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jstanthrnme
12-11-2009, 03:47 PM
http://www.okctalk.com/content.php?r=107-Trader-Joe-s-and-REI-coming-to-OKC/edit

After much speculation, OKCTalk has learned that Trader Joe's has signed a letter of intent to lease the old Crescent Market space at Nichols Hills Plaza.

Also, we've learned Recreational Equipment Inc., commonly known as REI, will open a store in a new development to the immediate south.

Both properties are owned by Glimcher, a national retail developer which bought the properties outlined in red below from Chesapeake Energy in 2013. See our previous story on the company and what they've done in other markets here: Glimcher (http://www.okctalk.com/showwiki.php?title=Glimcher).


http://www.okctalk.com/images/pete/glimcher020615.jpg

Since the acquisition, Glimcher has been filling up Classen Curve, signing leases with West Elm, Zoe's Kitchen, Kendra Scott and several others. The center is now very near full occupancy.

Although exact plans have yet to be revealed, the company is now turning it's sights to filling the largely vacant Nichols Hills Plaza South and developing several large empty lots. REI will likely be part of a much larger lifestyle center on the south side of NW 63rd and west of Western. We have learned Glimcher is in deep negotiations with several other new-to-market retailers.

Trader Joe's is an American privately held chain of specialty grocery stores headquartered in Southern California. Although half of its 400+ stores are located in California, the company has been in rapid expansion nationwide and now has locations in 38 states.

While a typical grocery store may carry 50,000 items, Trader Joe's stocks about 4,000 items, 80% of which bear one of its own brand names. Trader Joe's describes itself as "your neighborhood grocery store" or "your unique grocery store". Products include gourmet foods, organic foods, vegetarian foods, unusual frozen foods, imported foods, "alternative" food items and staples like bread, cereal, eggs, dairy, coffee and produce. Non-food items include personal hygiene products, household cleaners, vitamins, pet food, plants and flowers.

Many of the company's products are environmentally friendly.

fuzzytoad
12-11-2009, 04:40 PM
Whole Foods has gotten a lot of attention on this board, and this has been mentioned in that thread, but I personaly prefer Trader Joe's to WF.

If you are a facebook user, please follow this link to their new page (they have under 300 fans). Perhaps by flooding the page with comments from people from Oklahoma City, they will take notice of the demand for an upscale, unique grocery store here.


Trader Joe's | Facebook (http://www.facebook.com/traderjoesgrocery)

I was going to write up my feelings about Trader Joe's and why I think WF or even WMNM would be a better choice but I found this online. It sums up what I would have said way better than I could have: Cart Snob (http://www.cartsnob.com/)

huskysooner
12-11-2009, 04:59 PM
I was going to write up my feelings about Trader Joe's and why I think WF or even WMNM would be a better choice but I found this online. It sums up what I would have said way better than I could have: Cart Snob (http://www.cartsnob.com/)

I hope by WMNM you don't mean Wal-Mart Neighborhood Market? They are all over the metro area. And even if they weren't....you can not even make a comparison between WF and a neighborhood market.

fuzzytoad
12-11-2009, 05:17 PM
I hope by WMNM you don't mean Wal-Mart Neighborhood Market? They are all over the metro area. And even if they weren't....you can not even make a comparison between WF and a neighborhood market.

no you can't, but a Wal-Mart Neighborhood Market located Downtown would certainly be better than what we have now, which is nothing.

--edit--

Oh, Sorry, I see what you mean, I haven't been keeping up with the WF thread and was under the assumption that we were all still talking about a downtown grocery solution.

betts
12-11-2009, 05:20 PM
I don't know. I'm a Walmart boycotter, so it would be reaaaaallly hard for me to shop at a Wal-Mart Neighborhood Market, even if it was the only supermarket downtown. I do not expect a downtown Whole Foods anytime soon, however. I'd be satisfied with a real neighborhood market.

fuzzytoad
12-11-2009, 05:22 PM
I don't know. I'm a Walmart boycotter, so it would be reaaaaallly hard for me to shop at a Wal-Mart Neighborhood Market, even if it was the only supermarket downtown. I do not expect a downtown Whole Foods anytime soon, however. I'd be satisfied with a real neighborhood market.

Why are you a Walmart boycotter?

betts
12-11-2009, 05:29 PM
I hate their buildings. They abandon them after a fairly short time and move to another site. They have huge ugly parking lots in front of them. They lower their prices to drive local retailers out of business. They never have enough employees to help shoppers or to check them out. They don't give very good benefits to their employees. There are a surprising number of people who boycott Walmart. Now, I realize there are probably other businesses I should be boycotting for the same reason, but it's easy to focus on one.

okcpulse
12-11-2009, 05:56 PM
I like to call them Joke-Mart.

soonerguru
12-11-2009, 09:44 PM
I hate their buildings. They abandon them after a fairly short time and move to another site. They have huge ugly parking lots in front of them. They lower their prices to drive local retailers out of business. They never have enough employees to help shoppers or to check them out. They don't give very good benefits to their employees. There are a surprising number of people who boycott Walmart. Now, I realize there are probably other businesses I should be boycotting for the same reason, but it's easy to focus on one.

I'm a Wal-Mart boycotter as well. Another good reason you didn't mention, betts: I do not want to be a part of their dominance and exclusivity in this market. There are already something like 21 Supercenters in the OKC Metro right now. It's ridiculous and it's why we don't have any competing national grocery stores right now.

JerzeeGrlinOKC
12-12-2009, 11:14 AM
I'm a Wal-Mart boycotter as well. Another good reason you didn't mention, betts: I do not want to be a part of their dominance and exclusivity in this market. There are already something like 21 Supercenters in the OKC Metro right now. It's ridiculous and it's why we don't have any competing national grocery stores right now.

Amen to that, I am in complete agreement, and everything mentioned here are the reasons I also boycott Wal-mart. Except for maybe the employee treatment thing, because actually, I think they are pretty decent compared to other discount big-box markets for similar types of jobs, and its so easy to get a job there. And they murder local business in small towns. And their produce and meat generally are of sub-par quality and pricey given the product. I hate Wal-fart and will not go there unless I'm truly, truly desperate.

I agree, the key to us getting/keeping national upscale chains, and even keeping the local grocery chains we already have, is for us to prove that Wal-mart will not be a competitor the way they are now, and I'm committed to contributing to that in any way possible.

Anyway, to contribute to this thread, there is no way we are going to get a Trader Joe's in this century. They steer clear of the center-bar of the country. Texas doesn't even have one. You can check out the spatial pattern in their locations below:

Welcome to Trader Joe's - Your Neighborhood Grocery Store - Locations (http://www.traderjoes.com/locations.asp)

At least with the WF discussions, we are in the running to get one. I'll hang on to that one.

But I admit, I love TJ, they are amazing, and would probably go there more often than a WF if I had the choice.

krisb
12-12-2009, 11:33 AM
They steer clear of the center-bar of the country. Texas doesn't even have one.

I love Trade Joe's myself, but I can't take the arrogance of a store who completely ignores the middle of the country. That really irks me. I'm glad there are few elitists in OKC.

stlokc
12-12-2009, 12:18 PM
That's a silly argument, no offense. They are in St. Louis and New Mexico already, and are rumored to be coming to Kansas City. Are you saying that because they are not already in Texas, that means they are actively boycotting the plains states? I see no justification for that argument. In my opinion, Trader Joes would be a good fit for OKC, their prices and goods are a happy medium between Homeland and Whole Foods.

gen70
12-12-2009, 12:26 PM
I guess maybe I should start a Wal-Mart thread. (Can't stand the place)

JerzeeGrlinOKC
12-12-2009, 01:18 PM
That's a silly argument, no offense. They are in St. Louis and New Mexico already, and are rumored to be coming to Kansas City. Are you saying that because they are not already in Texas, that means they are actively boycotting the plains states? I see no justification for that argument. In my opinion, Trader Joes would be a good fit for OKC, their prices and goods are a happy medium between Homeland and Whole Foods.

I sure hope you're right stlokc, and you're right, it is a lousy reason on its own, but I just have a feeling its another tick against us. I've become discouraged in general. When we can't even keep Albertson's here and have to beg borrow cheat and steal to get a WF to even consider opening one store, when their headquarters are 6 hours down the road and it seems every other city has one; when I see a map like that, I honestly just say "forget it". I am surprised about Texas though to be honest, since the big cities have such a healthy-support for the upscale or trendy grocery concept. Plus I'm sure our liquor laws don't help (but are NOT the only reason). I don't know much about it, but sometimes I think the grocery distribution lobby in OK also has something to do with this issue, too.

Overall: everyone on this board has speculated for the reasons why we can't attract national upscale grocery chains, but nobody can agree with certainty on the overall cause. I'll air on the side of pessimism and say I just doubt we'll get a TJ any time soon.

soonerguru
12-12-2009, 01:29 PM
I don't know much about it, but sometimes I think the grocery distribution lobby in OK also has something to do with this issue, too.

Bingo.

bluedogok
12-12-2009, 10:24 PM
I sure hope you're right stlokc, and you're right, it is a lousy reason on its own, but I just have a feeling its another tick against us. I've become discouraged in general. When we can't even keep Albertson's here and have to beg borrow cheat and steal to get a WF to even consider opening one store, when their headquarters are 6 hours down the road and it seems every other city has one; when I see a map like that, I honestly just say "forget it". I am surprised about Texas though to be honest, since the big cities have such a healthy-support for the upscale or trendy grocery concept. Plus I'm sure our liquor laws don't help (but are NOT the only reason). I don't know much about it, but sometimes I think the grocery distribution lobby in OK also has something to do with this issue, too.

Overall: everyone on this board has speculated for the reasons why we can't attract national upscale grocery chains, but nobody can agree with certainty on the overall cause. I'll air on the side of pessimism and say I just doubt we'll get a TJ any time soon.
Albertson's closed all over the country and pretty much have only stayed open in a few select markets like Dallas, their closing had more to do with their company being leveraged to the hilt and competition than it had to do with markets. HEB down here pretty much drove them out of Central and South Texas, they couldn't come close to competing and all of them closed in the Austin area. I know my dad wishes HEB would open up there after going to the stores down here.

I've always wondered why Safeway hasn't come back into the state or Kroger's hasn't moved in. My sister went to Kroger most of the time when she lived in Little Rock, we have Safeway down here under the Randall's name, in DFW they operate under the Tom Thumb name.

CCOKC
12-13-2009, 12:30 AM
In Boise ID the Kroger's brand is called Fred Meyer. It is kind of like a Wal-Mart supercenter in that is had furniture and bedding, jewelry and such. It had a larger selections of bulk items and the stores were definitely nicer than anything we have here. It just didn't have certain items that I was used to here e.g. pecans (have you ever tried to cook Christmas dinner without pecans?) peter pan peanut butter, Sister Shubert's rolls (yum) and Luzianne tea. All of us southerners would have large suitcases full of staples when we came back and would share with all the others who were missing our staples.

flintysooner
12-13-2009, 06:51 AM
Trader Joes is owned by one of the Albrecht brothers (trust actually) who own Aldi's (Albrecht Discount). Rather wealthy owner as in Theo, who owns Trader Joe's, is ranked at number 9 in the world.

The founder of Trader Joe's, Joe Coulombe, is quoted as saying he built the chain on wine first. They have an exclusive wine of some notoriety and are known for a large selection of California wines at least in the California stores.

bluedogok
12-13-2009, 10:35 AM
Yeah, Kroger and Safeway operates stores under many different names, Kroger in Denver is under the King Soopers name.

jstanthrnme
12-13-2009, 10:44 AM
Trader Joes is owned by one of the Albrecht brothers (trust actually) who own Aldi's (Albrecht Discount). Rather wealthy owner as in Theo, who owns Trader Joe's, is ranked at number 9 in the world.

The founder of Trader Joe's, Joe Coulombe, is quoted as saying he built the chain on wine first. They have an exclusive wine of some notoriety and are known for a large selection of California wines at least in the California stores.

I didn't know this, but it doesn't suprise me from the stores I've been in.

A wine that they are known for is Charles Shaw, or "Two Buck Chuck" that runs $2.50-$2.99 a bottle.

soonerguru
12-13-2009, 10:57 AM
I've heard that about the wine in TJ's as well, one more knock against them coming to OKC.

krisb
12-13-2009, 12:31 PM
That's a silly argument, no offense. They are in St. Louis and New Mexico already, and are rumored to be coming to Kansas City. Are you saying that because they are not already in Texas, that means they are actively boycotting the plains states? I see no justification for that argument. In my opinion, Trader Joes would be a good fit for OKC, their prices and goods are a happy medium between Homeland and Whole Foods.

Look at their distribution of stores. There is obviously a trend towards staying away from this part of the country. That may change in the future, but for now I think it's safe to say that Trader Joe's does not see this part of the country as profitable to them.

stlokc
12-13-2009, 02:16 PM
KrisB-Well, there's no way of knowing who is right. If you are right, then just keep in mind that things change. I am reminded of a family acquaintance who, at one point, tried to buy the franchise rights to Sonic Drive-Ins in one of the upper Midwest states, only to be told that the chain would never go north of Missouri "due to the weather." Well, today there are Sonics in New York, Michigan, Wisconsin, etc.
I have to assume that if Trader Joe's is interested in continuing to grow their business, they will eventually look at unserved markets. But the more salient point is the liquor question. We have to get those laws liberalized.

Pete
12-15-2009, 01:38 PM
LOVE Trader Joe's -- way more than Whole Foods.

Both have their places, as WF is much more expensive with more extensive deli and meat departments.

But TJ's has fantastic prices on lots of very unique and interesting things.

I shop at Trader Joe's every couple of weeks while I only go to WF about once or twice a year.

Celebrator
12-15-2009, 08:07 PM
I too love TJ's and WF, but we just moved here and are VERY pleased and PROUD to support the Oklahoma Food Cooperative. Check it out Oklahoma Food Cooperative - Local Food, Local Farmers - Farmer's Market, Natural, organic, health, sustainable, locally grown, meat, vegetables, nuts, produce, bread (http://www.oklahomafood.coop/) and spread the word! A little bit more expensive, but you are supporting the state's local producers and therefore our collective economy.

MsProudSooner
12-16-2009, 02:08 PM
A friend of mine loves Trader Joe's. One of their managers told her that Trader Joe's wouldn't move to Oklahoma until the liquor laws were changed.

Personally, I like Market Street in Dallas better than Whole Foods. But, I don't think we'll get any of these fine stores (other than the Whole Foods that Tulsa already has) until the liquor laws are changed. Wine is a huge profit item for them and they won't come here until they can sell it.

betts
12-17-2009, 08:47 AM
I still think, if you can legally do here what's been done in other states, we could have one of these stores. In New York, IIRC, there are two separate doors for the grocery store and the liquor store with a wall dividing them. It's in essence two separate stores, but all within one complete building.

bluedogok
12-17-2009, 09:03 AM
Basically with the liquor store licensing laws, they would have to have a separate operator "leasing" the space next to their store, they would have to do that at every store which in effect would largely exclude them to the profits from said store. They would also have to buy from Oklahoma wholesalers and not national wholesalers or directly from wineries and such. I know many like to blame the "religious influence" for the liquor laws and while that might have been partially to blame when prohibition was repealed they haven't been able to stop much in regards to alcohol or gambling in the past 20 years. The resisting force now is the liquor distributors and liquor store lobby that wants to keep things as they are because it serves their interests to keep out large, national alcohol retailers.

MsProudSooner
12-17-2009, 12:39 PM
It's very frustrating. I'm not as familiar with the grocery stores in OKC, but in Tulsa, Reasor's is the only one that comes close to Kroger or Tom Thumb.

I've heard that about the liquor lobby before. The local wine industry hasn't been too happy with them, either.

betts
12-17-2009, 02:44 PM
Basically with the liquor store licensing laws, they would have to have a separate operator "leasing" the space next to their store, they would have to do that at every store which in effect would largely exclude them to the profits from said store. They would also have to buy from Oklahoma wholesalers and not national wholesalers or directly from wineries and such. I know many like to blame the "religious influence" for the liquor laws and while that might have been partially to blame when prohibition was repealed they haven't been able to stop much in regards to alcohol or gambling in the past 20 years. The resisting force now is the liquor distributors and liquor store lobby that wants to keep things as they are because it serves their interests to keep out large, national alcohol retailers.

Now that IS annoying. I don't know how one could ever fight a lobby like that.

Pete
12-17-2009, 03:15 PM
Not only does it definitely affect attracting some very much desired retailers, it's a serious inconvenience to the consumer.

The present laws serve no one but liquor store owners. Why should we put their interests ahead of virtually everyone else's?

Fastfwd
12-23-2009, 04:28 PM
I walked through a Trader Joes in Vegas and wasn’t overwhelmed….. .personally, I’d love to have a Central Market by HEB, but I’m sure there is no way it would be supported here….

I marvel at the olives at Central Market….....the whole place really is just incredible.

Pete
12-23-2009, 05:18 PM
For the longest time, I was not overly impressed with TJ's.

It takes a while to figure it out but once you do, you'll become a huge fan. So many interesting items and most are a bargain.

zachj7
08-13-2012, 10:36 AM
Any news at all about a Trader Joes?

Pete
08-13-2012, 10:39 AM
An article last week said they were actively looking for sites in OKC.

Skyline
08-13-2012, 10:54 AM
Keep in mind that TJ's is only now making it's way into Dallas.

Soonerman
08-13-2012, 02:53 PM
Keep in mind that TJ's is only now making it's way into Dallas.

Yep they just opened a store in Ft Worth.

wallbreaker
08-13-2012, 03:23 PM
I've always felt it was just a matter of time and market visibility. They're opening one up in Salt Lake City (which has more restrictive liquor laws than us) and they've got tons of locations in Kansas, Maryland, Massachusetts, New Jersey, and Pennsylvania which don't sell beer, liquor, or wine.

BG918
08-13-2012, 08:57 PM
They also have stores in Omaha and Kansas City, and are opening their first stores in the Denver/Boulder area later next year. So with Dallas and Austin getting them soon Oklahoma will literally be surrounded. And the alcohol point is moot as evidenced by stores in Salt Lake City, Overland Park and Denver/Boulder (Colorado only allows 1 store in a chain to sell high point beer and wine).

bluedogok
09-13-2012, 10:45 PM
The Denver store will be the one with alcohol, the Boulder one will not.

Denver Business Journal - Trader Joe's confirms it's coming to Denver (http://www.bizjournals.com/denver/news/2012/09/12/trader-joes.html)

BG918
09-18-2012, 08:17 PM
The Denver store will be the one with alcohol, the Boulder one will not.

Denver Business Journal - Trader Joe's confirms it's coming to Denver (http://www.bizjournals.com/denver/news/2012/09/12/trader-joes.html)

Very strange law. The Whole Foods in Boulder has the strong beer and wine and the ones in Denver do not. Super Target in Glendale (SE Denver) does though. If Oklahoma had this law there would be a huge fight over which city, OKC or Tulsa, would get the 1 store with strong beer/wine...

bille
09-25-2012, 10:50 AM
Basically with the liquor store licensing laws, they would have to have a separate operator "leasing" the space next to their store, they would have to do that at every store which in effect would largely exclude them to the profits from said store. They would also have to buy from Oklahoma wholesalers and not national wholesalers or directly from wineries and such. I know many like to blame the "religious influence" for the liquor laws and while that might have been partially to blame when prohibition was repealed they haven't been able to stop much in regards to alcohol or gambling in the past 20 years. The resisting force now is the liquor distributors and liquor store lobby that wants to keep things as they are because it serves their interests to keep out large, national alcohol retailers.

Exactly and TJ's makes a lot off of beer/wine sells. Perhaps (like most of us here) are thinking those laws will be changed in the future.


Not only does it definitely affect attracting some very much desired retailers, it's a serious inconvenience to the consumer.

The present laws serve no one but liquor store owners. Why should we put their interests ahead of virtually everyone else's?

OK has so many laws regarding alcohol that need to be changed, done away with, or modified it's actually overwhelming knowing where to start. What's in the state's best interest? What will help the economy the most? What will be the easiest to Pass?

Honestly, making changes to give parity across the board between distillers, wineries and breweries would help in bringing more of those businesses (breweries/distilleries mainly) to the area. Does it really make sense that a winery can have a tasting room but a brewery can't? Of course not and it's those laws that keep breweries from expanding into our state.

Refrigeration is another big dumb law that needs to change and it could very well be that one that changes prior to allowing 'high abv' beverages into the grocers. Those laws mainly benefit the distributors and any joe shmo that wants to open a liquor store just to make money but could care less about truly knowing/loving/properly caring for the products they sell. THOSE are the small 'Mom & Pop' stores that will be on the losing end of alcohol laws lessening, the good stores will prosper.

The million dollar question is when will this happen. I HOPE that chains like WF and TJ coming to OK this will hurry up the process.

bchris02
09-25-2012, 02:00 PM
Exactly and TJ's makes a lot off of beer/wine sells. Perhaps (like most of us here) are thinking those laws will be changed in the future.



OK has so many laws regarding alcohol that need to be changed, done away with, or modified it's actually overwhelming knowing where to start. What's in the state's best interest? What will help the economy the most? What will be the easiest to Pass?

Honestly, making changes to give parity across the board between distillers, wineries and breweries would help in bringing more of those businesses (breweries/distilleries mainly) to the area. Does it really make sense that a winery can have a tasting room but a brewery can't? Of course not and it's those laws that keep breweries from expanding into our state.

Refrigeration is another big dumb law that needs to change and it could very well be that one that changes prior to allowing 'high abv' beverages into the grocers. Those laws mainly benefit the distributors and any joe shmo that wants to open a liquor store just to make money but could care less about truly knowing/loving/properly caring for the products they sell. THOSE are the small 'Mom & Pop' stores that will be on the losing end of alcohol laws lessening, the good stores will prosper.

The million dollar question is when will this happen. I HOPE that chains like WF and TJ coming to OK this will hurry up the process.

The refrigeration issue is what I want I see changed the most. It really doesn't bother me that you can't buy wine in grocery stores because OKC has some nice liquor stores that have more selection than most grocery stores do in other states. What I want is to be able to buy high point beer cold.

One thing the state could look into as far as wine goes is allowing Oklahoma wines to be sold on groceries but other wines confined to liquor stores. That would benefit our state's economy because it would help local wineries but also not reduce the importance of the liquor stores.

bille
09-25-2012, 04:43 PM
The refrigeration issue is what I want I see changed the most. It really doesn't bother me that you can't buy wine in grocery stores because OKC has some nice liquor stores that have more selection than most grocery stores do in other states. What I want is to be able to buy high point beer cold.

One thing the state could look into as far as wine goes is allowing Oklahoma wines to be sold on groceries but other wines confined to liquor stores. That would benefit our state's economy because it would help local wineries but also not reduce the importance of the liquor stores.

I agree with the refrigeration. It's so important there are a lot of breweries that refuse (and will continue to refuse) to deliver to our state until this passes. Beer specifically isn't meant to sit warm and it prematurely ages the product so much faster then at fridge temps you probably wouldn't believe it. The problem is most people think those that want refrigerated product is so they can go out into the parking lot and do beer bongs...or have a 12pk of cold ones for the 2 mile drive to the house, not that it is preferred that the beer be as fresh and handled as best as possible. It's those that prefer a light tasteless lager or rather the cheapest beer they can find are the ones that need to be watched for. Allowing refrigeration at the liquor stores is a must and wouldn't have any affect on people going out and drinking/driving. If people are going to drink and drive, having cold beer versus having to put the beer on ice for 5-10 minutes before they drink it isn't changing anything. That argument is dumb and they need to let it go.

Not sure how they could legally allow local wineries to sell here and not imported ones. Moreover, how would they define it? There are some wineries in the state that have the wine made out of state. Then they ship it in and slap their label on it and sell it as their own. Seems like a hard thing to regulate when they could just allow all wineries into the grocers and the local folks could capitalize (if they wanted) on being able to sell their product for less. Honestly though, being a beer guy I'm partial to beer and the wineries already get 'special treatment' that breweries don't. With beer, I'm fine with visiting my local bottle shop for my shopping list and the same goes for wine, I just wish I wasn't limited to selection because somebody thinks I'm so irresponsible I can't wait until I'm out from behind the wheel of my vehicle before I start drinking it.

RodH
09-26-2012, 08:37 PM
I doubt that the liquor stores would be in favor of refrigerated products due to the cost of updating their stores to be competitive with retailers that already have that expense.

bluedogok
09-26-2012, 09:48 PM
Some liquor store owners would like to add refrigeration but I think the vast majority do not. Reach in coolers are not that expensive and there are always used ones available but that doesn't keep a bunch of people from blocking progress. I also think the "cold, low point beer" lobby has much to do with liquor stores adding refrigeration.

bille
09-27-2012, 09:46 AM
Some liquor store owners would like to add refrigeration but I think the vast majority do not. Reach in coolers are not that expensive and there are always used ones available but that doesn't keep a bunch of people from blocking progress. I also think the "cold, low point beer" lobby has much to do with liquor stores adding refrigeration.
It's an added expense sure but it wouldn't be one they HAD to take on it'd just be in their best interest. Some places are so small I'm not sure they would even have the room to add much anyway. That said, there are few certain stores (the best ones obviously) that would be installing refrigeration the very second they could. The hardest part for them would be how much to do. There's a store we visit down in Texas that has a pretty good selection and no lie, 90% (or more perhaps) of their beer is refrigerated as soon as it arrives. The owner told me he spends $5k a month on his electric and most of that is because of all the coolers. Obviously that's on the extreme end for a smaller mom/pop but it's his choice to do so and it should be everybody's choice. Again, teaching those opposed that the end goal is to have a better product is going to be the hard part here.

Who are you referring to when you say 'cold, low point beer lobby'?

'Low point beer' that's another prohibition term that's outdated and doesn't really make any sense(actually it didn't back in '33 either but it served to get alcohol flowing in the US again and most everybody wanted that so it didn't take much) . By definition, low point is anything 3.2%ABW (4.0% ABV) or less. So, a beer can be 4.1% ABV and considered 'high point'. Dumb. Actually, now that I think about it, it may be easier just to do away with that term and then just put a cap (up high) on ABV to keep spirits out of the grocers...sure seems like it would be less trouble.

bluedogok
09-27-2012, 10:29 PM
Who are you referring to when you say 'cold, low point beer lobby'?
The distributors of what you can buy in grocery and convenience stores. Some of them don't distribute anything "stronger" than those products and having a monopoly on a certain market segment makes them happy.

We still have 3.2 beer in grocery stores here in Colorado (except for the one store liquor license as discussed previously) and it changing it comes up every legislative session but the same type of lobbyists block any meaningful reform to liquor laws just like in Oklahoma. One difference here is the number of large micro breweries, many are bumping up against the threshold of how much they can make a year and still have a microbrew tavern/restaurant. Getting over a certain threshold would require them to distribute everything through the three tier system and that triggers some different tax implications as well.

bille
10-01-2012, 10:07 AM
The distributors of what you can buy in grocery and convenience stores. Some of them don't distribute anything "stronger" than those products and having a monopoly on a certain market segment makes them happy.

We still have 3.2 beer in grocery stores here in Colorado (except for the one store liquor license as discussed previously) and it changing it comes up every legislative session but the same type of lobbyists block any meaningful reform to liquor laws just like in Oklahoma. One difference here is the number of large micro breweries, many are bumping up against the threshold of how much they can make a year and still have a microbrew tavern/restaurant. Getting over a certain threshold would require them to distribute everything through the three tier system and that triggers some different tax implications as well.
Hmm, I was under the assumption that the distributors handled all percentages and their only limiting factor was the brands they carried. Perhaps they have the market cornered (for now) but that sure seems to be putting all their eggs in one basket.

The lack of brewpubs IMO in OK is due to the inability to produce beer in excess of 3.2ABW, if they plan on self-distributing anyway. If they go through a distributor they could produce higher abv beers but there are hoops to jump through that cost more time, money, hassle, etc.

I have to wonder how much influence (if any) TX distributors may have on legislation being stalled here in OK. North Texas, not to mention other surrounding states, could stand to loose a lot of revenue if laws were changed here in OK. Not only are there groups of craft beer fans traveling out of state for beer unavailable here there are just as many (if not more) BMC fans doing the same so they can get their hands on some 'Texas Six Point!'. Those guys in TX certainly love that misunderstanding and how gullible people are that they wouldn't spend 5 minutes online to verify what they are getting isn't twice as strong. Of course most of those same people think higher abv=better beer too.

Oh man, it saddens me when I think of how much our state still has to learn, especially if we ever expect to get any of these archaic laws changed or abolished.

bluedogok
10-07-2012, 06:30 PM
More screwed up liquor laws and bureaucrats run amok....

Denver Post - Beer stops flowing at Crooked Stave barrel room over licensing issue (http://blogs.denverpost.com/beer/2012/09/24/beer-stops-flowing-crooked-stave-barrel-room/6220/)

bchris02
10-07-2012, 09:19 PM
Hmm, I was under the assumption that the distributors handled all percentages and their only limiting factor was the brands they carried. Perhaps they have the market cornered (for now) but that sure seems to be putting all their eggs in one basket.

The lack of brewpubs IMO in OK is due to the inability to produce beer in excess of 3.2ABW, if they plan on self-distributing anyway. If they go through a distributor they could produce higher abv beers but there are hoops to jump through that cost more time, money, hassle, etc.

I have to wonder how much influence (if any) TX distributors may have on legislation being stalled here in OK. North Texas, not to mention other surrounding states, could stand to loose a lot of revenue if laws were changed here in OK. Not only are there groups of craft beer fans traveling out of state for beer unavailable here there are just as many (if not more) BMC fans doing the same so they can get their hands on some 'Texas Six Point!'. Those guys in TX certainly love that misunderstanding and how gullible people are that they wouldn't spend 5 minutes online to verify what they are getting isn't twice as strong. Of course most of those same people think higher abv=better beer too.

Oh man, it saddens me when I think of how much our state still has to learn, especially if we ever expect to get any of these archaic laws changed or abolished.

Most "6 point" beer isn't 6 point. Most of your mass produced domestics in other states are around 4.0 or a little higher and craft beers are between 5.0 and 6.0. In Oklahoma, if you are drinking Bud, Bud Light, Coors, etc, you aren't getting a much different product at 3.2 abw than you are in other states. Where you can really tell the difference is imports/microbrews.

bille
10-07-2012, 09:53 PM
Most "6 point" beer isn't 6 point. Most of your mass produced domestics in other states are around 4.0 or a little higher and craft beers are between 5.0 and 6.0. In Oklahoma, if you are drinking Bud, Bud Light, Coors, etc, you aren't getting a much different product at 3.2 abw than you are in other states. Where you can really tell the difference is imports/microbrews.

Correct. Although in my previous posts about 'Texas six point' I didn't mention I was being facetious, I was hoping that was obvious. I'm well aware of the alcohol contents of most beer styles (regardless of where they are brewed) due to being a brewer for over five years now, as well as just being a beer geek in general, whether it's drinking beer, talking about it or reading about it and it's history, I'm very much interested. Moreover, a pet peeve of mine is people that speak incorrectly of beer or beer laws so chances are, if there's a beer thread here I'm lurking waiting to chime in when I feel compelled.

GaryOKC6
02-27-2013, 03:47 PM
I just heard that Trader Joes is probibly going into the Crescent Market space at Nichols hills Plaza. One of the merchants there told me this.

mcca7596
02-27-2013, 03:58 PM
I wonder how Whole Foods will feel about Chesapeake bringing in direct competition (I acknowledge there is a slightly different price point/focus for TJ vs. WF, but still). It must speak to Trader Joe's confidence in the market though if they go there and feel like they can get the same market share as opposed to if they went up on Memorial or down in Norman, etc...

Pete
02-27-2013, 04:01 PM
This may be Aubrey's last hurrah...

He's set to step down very soon and perhaps he wanted to make this deal as one of his last bits of legacy.

If they are going into that spot, you can be sure they were given significant incentives, as was Whole Foods.

foodiefan
02-27-2013, 05:10 PM
Sprouts, WF, and TJs. . .this really "packs" that area with the kind of stores so much of the city is clamoring for. . .just glad I'm pretty close.

mcca7596
02-27-2013, 05:12 PM
It would be better if they were more spread out, so as to expose themselves to a wider range of people.

sooner88
02-27-2013, 08:38 PM
True, but like Pete said he has little time left and this is probably his last chance to "right the wrong" that was done to NH Plaza and NH in general.

GaryOKC6
02-28-2013, 08:32 AM
I talked to someone at Chesapeake this morning. He confirmed that the deal has fallen apart since AM resigned. TJ's is looking at other locations.

adaniel
02-28-2013, 10:39 AM
I talked to someone at Chesapeake this morning. He confirmed that the deal has fallen apart since AM resigned. TJ's is looking at other locations.

By other locations, did they mean just somewhere else in the area?