^

Yes, I've heard many times that that Whole Foods has far surpassed projections and that they deeply regret not having built a larger store at that location. Yet, if not for a ridiculous incentive deal by Aubrey McClendon, they would not have even been in this market at this point.

That neighboring Anthroplogie is out-pacing the one in Utica Square as well; which is amazing given it's stand-alone location.

I've said all along that Trader Joe's would be more popular in OKC than Whole Foods and I'll stick by the prediction knowing that particular WF is blowing out their numbers.

And I bet the same would be true for Costco. Also, the Sprouts/Sunflower stores seem to be killing it as well.


OKC is *hungry* for grocery and retail options, that's for sure.

I completely agree. OKC defies formulas typically used by retailers when selecting locations. I have no doubt Trader Joe's, Costco, or even a real full-line grocery chain like Kroger or H-E-B would be a huge hit here. People here are ready for better options. Unfortunately convincing retailers to depart from their proven formula isn't easy without massive incentives so OKC too many times gets the short end of the stick.

Yes, Ive heard from knowledgeable people as well that Whole Foods is doing very good business. This seems to be the trend when new to OKC retailers open up their first store, that it exceeds all expectations.

Yes, I'm not aware of any new retailer coming in and not surpassing their projections, and the new outlet mall as a whole has gone wild.

I know Bass Pro did very well early on but don't know if their numbers have held up over time. Hard to believe they've been open for nine years!

Is there a factor they're missing in their formulas regarding the OKC market? Our overwhelming car-centricity (historicially)? Our highway capacity? Our sheer willingness to drive vast distances to get what we want, perhaps making the rooftop calculation irrelevant (1,3,5 mi)?

Is there a factor they're missing in their formulas regarding the OKC market? Our overwhelming car-centricity (historicially)? Our highway capacity? Our sheer willingness to drive vast distances to get what we want, perhaps making the rooftop calculation irrelevant (1,3,5 mi)?

Yes, as a commercial real estate broker, you try and sell chains on other aspects, such as low cost of living and disposable income.

There are really three groups that help to sell such attributes:

1. Real estate brokers. There are lots in every city that not only market existing properties for their owners, you call on chains not yet in town and try and talk them into coming. You'd be surprised how often new entrants to the market start in this manner. I brought in several myself.

2. Developers. They seek tenants and buyers for their properties by contacting them directly, especially those that have experience with these types of retailers.

3. The Chamber / Economic Alliance. OKC pays for a full-time position who does nothing but trying and attract retailers that are not already in OKC. Then, they work with others (like the Alliance) to help broker deals, incentives, etc. They also work directly with the two groups above.

^

Yes, I've heard many times that that Whole Foods has far surpassed projections and that they deeply regret not having built a larger store at that location. Yet, if not for a ridiculous incentive deal by Aubrey McClendon, they would not have even been in this market at this point.

That neighboring Anthroplogie is out-pacing the one in Utica Square as well; which is amazing given it's stand-alone location.

I've said all along that Trader Joe's would be more popular in OKC than Whole Foods and I'll stick by the prediction knowing that particular WF is blowing out their numbers.

And I bet the same would be true for Costco. Also, the Sprouts/Sunflower stores seem to be killing it as well.


OKC is *hungry* for grocery and retail options, that's for sure.

Pete, do you meet your expectation if TJ's opens up just up Western and WF's business plummets?

Here in Cleveland the WF/TJ's divide is the brand conscious vs. the cost conscious, but I have a sneaking suspicion even the wealthy Nichols Hills locals will be shopping more at TJ's because it will have a Nichols Hills address and because it's trendier.

Is there a factor they're missing in their formulas regarding the OKC market? Our overwhelming car-centricity (historicially)? Our highway capacity? Our sheer willingness to drive vast distances to get what we want, perhaps making the rooftop calculation irrelevant (1,3,5 mi)?

Yes, being able to drive to most areas of the metro in 15-20 minutes and high disposable income due to cost of living are usually the two biggest things you have to sell to a retailer.

Pete, do you meet your expectation if TJ's opens up just up Western and WF's business plummets?

Here in Cleveland the WF/TJ's divide is the brand conscious vs. the cost conscious, but I have a sneaking suspicion even the wealthy Nichols Hills locals will be shopping more at TJ's because it will have a Nichols Hills address and because it's trendier.

No, I would expect WF's to continue to thrive and that TJ's would be crazy successful as well.

They are really very different concepts, so much so that I never went into the Whole Foods a mile from me but now patronize the heck out of the TJ's that took over that location, so WF could move a mile down the road into a much bigger space.

I popped into TJ's last night, in fact! And I've only been into the new, monster WF once or twice in several years but keep in mind that there are lots of great grocery options out here and that I lived in OKC I would still love TJ's but probably go to Whole Foods a lot more than I do now.

Here in Cleveland the WF/TJ's divide is the brand conscious vs. the cost conscious, but I have a sneaking suspicion even the wealthy Nichols Hills locals will be shopping more at TJ's because it will have a Nichols Hills address and because it's trendier.

I'd shop there to support the sales tax base and to avoid crossing 63rd Street (my wife's car was crunched at 63rd & Grand last fall).

Pete, do you meet your expectation if TJ's opens up just up Western and WF's business plummets?

Here in Cleveland the WF/TJ's divide is the brand conscious vs. the cost conscious, but I have a sneaking suspicion even the wealthy Nichols Hills locals will be shopping more at TJ's because it will have a Nichols Hills address and because it's trendier.

I suspect Sprouts at 63rd and May would take the biggest hit.

I suspect Sprouts at 63rd and May would take the biggest hit.

I am not sure. Every time I go to that store it's so packed its difficult to get in and out of the parking lot and there are long waits at the cash registers. I love the store but dread it at the same time because of that. OKC could surely support more Sprout's locations.

I am not sure. Every time I go to that store it's so packed its difficult to get in and out of the parking lot and there are long waits at the cash registers. I love the store but dread it at the same time because of that. OKC could surely support more Sprout's locations.

Ditto. They've had crazy success here with the 63rd and May location. Of course, that's an incredible location for a store like that. I've heard Edmond's store is doing well too.

Definitely could support more of them. The Norman one is great too...and larger. I wish we had more Sprouts out there. It has a lot of the same things as Whole Foods, but without them being quite as high.

Ditto. They've had crazy success here with the 63rd and May location. Of course, that's an incredible location for a store like that. I've heard Edmond's store is doing well too.

I find the one in Edmond to have parking issues. A small lot and always busy. I wish they would have put it in a place with more parking. Edmond Marketplace would have been a good location.

I live at 21st and May and would love to see Sprout's replace Eley's Foods on NW 30th and May. I know it is too close to its current location, but I would like to see something better go in. I would like to see the whole shopping center redeveloped but I know the buildings are owned by seperate people.

I find the one in Edmond to have parking issues. A small lot and always busy. I wish they would have put it in a place with more parking. Edmond Marketplace would have been a good location.I've never really seen any parking issues. I actually kind of wish parking requirements were done away with and some very popular businesses had their lots 100% full so people can experience what big cities are truly like lol. . . But yeah, I've never once seen that lot full; although I know you can't park right at the front sometimes.

I've never really seen any parking issues. I actually kind of wish parking requirements were done away with and some very popular businesses had their lots 100% full so people can experience what big cities are truly like lol. . . But yeah, I've never once seen that lot full; although I know you can't park right at the front sometimes.

That's what "parking issues" amounts to around these parts. Not being able to pull up to the front & park. I see people pass up parking spaces because they're more in the middle or back than in the front & they'll continue to drive around looking for a spot up front & then they have the nerve to complain about there being no parking….

I'm not saying that's what FighttheGoodFight is saying, but just throwing in my $0.02 since you brought it up, Pluton.

That's what "parking issues" amounts to around these parts. Not being able to pull up to the front & park. I see people pass up parking spaces because they're more in the middle or back than in the front & they'll continue to drive around looking for a spot up front & then they have the nerve to complain about there being no parking….

I'm not saying that's what FighttheGoodFight is saying, but just throwing in my $0.02 since you brought it up, Pluton.

The three or four times I went I have to park over by Sherry's Drug store and walk over. Maybe it was the hours I went. This was all in the first six months it was open.

The one in Norman suffered the same fate as I usually parked across the street in the CiCi's parking lot and walked over. Very busy location. I think the Norman store benefits from having Cellar Liquor store next door as well.

I am a person who takes the first available spot (my wife hates it). I don't like to drive around for ever parking lot stalking.

It must be timing. I shop there weekly and that's one thing I like. Even the day before Christmas I was able to pull in and park right up front. I may just be very lucky.

I am a person who takes the first available spot (my wife hates it). I don't like to drive around for ever parking lot stalking.

I'm the same way. It's usually, overall, much faster to get the first spot you find rather than driving around searching for the closest.

That's what "parking issues" amounts to around these parts. Not being able to pull up to the front & park. I see people pass up parking spaces because they're more in the middle or back than in the front & they'll continue to drive around looking for a spot up front & then they have the nerve to complain about there being no parking….

I'm not saying that's what FighttheGoodFight is saying, but just throwing in my $0.02 since you brought it up, Pluton.yuup

The three or four times I went I have to park over by Sherry's Drug store and walk over. Maybe it was the hours I went. This was all in the first six months it was open.

The one in Norman suffered the same fate as I usually parked across the street in the CiCi's parking lot and walked over. Very busy location. I think the Norman store benefits from having Cellar Liquor store next door as well.

I am a person who takes the first available spot (my wife hates it). I don't like to drive around for ever parking lot stalking.well, I actually kind of like it when a parking lot is full and I have to park in another lot and walk over. I think it is fun in a way, but that's just me. Never would've thought it gets that busy, but again, I wouldn't mind it.

FYI: Parking in a lot that belongs to one business then walking across the street to another business is a good way to get towed.

I go to Costco for the big bulk items (pet food, some food and household stuff), Ralph's (Kroger) for general stuff and Trader Joe's for snacks, cheeses, wine and their specialty items.

Here are some of the things I love at TJ's:

Chili tortillas -- chunks of chili peppers
Frozen orange chicken
Frozen brown rice packets
Frozen gnochi
Tortilla chips -- huge bag, delicious and cheap
Several of their salsas and dips
All types of cheese -- great and cheap!
Specialty Thai and Indian simmer sauces
Some really interesting crackers and cookies
All types of seasonal items
Lots of great deserts

Pete, this gives some good examples about what you mean about their food selection.

11 Trader Joe's Products We Can't Live Without (http://www.yahoo.com/food/11-trader-joes-products-we-cant-live-without-72001464598.html)

I just heard today that the store may go in on the empty lot on the NE corner of 63rd and Grand. Rumor has it they want to face 63rd rather than be in the Plaza. If so, obviously they'll be a freestanding store. All rumor, of course.

I just heard today that the store may go in on the empty lot on the NE corner of 63rd and Grand. Rumor has it they want to face 63rd rather than be in the Plaza. If so, obviously they'll be a freestanding store. All rumor, of course.

I have never seen a freestanding Trader Joe's. Usually they are always a part of another development. The location in the Plaza looks perfect for them. It looks very much like the locations I've seen in other places. I can see why they would want to be on 63rd though because of better visibility.

I just heard today that the store may go in on the empty lot on the NE corner of 63rd and Grand. Rumor has it they want to face 63rd rather than be in the Plaza. If so, obviously they'll be a freestanding store. All rumor, of course.

The NE/4 currently has an office building located on it, but I do believe it just changed hands a couple of months ago. I'm thinking you are describing the property just east of this building that used to be apartments??? Is that lot large enough for the store and parking?

The NE/4 currently has an office building located on it, but I do believe it just changed hands a couple of months ago. I'm thinking you are describing the property just east of this building that used to be apartments??? Is that lot large enough for the store and parking?

Trader Joe's aren't very large stores. They are about the size of a typical Aldi if not slightly bigger. If it is freestanding, it should fit on that lot.

http://www.johnmeyerconsulting.com/images/done-retail-traderjoes.jpg

The NE/4 currently has an office building located on it, but I do believe it just changed hands a couple of months ago. I'm thinking you are describing the property just east of this building that used to be apartments??? Is that lot large enough for the store and parking?

Yes, that's the one. I have no idea if there's enough room for parking.

I have never seen a freestanding Trader Joe's. Usually they are always a part of another development. The location in the Plaza looks perfect for them. It looks very much like the locations I've seen in other places. I can see why they would want to be on 63rd though because of better visibility.

I only went to it a couple of times, but I am pretty sure the Trader Joe's I used to live by in DC was freestanding. Just looked it up on google maps and it looks like it is.

Pretty sure the one by Sid in Seattle is standalone as well. When I visited (the last time he went to Seattle) we didn't go in, but walked by it several times. Don't remember it being part of anything else.

Below is an aerial showing the office building Chesapeake just sold in yellow and adjacent land still owned by CHK in pink. TJ's would need more than just the yellow area, as they are crazy busy and require tons of parking, which I bet is why they rarely do free-standing buildings.

That yellow lot is only .6 acres and it sold for $1.8 million (big loss to CHK) and with the need to add more land, I don't see any way this deal would make business sense. Plus, it would still leave a large hole where Crescent and the drug store used to be, and who is going to fill it?

http://www.okctalk.com/images/pete/traderjoes1.jpg

That office building on the NE/C sold - as Pete said - recently to a Texas-based group, along with a building a short distance south on Grand Boulevard, what used to be the headquarters of Joy Reed Belt.

This site at 63rd & Grand would hardly be large enough for a modern convenience store selling gasoline. Also, I don't know if street-facing retail on 63rd would be embraced by NH. I would like to see this little office building eventually torn down and become part of a larger development integrating the grass parcel to the east and the older condominiums & apartments to the north and northeast. That would be a big, complex, mixed-use development, but the right group would find a receptive NH city hall, especially after the past decade.

I have never seen a freestanding Trader Joe's. Usually they are always a part of another development. The location in the Plaza looks perfect for them. It looks very much like the locations I've seen in other places. I can see why they would want to be on 63rd though because of better visibility.

The TJ off of Memorial in Cambridge MA is freestanding

this is the back of the trader joe's in dallas on greenville. it's stand-alone and this is their parking lot.

http://www.dallasnews.com/incoming/20130808-traderjoes_jump.jpg.ece/BINARY/w620x413/traderjoes_JUMP.jpg

The stand-alone TJ's out here frequently have cars backing up into the street, waiting for a space.

It's so bad that I hate even driving by those stores and absolutely never go in them.

I understand and appreciate Pete's explanation from earlier in the thread about of why out-of-state, risk-averse CRE pros would cluster a Trader Joe's near a Whole Foods (and a mile from a Sprout's). But as a local, I don't care; that still seems really stupid to me.

I'd put it on (1) Broadway, around 13th St. or so, (2) 23rd street, somewhat close to Broadway or (3) SE corner of NW 36th and Western. It'd kill in any of those places. In fact, even if they do put a Trader Joes in Nichols Hills, I'd put another one in either of the first two locations, and it would still do well.

Option 3 is very intriguing to me. Hadn't considered that one before...

They will certainly have multiple locations, especially since they are smaller stores.

Here's how they could be distributed:

1. 63rd & Western
2. Midtown / Downtown
3. NW Expressway & Rockwell
4. Memorial and May
5. I-240 Penn
6. Norman
7. Edmond

Dan, I haven't done grocery site selection before, but I don't think Broadway at 13th or 23rd would work because both are on the geographic edge of their target customer, although 13th Street a little less-so. The killer site for my money would be either NH Plaza or the Midtown area bounded by 10th, 13th, Walker & Robinson.

What are the boundaries of Nichols Hills? Could they put it on the SE/C of 63rd and Grand where that office buiding used to be facing north so they still have 63rd street frontage?

I-240 and Penn would be exciting for me!

They will certainly have multiple locations, especially since they are smaller stores.

Here's how they could be distributed:

1. 63rd & Western
2. Midtown / Downtown
3. NW Expressway & Rockwell
4. Memorial and May
5. I-240 Penn
6. Norman
7. Edmond

I really wish they would clear out the strip shopping center on the SE/C of 23rd and May and put it there. Then I could walk to it instead of driving to Sprouts.

What are the boundaries of Nichols Hills? Could they put it on the SE/C of 63rd and Grand where that office buiding used to be facing north so they still have 63rd street frontage?

Nichols Hills is only north of 63rd.

Also, I know there are covenants in the Whole Foods lease that prohibits most food businesses from that entire area.

They will certainly have multiple locations, especially since they are smaller stores.

Here's how they could be distributed:

1. 63rd & Western
2. Midtown / Downtown
3. NW Expressway & Rockwell
4. Memorial and May
5. I-240 Penn
6. Norman
7. Edmond

I have no idea about the zoning of this parcel of land, but there is a location on Penn just north of 150th I thought would make a great location for Trader Joe's - TONS of rooftops within walking distance, not that anyone would, and on a main thoroughfare. In my perfect world, the building would be pushed to the sidewalk and parking in back and have space for a couple specialty shops. This goes again my normal preference to fill empty strip malls before building new ones, but that location seems perfect.

KC only has two. I don't think we will have more than 2 for a while. Only other reason would be to have one in Norman and Edmond but that's unlikely. I bet they start with 1 for a while.

Interesting exchange on Steve's chat this morning...

Comment From Sooner Than Later: Last week you mentioned your sources telling you that Aubrey cleared out the wrong spot at NHP in relation to a future store (Trader Joes). Are you able to clarify where in NHP a better spot is for a store than what is currently available.

Steve Lackmeyer: Don't be surprised if Trader Joe's opens up in another section of Nichols HIlls Plaza.

That would point to the west side, SW of Ruth Meyers & Cool Greens, NW of CK&Co. The parking and ingress/egress is certainly better.

That would point to the west side, SW of Ruth Meyers & Cool Greens, NW of CK&Co. The parking and ingress/egress is certainly better.


You mean the building on the far west side of the southern section, that runs north and south?

TJ's needs at least 8,000 square feet... Is there enough vacant space in that building?

Of course, they could easily move some of the existing tenants. I know there is a dry cleaners and some other things there.

http://www.okctalk.com/images/pete/nhplazanew1.jpg


http://www.okctalk.com/images/pete/nhplazanew2.jpg

Everyone in that building is gone except for a couple of small office users at the north.

C'mon, Pete, you're a big data guy. Don't you have this square footage in one of your Cray Supercomputers somewhere?

The building is certainly big enough, I was just wondering about vacancy.

Last time I was there (and took that first photo) there was a dry cleaners and some other tenants, as you can see by the cars out front.

Did they move them all out recently? And if so, where did they go?


And BTW, with a TJ's that parking lot is going to be absolutely slammed.

I'm hearing that NH Plaza is set to close by the end of the month, and I bet we'll see a deal with Trader Joe's announced almost immediately.

Selling to an out of state investor, by the way.

Not sure if this also includes Classen Curve.

the TJs i've been to in cali, ft worth and denver have all been freestanding. schaumberg, il and (obviously) NYC have not.

great prepared salads, as i picked up a couple for my wife and i for lunch in nyc last week. also, a good selection of whole bean coffee.

i'm looking forward to an anouncement

I'm hearing that NH Plaza is set to close by the end of the month, and I bet we'll see a deal with Trader Joe's announced almost immediately.

Selling to an out of state investor, by the way.

Not sure if this also includes Classen Curve.

I miss the old fashioned soda fountain in the drug store. I believe it was the last real soda fountain and grill in Oklahoma City. Thanks McClendon.

Yeah, now what becomes of all that space that Crescent Market and the drug store once occupied?

The Crescent space is big and deep and if not used for a grocery concept, I'm not sure who is going in there.


The City of NH had to raise prices for it's services due to the drastic decrease in sales tax revenue as well.


Chesapeake still owns scores of properties all around the plaza, including about 50 condos in the adjacent complexes they could never completely buy out.

Also, the gas stations and other small parcels on 63rd.

Trader Joe's doesn't require that much parking.

This is the first Trader Joe's that opened in San Antonio in the fall of 2012 at the Quarry Village.



Middle far left.
http://i.imgur.com/7yVzMBO.jpg

As you can see, TJ's (I) only has 72 parking spots.
http://i.imgur.com/wQWWhkI.png

http://i.imgur.com/YEZFR0B.png


This is the second San Antonio Trader Joe's, being built in Stone Oak.
http://i.imgur.com/Bh5wYUi.png

http://i.imgur.com/04BFAwO.png
As you can see here, there are only 71 parking spaces intended for Trader Joe's.
http://i.imgur.com/rlZkeTz.png

And I agree with the poster that said if Trader Joe's does enter the market, OKC would only get two. In San Antonio, Trader Joe's has said they want to open 4 or 5. San Antonio is a metro of 2.3 million. 3 million and over metros seem to have between 7-10 stores. 2 million and under metros seem to have between 1 and 3 stores. The higher in the million range you are, the more likely its 3. Vegas at nearly two million have 4. SLC, only has 1. New Orleans, Memphis have none.

They only may have 70 or so dedicated parking spots (most likely dictated by local building code) but their customers will take way more than that when the store is busy.

It would be awesome if one day OKC could attract a mixed-use retail development like the one above. Most of the Trader Joe's locations I am familiar with are in that type of development.

The apartments in Quarry Village rent between $1.50 and $2.50 per sf per month.

The apartments in Quarry Village rent between $1.50 and $2.50 per sf per month.

If built in OKC, I am sure the prices could be brought down to something the market could support.

They only may have 70 or so dedicated parking spots (most likely dictated by local building code) but their customers will take way more than that when the store is busy.

TJ's has a way with dealing with it. I used to be afraid of parking there to the some of the one's I've been to, but it usually isn't too bad in my experience.

My guess is that Trader Joe's will be such an overwhelming success in OKC that there will be another location or two built. Once that happens, things should normalize in terms of parking.