This post is specifically for Midtowner to reply to, but I encourage others view points as well.

Midtowner, for many months now, I've heard you say that people are poor by choice. I somewhat agree with you. I've also heard you say that people have the low paying jobs they have, by choice. You specifically referenced call center jobs. You solution for these people? You get retrained in something that pays better.

Well, my thoughts on this are that not everyone can be wealthy in this world. Not veryone can better their condition. What about the guy that just doesn't have the IQ to make it through college? What about the person that majored in something in college, but a market doesn't exist for that degree now???...unfortunately, though, the person is still boatloads in debt paying back student loans. What about the person that can't just quit working and go back to school because he/she is a single parent and has a family to raise? What about the person that has mental conditions that haven't been able to be controlled by medications or counseling? What about the person that has a serious health condition like MS or Muscular Dystrophy, and can no longer work? What about the disabled? What about the guy that was layed off, but can't find work in today's economy...but he has a family and can't take time out to go back to school and retrain?

See, it isn't always choices that puts people in the financial situation they're in. Layoffs, medical problems, a sour economy, etc. aren't under anyone's individual control.

Sure, there are those that could get better jobs, but what about those that try and try and still never get anywhere? Like those I mentioned above.

I'll continue below....

Okay, I'll make this a little more personal.

My fiancee graduate from the OUHSC College of Allied Health with an Ultrasound Degree last February (2004). She's been out of school for a year now, and hasn't been able to find a job. There are several openings in other states, but there haven't been any solid openings in the state of Oklahoma. Unfortunately, because I'm in medical school here, we can't leave the state.

There have been 3 solid openings available (Baptist, Norman Regional, and Midwest City), and she's applied for all 3. Unfortunately, they were all given to more experienced sonographers, coming in from out of state. A couple of other private clinics have also had openings, but all want at least 5 years of ultrasound experience. So those are out of the question.

Now, mind you, this is the health field, supposedly one of the fastest growing fields, so you would've thought finding a job in this specialty would've been easy.

Well, obviously, we've found out that no one wants to hire new graduates. It's tough. Employers want you to have experience, but how are you supposed to get it if they're not willing to give you a chance?

By the way, we've even tried the Tulsa Market. Nada! No luck! Their demand for sonographers is even less than ours. Same with Chickasha, Ardmore, Tahlequah, Enid, and basically every other hospital across the state.

She interviewed with a private practice yesterday, but chances there don't look good, as they're wanting someone to scan solo, thus they're looking for someone with 5+ years of experience. Also, there's a current opening at St. Anthony Hospital but it also requires 1-2 years of previous experience. She's applied at all of these anyways, but they've turned her down because she hasn't met their requirements for experience.

In the meantime, she's accepted a job at Oklahoma Natural Gas in their call center paying $10 an hour plus benefits. Not bad for the job, but a far cry from the $25 an hour she would be making as a sonographer.

Problem is, her training is so specialized (it's that way in all of the medical professions), what other choices does she have?

Going through sonography school, a professional school, at OUHSC wasn't cheap. She can't afford to take out anymore loans...she's reached her Federal limit. Thus, she can't just go back to school and re-train. And why would she want to, after all of the work she put into getting her degree?

Midtowner, obviously, from what you've said in your posts over the last few months on this topic you'd probably say that my fiancee is in the situation she's in because she's made poor choices. Sure, I'm not taking anything personal because you didn't direct your opinions at me, but I am trying to make a point here.

So Midtowner, you seem to think you know everything about employment and choosing a better profession......and why people are struggling so much financially.
What should she do?

And by the way, we're getting married so moving apart from each other is not an option, and I have to stay here at OU (I've been accepted here and once your accepted at one med school, you cannot transfer to another). And as I said, going back to school isn't an option now....she can't take out anymore grants or loans. She needs to work full time to pay her bills.

So, your solution to our problem? Seriously, your input might be of help, so don't get on the defense here, but try to give me some good feedback!

First of all Patrick has your fiancee applied at the new hospital in Moore. I would think they would need entry level people there. So she might try applying there.

Second I hear you loud and clear, Its sad that a majority of are college graduates have to pack a bag and move away to find a job. I dated a girl that was in the engineering school at OU. She had to move all the way to Pensacola, FL. to find work.

I blame the government in this state for not stepping up to the plate years ago and making things happen. I think its pretty sad the catalyst for change in this state was the loss on a bid for an aircraft maintence depot.

This state truly believed that oil and agriculture would be the cash cow for centuries to come. When at the same time other states started investing money in a variety of areas. The key to a continously stable economy is a diverse economy.

We need to start educating are workforce. If the state and local leaders had done this years ago. Then we would be like every other major city, it would be just a matter of picking a field and earning your degree.

I believe just like midtowner that your choices in life do control what happens to you.
Our society has changed drastically over the years. In years past the worker went where the work was even if it meaned uprooting the family. Now days the worker sits and waits for the work to come to him.

What really needs to happen in this state is there needs to be a push for the majority of citizens to pursue higher ed. I really can't believe are govenor and his new mission. Now that the lottery has been set. He wants put more money into infrastructure. He has yet mention a scholarship plan for oklahomans.

My plan would be for every High School Student that has a 3.5 GPA or better they automatically get a free ride to the state school of thier choice. (provided they meet entrance requirements). 3.0-2.5 would be required to pay half of thier tuition. Below that would just qualify for a small grant. In essence you would be creating an incentive for kids to stay in school and go to college.

Now as far as those you mentioned that couldn't work because of age, a mental or physical handicap. In my opinion that is what welfare and social security are for. I have no problem with the government supporting those that can't work. The people I have issues with are those that choose not to work because of pure laziness. That in itself is what is killing social security and other social programs.

Well I never went though college, I chosoe not too, I didn't have the desire too. My chioce for work was a auto tech. I went through 3 1/2 years of school for it. I went my high and the more/norman votech. Well gues what I am not a auto tech I am a park maint worker, I mow and take care of the parks around my city. I make almost 14 bucks an hour and am very proud of myself for making that and being in my job for 6 years the longest one I have had. I think it has something to do with oklahoma workforce, I can get a job anywhere but my father who has been to college can't come here and get a job he has been qualified for and has been doing for years. I can't go to texas and finding anything I can do for the right pay or its something that has to have some type of darn degree or highly experinced. You make life what you want it to be. I am happy where I am with what I am making, others may want more than so be it then thats what they want. As long as I can make enough to pay my bills have a place to live a car to drive and take care of my kids is all that matters. I wish I could go to college and get a degree and make a tons of money but money doesn't buy happiness. I fell I am not smart enough to get through college I barley made it through school as it was. I do know one thing oklahoma needs to do something to bring the economy up, but from what I have heard is oklahoma is a cheaper living state and a better cheaper place to retire. I my self am very happy with what I am who I am and what I do for my living.

The laws of supply and demand are not compassionate, they are also not spiteful. They just are. People are paid at a rate that indicates their value to society. Currently, there aren't many horse buggy whip manufacturers out there, but at one time, it was a huge business. The automobile was invented, and suddenly, many horse buggy whip manufacturers found themselves in a position where they had to retrain or retire. There was no welfare back then, no entitlement from the government. You were not paid simply to exist.

I really don't like the fact that in the future, when I make big bucks, the government will take my money, and then turn around and give it to people that simply exist. The government that is itself supposed to protect me from thieves, in essence becomes one.

I digress though... yes, your fiancée is a product of her choices. Currently, she chooses to stay here with you instead of seeking work in Texas, where you've said before, the market is booming. While it would be a tough choice, it's a choice that a lot of couples make -- to live apart for financial reasons. You two don't do that, that's your choice. To make less money than your potential. I never said money was measure of a man. You two are clearly very happy, and that's fine.

As for people that choose to drop out of HS, choose to work for low wage jobs, choose to be unemployed, I think society should allow them to enjoy the negative consequences of not producing -- of course, I do recognize that there are those who simply can't due to disabilities, war injuries, on-the-job injuries, age, etc. There are programs in place to care for them, and it is a function of a civilized society to care for them. On the other hand, you have people who choose not to retrain, choose to stubbornly pursue a field where there are no jobs, etc. There is good money to be made stuffing envelopes, starting home businesses, etc. Not having work "avaliable" is not an excuse for me.

Patrick, please realize that I'm not trying to be harsh or judgemental. I'm not calling anyone on this board lazy (although I do recognize that there are lazy people out there). I just strongly believe that we should hold ourselves personally accountable for situations that we find ourselves in. Also, I'm not taking a dig at people without college degrees. One of our clients doesn't have a college degree and while I was going through his financial statements, his business had 14-million plus in net sales last year. Also, a very good friend of mine owns an IT firm downtown. He has no formal education, but his clients pay him upwards of $125/hr to work on their computer networks. Formal training in a trade school or university is certainly one way to increase your earning potential, but it's not the only way.

Hey guys, thanks for the great input on this topic. I'm glad you approached the subject the way I hoped you would....discussing the issues I hinted at in my post, and not focusing so much on the personal nature of the topic. I think this has been one of the more informative discussions I've seen on this site thus far.

I think I'll address a few of the issues presented here.

1. Actually my fiancee has tried to apply at the new hospital in Moore. They're not currently ready to interview radiology staff yet, and won't be for some time...maybe 6 months. It will be a possiblity in the near future, so hopefully the ONG job will just be temporary. She actually pursued a field that was extremely hot at the time, and still is, unfortunately, it's just cooled down in Oklahoma.

2. I've heard some say that we don't have a skilled workforce. Well, I just don't think that's completely true. If that were true, most of our college graduates wouldn't have to leave the state to find work. The reason our workforce isn't as skilled as some people would like it to be, is because we're losing most of our skilled college graduates. Still, there are many in our state that have no formal education...thus the reason skilled jobs may be hard to come by.

3. I do agree with you guys that everyone makes their own choices. It's just a shame that our state can't offer jobs to skilled college graduates, and they instead have to leave the state to go elsewhere. That's not saying much about Oklahoma.

4. This statement by oklacity75 is so true: "people I have issues with are those that choose not to work because of pure laziness."

Great discussion!

Patrick, consider this:

There is a gentleman here in Oklahoma City who was literally one of the "boat people". He came to America alone, unable to speak English, and without an education. He had nothing but his health and his determination.

Somehow he got to Oklahoma City, worked for awhile and founded his own restaurant. Long story short, he now has 13 restaurants in OKC and Tulsa and pays himself once per year. All his other revenue is plowed back into the company. This man is the owner and founder of the Jimmy's Egg franchise.

If he can do what he did, I'm sorry, everyone else's excuses for not being able to get ahead in life are pretty damned pathetic.