wish that Oklahoma City would imitate the way that Cleveland and Pittsburgh is doing. But those cities are so much older than Oklahoma City.

The true heroes are the guys who stand in the way of progress for progress' sake, guys like Anthony McDermid who tried to fight against the Chamber site, and for The Hill site, and for the Braniff Building. OKC patriots who are willing to step out of line and take heat for standing the way of progress are what OKC needs more of. Another great example is Randy Floyd, and even though I disagree with her assessment of preserving SoSA, the important thing is that she made a stand. More people need to make a stand and be willing to be a fly in the ointment if we're going to "shape up."

There is a very fine line of standing in the way of "progress for the sake of progress" and standing in the way of progress.

Nobody is "standing in the way of progress" .. people need to just get over that.

Nobody is "standing in the way of progress" .. people need to just get over that.

Disagree. Remember the folks who were upset and took action to delay because some of the railroad tracks would be removed to make room for the new I-40 downtown?

If you look at Shane's website, he has a neat little table that shows the population increase for Oklahoma over the last decade. From 2000 to 2005, we were averaging about 15,000 new residents a year. In 2005, the number was 18,320. But then in 2006, just one year later, we gained 41,000 (a jump of 23,000) and started averaging around 38,000, more than double the 2000-2005 period.

What do you guys think is behind this? Our economic situation was clearly better than most other states, but do you think it was so great that it alone can account for that large of a jump?

Disagree. Remember the folks who were upset and took action to delay because some of the railroad tracks would be removed to make room for the new I-40 downtown?

You can't deny that Tom Elmore had a few points. The problem with Elmore's crusade was that ODOT already gave us the shaft. The highway is already half-way finished..money has been spent. ODOT forced this project on us by lying about the true cost (which was 3 times what they originally said, and no projections are ever THAT badly off) and they never solicited a discussion on the railyard.

When ODOT began moving on the I-35 widening project all the way through Cleveland County, they held multiple town hall meetings. Multiple town hall meetings have been held for the Skelly Drive (I-44) widening project in Tulsa, too. And multiple town hall meetings have been put on by ODOT in both OKC and Tulsa on their application for federal funds for high-speed rail between the two cities, a project that's not even been funded yet. NO advertised, public meetings were held for the Crosstown relocation, a project twice as expensive as the Skelly project, and three times as expensive as the I-35 project.

I think we need more "agitators" like Tom Elmore because anyone who denies how corrupt and inept ODOT is..needs to pass the peace pipe. I also love how ODOT spent 3 times as much as Missouri did on these cable barriers that are just as effective as theirs. And any time an ODOT spokesman is on the news they're always sitting on their fat asses at their desk, not even bothering to stand or look busy, and they usually look fresh out of college and nervous anytime a hard question is asked about ODOT.

Elmore wasn't standing in the way of progress, contrary to popular belief, he had a vision. He just wasn't in touch with the reality and wasn't capable of moving on to something he'd be more effective in advocating for. He should have gotten behind the Bezdek proposal. I remember asking him about it and he seemed to just think it was some new-fangled expensive downtown project. He needs to realize that's just the way any rail is going to be in the beginning of restoring rail transit in Central Oklahoma, because contrary to his belief, the majority of the infrastructure that was once in use IS gone and that's a fact.

ODOT is corrupt.

They sent proposals to Norman for getting rid of the Lindsay exit, when in fact they had no intention of getting rid of the exit. They did it to divert attention away from citizens of Norman asking about other projects such as moving highway 77 and the Robinson tunnel under the railroad as well as any other issue.

They spent thousands of dollars hiring consultants and engineers to design the widening of the interstate without the Lindsay exit.

Typical ODOT!

It is patently false that ODOT held no public meetings regarding the I-40 relocation. I say this as someone who has no connection to ODOT and wouldn't necessarily consider myself a "fan" of theirs. But ODOT held MULTIPLE, widely-publicized meetings prior to the selelction of the relocation route. I know this because I attended a couple. They were covered extensively in the media.

Here are a couple of links from ODOT's site detailing some of the process timeline: Link 1 (http://www.40forward.com/building_crosstown/timeline.aspx) | Link 2 (http://www.okladot.state.ok.us/newsmedia/i40-okc/press/Time-Line-of-Events.pdf)

Perhaps you aren't aware of the meetings because they were held in the mid-late 1990s. These types of projects take many years to come about. Perhaps in 1996 or 1998 a project 10-15 years in future didn't really register with the public, and maybe that is why so few members became engaged. But the facts in the matter are that there WERE a number of very public meetings on the subject of the I-40 relocation. Saying there weren't is revisionist history.

If a meeting is held 10 years before even breaking ground you might as well not even have the meetings. I wasn't lying, I just couldn't come up with any when I did a search on the Oklahoman archives. I didn't set the parameters to include the 1990s though. Give me a break.

If a meeting is held 10 years before even breaking ground you might as well not even have the meetings. I wasn't lying, I just couldn't come up with any when I did a search on the Oklahoman archives. I didn't set the parameters to include the 1990s though. Give me a break.

It was delayed because of a lack of federal funding but I can remember them discussing it when I was in high school (late 90s)

OK. Well pardon me, because I was in Houston back then. But I still say that the entire Crosstown process was totally corrupt and they really forced that project much more than they have any other projects. I don't even think they're serious about high speed rail to Tulsa personally..

And so you wish that Oklahoma City would imitate the way that Cleveland and Pittsburgh is doing. But those cities are so much older than Oklahoma City.

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You can't deny that Tom Elmore had a few points. The problem with Elmore's crusade was that ODOT already gave us the shaft. The highway is already half-way finished..money has been spent. ODOT forced this project on us by lying about the true cost (which was 3 times what they originally said, and no projections are ever THAT badly off) and they never solicited a discussion on the railyard.

When ODOT began moving on the I-35 widening project all the way through Cleveland County, they held multiple town hall meetings. Multiple town hall meetings have been held for the Skelly Drive (I-44) widening project in Tulsa, too. And multiple town hall meetings have been put on by ODOT in both OKC and Tulsa on their application for federal funds for high-speed rail between the two cities, a project that's not even been funded yet. NO advertised, public meetings were held for the Crosstown relocation, a project twice as expensive as the Skelly project, and three times as expensive as the I-35 project.
I think we need more "agitators" like Tom Elmore because anyone who denies how corrupt and inept ODOT is..needs to pass the peace pipe. I also love how ODOT spent 3 times as much as Missouri did on these cable barriers that are just as effective as theirs. And any time an ODOT spokesman is on the news they're always sitting on their fat asses at their desk, not even bothering to stand or look busy, and they usually look fresh out of college and nervous anytime a hard question is asked about ODOT.

Elmore wasn't standing in the way of progress, contrary to popular belief, he had a vision. He just wasn't in touch with the reality and wasn't capable of moving on to something he'd be more effective in advocating for. He should have gotten behind the Bezdek proposal. I remember asking him about it and he seemed to just think it was some new-fangled expensive downtown project. He needs to realize that's just the way any rail is going to be in the beginning of restoring rail transit in Central Oklahoma, because contrary to his belief, the majority of the infrastructure that was once in use IS gone and that's a fact.

I attended two advertised meetings re: the relocation of I-40, found out about both meetings in the Daily Oklahoman. There were several other open meetings and numerous articles and maps in the paper and on local news, most articles mentioned where/who to call to voice any concerns or suggestions.

Okay, so when the Crosstown Bridge collapses and a couple of hundred lives are lost before the new I-40 is complete, then this whole political can-kicking contest becomes pointless and useless.

Now let's get back on topic of population growth and cease the political yapping.

Good to hear OKC came it at number 11. I can easily see OKC fly past Utah in population growth in the next 10 years. With OKC and Tulsa both poised to grow a fast yet controllable rate, Im pretty sure we can look forward to being in the top 5 not long from now. I read an exerpt from economist Harry Dent who specifically names OKC and Tulsa (populations of roughly a million) as cities that are on track to be the next big "growing cities". He claims the previous big "growing cities" (Dallas, Houston, Atlanta, Phoenix) are now becoming too large and the lifestyle is not desireable for most people (mainly families). Being out of college a few years, I have already noticed many more graduates staying in state after college or at least coming back. Im pretty sure the snowball is starting to roll and we are for sure (OKC) about to explode.
Does anyone have a different opinion than I do?

Nice...this thread has turned from its subject of population growth to an argument about about ODOT's public meetings on I-40. Get back to the topic and argue I-40 on the I-40 thread.

I think we will catch up with Utah once they have no more room to grow but up. Most of their population growth is from the birth rate. I don't think any state will match that rate. I think if we come in the top five that we will be good in growth.

I just hope that with growth in OKC and Tulsa that smaller cities like McAlester, Enid, Stillwater, Ponca City, Woodward, Lawton, etc grow. If we can get jobs in those cities then our state growth will be top 5. Two cities cannot do it all. Norman is doing great in a attracting jobs, and it is going to continue to grow with OKC and Tulsa.

I cannot wait to see where the breakout of growth for the state is. I don't know if we will see that for the 2009 or if we will have to wait for the 2010 census.

Okay, so when the Crosstown Bridge collapses and a couple of hundred lives are lost before the new I-40 is complete, then this whole political can-kicking contest becomes pointless and useless.

Now let's get back on topic of population growth and cease the political yapping.

Yeah you got me, I can't wait for all those people to die... (sarcasm)

If a meeting is held 10 years before even breaking ground you might as well not even have the meetings. I wasn't lying, I just couldn't come up with any when I did a search on the Oklahoman archives. I didn't set the parameters to include the 1990s though. Give me a break.
Hey, I'm certainly no ODOT apologist. I was only responding to your statement "NO advertised, public meetings were held for the Crosstown relocation..." It is factually incorrect, and was integral to your post. It took about 30 seconds and a single Google search to get the right facts. All I am saying is if you are going to call people corrupt or impugn their integrity you should at least make an ATTEMPT to have your facts straight. Is ODOT corrupt? Heck, I have no idea. I just know that some years ago I attended meetings regarding the I-40 relocation, and that it was publicly a hot topic of discussion in the '90s.

Having been on the recieving end of baseless, intentionally false and anonymous Internet slander before, it makes me a little more tuned in when someone glibly accuses someone else of something I know is not true. I would hope someone would do the same for you if people were citing flawed info to call you corrupt. As a matter of fact I would come to your defense myself, if I knew the facts. I'm not saying you were lying; just that your facts were wrong.

And while I agree that getting back on topic here is best, I will say only one more thing: 10 or more years out is when ALL public meetings happen regarding planning for federally-funded highway construction, especially for new routes, the type that wipe out neighborhoods. I'm only guessing here, but I suspect 10 years sounds like a much longer time to you than it does me due to differences in our age. In the grand scheme of things, and with projects of this type, 10 years is not a long time at all. Just because you weren't here when it happened (I expected that was the case) doesn't mean it was done wrong. Give ME a break.

\Being out of college a few years, I have already noticed many more graduates staying in state after college or at least coming back. Im pretty sure the snowball is starting to roll and we are for sure (OKC) about to explode.
Does anyone have a different opinion than I do?

I agree with that. I'm a college student now, and I think I've noticed a change in attitudes of people over the last five years. Before, they were ready to go to Dallas or at least get out of Oklahoma, now more people are talking about how Oklahoma is changing for the better and wanting to stay here.


I just hope that with growth in OKC and Tulsa that smaller cities like McAlester, Enid, Stillwater, Ponca City, Woodward, Lawton, etc grow. If we can get jobs in those cities then our state growth will be top 5. Two cities cannot do it all. Norman is doing great in a attracting jobs, and it is going to continue to grow with OKC and Tulsa.

I'd guess that Stillwater and the Ardmore-Lake Texoma region are going to be the emerging growth areas in Oklahoma. They have already been doing well over the last couple of years.

County estimates from July 1, 2009 will be available in March, so we'll be able to see which areas got the most of these new residents.

Didn't Stillwater lose Mercruiser?

They lost Mercrusiser, but there are a lot of OSU alumni that are retiring to Stillwater. There is a boom in building southwest of Stillwater.

See that's funny because I thought people attending OSU already were retired..

Oh, you so well love to get off topic.

They lost Mercruiser, but there are a lot of OSU alumni that are retiring to Stillwater. There is a boom in building southwest of Stillwater.
Yeah, it's like the suburban part of Stillwater that no one is ever going to see unless you're willing to go out of the way. And I bet OSU alumni have money.

If Mercury can possibly sell that huge plant, it will be interesting to see what will go into it. My guess it would be some warehouse for a chain store company to stock its made in China junk.

I can see Stillwater being added to the Oklahoma City CSA in 2020, if not 2010.

Especially since the major growth is in SW Stillwater area, which already encroaches on the boundary of the existing OKC MSA (near Guthrie/Perry).

If you look at Shane's website, he has a neat little table that shows the population increase for Oklahoma over the last decade. From 2000 to 2005, we were averaging about 15,000 new residents a year. In 2005, the number was 18,320. But then in 2006, just one year later, we gained 41,000 (a jump of 23,000) and started averaging around 38,000, more than double the 2000-2005 period.

What do you guys think is behind this? Our economic situation was clearly better than most other states, but do you think it was so great that it alone can account for that large of a jump?

I believe this is due to the ever increasing quality of life being offered in the State for young and old, the relatively low taxes, cost of living, entertainment options, improved self image, national exposure brought by the new NBA team etc. etc. I hope to retire back home in 2-3 years. Oklahoma is on a roll and is only going to get better:dizzy::dizzy:

I can see Stillwater being added to the Oklahoma City CSA in 2020, if not 2010.

Especially since the major growth is in SW Stillwater area, which already encroaches on the boundary of the existing OKC MSA (near Guthrie/Perry).

Payne County is more likely to be added to Tulsa in my opinion..

Stillwater will stay independent. It is too far away from both cities.

Payne County is more likely to be added to Tulsa in my opinion..

Why? When cable TV is overwhelmingly dominated by the Oklahoma City channels over Tulsa in both Stillwater and Cushing? Do you realize that KTUL 8 is the only channel from Tulsa on cable from those two biggest Payne County towns? Or do you feel that point has absolutely nothing to do in determining how a county becomes a new part of a MSA?

I can see Stillwater being added to the Oklahoma City CSA in 2020, if not 2010.

Especially since the major growth is in SW Stillwater area, which already encroaches on the boundary of the existing OKC MSA (near Guthrie/Perry).

LOL. Do you not realize the western city limits of Stillwater is at least 10 miles from the Logan County boundary line?

To kill this argument, the U.S. Office of Management and Budget counts Payne County has a part of Oklahoma City's trade region, and it is very unlikely that Payne County will join the OKC MSA since commute patterns do not reflect the characteristics of a metropolitan county to Oklahoma City.

Why? When cable TV is overwhelmingly dominated by the Oklahoma City channels over Tulsa in both Stillwater and Cushing? Do you realize that KTUL 8 is the only channel from Tulsa on cable from those two biggest Payne County towns? Or do you feel that point has absolutely nothing to do in determining how a county becomes a new part of a MSA?

I assume you're asking a legitimate, and not rhetorical, question.

I think that cable is irrelevant, but I was under the impression Tulsa affliates were more popular in Tulsa, even if only for the fact of the traditional "rule" that everyone in OKC goes to OU and everyone in Tulsa goes to OSU or TU.

The reason Payne County is more likely to go with Tulsa is because of all of the cross migration on the east end of the county around Lake Keystone and Mannford. Cross migration is what the census bureau studies to determine statistical regions.

I assume you're asking a legitimate, and not rhetorical, question.

I think that cable is irrelevant, but I was under the impression Tulsa affliates were more popular in Tulsa, even if only for the fact of the traditional "rule" that everyone in OKC goes to OU and everyone in Tulsa goes to OSU or TU.

The reason Payne County is more likely to go with Tulsa is because of all of the cross migration on the east end of the county around Lake Keystone and Mannford. Cross migration is what the census bureau studies to determine statistical regions.

The point was that the Oklahoma City TV affiliates overwhelmingly rule the Tulsa ones for reception, off air or on cable, and size of viewership in Payne County, so why should Payne County be a part of the Tulsa MSA?

lol, Spartan, it's actually all about how Stillwater and Payne County population relates to Tulsa, not how it relates to Lake Keystone and Mannford.

If it relates to Tulsa then it's MSA. It's not going to be a part of ANY MSA so that's out of the question. If it relates to a PART of the Tulsa MSA then it's the CSA, like Bartlesville, or Shawnee.

That's after you've exhausted studying the traffic patterns along county lines.