I propose that we henceforth start referring to one of these clusterf%ck projects as "The Project That Shall Not Be Named." You guys' call, but I think that one in particular is a particularly deserving candidate..

Without you OCURA, what would we possibly have to complain about on here?

Is that similiar to "the company that shall nor be named" on CNBC?

I have no idea what that is. We just get CNN and FOX in Canada.

I hate the Centennial. Well the mustard yellow. If it was brick, I would be happy. That yellow is nasty!

Voted for "The Hill at Bricktown" because it's such a horrid name* anyway and it's the biggest disaster of the bunch, by far.

*It's not in Bricktown and they completely flattened the hill that was there and it's just not creative at all.

Bricktown is simply The Project That Shall Not Be Patronized..that is, hoping that nobody spends money at Toby Keith's or Bass Pro. I agree that The Hill is the worst from a disaster standpoint.

While I hate the design, Lower Bricktown does have some good qualities (thought like I said, misguided in design), like some good restaurants, downtown's only movie theater, and some stores. The Hill has nothing redeeming. It is what looks like will be a perpetually unfinished disaster of suburbia-looking houses.

Bricktown is simply The Project That Shall Not Be Patronized..that is, hoping that nobody spends money at Toby Keith's or Bass Pro. I agree that The Hill is the worst from a disaster standpoint.

You know, Toby Keith invested a lot of money in his establishment downtown. I dont know if its his support of OU you don't like, his music or what, but I would far rather have his restaurant than some shleppy touristy dump like the Hard Rock or Chili's.

As far as Bass Pro, I don't hold Bass Pro at fault for the design of their building. The city is at fault for not requiring a more canal-centric design. I don't buy much of anythign there but its not because of the company.

In both cases, why NOT spend your money there? I'd much rather have these businesses open than sitting there empty and boarded up. Yeah, that'd look great!

In both cases, why NOT spend your money there? I'd much rather have these businesses open than sitting there empty and boarded up. Yeah, that'd look great!

I have, and will again, shop at BP. Sometimes they have what I want.
I don't hate their building and lot, nor blame them, near as much as the idiots who approved the ugly surface lot to the south of BP that crowds the canal far worse than the BP lot.

As for TKB&G, I don't go there, but only because I don't hear anyone raving over the food. There are plenty of other places which are suggested and raved about, thus a big name in the owner's list just isn't enough to eat there. I don't hate his music or his politics or the building or its location. It's actually a more attractive structure to me than the Sonic HQ across the way, even if it is not brick.

When I eat out, I expect great food. Once I start hearing that regularly about anyplace, it gets on the list. Although, if I have 3-4 solid favs in a particular category, it make take a while for a new place to get a try.

As for The Hill, I hope it gets finished. I used to sit there and listen to music and star gaze some eves before heading south to Norman. They ruined that for me, so I hope it turns into something.

kevinpate: give TKB&G a try. The food is very good. Chicken fried steaks are huge (but the gravy could be better). The steaks have been tender enough to cut with a fork. The Ribs have been fall-off-the-bone. The Half-chicken is also very good. Only appetizer I have had is the nachos but they are darn tasty. Pricing is moderately high but about average for a touristy place. Always end up with a huge doggy bag and not uncommon to get 1 or 2 more meals out of it. My only real complaint is they don't have the deep fried Twinkies like at the TK's in Vegas and their gift shop selection is very limited (again, compared to Vegas) but the place itself seems 2 or 3 times the size of the Vegas one. TKB&G It is one of the few reasons I ever go to Bricktown.

kevinpate: give TKB&G a try. The food is very good. Chicken fried steaks are huge (but the gravy could be better). The steaks have been tender enough to cut with a fork. The Ribs have been fall-off-the-bone. The Half-chicken is also very good. Only appetizer I have had is the nachos but they are darn tasty. Pricing is moderately high but about average for a touristy place. Always end up with a huge doggy bag and not uncommon to get 1 or 2 more meals out of it. My only real complaint is they don't have the deep fried Twinkies like at the TK's in Vegas and their gift shop selection is very limited (again, compared to Vegas) but the place itself seems 2 or 3 times the size of the Vegas one. TKB&G It is one of the few reasons I ever go to Bricktown.

I have to second that Larry. We ate there a few weeks ago and the food was really good. I had the meatloaf, which was different than anything I have had anywhere else, and thought it was above average. My wife had the ribs and she could pull the bones out without the meat ever leaving the table. I also thought the price was reasonable. My kids also liked the place.

Having finally seen it in person, Lower Bricktown doesn't bother me as much as it seems to bother some.

... (but the gravy could be better).

My point is made. Even someone chatting up the place invariably has a knock on something that is not unimportant.

Gravy is important, even if you aren't partaking of it at a particular meal.
Why? Because except when serving uncultured yankees and some folks from Nebraska, no chicken fry should ever reach a diner with anything but great gravy.

Gravy just ain't that difficult. So if it is lacking, in a place where the owner or at least his persona is known for the red of his neck and the size of his heart and down home nature, then likely as not there may be other serious shortcuts that are taken in the back of the house.

I can get awesomely great ribs, steaks, chicken fry, meatloaf, etc. etc., in numerous places in and near the metro. Or, I can go somewhere knowing their kitchen is a lace where the gravy, a truly important part of a signature meal for a country lad, "could be better."

I think I'll continue to enjoy the man's music and dine elsewhere.

Gravy's the whole point of the chicken fry. Otherwise, why would one eat a heart-attack on a plate? There must be something that makes it worth the risk.

I've been to Toby Keith's once. I got the chicken fried steak and it was awesome.

It's hard for me to get into eating in a restaurant..on a fake tailgate. I think when the hostess asks, "Is a fake tailgate alright?" is when it's time to get da hell outta dere..

And yes, I also wish he would stop supporting OU. He couldn't get in as a student, so he should be forced to be an OSU fan or something.

... He couldn't get in as a student, so he should be forced to be an OSU fan or something.

Nah, they let Boz play and they let Howard and John be head coaches fer cryin' out loud. Seems it would be kinda tough to justify not lettin TK yell yeeehawww from the sidelines. Besides, it ain't like he be the only white trash with money fan. Killer album, and title, by the by.

Fwiw, I too found the food at Toby's to be really, really excellent. And I LOVE Bass Pro Shops. It's pretty easy to remember that just ten years ago, they both didn't exist. There was only a field there. Lower Bricktown is Bricktown to me.

There's a field in the middle of downtown -- NW 4th and Broadway -- can we put a Kum n Go and a pawn shop there? After all, it's better than a field..

When it first came into being, I was very upset with Lower Bricktown, largely because of the architecture of the area and the inclusion of the Bass Pro (which I still think is something only a medium-tier city like an Arlington/Grapevine should be proud of); however, I have to say that the area is probably one of the most functional parts of Bricktown. Also, I kind of like Toby Keith's. The food is actually pretty good, and I like the fact that he's from here and decided to build one here instead of stopping with Vegas. So that's been enough to bump Lower Bricktown from the most infamous project slot in my mind.

I'm thinking The Hill deserves the dubious project award. It's ugly and may never get finished.

And I think the subject is a reference to the Harry Potter books and the bad guy who is so bad that when referring to him they simply call him 'he who shall not be named....' No Harry Potter fans in the thread?

Dismayed is correct. I guess that's too 2001 or something though..ha

It's hard for me to get into eating in a restaurant..on a fake tailgate. I think when the hostess asks, "Is a fake tailgate alright?" is when it's time to get da hell outta dere..

And yes, I also wish he would stop supporting OU. He couldn't get in as a student, so he should be forced to be an OSU fan or something.

They aren't "fake tailgates" (real tailgates from real trucks) and the "tailgates" are just a waiting area. They are NOT part of the booths or tables. Have you even been there? Seems I read recently you are in Canada?

My point is made. Even someone chatting up the place invariably has a knock on something that is not unimportant.

Gravy is important, even if you aren't partaking of it at a particular meal.
Why? Because except when serving uncultured yankees and some folks from Nebraska, no chicken fry should ever reach a diner with anything but great gravy.

Gravy just ain't that difficult. So if it is lacking, in a place where the owner or at least his persona is known for the red of his neck and the size of his heart and down home nature, then likely as not there may be other serious shortcuts that are taken in the back of the house.

I can get awesomely great ribs, steaks, chicken fry, meatloaf, etc. etc., in numerous places in and near the metro. Or, I can go somewhere knowing their kitchen is a lace where the gravy, a truly important part of a signature meal for a country lad, "could be better."

I think I'll continue to enjoy the man's music and dine elsewhere.

Reportedly, TK has eaten and approved every menu item, and can only presume most things are prepared to his taste. It isn't my favorite gravy as it is different than most but so is the meatloaf...not my thing but my mom loves it. Try the chicken fried yourself and then decide. It wasn't my favorite so I tried something different next time and loved it. No matter what place you go to, they do some things well and some things not so well. Give it a try or not, thats up to you (but if you go, avoid the typical busy times, especially weekends, unless crowds are your thing).

There's a field in the middle of downtown -- NW 4th and Broadway -- can we put a Kum n Go and a pawn shop there? After all, it's better than a field..

wow really.

and what is so wrong with bass pro. it is a place where people from out of town love to go and check out when they come to visit. its also a place where a lot of people like to go and shop for their outdoor/hunting/fishing needs.

There's a field in the middle of downtown -- NW 4th and Broadway -- can we put a Kum n Go and a pawn shop there? After all, it's better than a field..

The difference here is that he says he really enjoys Toby Keith's and Bass Pro in addition to them being better than a field. Unless you really think a pawn shop would be fantastic I don't think you can say the same for your reply.

Its fine that you dislike Lower Bricktown and Toby Keith's and Bass Pro, whatever the reasons. Giving a non-substance negative reply after every positive comment, however, doesn't come off well. Either honestly discuss real reasons why you dislike these establishments, or accept that not everyone agrees with you.

Anyway...

My wife and I go to Toby Keith's fairly often, but we only get one item: the cheese fries. They are so delicious and so large that we very rarely have room for an actual entree afterwards. If I do get something else, though, I get the chicken sandwich. Delicious.

It's an ego issue.

Well, since I share Spartan's disdain or 'dismay' for Bass Pro, I know at the time it went in I was kind of in shock that we decided to hitch our futuristic cosmopolitan ideas of what our downtown should be on a mass-market outdoors shop. I also have never been wild about the look of the structure or the surface parking. Emotionally, up until that moment I felt that OKC had a lot of opportunity to build up a downtown for the 21st Century. After that point I felt like we'd settled for less and basically fulfilled the stereotype. Seattle, Dallas, etc. would never put something like that in the heart of their downtown. It'd be out in the burbs. Maybe it was silly of me to mentally compare OKC to such cities. Perhaps our regional competitors really are Arlington, Grapevine, Springfield and the like.

...avoid the typical busy times, especially weekends, unless crowds are your thing).

I don't excel at much, but I am good at crowd dodging. Even preceding my older and frumpier days, I never much cottoned to crowds. Fortunately, there are enough choices in the metro, it's downright easy to enjoy quality meals in uncrowded surroundings.

Well, since I share Spartan's disdain or 'dismay' for Bass Pro, I know at the time it went in I was kind of in shock that we decided to hitch our futuristic cosmopolitan ideas of what our downtown should be on a mass-market outdoors shop. I also have never been wild about the look of the structure or the surface parking. Emotionally, up until that moment I felt that OKC had a lot of opportunity to build up a downtown for the 21st Century. After that point I felt like we'd settled for less and basically fulfilled the stereotype. Seattle, Dallas, etc. would never put something like that in the heart of their downtown. It'd be out in the burbs. Maybe it was silly of me to mentally compare OKC to such cities. Perhaps our regional competitors really are Arlington, Grapevine, Springfield and the like.

ONe has nothing to do with the other. With Bass Pro, OKC was attempting to help a business that was felt would attract throngs of visitors downtown. It would attract out of town tourists and dollars - thus translating to additional sales tax revenue for the city that could be rolled back into the area. The city was hoping Bass Pro might also help lure other retail businesses downtown where there is very little. More retail would equal more incentive for people to want to live downtown and give developers more incentive to build new homes in the downtown area. With downtown redevelopment and re-creation of a vibrant, self-sufficient urban core - its all a big wheel if it works. While I also don't like how they positioned Bass Pro in relation to the canal, it does draw a lot of folks from both in town and out of town.

As far as comparisons with Dallas or Seattle, there isn't a comparison. Dallas has 5 million people, truckloads of venture capital money and plenty of developers. However, don't think Dallas isn't having problems. They have a booming uptown area, but downtown still dies after dark. The West End is a fraction of what it once was and Deep Ellum is nearly dead. Seattle is unique, like San Francisco. Far less land, far more people and far more densely populated.

Well, since I share Spartan's disdain or 'dismay' for Bass Pro, I know at the time it went in I was kind of in shock that we decided to hitch our futuristic cosmopolitan ideas of what our downtown should be on a mass-market outdoors shop. I also have never been wild about the look of the structure or the surface parking. Emotionally, up until that moment I felt that OKC had a lot of opportunity to build up a downtown for the 21st Century. After that point I felt like we'd settled for less and basically fulfilled the stereotype. Seattle, Dallas, etc. would never put something like that in the heart of their downtown. It'd be out in the burbs. Maybe it was silly of me to mentally compare OKC to such cities. Perhaps our regional competitors really are Arlington, Grapevine, Springfield and the like.

I absolutely agree. OKC, even in the best of times, can't help but making 2 steps forward and one step backward all the time. We do dumb, retarded little things. A lot of times we just do it to block out certain personalities that city leaders don't like, such as Moshe Tal or Bob Funk, but other times, we just do it because we haven't learned our lesson about urban renewal, and never will. We like the idea of selling out to have "touristy big box Bass Pro" in our downtown that all the rednecks will flock to. We like the idea of basically having an uber high-end community of suburbanesque faux English town homes for our downtown housing, and if we could find a way, we would turn downtown into one giant gated community. We prefer high-end condo for-sale housing over anything that would ever encourage diversity. Our idea of attracting businesses to downtown means getting as many chain restaurants as possible for a tiny 1 sq mile area.

I agree that there is so much potential. We could have been a lot better than we are today. When MAPS was passed nobody anticipated how downtown would have grown, but I guarantee everyone, it would be so much more if we hadn't screwed up in several key places. And I mean really screwed up. Look at the crappy Bass Pro. That is absolutely infuriating, from the perspective of urban planning..as an arch student. Look at the rest of Lower Bricktown, especially the utterly disgusting Residence Inn. The best thing about LB is McDonald's, and that's the only business we've EVER stood up to. Go figure.

ONe has nothing to do with the other. With Bass Pro, OKC was attempting to help a business that was felt would attract throngs of visitors downtown. It would attract out of town tourists and dollars - thus translating to additional sales tax revenue for the city that could be rolled back into the area.

There are any number of things we could have attempted to lure into our downtown that would have had that effect... I will never, ever believe that Bass Pro was the best fit or even a decent fit for the area. I think what happened was that we had a bunch of people trying to bring in the right business and they failed... and panicked. Somewhere along the line Bass Pro came into the equation, and with a lot of public support coming from The Oklahoman (disclosure notice: the owners of that paper also have a stake in Bass Pro), the rest is history.


The city was hoping Bass Pro might also help lure other retail businesses downtown where there is very little. More retail would equal more incentive for people to want to live downtown and give developers more incentive to build new homes in the downtown area.

So far that theory about retail isn't working out for us. How long has that monstrosity been there now, ten years? And maybe others are different, but I would never want to live next to a Bass Pro.


As far as comparisons with Dallas or Seattle, there isn't a comparison.

I think the Seattle comparison is very fair. The city of OKC and the city of Seattle have relatively the same population in the urban core and in the MSA (granted that their state's population is higher in the surrounding areas). Seattle, long ago, was a city known more for its trees and lumberjacks than anything else. Then as the years went on, starting say 30 years ago, the population really broke off into two major groups... one representing their old economy, and another largely focused on big business and information technology. That city did a lot of things to encourage the new economy and keep the 'creative class' nearby. Ask yourself this: if OKC is at the precipice of a "Seattle" decision, where we go in a new direction or simply encourage what has always been so... which direction do you think the Bass Pro takes us in?

Dallas is and isn't a fair comparison. As the region's strongest economy and fastest-growing city, I think we will always compare our city to how we measure up against Dallas. And the thing about Dallas is... what you said is pretty much true. The town has some interesting nightlife in areas like Lower Greenville, but it isn't world-class. If we are trying to meet or surpass Dallas' entertainment economy we should really have a shot at doing that. And yet we aren't. Why is that?

I absolutely agree. OKC, even in the best of times, can't help but making 2 steps forward and one step backward all the time. We do dumb, retarded little things.

I think our problem is that the folks controlling development here are a bunch of old cornballs. Which isn't so much different than other cities I suppose. The difference is usually in those other cities the people with money realize this and determine that they still want to make money, so they hire hip people to work the details for them. We don't seem to do that here. I chalk the bad decisions up to a society that contains people who have mostly been in government their entire lives (state, federal, military...) and so they make the kind of decisions that you would expect of a government bureaucrat....


A lot of times we just do it to block out certain personalities that city leaders don't like, such as Moshe Tal or Bob Funk, but other times, we just do it because we haven't learned our lesson about urban renewal, and never will.

I go back and forth on Moshe Tal all the time. I can understand the council's concerns at the time, but at the same time he really did have a partnership, or at least a handshake agreement, with a guy known for bringing in some really cool developments all across the country. I can't think of the guys name at the moment, but I've been to his website and seen some pretty phenomenal-looking developments he's been in charge of.


We like the idea of selling out to have "touristy big box Bass Pro" in our downtown that all the rednecks will flock to.

We luuuuv it. Get er done.


We like the idea of basically having an uber high-end community of suburbanesque faux English town homes for our downtown housing, and if we could find a way, we would turn downtown into one giant gated community.

Yes exactly. I did not study architecture in school, but I would like to think that I have a good appreciation of fine art and interesting design. And it just kills me that all of the housing developments downtown are exactly as you say. I honestly don't even have a problem with some of them being in this style, but all of them?? It drives me insane. I've said it before... I wish our developers would pick up Cosmopolitan Home or Dwell magazines and take a peek at what modern development looks like. I would love to see some of that in OKC. Yet everything we do is so plain and boring, and so freaking predictable like the horrendous Bass Pro decision. I have to say your gated community comment made me laugh out loud. It's so funny because sadly there's a real element of truth to the observation.


We prefer high-end condo for-sale housing over anything that would ever encourage diversity. Our idea of attracting businesses to downtown means getting as many chain restaurants as possible for a tiny 1 sq mile area.

Let me first say that I am grateful that our downtown has improved today compared to where we were 15 years ago. There are things about it that I really like. But at the same time I'm critical of the development there because we could do so much better. Having said that, I think our greatest hindrance to our downtown's development is a general lack of creativity. It's clear to me that everything you've mentioned is evidence of small-mindedness in our development activity downtown. The most upsetting aspect of it is that clearly it is an across-the-board problem and no one person is driving this. Maybe it's just a lack of appreciation or understanding of the art aspects of it all. Maybe the west coast is just more 'artsty' than we are and our schools focus too much on sports and not enough on fine culture. I don't know.


I agree that there is so much potential. We could have been a lot better than we are today. When MAPS was passed nobody anticipated how downtown would have grown, but I guarantee everyone, it would be so much more if we hadn't screwed up in several key places. And I mean really screwed up. Look at the crappy Bass Pro. That is absolutely infuriating, from the perspective of urban planning..as an arch student. Look at the rest of Lower Bricktown, especially the utterly disgusting Residence Inn. The best thing about LB is McDonald's, and that's the only business we've EVER stood up to. Go figure.

Funny, I found myself inside that McDonald's late one night thinking the same thing. It really is pretty cool. I don't remember the order in which the developments you mentioned were built... I'm hoping the McDonald's was the last one. If so, maybe that means downtown planners have finally gotten the message and will be taking a stand from this point forward. We can only hope so.

Funny, I found myself inside that McDonald's late one night thinking the same thing. It really is pretty cool. I don't remember the order in which the developments you mentioned were built... I'm hoping the McDonald's was the last one. If so, maybe that means downtown planners have finally gotten the message and will be taking a stand from this point forward. We can only hope so.

That is a good point, which developments were built last in Bricktown area?

Another one I believe they got it right with, is the Hampton Inn.

Maybe we are improving or maybe we are only taking two steps forward and next will be our two steps back.

There are an awful lot of building demo's flying around, and while a demo isn't always bad, we should have had more warning about some of these, like the Community Foundation. SandRidge also concerns me. The chamber has been forced to do a suburban design because the city won't let them fix EK Gaylord. And so on. I think that we've been progressively getting better (a LOT better) but I'm just not optimistic about the future from what I've seen.