Our Union President was notified by the Fire Chief on Friday the 11th and was told there will be no layoffs of personnel this fiscal year. This came from city manager Jim Couch. Can I say a hearty "Thank You"!!!!!!

They should have just told Chief Citty. Start taking proactive steps to shun the union..

I am glad to hear this though. And I see on the paper's website where they just initiated a batch of new trainees.

They should have just told Chief Citty. Start taking proactive steps to shun the union..

I am glad to hear this though. And I see on the paper's website where they just initiated a batch of new trainees.

Wrong Chief. Citty is Police Chief, Bryant is Fire Chief.

That's very good to hear.

I knew that City Council was reviewing each department's budget cut ideas on December 8, but they did it in Executive Session, so citizens couldn't watch. I guess the cut is going to be on the other departments...

I know there's not a lot we can do to help, but I really think people living in Oklahoma City should make every effort to shop here. Before I buy anything online, I always think, "Could I buy this anywhere in Okahoma City?" If the answer is yes or maybe, I make sure I try to do so. Frequently the tax savings from online shopping are similar to the shipping charges, and so it's not a big money savings to buy online. But regardless, even if I save a little online, I figure it's worth it to shop here to help the city out even a little.

I knew that City Council was reviewing each department's budget cut ideas on December 8, but they did it in Executive Session, so citizens couldn't watch. I guess the cut is going to be on the other departments...Lets hope it doesn't cost anybody their job in any department.

I know there's not a lot we can do to help, but I really think people living in Oklahoma City should make every effort to shop here. Before I buy anything online, I always think, "Could I buy this anywhere in Okahoma City?" If the answer is yes or maybe, I make sure I try to do so. Frequently the tax savings from online shopping are similar to the shipping charges, and so it's not a big money savings to buy online. But regardless, even if I save a little online, I figure it's worth it to shop here to help the city out even a little.

Unfortunately, many people don't look at shopping in that manner (I'm with you on it though). A co-worker and I were discussing people's lack of understanding of sales tax and where it goes/what it does just the other day. Is that something that should be taught in school? Parenting? It really is important, whether or not people realize it.

Lets hope it doesn't cost anybody their job in any department.

I've heard about possible cuts, but I haven't actually seen any documents or the proposals...

Awesome! Did the police department receive the same news? I know that they just initiated 34 new officers. What's the story there?

What a difference a week makes.

What a difference a week makes.
No kidding. Glad OKC turned it's head slightly to the left and avoided drowning in an inch of water.

Really. I'm happy that the news thus far is good post Maps3. Hopefully the economy rebounds more sharply early next year and we avoid layoffs in all city departments. Thirty four new police officers and no fire layoffs. Great news!

Imagine if this news had come out after a Maps3 defeat this past Tuesday. What a pseudo chain of effed up reasoning that would've created. Eww.

I'm glad to hear this, much of my family was deadset against maps and I have family in law enforcement who think the union is 100% honest 100% of the time. The city played dirty as did the union, I'm not trying to give anyone a pass but the union made things out to be so bad it was just laughable, but people believed it...

Glad to hear the city is taking public safety seriously.

What's the story on the police helicopter? Are there funding issues with the chopper? You don't see it up nearly as often as you once did. I remember hearing talk about grounding the helicopter except for use in felony cases. Am I right about that? Honestly, it might have been another city, but I know I don't see it nearly as often as I once did.

What's the story on the police helicopter? Are there funding issues with the chopper? You don't see it up nearly as often as you once did. I remember hearing talk about grounding the helicopter except for use in felony cases. Am I right about that? Honestly, it might have been another city, but I know I don't see it nearly as often as I once did.

Tulsa did that, last I heard OKC was still flying theirs.

Our Union President was notified by the Fire Chief on Friday the 11th and was told there will be no layoffs of personnel this fiscal year. This came from city manager Jim Couch. Can I say a hearty "Thank You"!!!!!!

First of all, let me say I'm thrilled that there will be no layoffs.

Now, I would like to ask some of the gloom and doom MAPS opponents: would you have so harshly opposed MAPS if you had known no layoffs were coming?

As memory serves, several posters on here claimed there was a plan in place that would eliminate as many as 100 jobs. This was presented here as fact, and those questioning the claim's veracity were treated to all variety of derision.

It's weird that two days after MAPS passed there's an article in the Oklahoman celebrating the hiring of 34 new police officers.

The real question is how badly were the police and fire union MAPS opponents lying to us on this board? Or, is the better question, how badly were the union leaders lying to their members? Either way, the dire predictions -- which were presented to this board as fact -- were clearly not true.

Those of us who questioned these dire predictions were treated as ignoramuses -- or even liars -- by the posters here who were peddling them. We were told the layoffs were a done deal. Obviously this was not the case.

What a disaster this would have been if the anti-MAPS crowd had been able to scare enough people into voting against MAPS. Remember, by their own admission they were going door to door talking about the imminent layoff of public safety personnel, and even suggesting that the passage of MAPS would lead to additional job losses.

To me, this is rather infuriating.

First of all, let me say I'm thrilled that there will be no layoffs.

Now, I would like to ask some of the gloom and doom MAPS opponents: would you have so harshly opposed MAPS if you had known no layoffs were coming?

As memory serves, several posters on here claimed there was a plan in place that would eliminate as many as 100 jobs. This was presented here as fact, and those questioning the claim's veracity were treated to all variety of derision.

It's weird that two days after MAPS passed there's an article in the Oklahoman celebrating the hiring of 34 new police officers.

The real question is how badly were the police and fire union MAPS opponents lying to us on this board? Or, is the better question, how badly were the union leaders lying to their members? Either way, the dire predictions -- which were presented to this board as fact -- were clearly not true.

Those of us who questioned these dire predictions were treated as ignoramuses -- or even liars -- by the posters here who were peddling them. We were told the layoffs were a done deal. Obviously this was not the case.

What a disaster this would have been if the anti-MAPS crowd had been able to scare enough people into voting against MAPS. Remember, by their own admission they were going door to door talking about the imminent layoff of public safety personnel, and even suggesting that the passage of MAPS would lead to additional job losses.

To me, this is rather infuriating.

Well said, I went rounds with several family members who got their info from the union and the gloom/doom was insane even when I presented data in a factual and level headed manner referencing prior city projects, it did no good, they kept saying and actually believed the city was out to "get" fire and police.

Some councilors supposedly have paid the video vigilante to find police officers specifically and edit video to make the department look bad.

This makes no sense to go after your own police department and furthermore if a scandal was uncovered it would make the mayor, city management and the chief all look bad so I find that whole notion ahrd to swallow.

I dont care if someone was against the project, my uncle was against it but had some reasonable and well thought out reasons for his opposition. If I lived in OKC it would have received my vote...it's ashame that people on both sides of the isle believe the indoctrination spewed by a few.

Soonerguru, it really sounds like your looking for a fight. I'm not looking for that, I will give you what I was told. The Fire chief came to my station and wrote this on the board. I was told that these cuts were to be voted on by the council on 12/15/09.

2% bugdet cuts city wide-
Loss of 2 Engine companies, E-51 and E-4 and Brush pumper 4. That total's 29 positions-
Loss of 11 civilian positions, they are gone, the positions have been elimenated-
3% budget cuts after 7/1/10-

Now I don't know how you want to spin that. That is the information our department head relayed to us. I'm a union member and I posted these facts here and if that means that I was lying to you all badly then I don't know what else to say.

Wrong Chief. Citty is Police Chief, Bryant is Fire Chief.

I meant police because I went on to mention the new initiates.. I brought up police because you titled the thread "No Public Safety Layoffs." But you're right, I should read your post more carefully and at least made a segway mentioning fire in the beginning..

Thanks to a few friendly "JABS" from a couple of firemen on this and other threads, I finally woke up from a POST MAPS DAZE, went to Dr. Relax and took my CHILL PILLS. I think it's time everyone does the same, and let's work to make this City better than it is.

It may very well be that other City departments were able to cover the 2% for Fire and Police in their own budgets, or some other financial finagling was done. The 2% may have been from other things in their own budgets, just not personnel. People should come to City Council on Tuesday and ask... or maybe John Estus/Bryan Dean should write a story (if they are still covering City Hall for the Oklahoman).

It's weird that two days after MAPS passed there's an article in the Oklahoman celebrating the hiring of 34 new police officers.

if not mistaken, all of the new officers were graduates of the OKC police academy. These "new hires" were known well in advance. Apparently if you graduate, you are hired? Are these actually additional officers or are they just replacing ones lost through retirement etc? When it is all said and done, are the staffing numbers the same?

Since my retirement from the OKC Parks Department, I've kept in touch with a couple of supervisor's/managers, their telling me that they are hearing there's no layoff's, however,the hiring freeze that has been in place for several months will remain until ???
They feel as though they can meet budget reductions by cutting from other sources; new equipment, supply's, etc.

I have been on some other sites and most folks are saying they won't shop in Okc unless the have to. Most are going to warr acres, bethany, midwest city and moore/norman. Whats that say for the city of oklahoma city. Not good news.

I have been on some other sites and most folks are saying they won't shop in Okc unless the have to. Most are going to warr acres, bethany, midwest city and moore/norman. Whats that say for the city of oklahoma city. Not good news.

But why do they say that? OKC's sales tax is lower... doesn't make sense.

I have been on some other sites and most folks are saying they won't shop in Okc unless the have to. Most are going to warr acres, bethany, midwest city and moore/norman. Whats that say for the city of oklahoma city. Not good news.

POST MAPS3 BLUES, they'll be back shopping in OKC (that's if they even stop). The projects will be completed on time and on budget. In 7 years, we'll be talking about a possible MAPS4, what projects should be included, who's for it and who's against it. ONLY IN AMERICA

The best think however, is that by the time MAPS4 gets here, we'll have a Replublican back in the White House.

I have been on some other sites and most folks are saying they won't shop in Okc unless the have to. Most are going to warr acres, bethany, midwest city and moore/norman. Whats that say for the city of oklahoma city. Not good news.

People say that stuff all the time and they rarely if ever do go someplace else, unless they live in one of those suburbs they'll spend more in gasoline then they'll save in tax.

It's also usually such a small number of people that it's negligible anyway. And, they're going to have to do it for 7 years. Most people will forget in a few weeks.

The best think however, is that by the time MAPS4 gets here, we'll have a Replublican back in the White House

And we're feeling the effects of the last republican right now. Worst economy in 50 years, two wars, massive, crushing debt. Yeah, that worked out well.

It would be funny for the OKC sales tax boycotters to actually spend higher taxes elsewhere.

And we're feeling the effects of the last republican right now. Worst economy in 50 years, two wars, massive, crushing debt. Yeah, that worked out well.

It would be funny for the OKC sales tax boycotters to actually spend higher taxes elsewhere.

Because this administration has been a bastion of fiscal sanity? Obama and his pals have taken the debt and deficit and used every excuse under the sun to make it worse. I'm pretty pissed at all hte idiots in DC and hope we have someone with some common sense and some real experience running a business/government something other than community organizing or daddy's oil money.

Obama inherited a nasty recession, but has done nothing of any consequence to help, he took a stimulus that could ahve been good and turned basically half of it into handouts for DNC doners and friends of the party and the other half into some stimulus full of inefficiency and illtargeted tax cuts and reforms.

I suppose all of this is offtopic for this thread though.

I have been on some other sites and most folks are saying they won't shop in Okc unless the have to. Most are going to warr acres, bethany, midwest city and moore/norman. Whats that say for the city of oklahoma city. Not good news.

I've seen those comments too and they crack me up. Do these people even know what their sales tax goes to in Moore, MWC, Bethany, etc? Of course not. They just know it doesn't go towards something progressive (more than likely). And anyone who is going to boycott OKC stores to shop in Bethany, Warr Acres, MWC, Del City, etc .. well good luck with that. Have fun shopping at Wal-Mart the rest of your life.

Our Union President was notified by the Fire Chief on Friday the 11th and was told there will be no layoffs of personnel this fiscal year. This came from city manager Jim Couch. Can I say a hearty "Thank You"!!!!!!

I've heard otherwise. I believe come Tuesday there will be massive police and fire layoffs due to your breathren trying to sway the election.

Just telling you what I know.

Loed Gerald, bless your heart!

I've seen those comments too and they crack me up. Do these people even know what their sales tax goes to in Moore, MWC, Bethany, etc? Of course not. They just know it doesn't go towards something progressive (more than likely). And anyone who is going to boycott OKC stores to shop in Bethany, Warr Acres, MWC, Del City, etc .. well good luck with that. Have fun shopping at Wal-Mart the rest of your life.

In Cleveland CO. (S. OKC, Moore, Norman) part of the sales tax is going toward a New County Jail

Because this administration has been a bastion of fiscal sanity? Obama and his pals have taken the debt and deficit and used every excuse under the sun to make it worse. I'm pretty pissed at all hte idiots in DC and hope we have someone with some common sense and some real experience running a business/government something other than community organizing or daddy's oil money.

Obama inherited a nasty recession, but has done nothing of any consequence to help, he took a stimulus that could ahve been good and turned basically half of it into handouts for DNC doners and friends of the party and the other half into some stimulus full of inefficiency and illtargeted tax cuts and reforms.

I suppose all of this is offtopic for this thread though.

I agree the stimulus could have been much better. The goal, from what I understand, was to get something passed quickly, a difficult feat in Congress right now. The stimulus we got was what you would expect to come out of Congress.

But to be fair, some of the "handouts" to DNC donors went to things like state governments, highways, education, etc. A lot of them were public workers, yes. Did it stimulate the economy? Not as much as other things would have, perhaps, but it kept us from falling into a black hole, which, don't kid yourself, is where we were headed.

Oklahoma used it to balance its budget. It took $700 million in stimulus money to keep our own government operating. Would we have preferred to see hundreds if not thousands of public sector employees fired? That's what may have happened.

The point is, it is too early to declare the stimulus a failure or a success, but it certainly helped keep us out of the economic abyss, and at least action was taken before the crisis grew worse and multiplied.

Now, back to topic......

The real question is how badly were the police and fire union MAPS opponents lying to us on this board? Or, is the better question, how badly were the union leaders lying to their members? Either way, the dire predictions -- which were presented to this board as fact -- were clearly not true.

Those of us who questioned these dire predictions were treated as ignoramuses -- or even liars -- by the posters here who were peddling them. We were told the layoffs were a done deal. Obviously this was not the case.

To me, this is rather infuriating.

Soonerguru the claims which you have issue with didn't come down from our "union leaders" whom you would like to demonize. Those were the projections of the fire chief, who gets his info directly from the city manager.

If you felt you were being treated like an ignoramous or liar, it's because you were making projections out of thin air, unless you have some sort of direct line to the city managers office. Sorry we made you feel that way. The projection we were getting is exactly what the dept. heads were being told. We knew where the projections we were getting originated from, the city manager.
If you want to be infuriated, that might be a good place to start. In the mean time try to chill out, it's over.

OK, then. So you're saying you were mislead by the city manager on layoffs. Fine. My point is I doubt you will issue any mea culpas here for suggesting that it was a rock-solid truth that there would be layoffs of police and fire and that people in the NTM campaign were going door to door suggesting that MAPS would lead to additional police and fire layoffs. I'm thrilled there were no layoffs and thrilled that MAPS passed, so I'm moving on. It would be expecting too much for some of you to admit you were wrong.

I have been on some other sites and most folks are saying they won't shop in Okc unless the have to. Most are going to warr acres, bethany, midwest city and moore/norman. Whats that say for the city of oklahoma city. Not good news.

Hey Bob,

I hear that argument, but don't they know they're only shooting themselves in their own foot?

Do they not understand where the City gets its operating (not just MAPS) funding dollars from? That the Police & Fire salaries and budgets for which they so valiantly fought are coming out of those same tax coffers? It's just a really bizarre case of irony that they want to protest MAPS (*ooh - let's stick it to the man*) by NOT shopping in OKC, but they're effectively hurting themselves by doing that very thing. If they want that 2% raise and to help get the basic budget back up to where it was pre-recession, they'd better make every effort possible to shop in OKC.

...

don't they know they're only shooting themselves in their own foot?



While I won't actively encourage anyone to diss their own city by coming here and skipping OKC, I just wanna say their tax dollars are welcome here in Norman any time they wanna come on down.

Soonerguru, what is it you want us to say we are sorry for? Don't you think it was a little odd that the City manager told the dept. heads to make cuts around the time of Maps3? I don't know but if I was trying to sell something I would not have mentioned budget cuts until after the Maps3 election.

Fritterbabe, We never saw it as shooting ourselves in the foot. How much worse was it going to get? All the talk about all of the maps growing the city did not bode with us since we have steadily lost personnel since the end of the first maps. We needed to stand on the hill and scream to you that the city is not keeping up with growth.

OK, then. So you're saying you were mislead by the city manager on layoffs. Fine. It would be expecting too much for some of you to admit you were wrong.

Okay you're right, we were wrong for believing the city manager when he said there were going to be layoffs. That being said, he is the only person who can initiate layoffs so, I'm not sure what other conclusion you would have had us come to. We were wrong for taking him at his word.:tiphat:

Hey Bob,

I hear that argument, but don't they know they're only shooting themselves in their own foot?

Do they not understand where the City gets its operating (not just MAPS) funding dollars from? That the Police & Fire salaries and budgets for which they so valiantly fought are coming out of those same tax coffers? It's just a really bizarre case of irony that they want to protest MAPS (*ooh - let's stick it to the man*) by NOT shopping in OKC, but they're effectively hurting themselves by doing that very thing. If they want that 2% raise and to help get the basic budget back up to where it was pre-recession, they'd better make every effort possible to shop in OKC.
Too many people say they are willing to cut off their nose to spite their face but when it really comes down to it, that stuff is just a bunch of blowhards exhaust their opinion. The "may" for a little while but most go back to their normal routine. If they really act that way it just shows how ignorant of the real world they actually are.

People say that stuff all the time and they rarely if ever do go someplace else, unless they live in one of those suburbs they'll spend more in gasoline then they'll save in tax.

They're not saving anything. The sales tax is higher in all the suburbs, except maybe Warr Acres.

I know Tulsa grounded their helicopter, but just from my perspective, purely anecdotal...I don't see our bird in the air near as often as I used to.
Seriously...is it just me?

The sales tax is really all about the same. South of 89th we are already paying for our new jail. It will make a difference when the Oklahoma county jail tax goes into effect. When the new Crest at 104th opens life will be perfect.

They're not saving anything. The sales tax is higher in all the suburbs, except maybe Warr Acres.

That is very close to being true (Warr Acres is barely higher, 8.50%). According to the City's MAPS 3 website, OKC has the #16th lowest sales tax rate in the Metro area (8.375%). Moore & Norman (8.25%), Del City (8.00%), Midwest City (7.80%) and Edmond (7.75%) are lower.

If we end up with a penny Okla. Co. sales tax for the County Jail that changes things a bit. OKC will have the 2nd highest tax rate (with 6 communities tied for #1).

I know Tulsa grounded their helicopter, but just from my perspective, purely anecdotal...I don't see our bird in the air near as often as I used to.
Seriously...is it just me?

I agree. Maybe our crime rate is down... Hmmmm.

I've heard otherwise. I believe come Tuesday there will be massive police and fire layoffs due to your breathren trying to sway the election.

Just telling you what I know.

Curious where you heard that... I've heard rumors that, in order to save (and maybe add) public safety positions, the other departments are looking at a huge cut for the next FY (July 1 2010 to June 30 2011).

So much for Police and Fire budget cuts and MAPS3 not doing anything for Police and Fire. City Manager reports that thanks to MAPS3, the City will hire an additional 20 Police Officers and 10 Firefighters.

I will believe it when I see it!! Fire is now down 20 more people from last year. 5 retired this month. Many more retiring the next few months. NO RECRUIT SCHOOL PLANNED!!!!!! HIRING FREEZE!!!!! So, ten more won't even get us back to flush, and IF they started hiring today, it would be almost a year before those firefighters would be on the street.

City Council met in Finance Committee this morning. NO commitments were made either way. Council will meet to study the budget-related issues on January 26 in a study session. All departments will be asked to submit 12% budget cuts and Council will have to choose what gets cut and what stays when the Fiscal Year 2011 budget is approved before July 1. Nothing has been done yet.

I'm sorry, exactly what about my last statement is not correct? I agree they haven't done anything, the lack of action is part of the problem.

I'm sorry, exactly what about my last statement is not correct? I agree they haven't done anything, the lack of action is part of the problem.

Post edited.

Some are never happy and can't be pleased. One would think that everyone could occasionally find something positive to post.
Oh well, I'm headed to Tenkiller, if It's going to be to cold to get out, I rather have a view of the Lake then asphalt and dormant grass.

Not trying to be a downer, but I can't see a positive side right now... unless our sales tax revenue ticks up faster than expected, it's going to be painful for everyone.

I do believe that the mayor said he was going to use the use tax to hire more public safety but i also saw city council tuesday when good old pete white said that he doesnt agree and doesnt want the use tax to it and that he never said it, just the mayor. Mean while when brian walters was attempting to discuss it pete white would interrupt. I may not know very many council meeting procedures and no i dont like pete white, but when you are in a coucnil meeting which is ran much like a parlamentary procedure you shoud have certain guidlines to go by. you may disagree on items but to talk over someone whom is trying to make his point to other members who may not be decided is disrespectful and shouldnt be tolerated.

I presonally think that a man that cant hear the other side of an argument because of the other persons stand on an issue shouldnt be in a public office where he hears different views. whos to say that you as a citizen really care for something that you need his help with but because he doesnt agree with you he wont let you make your point. i really think that okc needs to get rid of pete white and get someone in who CAN listen to different sides.

oh and by the way, i was one of the door-to-door ntm person and i mentioned the pending budget cuts and what that would mean to the fire service. I am on the chopping block come layoff time and while i am glad no one got laid off okc is not out of the woods. not sure wher the mayor got his numbers that the time to do maps projects is now when econmists on all news channels are saying it will take around 3 years for okc just to start looking up.

just saying i believe we have a lot of hard years coming ahead to okc. With or without maps.

tehvipir: The economists the City cited from OU & OSU in the MAPS 3 campaign argued (and I agree with, IF you can afford to do it) that the time to do these types of projects is now, while construction costs etc are cheaper. MAPS 3 projects are going to be staggered over the next 10 years or so, how many of them are going to be able to take advantage of the lower costs is uncertain as it depends on the length of the recession etc. Best case scenario is we end up with 9 Practice Facilities. by that, I mean they come in well below the projected cost. of course we could end up with a repeat of the original MAPS, where projects came in costing 47.75% more than what voters were told. Obviously not an either/or. Will probably be a mixed bag.

As far as the Council and the Use Tax goes, as far as I know the Council was silent on the issue when the Mayor/City Manager proposed it (in the press conference with Prater and councilman Marrs). Marrs was for it. The only Councilperson that expressed they were against the Mayor's proposal was Walters. Believe other council persons have spoken against using any temporary tax for funding personnel in the past, but they were silent when it came to MAPS 3. If this is in error, please post.

i agree to an extent that the other memebers didnt openly support and state what teh mayor was saying. But when you have a poster child like the mayor that is on ever open tv slot and on every page of the Newspaper and all over the radio on your behalf then i do believe that you either should have made a statement then. kind of like gulty by association. they should have stopped him but didnt make any attempts that i know of. they let it go in order to pass.

i agree to an extent that the other memebers didnt openly support and state what teh mayor was saying. But when you have a poster child like the mayor that is on ever open tv slot and on every page of the Newspaper and all over the radio on your behalf then i do believe that you either should have made a statement then. kind of like gulty by association. they should have stopped him but didnt make any attempts that i know of. they let it go in order to pass.

On the other hand, and I'm not knocking any needs of the F or P, but as far as the tv ads, didn't the mayor simply note public safety was and will be a priority, without being more specific? i don't recall specifics. I recall thinking his words were quite safe for him politically. After all, the public safety already had a majority of the budget, and collections are expected to rise, not fall, so if by spending it's already a priority, only major cuts could kill its priority status.

In short, he dinna really say much that was helpful, and the only promise I recall was the one about use tax that the F and P said nopers to as they felt it wasn't enough.

And it's likely not, definitely not given that it is not a permanent source.

Noted in another thread that it seems time to completely let go of MAPs issues and use tax issues and rally/launch the PS Now issue. I could be wrong, but I think the public would support it.