Tulsa World: Ex-member of council sounded alarm early (http://www.tulsaworld.com/news/article.aspx?subjectid=334&articleid=20091220_11_A1_Muchli611998)

"History of growth: On the night in June that the council approved the budget, Martinson and the council's policy administrator, Jack Blair, gave a presentation that showed that Tulsa's combined police and fire general fund budgets have grown by more than three times the rate of inflation over 40 years.

Between 1968 and 2008, the budgets increased from $7.7 million to $149.9 million. At the rate of inflation, they would have totaled $44.6 million.

The departmental budgets have grown 14 times as fast than the number of fire and police personnel, their presentation showed. The police and fire departments now have 1,607 employees, fewer than a decade ago when they had 1,660.

"They always claim they need new officers, but anything they get goes into the pockets of the existing employees and not new help," Martinson said.

The fire and police departments take the entire 2 percent of Tulsa's sales tax dedicated for operations, forcing the city to rely on other revenue sources to fund all other needs.

That has gutted other city departments, Martinson said.

"Quite frankly, we're already seeing the impact of some of the other departments being cut below any semblance of reason," he said.

Although police and fire union officials maintain that it is important to preserve and raise salaries to remain competitive with peer cities, Martinson said a better measurement is what Tulsa's market will bear. He noted that the departments always get plenty of academy applications.

"Bottom line, the police and fire compensation structures are way out of line with the local economy," he said. "

Quite fascinating. Thanks Steve (I don't normally peruse the World - maybe I should).

Martinson is absolutely right. I have been following the situation in Tulsa and they're looking at cutting at least a hundred (1/6th) of their fire dept and quite a few police officers as well. Overall public safety is going to be cut 8.8% along with every other dept unless Tulsa sales tax collections miraculously spike upwards after the Holidays. Tulsa has been hit much harder than OKC which is remarkable considering that Tulsa has so much BETTER places to shop than OKC (They actually have Saks, Whole Foods, etc).

Public safety is the worst thing we can be spending our money on. Every increased dime that we give them just goes into the pockets of existing employees. They aren't adding to their numbers, despite that being their mantra for more funding, and what these officers do on the clock is a sham in the first place. For an average of $78,000 a year most of OKC's police officers are cruising highways and sitting still along thoroughfares looking for speeders. NOT fighting our city's gang problem. And we wonder why we have gang issues? The fact of the matter is that our gang problems fall on our already $$$-bloated police dept. When you are the highest-paid police dept in the region, in the lowest cost of living city in the region I might add, you can't pass the buck on gang problems. Being featured on Gangland is inexcusable.

Were OKC paid to appear on that show? Probably. So in between going to the donut shop and spending 50% of their time looking for speeders, the rest of their time filing paperwork and police reports on those speeding tickets, taking the occasional domestic dispute sham call where some mom is calling the police on her kid for not eating his veggies, it's amazing they even have the time to appear on TV in the first place!

These people who we like to think are doing the public a service by doing a job none of us could really do are in fact sucking the govt tit as hard as they can squeezing as much out it for themselves as possible. That's the way it is any time you have union employees on the govt payroll. "Public service" my arse. I would even tolerate union politics and union corruption and union worker pay rates if it actually led to a drop in crime and eradicating our city's gangs -- but there is absolutely no evidence available to support that police are effecting in wiping out gangs. This money would be better spent on education, which is the only ingredient our state is really missing. If we were better educated WE WOULDN'T HAVE THE GANG/CRIME PROBLEMS WE HAVE NOW. We would be featured on the History Channel for GOOD things.

I say get rid of the unions, cut police pay by at least 40%, don't add any more police to the streets, stop getting them shiny new cars every 2 years, make them use their equipment to last, and abolish the permanent funding source that they have that no other public safety dept in this region has anything like. We need to see an end to the day where police unions have held us all hostage and won't let us go. As we increase police budgets, crime has soared. The definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over and over and expecting a different result. We want to lower crime..oh I know, let's triple the police budget again!

For a real laugh, read some of the comments at the bottom of the article. My favorites are the people calling for privatization of the police and fire departments. LOL. Tulsa is full of people who think that way, which is one reason their city is circling the drain right now. NOT ANOTHER TAX EVER thinking has drained them of revenue sources to do the basics, let alone anything that will get them ahead.

Yeah it kind of sucks when you're to the point that you refuse to fund anything BESIDES police. What do you brag about as a city? An over-funded police force and a high crime rate (Tulsa)? That's getting bang for your tax buck..

Yeah it kind of sucks when you're to the point that you refuse to fund anything BESIDES police. An imbalanced union influence.

This should get interesting.


Hopefully we can have an even-handed discussion.

I would rather everyone just realize that the unions need to go and that public safety really isn't that great. I have been complaining on here for about a month now that public safety is arguably the #1 money drain in this state. Look at how the cop unions have manipulated OKC, Tulsa, Norman, Stillwater, and other cities around the state, and look at the gang problem in OKC and the burgeoning overall crime rate in Tulsa. We need to have a different priority than so-called "public safety" which has for TOO LONG been the #1 priority in this state. We need someone with the common sense to stand up to cop bullying and say NO MORE for lavish overpriced jail facilities, no more for union kickbacks, no more raises..cops don't need to be making twice the state average income. Last but not least, no more unions. We are a poor state and we can not afford to piss money down the drain in the way that we have with so-called "public safety." Look what becoming a police state has accomplished for Oklahoma -- we are one of the most backward, washed-up, uneducated, poorest states in the nation. No wonder we have to try so hard in OKC just to compete with places half our size like Omaha and Des Moines.

Harsh words from Spartan, but I have to agree for the most part.

I kinda wondered when this type of thread would start. And it appears the leading voice of ignorance will be Spartan to the lead.......kinda thought we were a "right to work state".

Ok High and mighties, tell me all about the evil unions and we'll banter about the evil "city leaders and their flunkies" we have to try and talk with every year. Can we at least try and keep it civil; or should we resort straight to the bullying?

Martinson is absolutely right. I have been following the situation in Tulsa and they're looking at cutting at least a hundred (1/6th) of their fire dept and quite a few police officers as well. Overall public safety is going to be cut 8.8% along with every other dept unless Tulsa sales tax collections miraculously spike upwards after the Holidays. Tulsa has been hit much harder than OKC which is remarkable considering that Tulsa has so much BETTER places to shop than OKC (They actually have Saks, Whole Foods, etc).

Public safety is the worst thing we can be spending our money on. Every increased dime that we give them just goes into the pockets of existing employees. They aren't adding to their numbers, despite that being their mantra for more funding, and what these officers do on the clock is a sham in the first place. For an average of $78,000 a year most of OKC's police officers are cruising highways and sitting still along thoroughfares looking for speeders. NOT fighting our city's gang problem. And we wonder why we have gang issues? The fact of the matter is that our gang problems fall on our already $$$-bloated police dept. When you are the highest-paid police dept in the region, in the lowest cost of living city in the region I might add, you can't pass the buck on gang problems. Being featured on Gangland is inexcusable.

Were OKC paid to appear on that show? Probably. So in between going to the donut shop and spending 50% of their time looking for speeders, the rest of their time filing paperwork and police reports on those speeding tickets, taking the occasional domestic dispute sham call where some mom is calling the police on her kid for not eating his veggies, it's amazing they even have the time to appear on TV in the first place!

These people who we like to think are doing the public a service by doing a job none of us could really do are in fact sucking the govt tit as hard as they can squeezing as much out it for themselves as possible. That's the way it is any time you have union employees on the govt payroll. "Public service" my arse. I would even tolerate union politics and union corruption and union worker pay rates if it actually led to a drop in crime and eradicating our city's gangs -- but there is absolutely no evidence available to support that police are effecting in wiping out gangs. This money would be better spent on education, which is the only ingredient our state is really missing. If we were better educated WE WOULDN'T HAVE THE GANG/CRIME PROBLEMS WE HAVE NOW. We would be featured on the History Channel for GOOD things.

I say get rid of the unions, cut police pay by at least 40%, don't add any more police to the streets, stop getting them shiny new cars every 2 years, make them use their equipment to last, and abolish the permanent funding source that they have that no other public safety dept in this region has anything like. We need to see an end to the day where police unions have held us all hostage and won't let us go. As we increase police budgets, crime has soared. The definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over and over and expecting a different result. We want to lower crime..oh I know, let's triple the police budget again!

This just reeks of ignorance, most of the OCPD does NOT sit around giving traffic tickets and the department is understaffed. Much of their time is spent running from call to call strapped for time and then any spare time is spent doing REQUIRED paperwork that all the officers I am friends with, HATE doing.

The department doesn't get all new cars every two years...cutting the pay of those who risk their lives for the safety of the citizens isn't something people should be advocating, but hey its alright until YOU need OCPD, then when it takes an hour to respond because they're drastically understaffed maybe you'll pull your head out of your hind end and realize that politics and legal issues make policing much more difficult and time consuming today then it was 40 years ago.

A close family member of mine was shot at fourth day on the job, been hit in the face, spit on, bled on time and again...something that happens to NONE of us in our jobs each day so I'd say they are compensated just fine, if not underpaid.

As for the police union, i dont like them much either...but with people such as yourself out there, is it any wonder why the union is so powerful? if it were up to you they'd all make 10 bucks an hour and the city would have all of 500 officers for a population of 540,000 and 600+ square miles that need policing...


edit: I'd also like to see specifics on that pay rate average of 78k/yr
I know a close family member on the force, been on for a couple years and is making about 50k, working the streets...50k isn't enough for what he goes through day in and day out.

78k seems a bit high since the LT's I know have base salaries of somewhere in the mid/upper 70s. I wonder if that includes extra job pay...if it does it is important to note that extra jobs DO NOT cost the city money, the entity requesting the officers pay for them...

For a real laugh, read some of the comments at the bottom of the article. My favorites are the people calling for privatization of the police and fire departments. LOL. Tulsa is full of people who think that way, which is one reason their city is circling the drain right now. NOT ANOTHER TAX EVER thinking has drained them of revenue sources to do the basics, let alone anything that will get them ahead.

Well said...

Spartan, I thought I remember you saying the gangs featured on the show weren't really a problem and with a little sensitivity training all would be well......
So in your expert opinion, do we have a gang problem or is it really just a good starting point for your next boisterous opinion on unions and how you believe anyone in public safety is overpaid? Either way, this should be interesting.

I think it is a shame that some people believe everything they see on T.V. I watched the Gangland show too...I believe that the same T.V. producer could make Union City look just as scary and bad. Come on, this show is edited, emphasized, supersized, and overly dramatized FOR RATINGS! Sure, there are a few groups of thugs in OKC. But hardly is there blood running in the streets every day from the horrific gangland killings that are depicted on the show. Maybe someone can post our yearly murder rate. I bet it isn't quite as dramatic as the show makes it sound. (don't get me wrong, one killing is too many). Our crime rate is low comparitivly speaking because of the men and women that we have in our law enforcement groups. As for ticket writing, this brings in revenue and helps to save lives every day by getting people to slow down, wear seat belts, stop driving drunk, etc......Do away with competent officers and then you really would see our city on t.v. shows with more accurate depictions that are close to what Gangland tried to insenuate that we already have. As for being highest paid in the region, please Sparton, give me what you are considering a region. OCPD officers are not the highest paid in our region. Nor are the Firefighters in OKC since you are blasting the unions.
Do yourelf a favor, turn off the t.v. once in a while, don't believe every word of the newspaper, and get out into the real world by talking to a VARIETY of people with information on what ever subject you are interested in . Take some information from each person and figure out what the real story is and what is over dramatized, falsefied, exagerated, and just plain made up for the hell of it. Remember the old saying for computers..GARBAGE IN=GARBAGE OUT.

I would rather everyone just realize that the unions need to go and that public safety really isn't that great. I have been complaining on here for about a month now that public safety is arguably the #1 money drain in this state. Look at how the cop unions have manipulated OKC, Tulsa, Norman, Stillwater, and other cities around the state, and look at the gang problem in OKC and the burgeoning overall crime rate in Tulsa. We need to have a different priority than so-called "public safety" which has for TOO LONG been the #1 priority in this state. We need someone with the common sense to stand up to cop bullying and say NO MORE for lavish overpriced jail facilities, no more for union kickbacks, no more raises..cops don't need to be making twice the state average income. Last but not least, no more unions. We are a poor state and we can not afford to piss money down the drain in the way that we have with so-called "public safety." Look what becoming a police state has accomplished for Oklahoma -- we are one of the most backward, washed-up, uneducated, poorest states in the nation. No wonder we have to try so hard in OKC just to compete with places half our size like Omaha and Des Moines.

Well, can you cite a metro area where the police are not unonized and their pay and crime rates are significantly lower? If being a police officer is one of the last jobs you would ever want, then I think you need to better appreciate the police. Besides, a lot of people in Oklahoma strongly feel that meth users and pot smokers need to be caught and put in jail. Putting away drug users is a big priority for public safety in Oklahoma.

Oklahoma is one of the most highly imprisoned places on earth. If the citizens think that's a great idea to keep running with, then don't be surprised with more new shiny jails going up and for increasing demand for new, well paid cops to help fill them.

By the way, get up to date. Oklahoma isn't as poor as it used to be. It may be around no. 28 now in per capita income.

Do yourelf a favor, turn off the t.v. once in a while, don't believe every word of the newspaper, and get out into the real world by talking to a VARIETY of people with information on what ever subject you are interested in . Take some information from each person and figure out what the real story is and what is over dramatized, falsefied, exagerated, and just plain made up for the hell of it. Remember the old saying for computers..GARBAGE IN=GARBAGE OUT.

But he does. He been to a lot of cities. That's why I asked him if he knew of any metro areas where the police are not unionized.

Who ever said they believed everything they saw on TV?

The good news for us is that the Fire Department's budget actually had a decrease this year.

This just reeks of ignorance, most of the OCPD does NOT sit around giving traffic tickets and the department is understaffed. Much of their time is spent running from call to call strapped for time and then any spare time is spent doing REQUIRED paperwork that all the officers I am friends with, HATE doing.
The department doesn't get all new cars every two years...cutting the pay of those who risk their lives for the safety of the citizens isn't something people should be advocating, but hey its alright until YOU need OCPD, then when it takes an hour to respond because they're drastically understaffed maybe you'll pull your head out of your hind end and realize that politics and legal issues make policing much more difficult and time consuming today then it was 40 years ago.

A close family member of mine was shot at fourth day on the job, been hit in the face, spit on, bled on time and again...something that happens to NONE of us in our jobs each day so I'd say they are compensated just fine, if not underpaid.

As for the police union, i dont like them much either...but with people such as yourself out there, is it any wonder why the union is so powerful? if it were up to you they'd all make 10 bucks an hour and the city would have all of 500 officers for a population of 540,000 and 600+ square miles that need policing...


edit: I'd also like to see specifics on that pay rate average of 78k/yr
I know a close family member on the force, been on for a couple years and is making about 50k, working the streets...50k isn't enough for what he goes through day in and day out.

78k seems a bit high since the LT's I know have base salaries of somewhere in the mid/upper 70s. I wonder if that includes extra job pay...if it does it is important to note that extra jobs DO NOT cost the city money, the entity requesting the officers pay for them...

It's funny you state" they spend their time running from call to call, anduse any spare time doing paper work" excuse my ignorance, but isn't that their job.

This just reeks of ignorance, most of the OCPD does NOT sit around giving traffic tickets and the department is understaffed. Much of their time is spent running from call to call strapped for time and then any spare time is spent doing REQUIRED paperwork that all the officers I am friends with, HATE doing.
The department doesn't get all new cars every two years...cutting the pay of those who risk their lives for the safety of the citizens isn't something people should be advocating, but hey its alright until YOU need OCPD, then when it takes an hour to respond because they're drastically understaffed maybe you'll pull your head out of your hind end and realize that politics and legal issues make policing much more difficult and time consuming today then it was 40 years ago.

A close family member of mine was shot at fourth day on the job, been hit in the face, spit on, bled on time and again...something that happens to NONE of us in our jobs each day so I'd say they are compensated just fine, if not underpaid.

As for the police union, i dont like them much either...but with people such as yourself out there, is it any wonder why the union is so powerful? if it were up to you they'd all make 10 bucks an hour and the city would have all of 500 officers for a population of 540,000 and 600+ square miles that need policing...


edit: I'd also like to see specifics on that pay rate average of 78k/yr
I know a close family member on the force, been on for a couple years and is making about 50k, working the streets...50k isn't enough for what he goes through day in and day out.

78k seems a bit high since the LT's I know have base salaries of somewhere in the mid/upper 70s. I wonder if that includes extra job pay...if it does it is important to note that extra jobs DO NOT cost the city money, the entity requesting the officers pay for them...

It's funny you state" they spend their time running from call to call, and use any spare time doing REQUIRED paper work" (WHICH THEY HATE) excuse my ignorance, but isn't that their job.

RC,
I believe that he was referring to the fact that they spend less time patrolling nowadays and more time mired in endless paperwork. Even within the FD we spend hours on the computer entering data and information every shift which didn't used to be the norm. It's all become part of the job but has taken away from other things that could have been done.

Gotta love a good debate....
Here's the latest story from the Tulsa World (http://www.tulsaworld.com/news/article.aspx?subjectid=16&articleid=20091221_11_A1_Alittl357314), and also a helpful chart showing comparison cities for pay:
http://www.tulsaworld.com//articleimages/2009/A4policepay1221.jpg

So here's my new question: are these cities good comps for OKC and Tulsa when you weigh in cost of living and per capita income?

What immediately jumps out on the left chart is that the payscale in Dallas is remarkably similar to that of Tulsa...I know first hand the cost of living in dallas is way, way higher, obviously. Amazing.

Gotta love a good debate....
Here's the latest story from the Tulsa World (http://www.tulsaworld.com/news/article.aspx?subjectid=16&articleid=20091221_11_A1_Alittl357314), and also a helpful chart showing comparison cities for pay:
http://www.tulsaworld.com//articleimages/2009/A4policepay1221.jpg

So here's my new question: are these cities good comps for OKC and Tulsa when you weigh in cost of living and per capita income?

Wow, best place to be a police officer is Austin, 82k a year max! lol

So how bad is crime in Omaha? I don't remember seeing them on COPS.

If The Oklahoman were to do its own examination of public safety costs, union issues, etc., what questions would you like to see asked? And Andy, others, this is for you too.

Steve,
Good post on the comparison cities, many of these are used in the 10 city average. Funny you should mention an examination (questions) of PS costs and union issue- I'm sure there are several that could be asked and I'll post a few of my thoughts later.

Gotta love a good debate....
Here's the latest story from the Tulsa World (http://www.tulsaworld.com/news/article.aspx?subjectid=16&articleid=20091221_11_A1_Alittl357314), and also a helpful chart showing comparison cities for pay:
http://www.tulsaworld.com//articleimages/2009/A4policepay1221.jpg

So here's my new question: are these cities good comps for OKC and Tulsa when you weigh in cost of living and per capita income?

The funny thing is that this is just the beginning..this chart only shows salaries. Once you factor in the benefits package, OKC rises to the top of this list in OUR region (so that at least tops Austin) with OKC Police making an average of $78k a year. Again, that's including their incredible benefits package.

I wish we paid fire fighters more than we pay police officers because those are the ones who truly have the hard jobs.

If The Oklahoman were to do its own examination of public safety costs, union issues, etc., what questions would you like to see asked? And Andy, others, this is for you too.Thanks Steve, I'm glad you ask. I'll start my list tonight, and get back with you.

If the Oklahoman does in fact conduct an examination, I hope they compare apples to apples, as well as Labor vs. Management. Public Safety is not just Police and Fire. I have made mention of this several times. Lets compare strictly Personal Services expenditures and leave out the cost of tools and equipment, and capital expenditures.

When it comes to "Public Safety" ie; Police and Fire, there is something I found out years ago about local Administrators and Elected Officials. When talking about P.S./P&F, and depending on who they are talking to, they like to do one of two things. They brag about their support, committment, and level of funding, or they bitch, whine, and complain about how much it cost.

The bean counters can do really neat things with figures, I found that out as well.

The bean counters can do really neat things with figures, I found that out as well.

With respect andy, so too can folks who are not bean counters. I for one can't imagine an in depth look at Public Safety that exclude the costs of tools of the trade.

Perhaps OKC gets max bang for the buck, perhaps not. But if the topic is off limits for review, how can one know whether to back labor or management when it comes to the unavoidable issue of needs vs. wants vs. available budget.

Commenting for myself only, and conceding OKC is not my town, the cancellation of a few engines right after MAPs ticks me off, if that mainly happened to reallocate funds to cover Cox Center improvements for hockey, and it looks like it did.

On the other hand, maybe what was in the pipeline wasn't the only game in town on updating equipment.

I think if P/S is going to try to hold feet to heat re needs for personnel, wags, bennies, etc., all of P/S ought to be on the review table.

Just me.

What immediately jumps out on the left chart is that the payscale in Dallas is remarkably similar to that of Tulsa...I know first hand the cost of living in dallas is way, way higher, obviously. Amazing.

Yeah - and how does the Dallas cost of living compare to OKC - if you were to use that line of thinking, then OKC way overpays or Dallas way underpays.

Wel in that case Dallas underpays. I can tell you from personal experience that while DFW in general has a similar cost of living, the city of Dallas itself is on the high end when it comes to COL in Texas. I guess a lot of those beginning officers can live outside the city, but you have to factor in traffic and commuting costs.

With respect andy, so too can folks who are not bean counters. I for one can't imagine an in depth look at Public Safety that exclude the costs of tools of the trade.

Perhaps OKC gets max bang for the buck, perhaps not. But if the topic is off limits for review, how can one know whether to back labor or management when it comes to the unavoidable issue of needs vs. wants vs. available budget.

Commenting for myself only, and conceding OKC is not my town, the cancellation of a few engines right after MAPs ticks me off, if that mainly happened to reallocate funds to cover Cox Center improvements for hockey, and it looks like it did.

On the other hand, maybe what was in the pipeline wasn't the only game in town on updating equipment.

I think if P/S is going to try to hold feet to heat re needs for personnel, wags, bennies, etc., all of P/S ought to be on the review table.

Just me.Thats fine, and I agree, put everything on the table. However, I would still like to see a separate wage and benefit comparision between Labor and Management. There are more employees classified Management than there are Fire personnel, and their benefits aint to shabby, of course they never speak of them in public.

It's funny you state" they spend their time running from call to call, anduse any spare time doing paper work" excuse my ignorance, but isn't that their job.

It is, the poiint is most of them aren't traffic jocks. They're super busy and not overstaffed in the least.

RC,
I believe that he was referring to the fact that they spend less time patrolling nowadays and more time mired in endless paperwork. Even within the FD we spend hours on the computer entering data and information every shift which didn't used to be the norm. It's all become part of the job but has taken away from other things that could have been done.

Bingo

The funny thing is that this is just the beginning..this chart only shows salaries. Once you factor in the benefits package, OKC rises to the top of this list in OUR region (so that at least tops Austin) with OKC Police making an average of $78k a year. Again, that's including their incredible benefits package.

I wish we paid fire fighters more than we pay police officers because those are the ones who truly have the hard jobs.

I would like a link to that, most police departments have generous benfits packages, they have to in order to keep and attract quality candidates.

78k/yr including benefits is about like any other job that pays 50 or 55k/yr. Doesn't seem out of the ordinary to me.

I guess I just have a very liberal perspective when it comes to law enforcement and all that crap. I see a state that is socially politically and economically in shambles. Here in Oklahoma we have the nation's highest incarceration rate for women. Is that something to be proud of? Our law enforcement seems very proud of it, and the whole time, they're bitchin for a bigger and better jail to stick all those nasty hos in.

Minnesota has the nation's lowest incarceration rate for women. They're also the most educated state in the nation and spend a lot less on corrections and law enforcement. Correlation maybe? Are Oklahoma women any trashier than Minnesota women? Absolutely not. We are the ones doing this to our people. Minnesota has drug courts, deferred sentencing, basically they will never jail anyone for a nonviolent crime, and so on. Here in Oklahoma we gave a woman in Payne County 40 years for writing her 3rd bogus check at Wally World. That's a worse sentence than ruthless Soviet judges gave convicted Nazi generals at Nuremburg. What in the hell are we thinking in Oklahoma? When you think people are just so trashy you've gotta lock em up as fast as you can, you know what, suddenly they become that trashy.

The thing about public safety is that it's very basic. No amount of police will ever be able to protect you from being murdered because the majority of violent crimes occur between people who know each other, and if they're going to kill you, they are going to kill you. If we outlaw guns and take away the 2nd Amendment, they will use a different kind of weapon. That's just the way it is. In fact it's the opposite way around because when you start giving people badges, you're giving a lot of power to people who don't always deserve it. That power is abused. That goes against everything this country was supposed to be founded on -- that there should be a limited number of authorities you have to answer to. What is the job of a cop? Basically to tell you what you can't do. How does that keep you safe -- ever?

Cops COULD be doing good work in dealing with gangs and helping clean up bad streets, but too often I see them sitting on the side of the road monitoring traffic. I definitely don't see that happening as often up in Calgary. But here we've hiked up how expensive a traffic citation is and that's yet another extremely lucrative way for the police dept to fork in the cash. Corruption at its worst. It's not even like they need the extra cash because they're sticking it to us everywhere else, too. They have a dedicated revenue source from the sales tax. They're getting over half of the general obligation fund. Plus all of the state and federal grants they're also getting. Then there's the completely separate county sheriff's dept. It's just ridiculous. We actually think having multiple police depts and tons of over-paid cops is actually going to keep us safe. Ridiculous. That's the only way I can put it.

Meanwhile a cycle of poverty is deeply entrenched in bad parts of OKC and across Oklahoma towns. People are growing up in families who have never gone to college, they probably won't go to college, and we won't be able to advance our state and attract better jobs because Oklahoma will continue to be at the bottom of the barrel education-wise. Why is nobody more concerned about that? Seriously. Ridiculous.

I guess I just have a very liberal perspective when it comes to law enforcement and all that crap. I see a state that is socially politically and economically in shambles. Here in Oklahoma we have the nation's highest incarceration rate for women. Is that something to be proud of? Our law enforcement seems very proud of it, and the whole time, they're bitchin for a bigger and better jail to stick all those nasty hos in.

Minnesota has the nation's lowest incarceration rate for women. They're also the most educated state in the nation and spend a lot less on corrections and law enforcement. Correlation maybe? Are Oklahoma women any trashier than Minnesota women? Absolutely not. We are the ones doing this to our people. Minnesota has drug courts, deferred sentencing, basically they will never jail anyone for a nonviolent crime, and so on. Here in Oklahoma we gave a woman in Payne County 40 years for writing her 3rd bogus check at Wally World. That's a worse sentence than ruthless Soviet judges gave convicted Nazi generals at Nuremburg. What in the hell are we thinking in Oklahoma? When you think people are just so trashy you've gotta lock em up as fast as you can, you know what, suddenly they become that trashy.



A major reason why so many women are in prison in Oklahoma is because the amount in which writing a bogus check becomes a felony is set lower than in most other states. A woman who seems to be making it a habit to write bogus checks needs off the street, but not for as long as 40 years. Also a lot of Oklahoma women get in trouble with their boyfriends over drugs.

A reflection of how unsupportive conservatives can get in regards to education in Okahoma, Sally Kern wants to forbid the state from having to equal the donations of rich donors when they request it. Why make the rich go away to to some other state to support some other college?

It is, the poiint is most of them aren't traffic jocks. They're super busy and not overstaffed in the least.

I hear the same complaint from my Mail Man, paper man, barber, grocery store clerck, department store clerk, tire reapir man @ Hibdon, Pastor, Nurse taking care of my sick grand father, Doctor taking care of my sick grand father, school teacher daughter, baggage man @ airport, ticket taker @ airport, I stopped today for lunch at Subway, the first thing said to me (sorry for the wait, we are so short handed.
Point being, instead of constant complaining about being under staffed or under equipped, maybe for once they could/should count their blessings that they have a J--O--B.

I guess I just have a very liberal perspective when it comes to law enforcement and all that crap. I see a state that is socially politically and economically in shambles. Here in Oklahoma we have the nation's highest incarceration rate for women. Is that something to be proud of? Our law enforcement seems very proud of it, and the whole time, they're bitchin for a bigger and better jail to stick all those nasty hos in.

Minnesota has the nation's lowest incarceration rate for women. They're also the most educated state in the nation and spend a lot less on corrections and law enforcement. Correlation maybe? Are Oklahoma women any trashier than Minnesota women? Absolutely not. We are the ones doing this to our people. Minnesota has drug courts, deferred sentencing, basically they will never jail anyone for a nonviolent crime, and so on. Here in Oklahoma we gave a woman in Payne County 40 years for writing her 3rd bogus check at Wally World. That's a worse sentence than ruthless Soviet judges gave convicted Nazi generals at Nuremburg. What in the hell are we thinking in Oklahoma? When you think people are just so trashy you've gotta lock em up as fast as you can, you know what, suddenly they become that trashy.

The thing about public safety is that it's very basic. No amount of police will ever be able to protect you from being murdered because the majority of violent crimes occur between people who know each other, and if they're going to kill you, they are going to kill you. If we outlaw guns and take away the 2nd Amendment, they will use a different kind of weapon. That's just the way it is. In fact it's the opposite way around because when you start giving people badges, you're giving a lot of power to people who don't always deserve it. That power is abused. That goes against everything this country was supposed to be founded on -- that there should be a limited number of authorities you have to answer to. What is the job of a cop? Basically to tell you what you can't do. How does that keep you safe -- ever?

Cops COULD be doing good work in dealing with gangs and helping clean up bad streets, but too often I see them sitting on the side of the road monitoring traffic. I definitely don't see that happening as often up in Calgary. But here we've hiked up how expensive a traffic citation is and that's yet another extremely lucrative way for the police dept to fork in the cash. Corruption at its worst. It's not even like they need the extra cash because they're sticking it to us everywhere else, too. They have a dedicated revenue source from the sales tax. They're getting over half of the general obligation fund. Plus all of the state and federal grants they're also getting. Then there's the completely separate county sheriff's dept. It's just ridiculous. We actually think having multiple police depts and tons of over-paid cops is actually going to keep us safe. Ridiculous. That's the only way I can put it.

Meanwhile a cycle of poverty is deeply entrenched in bad parts of OKC and across Oklahoma towns. People are growing up in families who have never gone to college, they probably won't go to college, and we won't be able to advance our state and attract better jobs because Oklahoma will continue to be at the bottom of the barrel education-wise. Why is nobody more concerned about that? Seriously. Ridiculous.

Now this is a pretty solid post, I can work with this :)

Law enforcement enforces the laws on the books as mandated by the state, don't blame them for crappy laws, bragging about proper enforcement seems ok since that is their function.

I think there is definately a correlation between education and crime. Most would probably agree, but its a bit dubious to expect lack of law enforcement to fix a lack of education. Which isn't what you're advocating but it is what you're implying through your posts. You can't fix education by no longer enforcing laws.

I don't care about incarceration rates for various sexes or races, if you commit a crime you do the time, if the time is too much fix the laws. Is there a judicial component as you indicate? Absolutely there is and there are definately problems with sentencing in this state from too lenient to too harsh, it falls on both sides here in Oklahoma. Another situation that may be helped or fixed if the legislature would do their job. A lot of policing is about a deterrent and threat of enforcement. You're correct a lot of murders happen from people you know and a lot of them are random acts of violence. Proper law enforcement helps and at the very least helps catch the criminals to prevent such an act from happening again. Is it perfect? Not a chance in hell, but thats part of life I guess...

You see a couple cops at the side of the road doing traffic enforcement and you somehow think this is what they do with their time and that couldn't be further from the truth. I'll ask a few friends on OCPD how much of their man power is devoted to traffic duty. I would guess its somewhere around 5% but I dont know that for sure, i'll have to ask. Again cops aren't overpaid, you can think they are, but I dont want just anyone being a cop, I want people with a good head on their shoulders and the ability to think critically in high pressure situations. You can't get most burger flippers at McDonalds to function in that situation. Cops in OKC are fairly well compensated but I would say they probably deserve even more pay for what they do on a regular basis. They deal with the scum of the earth, the lowest of the low day in and day out, they sign up to protect you and I and help us when our asses are in a pinch. Cops have major issues that go with the job, higher suicide rates, massive divorce rates and a host of other issues that translate into lackluster personal life due to the affects of the job. Ensuring they are compensated fairly and live in a modest home seems completely reasonable to me.

Poverty and policing are completely seperate issues, you seem frankly, to have a problem with authority or cops or are upset because they make more money than you? (Not intended to be a jab, I have no clue what you make but you seem very anti cop and are holding them accountable for all kinds of things cops themselves and the department as a whole have zero control over.) Cops do a job necessary for our a communities, an ugly job that requires fortitude and putting yourself in situations time and again that you and I wont go through EVER.

Education in this state is a big problem, its not taken seriously and for a long time neither was policing. I am glad at least one area of public service (well fire as well) is actually treating the employees with respect and compensating them fairly. If you want to talk about education lets talk about it, because I agree its terrible in this state, but don't blame it on OCPD or TPD, that is just silly!

I hear the same complaint from my Mail Man, paper man, barber, grocery store clerck, department store clerk, tire reapir man @ Hibdon, Pastor, Nurse taking care of my sick grand father, Doctor taking care of my sick grand father, school teacher daughter, baggage man @ airport, ticket taker @ airport, I stopped today for lunch at Subway, the first thing said to me (sorry for the wait, we are so short handed.
Point being, instead of constant complaining about being under staffed or under equipped, maybe for once they could/should count their blessings that they have a J--O--B.

Sure and I'm shorthanded at my job, but I'm not getting shot at, i'm not cleaning up blood, spit and vomit from people trying to kill other people or trying to kill me. The point was (and it was obvious if you were paying attention) was the vast majority of cops aren't sitting in their cars looking for speeders. I expect them to be busy and I expect them to be compensated appropriately based on the risk their job entails.

Sure and I'm shorthanded at my job, but I'm not getting shot at, i'm not cleaning up blood, spit and vomit from people trying to kill other people or trying to kill me. The point was (and it was obvious if you were paying attention) was the vast majority of cops aren't sitting in their cars looking for speeders. I expect them to be busy and I expect them to be compensated appropriately based on the risk their job entails.

I've read several people comment about how busy the Police are, and they are VERY WELL compensated for the job they do, SO YOUR POINT IS?

apparently you need to pay attention.

I hear the same complaint from my Mail Man, paper man, barber, grocery store clerck, department store clerk, tire reapir man @ Hibdon, Pastor, Nurse taking care of my sick grand father, Doctor taking care of my sick grand father, school teacher daughter, baggage man @ airport, ticket taker @ airport, I stopped today for lunch at Subway, the first thing said to me (sorry for the wait, we are so short handed.
Point being, instead of constant complaining about being under staffed or under equipped, maybe for once they could/should count their blessings that they have a J--O--B.

C'mon RC you can't compare apples to oranges.

Your contrast can end in fact with the point that they are both jobs.

Life, (and not just for the public, but at times also for the PS worker), depends on staffing. There are national standards for safety that have to be met just to open the doors.

No one is going to say that at every moment of every day a PS employee's life is in danger, but it is reasonable to say that at any moment, it could be.

I don't think there is a PS worker around who is not grateful for their job, as anyone with any sense should be in these trying times. I think that it is unfair to claim that PS should take cuts to personnel when it could affect their returning home at the end of shift, or worse, jeopordize the lives that pay their salaries.

And to equipment, it is undeniable that emergency equipment is abused. Frequently cop cars are used to subdue escaping criminals, firetrucks go full bore up to 20 times a day in some parts of the city "hard-breaking" at every light. Stuff run this hard is going to break well ahead of its proposed time. Couple that with low handed service departments that cannot fix stuff quickly because they also haven't the manpower and bad spirals to worse really fast.

[/COLOR]

I've read several people comment about how busy the Police are, and they are VERY WELL compensated for the job they do, SO YOUR POINT IS?

apparently you need to pay attention.

they're very well compensated in YOUR view, as I already stated, I think they should make more money...to do the work they do and put up with the **** they put up with they need to be treated fairly. I thnk they are treated and compensated fairly but I dont think its high enough.

I'm the one not paying attention? You're the one comparing police to subway workers and postal workers :rofl:

C'mon RC you can't compare apples to oranges.

Your contrast can end in fact with the point that they are both jobs.

Life, (and not just for the public, but at times also for the PS worker), depends on staffing. There are national standards for safety that have to be met just to open the doors.

No one is going to say that at every moment of every day a PS employee's life is in danger, but it is reasonable to say that at any moment, it could be.

I don't think there is a PS worker around who is not grateful for their job, as anyone with any sense should be in these trying times. I think that it is unfair to claim that PS should take cuts to personnel when it could affect their returning home at the end of shift, or worse, jeopordize the lives that pay their salaries.

And to equipment, it is undeniable that emergency equipment is abused. Frequently cop cars are used to subdue escaping criminals, firetrucks go full bore up to 20 times a day in some parts of the city "hard-breaking" at every light. Stuff run this hard is going to break well ahead of its proposed time. Couple that with low handed service departments that cannot fix stuff quickly because they also haven't the manpower and bad spirals to worse really fast.

My point was that everyone, no matter what position they hold is expected to do more with less, all of us at one time or another have to SUCK IT UP, STOP WHINING AND DO YOUR JOB.

C'mon RC you can't compare apples to oranges.

Your contrast can end in fact with the point that they are both jobs.

Life, (and not just for the public, but at times also for the PS worker), depends on staffing. There are national standards for safety that have to be met just to open the doors.

No one is going to say that at every moment of every day a PS employee's life is in danger, but it is reasonable to say that at any moment, it could be.

I don't think there is a PS worker around who is not grateful for their job, as anyone with any sense should be in these trying times. I think that it is unfair to claim that PS should take cuts to personnel when it could affect their returning home at the end of shift, or worse, jeopordize the lives that pay their salaries.

And to equipment, it is undeniable that emergency equipment is abused. Frequently cop cars are used to subdue escaping criminals, firetrucks go full bore up to 20 times a day in some parts of the city "hard-breaking" at every light. Stuff run this hard is going to break well ahead of its proposed time. Couple that with low handed service departments that cannot fix stuff quickly because they also haven't the manpower and bad spirals to worse really fast.

Are you a Union Officer or just a member, it's plain to see your reading from a script.

My point was that everyone, no matter what position they hold is expected to do more with less, all of us at one time or another have to SUCK IT UP, STOP WHINING AND DO YOUR JOB.

Yup you're exactly right, and the cops do their job and do it too well according to Spartan.

They do their job well and they deal with being understaffed just like the rest of us. The union is there to represent the officers, I dont like the union either, but the cops do their job the union is the one getting their voice on tv and "whining" as you put it. When really its doing what the union is supposed to do and look out for the best interests of the officers...

Are you a Union Officer or just a member, it's plain to see your reading from a script.

wow...

where's Spartan? I'd like to talk to someone interested in having a real conversation.

My point was that everyone, no matter what position they hold is expected to do more with less, all of us at one time or another have to SUCK IT UP, STOP WHINING AND DO YOUR JOB.

You've not seen a decrease in services have you? I think that the current crisis that affects this nation and OKC is only shedding light on issues against which the PS sector has fought for years.

We have been doing more with less for decades. The very issuance of a budget connotes cutbacks, one though, would hope for reasonable requests. It is mentioned that we want newer "toys," that no amount of manpower will assuage the voracious unions as they demand ever more personnel and then that aforementioned manpower is only desired because unions want more membership dollars. This is bogus.

Now that the public is in effect having to do more with less it compounds PS position as they cannot effectively do with any less.

Reasonably one can justify the public's notion that we are "whining," because they are being hit hard at this point in history, but they know not of the state of things as developed over the course of numerous years of attrition and budgetary cuts. We are mostly threadbare. Cuts to manpower, or cuts to equipment such as those budgeted by the recently revoked use tax jeopordize the serviceability of equipment and the safety of men and women.

Are you a Union Officer or just a member, it's plain to see your reading from a script.


I really don't see that your passion for dialog is more significant than mine. I pay dues, I go to meetings, I think freely. Just argue the points, not the men behind them. Keep it above the belt man, just hit the target in front of you, even if it stings you back now and again.

My point was that everyone, no matter what position they hold is expected to do more with less, all of us at one time or another have to SUCK IT UP, STOP WHINING AND DO YOUR JOB.

Come on RC, if you're going to get the full therapeutic effect of your anti-union rants you might have to tell us what happened. Did you try to fire someone at the Parks Dept. and their union prevented you from doing so? Is that why you keep coming back with the anti-union diatribes every time police or fire is mentioned? Maybe that's what keeps you from seeing that "doing more with less" in your old dept. simply meant that something wasn't going to get mowed on time. In the police or fire dept. it could mean the difference in going home uninjured or going home at all. It could also affect the outcome for the people they are called to help. Sorry, I know to your anti-union tuned ears this just sounds like whining, but you really do need to compare apples to apples.

Now this is a pretty solid post, I can work with this :)

Law enforcement enforces the laws on the books as mandated by the state, don't blame them for crappy laws, bragging about proper enforcement seems ok since that is their function.

I think there is definately a correlation between education and crime. Most would probably agree, but its a bit dubious to expect lack of law enforcement to fix a lack of education. Which isn't what you're advocating but it is what you're implying through your posts. You can't fix education by no longer enforcing laws.

I don't care about incarceration rates for various sexes or races, if you commit a crime you do the time, if the time is too much fix the laws. Is there a judicial component as you indicate? Absolutely there is and there are definately problems with sentencing in this state from too lenient to too harsh, it falls on both sides here in Oklahoma. Another situation that may be helped or fixed if the legislature would do their job. A lot of policing is about a deterrent and threat of enforcement. You're correct a lot of murders happen from people you know and a lot of them are random acts of violence. Proper law enforcement helps and at the very least helps catch the criminals to prevent such an act from happening again. Is it perfect? Not a chance in hell, but thats part of life I guess...

You see a couple cops at the side of the road doing traffic enforcement and you somehow think this is what they do with their time and that couldn't be further from the truth. I'll ask a few friends on OCPD how much of their man power is devoted to traffic duty. I would guess its somewhere around 5% but I dont know that for sure, i'll have to ask. Again cops aren't overpaid, you can think they are, but I dont want just anyone being a cop, I want people with a good head on their shoulders and the ability to think critically in high pressure situations. You can't get most burger flippers at McDonalds to function in that situation. Cops in OKC are fairly well compensated but I would say they probably deserve even more pay for what they do on a regular basis. They deal with the scum of the earth, the lowest of the low day in and day out, they sign up to protect you and I and help us when our asses are in a pinch. Cops have major issues that go with the job, higher suicide rates, massive divorce rates and a host of other issues that translate into lackluster personal life due to the affects of the job. Ensuring they are compensated fairly and live in a modest home seems completely reasonable to me.

Poverty and policing are completely seperate issues, you seem frankly, to have a problem with authority or cops or are upset because they make more money than you? (Not intended to be a jab, I have no clue what you make but you seem very anti cop and are holding them accountable for all kinds of things cops themselves and the department as a whole have zero control over.) Cops do a job necessary for our a communities, an ugly job that requires fortitude and putting yourself in situations time and again that you and I wont go through EVER.

Education in this state is a big problem, its not taken seriously and for a long time neither was policing. I am glad at least one area of public service (well fire as well) is actually treating the employees with respect and compensating them fairly. If you want to talk about education lets talk about it, because I agree its terrible in this state, but don't blame it on OCPD or TPD, that is just silly!

The reality is that random acts of violence, the only thing that OCPD and TPD can really protect us from, simply do not occur. I wasn't able to fetch any statistics on Oklahoma specifically, but I was able to find some good numbers nonetheless that apply to the whole nation.

12 Facts About Murder - Windows Live (http://kcorax.spaces.live.com/Blog/cns!5016D4F809AB281D!203.entry)

For women, 9% of women murders were done by a stranger, and for men that number is 16%. And by stranger, that just means that police were unable to determine a prior connection. Also statistically, violent crimes happen within people of the same demographic groups for the most part, too. So it's not like some white kids from the suburbs eatin at Bobo's Chicken on NE 23rd are incredibly at-risk. I love me some Bobo's Chicken.

I think that rationally anything the government does that is not educating the poor masses goes against education, because it eats up resources. Poor states have to have priorities, any priority that is not education has to be seen as anti-education. I know it sounds zero-sum and I don't mean it to be that way, but I think we're good on law enforcement. And I know I'll sound crazy for this, but I think we're good on roads..especially cable barriers that cost us 4 times as much as Missouri. I think we're good on college football stadiums and anything else that is not specifically targeted to bring more jobs to Oklahomans. Spending 4 times as much on cable barriers as MO or cracking down with the biggest baddest police force isn't creating opportunities in life for the people of this state. When people don't like the opportunities Oklahoma offers them they move elsewhere and that is when we as a state have failed. Look at all of the people fleeing Oklahoma to live in Texas. We have failed as a state as long as that continues, as long as young Oklahomans don't have the same opportunity in their home state as other Americans have.

Honestly when I graduate next year with my M.Arch I don't see myself settling down in Oklahoma. Of course OK would be my first choice, but I don't know if I would get any decent job offers. Going to school up in Calgary, and being in an environmental design-specific program, I know I could get decent job offers on the west coast, but I don't really like the west coast. It's more likely that I'll settle down in Denver or Chicago if I can't find any positions in OKC or even Tulsa. So in all likelihood, you can add me to the group of people who aren't finding the opportunities they want in Oklahoma.

I also have a problem with the idea that cops don't make the rules so don't blame them for the rules, they just enforce them. I think that's a pretty negative and helpless outlook on some of our biggest problems as a state. Obviously cops are given the ultimate say on who gets in trouble for what because they write the citation in the first place. After they've written the citation, there is virtually no way to get off for anything..even if it's a parking ticket for your car that the bumper was hanging over the edge of the parking space. You can't say, "Judge he's a mean jerk who just likes to harass us little people," because the judge would just say, "yeah he's a mean jerk, that's his job, and you're guilty now pay up." The root of the problem is the enforcement, not sentencing.

And honestly we should all admit that in a quasi-civilized society (we still have a ways to catch up to some European countries) the only real reason for policing is to harass the people that annoy us. We're annoyed that people just exist. Anyone who doesn't speak English 100% of the time, anyone who dresses a way we don't like, and so on .. we just wish they wouldn't exist. Put 'em behind bars for all we car. The purpose of our beefed up law enforcement is really just to put the fear o' God into those gosh darned hoodlums. That's my theory at least, and I'm sticking with it..

Chicago is a fine choice, I myself will be moving there. haha

but back to the point - yes public safety is a risky job and should be compensated, BUT that said compensation should be commensurate for quality of work done and not just a pity copout for the people doing the work.

Every job has a payscale and if people sign up for that said job, then you have little right to sit and complain about the payscale, particularly when there are opportunities to receive pay without even working or fleece the system.

Now don't get me wrong, I highly respect and admire police officers and firefighters - but for one of them to expect to be compensated in a similar manner to someone who has a Master's degree and runs a corporate function - it just doesn't make sense now does it?

OKC's force in my opinion is very well compensated, and it was horrible taste for the union officials to come out against MAPS. I think almost every person on this forum could admit that. Irregardless of the side you take or who you are, MAPS was not the time for the city employees to come out against potential civic progress. It's sort of an oxymoron in fact.

Now, coming out against corruption - that's another thing. but there is a venue for that too, and it is ELECTIONS or at least voting periods for specific relevant issues.

One good thing did come down from all of that, however - in that it brought many people out to be involved with the city who otherwise would still sit on the couch and complain. BUT, I think you need to be an informed person and use the brain upstairs in order to determine the true issues vs. smokescreen.

Again - there is no way a firefighter or police officer could expect to have the same compensation package as a business person holding a graduate degree. Being an officer is one of the worst jobs a person can have (due to the safety factor) BUT everybody knows this and therefore it should be assumed that compensation packages would be commensurate with what the city could afford (just as it is for all other city jobs, by the way).

I hope the conversation can remain civil and hopefully people can consider the global prospective (and not just their own personal bias).

Chicago is a fine choice, I myself will be moving there. haha

but back to the point - yes public safety is a risky job and should be compensated, BUT that said compensation should be commensurate for quality of work done and not just a pity copout for the people doing the work.

Every job has a payscale and if people sign up for that said job, then you have little right to sit and complain about the payscale, particularly when there are opportunities to receive pay without even working or fleece the system.

Now don't get me wrong, I highly respect and admire police officers and firefighters - but for one of them to expect to be compensated in a similar manner to someone who has a Master's degree and runs a corporate function - it just doesn't make sense now does it?

OKC's force in my opinion is very well compensated, and it was horrible taste for the union officials to come out against MAPS. I think almost every person on this forum could admit that. Irregardless of the side you take or who you are, MAPS was not the time for the city employees to come out against potential civic progress. It's sort of an oxymoron in fact.

Now, coming out against corruption - that's another thing. but there is a venue for that too, and it is ELECTIONS or at least voting periods for specific relevant issues.

One good thing did come down from all of that, however - in that it brought many people out to be involved with the city who otherwise would still sit on the couch and complain. BUT, I think you need to be an informed person and use the brain upstairs in order to determine the true issues vs. smokescreen.

Again - there is no way a firefighter or police officer could expect to have the same compensation package as a business person holding a graduate degree. Being an officer is one of the worst jobs a person can have (due to the safety factor) BUT everybody knows this and therefore it should be assumed that compensation packages would be commensurate with what the city could afford (just as it is for all other city jobs, by the way).

I hope the conversation can remain civil and hopefully people can consider the global prospective (and not just their own personal bias).


I can appreciate your point of view.

Without awakening the sleeping giant which is MIII let me just add that I really don't want the points that I've made on this thread to seem like I think I deserve more. As an employee of PS I feel that the line of work I chose and my compensation fit very well. I'll not sacrifice safety, mine or yours, for any reason.

Now, that being said, come time for negotiations, I would expect compensation to be on the table because we like everyone else deserve raises time and again and our unions are very fair in negotiating terms with our employer.

We have not been formally degreed like a lot of those who manage the city have. I would argue that the amount of overall schooling/training that is required of us if all tallied, would amount to a substantial degree though. We are in effect, because of the dynamics of these jobs, career students. This is not to brag, or to edify our importance, I would just like to make that point.

The reality is that random acts of violence, the only thing that OCPD and TPD can really protect us from, simply do not occur. I wasn't able to fetch any statistics on Oklahoma specifically, but I was able to find some good numbers nonetheless that apply to the whole nation.

12 Facts About Murder - Windows Live (http://kcorax.spaces.live.com/Blog/cns!5016D4F809AB281D!203.entry)

For women, 9% of women murders were done by a stranger, and for men that number is 16%. And by stranger, that just means that police were unable to determine a prior connection. Also statistically, violent crimes happen within people of the same demographic groups for the most part, too. So it's not like some white kids from the suburbs eatin at Bobo's Chicken on NE 23rd are incredibly at-risk. I love me some Bobo's Chicken.

I think that rationally anything the government does that is not educating the poor masses goes against education, because it eats up resources. Poor states have to have priorities, any priority that is not education has to be seen as anti-education. I know it sounds zero-sum and I don't mean it to be that way, but I think we're good on law enforcement. And I know I'll sound crazy for this, but I think we're good on roads..especially cable barriers that cost us 4 times as much as Missouri. I think we're good on college football stadiums and anything else that is not specifically targeted to bring more jobs to Oklahomans. Spending 4 times as much on cable barriers as MO or cracking down with the biggest baddest police force isn't creating opportunities in life for the people of this state. When people don't like the opportunities Oklahoma offers them they move elsewhere and that is when we as a state have failed. Look at all of the people fleeing Oklahoma to live in Texas. We have failed as a state as long as that continues, as long as young Oklahomans don't have the same opportunity in their home state as other Americans have.

Honestly when I graduate next year with my M.Arch I don't see myself settling down in Oklahoma. Of course OK would be my first choice, but I don't know if I would get any decent job offers. Going to school up in Calgary, and being in an environmental design-specific program, I know I could get decent job offers on the west coast, but I don't really like the west coast. It's more likely that I'll settle down in Denver or Chicago if I can't find any positions in OKC or even Tulsa. So in all likelihood, you can add me to the group of people who aren't finding the opportunities they want in Oklahoma.

I also have a problem with the idea that cops don't make the rules so don't blame them for the rules, they just enforce them. I think that's a pretty negative and helpless outlook on some of our biggest problems as a state. Obviously cops are given the ultimate say on who gets in trouble for what because they write the citation in the first place. After they've written the citation, there is virtually no way to get off for anything..even if it's a parking ticket for your car that the bumper was hanging over the edge of the parking space. You can't say, "Judge he's a mean jerk who just likes to harass us little people," because the judge would just say, "yeah he's a mean jerk, that's his job, and you're guilty now pay up." The root of the problem is the enforcement, not sentencing.

And honestly we should all admit that in a quasi-civilized society (we still have a ways to catch up to some European countries) the only real reason for policing is to harass the people that annoy us. We're annoyed that people just exist. Anyone who doesn't speak English 100% of the time, anyone who dresses a way we don't like, and so on .. we just wish they wouldn't exist. Put 'em behind bars for all we car. The purpose of our beefed up law enforcement is really just to put the fear o' God into those gosh darned hoodlums. That's my theory at least, and I'm sticking with it..

Spartan you're raising some excellent points on prevention and how police departments do not do a lot to prevent murder. This is an assertion I would tend to agree with in totality but please keep in mind that any crimes that are prevented are not reported, why? Becasue I crime didn't occur, so there is an affect of having police out there, I guess the question that really hasn't been quantified is how substantial is that affect? I know in my criminal justice class they said it was pretty much impossible to quantify and you merely have people on both sides of the issue. You definately lean more towards the hands off approach because poeple that want to commit crimes will commit them, while I tend to agree with this overall, I do not necessarily think it is justification for downsize or cutting the compensation of officers.

Having said that, I think overall statistics and payrates of competing cities and the general market should help dictate wages. Since the city generally has qualified applicants, but not in overwhelming numbers I would tend to think from purely a non emotional standpoint the city is pretty well balanced with its compensation. But when i make it personal, ie my brother putting his ass on the line day in and day out, I do think they should be paid more...

You seriously think the PD would issue a ticket for you being 6 inches over a space? the only way I see that happening is on a night when parking is in short supply, most officers dont like wasting their own time on tickets...believe it or not traffic and ticket writing in general is hated by cops. A few do enjoy it however and unfortunately there are a few asshole cops as well, I can't make excuses for every exception you come up with, but considering I grew up with my dad a cop, I was around cops constantly, on duty, off duty...overall they're pretty good guys who care a lot about their community and do not want to be an asshole just because they can.

Education wont solve all of our problems, people have to be responsible, the state coudl quadruple the education budget and if we still ahve crap teachers teaching and parents unwilling ot take responsibility when little johnny fails a class it doesn't matter what you do or I do or anyone else, education will always be lacking. We do need to fix education funding in this state I will not disagree iwth you there.

I don't want to completely derail the thread but at some point i"d like to discuss 'civilized" society with you if you think europe is ahead of us...they're burning cars in the street in paris and rioting like crazy...

Also on the job front, shoot me a PM if you would, my employer is always on the lookout for people in environment science/management, etc...



Chicago is a fine choice, I myself will be moving there. haha

but back to the point - yes public safety is a risky job and should be compensated, BUT that said compensation should be commensurate for quality of work done and not just a pity copout for the people doing the work.

Every job has a payscale and if people sign up for that said job, then you have little right to sit and complain about the payscale, particularly when there are opportunities to receive pay without even working or fleece the system.

Now don't get me wrong, I highly respect and admire police officers and firefighters - but for one of them to expect to be compensated in a similar manner to someone who has a Master's degree and runs a corporate function - it just doesn't make sense now does it?

OKC's force in my opinion is very well compensated, and it was horrible taste for the union officials to come out against MAPS. I think almost every person on this forum could admit that. Irregardless of the side you take or who you are, MAPS was not the time for the city employees to come out against potential civic progress. It's sort of an oxymoron in fact.

Now, coming out against corruption - that's another thing. but there is a venue for that too, and it is ELECTIONS or at least voting periods for specific relevant issues.

One good thing did come down from all of that, however - in that it brought many people out to be involved with the city who otherwise would still sit on the couch and complain. BUT, I think you need to be an informed person and use the brain upstairs in order to determine the true issues vs. smokescreen.

Again - there is no way a firefighter or police officer could expect to have the same compensation package as a business person holding a graduate degree. Being an officer is one of the worst jobs a person can have (due to the safety factor) BUT everybody knows this and therefore it should be assumed that compensation packages would be commensurate with what the city could afford (just as it is for all other city jobs, by the way).

I hope the conversation can remain civil and hopefully people can consider the global prospective (and not just their own personal bias).

Hot Rod you bring up some good points, and you're right they sign up for the job...but so do our teachers, it doesn't mean we shouldn't strive to improve when/where we can.

As for the MBA thing, I have an MBA make a good living and I don't think it would bother me to have Sergeants or LT's making what I make, they are at that point, especially at LT/capt positions effectively running a business in a sense. They hve people working under them are responsible for a variety of tasks and goals along with numerous higher level budget items and reports.

I can appreciate your point of view.

Without awakening the sleeping giant which is MIII let me just add that I really don't want the points that I've made on this thread to seem like I think I deserve more. As an employee of PS I feel that the line of work I chose and my compensation fit very well. I'll not sacrifice safety, mine or yours, for any reason.

Now, that being said, come time for negotiations, I would expect compensation to be on the table because we like everyone else deserve raises time and again and our unions are very fair in negotiating terms with our employer.

We have not been formally degreed like a lot of those who manage the city have. I would argue that the amount of overall schooling/training that is required of us if all tallied, would amount to a substantial degree though. We are in effect, because of the dynamics of these jobs, career students. This is not to brag, or to edify our importance, I would just like to make that point.

You're exactly right, and a lot of folks on the PD do have degrees now.

[QUOTE=MGE1977;284524]I really don't see that your passion for dialog is more significant than mine. I pay dues, I go to meetings, I think freely. Just argue the points, not the men behind them. Keep it above the belt man, just hit the target in front of you, even if it stings you back now and again.[

Having dealt with Union employees, it's so easy to spot them

Come on RC, if you're going to get the full therapeutic effect of your anti-union rants you might have to tell us what happened. Did you try to fire someone at the Parks Dept. and their union prevented you from doing so? Is that why you keep coming back with the anti-union diatribes every time police or fire is mentioned? Maybe that's what keeps you from seeing that "doing more with less" in your old dept. simply meant that something wasn't going to get mowed on time. In the police or fire dept. it could mean the difference in going home uninjured or going home at all. It could also affect the outcome for the people they are called to help. Sorry, I know to your anti-union tuned ears this just sounds like whining, but you really do need to compare apples to apples.

I'm not anti-union, if it's a strong Union, one that it's members can fully support it themselves, I've never understood how/why the 3 Union Presidents were on City payroll.

I worked 27 years for OKC, the last 22 in management, I never fired anyone, I did, however, have 7 that fired themselves, of the 7, 6 fought for their jobs through AFSCME, 5 were upheld, 1 was re-instated w/reduction in pay.

Again, and hopefully for the last time, I'm not saying the Police/Fire or the rest of the employees don't deserve more pay and better equipment, but if the MONIES NOT THERE, the MONIES NOT THERE, and in the mean time, suck it up, be a man. stop whining, hit the time clock and do your J--O--B

[QUOTE=MGE1977;284524]I really don't see that your passion for dialog is more significant than mine. I pay dues, I go to meetings, I think freely. Just argue the points, not the men behind them. Keep it above the belt man, just hit the target in front of you, even if it stings you back now and again.[

Having dealt with Union employees, it's so easy to spot them


Yeah, you're right. I don't know what would have made me think that all your police and fire rantings come from some anti-union streak.:doh:

[QUOTE=rcjunkie;284583]


Yeah, you're right. I don't know what would have made me think you have an anti-union streak in you.:doh:


Well it's so easy to spot/understand "poor poor me, I need--I want--give me--give me--give me"
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