View Full Version : Tulsans finally getting it?



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circuitboard
12-11-2009, 10:28 AM
Read some of the comments on this article, it appears Tulsans are now accepting the fact that OKC has left them in the dust.

Tulsa World: Oklahoma City police force welcomes 34 new officers (http://www.tulsaworld.com/news/article.aspx?subjectid=12&articleid=20091211_12_0_Withth116803)

fuzzytoad
12-11-2009, 10:47 AM
lol

yeah, and some of them almost look convincing. Especially "NotFromOKC"

hehe, when did we start trolling the Tulsa World?

Steve
12-11-2009, 11:09 AM
Be classy guys and don't gloat. Just listen, observe and learn.

circuitboard
12-11-2009, 11:13 AM
lol

yeah, and some of them almost look convincing. Especially "NotFromOKC"

hehe, when did we start trolling the Tulsa World?

LOL I didnít even notice that, that's silly. Yeah I wasnít going to leave comments in there, I just thought it was interesting that most of the comments were asking "what does okc do different?" usually they just bash. Also interesting the editor for Tulsaworld steps in later down the road and says well OKC has government jobs that is why OKC is stable.

BDP
12-11-2009, 11:23 AM
l OKC has government jobs that is why OKC is stable.

I don't know about that. Some of those government workers are pretty unstable. At least, the ones running it are...


Be classy guys and don't gloat.

Very true. I don't think we're out to try and impress Tulsa, anyway. We're just trying to create a nice place to live and visit, neither of which I think Tulsans would admit to be interested in doing, no matter what we do.

Platemaker
12-11-2009, 11:34 AM
This comment from edelweiss sums up Tulsan's superiority complex.

"No offense NotFromOKC. But "They are doing everything right and we can't do anything right!" Is WAY overstated. Maybe someday you'll be able to move there. Just hope you you don't mind not having any hills, big trees, and brown dirt."

BDP
12-11-2009, 11:38 AM
HA! I guess we'll never be able to compete with their brown dirt.
LOL!

Architect2010
12-11-2009, 03:08 PM
I hate how when they compare OKC to Tulsa, the biggest argument they have is the hills and trees. Cities have no control over natural scenery. If we did however, they know as well as us with the way they've been running things, they'd be the ones with the flat terrain and clay dirt.

Platemaker
12-11-2009, 03:36 PM
Even so... OKC is not flat and barren. When the state is touted as having the most diverse terrain in America... OKC is really the only place in the state that you can see that on a smaller scale. NE OKC is IN FACT lush, green and hilly... the NW is deffinatly gently rolling plains... west its flatter... go SW and you've literally got cactus and sage brush.

Thundercitizen
12-11-2009, 03:59 PM
Even so... OKC is not flat and barren. When the state is touted as having the most diverse terrain in America... OKC is really the only place in the state that you can see that on a smaller scale. NE OKC is IN FACT lush, green and hilly... the NW is deffinatly gently rolling plains... west its flatter... go SW and you've literally got cactus and sage brush....and less expensive construction.

Decious
12-11-2009, 04:24 PM
In a way. You can tell they're bothered by the passage of Maps3. The TulsaWorld buried the news of it's passage and the Tulsa media outlets totally ignored it.

As for the social media savvy citizens, they get it and have "gotten it" for some time now. Them owning up to that fact is a whole other achievement. As we speak they is a thread on Tulsanow that refers to OKC as OK****ty. It offers the excuse that we're only making strides because of government money. The same thread also infers that Maps3 is also a weak attempt on our part to actually catch up to TULSA. Also, according to the thread, Norman isn't a suburb of OKC.

To be honest, I don't know how much more we can expect and I, for one, don't care. Tulsans aren't as silly as they sound, and some of their citizens are indeed disappointed and disillusioned. If part of the way they cope w/ that is by putting this city down a bit, let them have it. It doesn't change anything here or there. It's more than obvious to anyone who is even remotely unbiased which city is more progressive and has a brighter future. That's a fact that is damn near undeniable and empirically justified. Tulsa "getting it" matters zero.

Please don't go to Tulsanow and "defend" this city. Please don't start bashing Tulsa in this thread. We've had enough of that over the past 3 months to last for at least a year or so. Well...at least until they announce that Bricktown's streetcar stop will be the one right by the Ford Center. Ha!

lasomeday
12-11-2009, 05:33 PM
Well, a lot of people can't handle it when other people succeed.

So, I take is as a compliment. The more they put us down, the more they want to have the citizen support and unity we have in our city/city government.

They also see more college grads from OU and OSU moving to OKC instead of Tulsa. They used to be the big draw in the state for college grads. Not anymore!

betts
12-11-2009, 05:40 PM
They also see more college grads from OU and OSU moving to OKC instead of Tulsa. They used to be the big draw in the state for college grads. Not anymore!

I think we're going to see a significant increase in the number that move here versus Tulsa as the MAPS projects, the Crosstown, Devon and the streetscaping start to progress significantly.

soonerguru
12-11-2009, 07:59 PM
The "hills and trees" worship is overblown. Yes, Tulsa has some, but the hills are not nearly as noticeable as in other cities.

I travel there frequently, and it is a decaying city for the most part. The downtown area is eerily quiet, somewhat vacant, and somewhat run down.

I love the Blue Dome district and other areas of Tulsa, but the city is crumbling.

They have a ratty convention center, a condemned downtown hotel property, an increasingly run-down Doubletree Hotel, etc. Their roads are in far worse shape than what we had in OKC even before repairs began here.

There are some beautiful neighborhoods there without a doubt, but it's not nearly the hilly, forested paradise it's portrayed to be.

soonerguru
12-11-2009, 08:03 PM
Also, according to the thread, Norman isn't a suburb of OKC.

While I generally agree with your post, I will take issue with this position. Norman is not a suburb. Edmond is a suburb. There's a big difference between the two. That many OKC workers choose to live in Norman and commute to OKC doesn't change this fact.

krisb
12-11-2009, 10:24 PM
While I generally agree with your post, I will take issue with this position. Norman is not a suburb. Edmond is a suburb. There's a big difference between the two. That many OKC workers choose to live in Norman and commute to OKC doesn't change this fact.

Based upon who's definition of a suburb?

circuitboard
12-11-2009, 11:28 PM
While I generally agree with your post, I will take issue with this position. Norman is not a suburb. Edmond is a suburb. There's a big difference between the two. That many OKC workers choose to live in Norman and commute to OKC doesn't change this fact.

Frisco is as far from Dallas as Norman is to OKC and my Dallas friends consider Frisco a suburb.....what is the difference?

Thundercitizen
12-11-2009, 11:30 PM
Simply check the MSA listing with the Census Bureau...suburb.

jbrown84
12-11-2009, 11:55 PM
Norman is a suburb. Sorry.

okcpulse
12-11-2009, 11:58 PM
While I generally agree with your post, I will take issue with this position. Norman is not a suburb. Edmond is a suburb. There's a big difference between the two. That many OKC workers choose to live in Norman and commute to OKC doesn't change this fact.

Ehh... Norman is a suburb, guru. By geopraphy and definition by the U.S Office of Management and Budget, it is. Aurora, Illinois is a suburb Chicago. Far out there, but it still is.

If Norman is not a suburb of OKC, subtract its population down to just over 1 million people/year, because MSAs go by counties.

Spartan
12-12-2009, 12:59 AM
"Don't Edmond my Norman."

and...

Don't Tulsa my Anything!

Urban Pioneer
12-12-2009, 08:41 AM
I was really quite shocked how buried our successful vote was in their paper. We often cover what they are doing with a little bit of pride in our "sister city". I think it is emblematic of the real disconnect that exists between the younger and older Tulsan's.

OUGrad05
12-12-2009, 09:03 AM
I was really quite shocked how buried our successful vote was in their paper. We often cover what they are doing with a little bit of pride in our "sister city". I think it is emblematic of the real disconnect that exists between the younger and older Tulsan's.

If it makes you feel any better our local tv news media covered MAPS3.

Tulsa sucks compared with OKC, but Tulsa does have a lot of potential...we'll see if the new Tulsa mayor can do anything worthwhile...I fear it will be more of the same :(

Urban Pioneer
12-12-2009, 09:16 AM
What exactly is the mayoral sitution there? How do people feel about Taylor, then this new guy? What is he promising?

soonerguru
12-12-2009, 12:48 PM
What exactly is the mayoral sitution there? How do people feel about Taylor, then this new guy? What is he promising?

UP, according to a lot of insiders I know there, Taylor would have been reelected if she had chosen to run again, despite the very vocal opposition.

Since Bartlett supported Taylor during her run, a lot of folks I know there don't believe much will change. I agree, but for different reasons.

The angry Tulsa folks think there's a plutocratic conspiracy running the city. They may be somewhat correct but the real problem is the factionalism.

The people in the suburbs there really don't give a whit about downtown. Also, they think their 'burbs are superior to the city despite the fact there would be no employment base there if the city weren't there.

A lot of the constituencies view the Midtown, elite class as the barons and baronesses who make all the decisions. Thus they are highly skeptical of their city governance. That won't change with Dewey Bartlett, Jr.

They also have a lot of ultra-conservative suburbanites and South Tulsans who don't believe in any kind of taxes, and who are so radical as to support the dissolution of public education, so they struggle passing any city improvement tax packages.

As much as I would like to see it change, I don't believe it will until OKC is visibly 100 percent better to even the most delusional Tulsan, and that may take another ten years. By that time, they will be very far behind and OKC will be working on MAPS 4.

OUGrad05
12-12-2009, 01:10 PM
What exactly is the mayoral sitution there? How do people feel about Taylor, then this new guy? What is he promising?I'll attempt to answer your questions while addressing soem of what soonerguru has posted...


UP, according to a lot of insiders I know there, Taylor would have been reelected if she had chosen to run again, despite the very vocal opposition.

Since Bartlett supported Taylor during her run, a lot of folks I know there don't believe much will change. I agree, but for different reasons.

The angry Tulsa folks think there's a plutocratic conspiracy running the city. They may be somewhat correct but the real problem is the factionalism.

The people in the suburbs there really don't give a whit about downtown. Also, they think their 'burbs are superior to the city despite the fact there would be no employment base there if the city weren't there.

A lot of the constituencies view the Midtown, elite class as the barons and baronesses who make all the decisions. Thus they are highly skeptical of their city governance. That won't change with Dewey Bartlett, Jr.

They also have a lot of ultra-conservative suburbanites and South Tulsans who don't believe in any kind of taxes, and who are so radical as to support the dissolution of public education, so they struggle passing any city improvement tax packages.

As much as I would like to see it change, I don't believe it will until OKC is visibly 100 percent better to even the most delusional Tulsan, and that may take another ten years. By that time, they will be very far behind and OKC will be working on MAPS 4.

I a not sure who you were talking to but most I know were not going to vote for Taylor again despite having voted for her initially. But really its all speculation since she chose not to run again. I am not sure she would have been re-elected.

Bartlett has basically received a city that is in disrepair and dealing with major corruption problems. However, he is part of the normal Tulsa political class so for this reason I am very skeptical of him changing much if anything. It is unfortunate the choices for mayor were so poor...but then again I could be and hope I am surprised in the long run with Bartlett's performance...

Sooner is correct if by factionalism he means major political factions (ie left and right) essentially being unwilling to work with eachother, which is what Tulsa has been dealing with for 15 years now. You have one group that wants a tax on everything and another group that will oppose any hint of any tax increase no matter how noble or justified it may be.

Actually people in the suburbs care about downtown tulsa, I do especially, since I work there, but most folks I talk to are pleased with the BOK center but very disappointed with the disjointed manner in which Tulsa has chosen to develop land within the IDL.

Sooner is exactly right about the elite class ruling tulsa and awarding major contracts to buddies/friends/family despite it costing the tax payers huge sums of money. Bartlett is part of this class and as a result viewed with skepticism (at least from me and many others I talk with).

Sooner is again right on the tax issues, but keep in mind many people are very skeptical given the corruption issues that have erupted in Tulsa over the past decade...you would be to if your money was spent/squandered/handed out in such an irresponsible manner.

I was hoping we'd have a couple of very different mayoral candidates pop up for Tulsa this time around, we did not. That means we have at least 4 more years (again I'm a bartlett skeptic, i could be proven wrong) before the city is truly moved in the right direction. I hope I am wrong as my wife and I both work in downtown Tulsa and love visiting some of the restaurants/pubs downtown. But the city has a long way to go to catchup with OKC or even make the forward progress on the scale OKC has seen the last 15 years.

MikeOKC
12-12-2009, 01:19 PM
I've listened to this argument for decades and am SO tired of it. I think we're lucky to have two great cities in this state. I've always found the bickering somewhat juvenile and like two competing high schools. Silly.

OUGrad05
12-12-2009, 01:25 PM
I've listened to this argument for decades and am SO tired of it. I think we're lucky to have two great cities in this state. I've always found the bickering somewhat juvenile and like two competing high schools. Silly.

They really should be cheering eachother on, unfortunately, at least up here in TTown thats not the case. There is a lot of disdain for OKC which is just silly in my opinion.

soonerguru
12-12-2009, 02:21 PM
I've listened to this argument for decades and am SO tired of it. I think we're lucky to have two great cities in this state. I've always found the bickering somewhat juvenile and like two competing high schools. Silly.

MikeOKC,

I for one would love to see Tulsa realize its amazing potential, but it is squandering. There is absolutely nothing juvenile about pointing this out.

On the other hand, it is my distinct impression, verified constantly by the clients I work with throughout the City of Tulsa, that there is a genuine resentment toward OKC. Ask an honest Tulsan and they will confirm it to you. There is a little bit of the "little brother" syndrome up there, which they try to mask with a very unconvincing superiority complex.

soonerguru
12-12-2009, 02:29 PM
I'll attempt to answer your questions while addressing soem of what soonerguru has posted...



I a not sure who you were talking to but most I know were not going to vote for Taylor again despite having voted for her initially. But really its all speculation since she chose not to run again. I am not sure she would have been re-elected.

Bartlett has basically received a city that is in disrepair and dealing with major corruption problems. However, he is part of the normal Tulsa political class so for this reason I am very skeptical of him changing much if anything. It is unfortunate the choices for mayor were so poor...but then again I could be and hope I am surprised in the long run with Bartlett's performance...

Sooner is correct if by factionalism he means major political factions (ie left and right) essentially being unwilling to work with eachother, which is what Tulsa has been dealing with for 15 years now. You have one group that wants a tax on everything and another group that will oppose any hint of any tax increase no matter how noble or justified it may be.

Actually people in the suburbs care about downtown tulsa, I do especially, since I work there, but most folks I talk to are pleased with the BOK center but very disappointed with the disjointed manner in which Tulsa has chosen to develop land within the IDL.

Sooner is exactly right about the elite class ruling tulsa and awarding major contracts to buddies/friends/family despite it costing the tax payers huge sums of money. Bartlett is part of this class and as a result viewed with skepticism (at least from me and many others I talk with).

Sooner is again right on the tax issues, but keep in mind many people are very skeptical given the corruption issues that have erupted in Tulsa over the past decade...you would be to if your money was spent/squandered/handed out in such an irresponsible manner.

I was hoping we'd have a couple of very different mayoral candidates pop up for Tulsa this time around, we did not. That means we have at least 4 more years (again I'm a bartlett skeptic, i could be proven wrong) before the city is truly moved in the right direction. I hope I am wrong as my wife and I both work in downtown Tulsa and love visiting some of the restaurants/pubs downtown. But the city has a long way to go to catchup with OKC or even make the forward progress on the scale OKC has seen the last 15 years.

It sounds like we largely agree, but I want to clarify a couple of points:

1. I believe the situation is so dire that whoever is mayor has to try out-of-the-box taxation approaches, because the citizen voters are so opposed to tax increases. Honestly, things were in dire shape when Taylor took over, and I'm not sure whose fault it is besides the citizens themselves. I know they blamed Taylor's two predecessors as well. The common denominator to the dysfunction is the citizens; I'm sure they'll be hating on the new mayor in short order, just as many were hating on Kathy. To his credit, it is possible in my mind that Bartlett will be a better conciliator than Taylor, which wouldn't take much (she's anything but a conciliator!)

2. I don't necessarily agree with the sentiment about the ruling class running Tulsa, but I acknowledged that many people, yourself included, believe this to be true.

3. Another issue you touched on is that Tulsa has partisan mayoral elections, and OKC doesn't. Looking at Tulsa's situation, this is obviously a terrible idea. My one and only knock on Cornett is that he pursued a partisan approach during his initial election. Who knows who the political advisor is who suggested this, but it was a moronic move that is potentially very detrimental going forward. Please, pray God, don't let this happen in OKC.

4. Regarding the suburban voters' support for Tulsa, while I'm sure there are many people like yourself who do support progressive initiatives to move Tulsa forward, the overall suburban vote has been opposed to these things, such as the river improvement vote a year or so ago.

OUGrad05
12-12-2009, 02:30 PM
MikeOKC,

I for one would love to see Tulsa realize its amazing potential, but it is squandering. There is absolutely nothing juvenile about pointing this out.

On the other hand, it is my distinct impression, verified constantly by the clients I work with throughout the City of Tulsa, that there is a genuine resentment toward OKC. Ask an honest Tulsan and they will confirm it to you. There is a little bit of the "little brother" syndrome up there, which they try to mask with a very unconvincing superiority complex.

This sums it up nicely.

OUGrad05
12-12-2009, 02:37 PM
It sounds like we largely agree, but I want to clarify a couple of points:

1. I believe the situation is so dire that whoever is mayor has to try out-of-the-box taxation approaches, because the citizen voters are so opposed to tax increases. Honestly, things were in dire shape when Taylor took over, and I'm not sure whose fault it is besides the citizens themselves. I know they blamed Taylor's two predecessors as well. The common denominator to the dysfunction is the citizens; I'm sure they'll be hating on the new mayor in short order, just as many were hating on Kathy. To his credit, it is possible in my mind that Bartlett will be a better conciliator than Taylor, which wouldn't take much (she's anything but a conciliator!)

2. I don't necessarily agree with the sentiment about the ruling class running Tulsa, but I acknowledged that many people, yourself included, believe this to be true.

3. Another issue you touched on is that Tulsa has partisan mayoral elections, and OKC doesn't. Looking at their situation, this is a terrible idea. My one and only knock on Cornett is that he pursued this approach during his initial election. Please pray God don't let this happen in OKC.

4. Regarding the suburban voters support for Tulsa, while I'm sure there are many people like yourself who do support progressive initiatives to move Tulsa forward, the overall suburban vote has been opposed to these things, such as the river improvement vote a year or so ago.

Yeah for sure, Taylor took over a ****ball and did a far better job than LaFortune, at least IMO. While I wasn't here for much of Lafortune's reign I have done a tone of reading on Tulsa and its prior mayors when we moved up here. And it will definately take some out of the box thinking.

I believe if the city would get rid of the corruption and make all contracts public on a website that would help tremendously. When for example, road contracts are inflated by 30 or 35% to line someone's pockets, people resent it, and therefore resist tax increases (as I'm sure all of us would). The fact is Tulsa is going to require a tax increase of some sort to fix its ailing infrastructure. Rooting out corruption alone will not fix the problem because the city is so far down the road of decay it will take major investment to get it back on track. A sales tax increase would be beneficial and it would require 100% openness on the entire city budget.

Tulsa has been ruled largely by an innercircle of a political class, Lafortune, Taylor and Bartlett are all a part of it in some form at some level. But then again we may simply disagree, which is fine...

The mayoral elections up here are extremely partisan and the debates in general were mediocre, there is a local radio station 1170 (conservative station in general) that has great local talk and had some superb mayoral debates with good questions asked of all three major candidates.

I wouuld support progressive tax initiatives but you're right many will not, I think this could change if Tulsa were more open and less partisan with their tax collections and projects.

Doug Loudenback
12-12-2009, 02:48 PM
I've just been browsing over at TulsaNow.org. Man, those guys over there really hate us. I didn't stir the pot, no point. Oh, well ...

OUGrad05
12-12-2009, 02:51 PM
I've just been browsing over at TulsaNow.org. Man, those guys over there really hate us. I didn't stir the pot, no point. Oh, well ...

They're not all raging morons ;)

BG918
12-12-2009, 03:36 PM
I'm from Tulsa but live in Norman, work in OKC. I still think Tulsa is the nicer place to live but love the progress OKC has made and continues to make. That being said I hope to move back to Tulsa someday but at the same time enjoy living down here.

MikeOKC
12-12-2009, 04:02 PM
MikeOKC,

I for one would love to see Tulsa realize its amazing potential, but it is squandering. There is absolutely nothing juvenile about pointing this out.



I didn't mean that pointing out particular things are juvenile. I meant the decades long battle between OKC and Tulsa --- in general! I also have been around enough in my 50 years to know that this isn't a one-way thing. I see just as much resentment toward Tulsa from OKC, it may run in cycles as to who does more finger-pointing, but it's a two-way street. I think that kind of generalizing (from both cities) is what's juvenile. The fact is that Oklahoma City and Tulsa are two great cities and, as a state, we should be proud of them both.

kevinpate
12-12-2009, 04:44 PM
They really should be cheering eachother on, unfortunately, at least up here in TTown thats not the case. There is a lot of disdain for OKC which is just silly in my opinion.

Not really a Tulsa issue. More an East of Hwy 75 issue, and to a lesser degree an E of Hwy 177 issue, though that's decidedly lighter until one crosses over Hwy 75.

In_Tulsa
12-13-2009, 03:56 PM
As much as I would like to see it change, I don't believe it will until OKC is visibly 100 percent better to even the most delusional Tulsan, and that may take another ten years. By that time, they will be very far behind and OKC will be working on MAPS 4.[/QUOTE]

HA HA HA HA HA!!!!!

Steve
12-13-2009, 04:57 PM
Groan. This thread has once again proven as effective as its predecessors in doing nothing to advance the discussion. I'm out.

Spartan
12-13-2009, 05:01 PM
I think you have to be able to appreciate the irony in how, from an OKC perspective, anything less than bowing down to the superiority of MAPS and Bricktown and all things OKC would mean Tulsans aren't "getting it." If they aren't bowing down, they just don't "get it" do they?

Of course the only thing that surprises me is that the proud people in OKC actually seem surprised that Tulsans, who also have just as much to be proud of, aren't going to just bow down and start crying about how they wish they could have a Bass Pro and a Toby Keith's Bar and Grill in their downtown..

Doug Loudenback
12-13-2009, 06:59 PM
Groan. This thread has once again proven as effective as its predecessors in doing nothing to advance the discussion. I'm out.
I seem to recall someone saying,


For the past few years it seems as if everytime I look at a story involving downtown Tulsa, the folks up there canít help taking some sort of pot shot at Oklahoma City. And yet I rarely hear Oklahoma City folks taking pot shots at Tulsa.
Who done it? Click here (http://blog.newsok.com/okccentral/2009/11/11/is-it-time-for-tulsa-to-find-a-new-city-to-pick-on/).

Steve
12-13-2009, 07:01 PM
Yeah, you got me there.... but you've got to admit I took a direction not taken before - I tried to help Tulsa find another city to obsess over. Looking back at that poll, I was disappointed those voting in Tulsa were choosing Wichita. Kansas City has so much more potential.

bluedogok
12-13-2009, 07:14 PM
They don't care about potential, they wanted someone they knew they could "beat". There is no way they could even compete with KC.

Spartan
12-13-2009, 07:30 PM
Tulsa seemingly prefers to pick fights with cities that are relatively flat and treeless. KC may be even flatter than OKC but is not treeless. So Tulsa won't ever be picking a fight with KC because it won't be able to fall back on its green, naturally beautiful landscape.

soonerguru
12-13-2009, 07:31 PM
Doug beat me to it.

Steve, are you feeling cranky tonight? I don't find this thread to be particularly contentious or off base.

Steve
12-13-2009, 08:19 PM
:053:
I might be a bit cranky. Doug already brought me down to size...

soonerguru
12-13-2009, 08:31 PM
Tulsa seemingly prefers to pick fights with cities that are relatively flat and treeless. KC may be even flatter than OKC but is not treeless. So Tulsa won't ever be picking a fight with KC because it won't be able to fall back on its green, naturally beautiful landscape.

KC is not flat. It is actually quite hilly, possibly as hilly or even more so than Tulsa.

mugofbeer
12-13-2009, 10:07 PM
OKC may be relatively flat and sometimes dusty, but Tulsa should be most concerned that they'll find themselves left squarely in our dust....

okcpulse
12-13-2009, 10:55 PM
Okay. When, honestly, when, was OKC ever "sometimes" dusty? Are we talking about the occasional thin dust from west Texas that blows through on an advancing cold front? I've seen worse in New Mexico.

Of the 27 years I spent growing up and living in central Oklahoma, exactly what dust are we talking about? Is it a figure of speech? A metaphor?

There isn't even any desert terrain to make it dusty. The local vegetation doesn't even support a dusty environment. Don't mean to be analytical, I just really think people need to kick the 'dusty' reference. It literally holds no water.

Swake2
12-13-2009, 10:56 PM
I simply do not understand the need by so many in Oklahoma City for people in Tulsa to think OKC is the most wonderful place on earth. Hereís a hint, most people live in a city because they like the place for whatever reason, and donít live in another city because their perception is that the other city is somehow a lesser location. People in Oklahoma City are going to almost always prefer Oklahoma City, and people in Tulsa will not. And you know what, thatís ok.

As for some of the statements in this thread, they are way off base. Tulsa is not exactly ďbeing left in the dustĒ, Tulsa like almost all cities in this economy is having budget issues. When the economy recovers so will tax revenues. The BOK Center is a huge hit. Tulsaís version of the Skirvin had itís grand reopening last week. We have two other hotels on the way downtown, one a new high rise hotel across the street from the BOK Center. Tulsaís newly redone and expanded convention center is due to be completed within the next month. The new baseball stadium opens in April. There are two downtown residential conversion projects under construction right now with another on the way and a new addition to the Tribune building due to start construction soon. And thatís just downtown.

. The Arkansas River is still seeing huge improvements; The Riverparks reconstruction is nearing completion. The Aquarium is expanding again, Riverspirit casino is about to start a hotel tower, Riverwalk Crossing II is nearly finished along with a residential section.

As for roads, work is starting. Tulsa is starting on construction right now on itís half billion dollar plan to rebuilt streets and the state is finally spending real money to fix the highways in the Tulsa area. In other areas Tulsa has a brand new Hard Rock casino. TPS has spend hundreds of millions of dollars to upgrade schools in the last ten years or so and itís about to float the largest school bond issue in state history. OU and OSU in Tulsa along with TU have had huge expansions.

I think this is just mostly news you miss because of badly biased and anti-Tulsa media, specifically (really only) the Oklahoman as evidenced by that idiotic blog by the fawning OKC cheerleader Lackmeyer.

That same Oklahoman has sold you a turkey of a Maps plan, the only truly worthwhile project is the transit part, thatís going to be a huge game changer. But you need to really beware that Core to Shore with the park and convention center donít suck all the momentum and business out of Bricktown by dumping millions of square feet of retail and office space on the market, a market that already is going to struggle with the addition of the Devon tower.

progressiveboy
12-13-2009, 11:04 PM
I simply do not understand the need by so many in Oklahoma City for people in Tulsa to think OKC is the most wonderful place on earth. Hereís a hint, most people live in a city because they like the place for whatever reason, and donít live in another city because their perception is that the other city is somehow a lesser location. People in Oklahoma City are going to almost always prefer Oklahoma City, and people in Tulsa will not. And you know what, thatís ok.

As for some of the statements in this thread, they are way off base. Tulsa is not exactly ďbeing left in the dustĒ, Tulsa like almost all cities in this economy is having budget issues. When the economy recovers so will tax revenues. The BOK Center is a huge hit. Tulsaís version of the Skirvin had itís grand reopening last week. We have two other hotels on the way downtown, one a new high rise hotel across the street from the BOK Center. Tulsaís newly redone and expanded convention center is due to be completed within the next month. The new baseball stadium opens in April. There are two downtown residential conversion projects under construction right now with another on the way and a new addition to the Tribune building due to start construction soon. And thatís just downtown.

. The Arkansas River is still seeing huge improvements; The Riverparks reconstruction is nearing completion. The Aquarium is expanding again, Riverspirit casino is about to start a hotel tower, Riverwalk Crossing II is nearly finished along with a residential section.

As for roads, work is starting. Tulsa is starting on construction right now on itís half billion dollar plan to rebuilt streets and the state is finally spending real money to fix the highways in the Tulsa area. In other areas Tulsa has a brand new Hard Rock casino. TPS has spend hundreds of millions of dollars to upgrade schools in the last ten years or so and itís about to float the largest school bond issue in state history. OU and OSU in Tulsa along with TU have had huge expansions.

I think this is just mostly news you miss because of badly biased and anti-Tulsa media, specifically (really only) the Oklahoman as evidenced by that idiotic blog by the fawning OKC cheerleader Lackmeyer.

That same Oklahoman has sold you a turkey of a Maps plan, the only truly worthwhile project is the transit part, thatís going to be a huge game changer. But you need to really beware that Core to Shore with the park and convention center donít suck all the momentum and business out of Bricktown by dumping millions of square feet of retail and office space on the market, a market that already is going to struggle with the addition of the Devon tower. I think "generally speaking" that folks in OKC are starting to wise up and they could really care less what Tulsa thinks of them. Tulsa is really starting to have a major inferiority complex about what others think about them. It's very child like and reeks of major insecurity on Tulsa's part. With all the changes in OKC and the passage of MAPS 3 I have hope for my former hometown and really believe it will surpass Tulsa and will most likely be "left in the dust".

Swake2
12-13-2009, 11:05 PM
I'll attempt to answer your questions while addressing soem of what soonerguru has posted...



I a not sure who you were talking to but most I know were not going to vote for Taylor again despite having voted for her initially. But really its all speculation since she chose not to run again. I am not sure she would have been re-elected.

Bartlett has basically received a city that is in disrepair and dealing with major corruption problems. However, he is part of the normal Tulsa political class so for this reason I am very skeptical of him changing much if anything. It is unfortunate the choices for mayor were so poor...but then again I could be and hope I am surprised in the long run with Bartlett's performance...

Sooner is correct if by factionalism he means major political factions (ie left and right) essentially being unwilling to work with eachother, which is what Tulsa has been dealing with for 15 years now. You have one group that wants a tax on everything and another group that will oppose any hint of any tax increase no matter how noble or justified it may be.

Actually people in the suburbs care about downtown tulsa, I do especially, since I work there, but most folks I talk to are pleased with the BOK center but very disappointed with the disjointed manner in which Tulsa has chosen to develop land within the IDL.

Sooner is exactly right about the elite class ruling tulsa and awarding major contracts to buddies/friends/family despite it costing the tax payers huge sums of money. Bartlett is part of this class and as a result viewed with skepticism (at least from me and many others I talk with).

Sooner is again right on the tax issues, but keep in mind many people are very skeptical given the corruption issues that have erupted in Tulsa over the past decade...you would be to if your money was spent/squandered/handed out in such an irresponsible manner.

I was hoping we'd have a couple of very different mayoral candidates pop up for Tulsa this time around, we did not. That means we have at least 4 more years (again I'm a bartlett skeptic, i could be proven wrong) before the city is truly moved in the right direction. I hope I am wrong as my wife and I both work in downtown Tulsa and love visiting some of the restaurants/pubs downtown. But the city has a long way to go to catchup with OKC or even make the forward progress on the scale OKC has seen the last 15 years.

Taylor's approval rating were above 60%, no one was even going to run against her.

You obviously have learned all you know of Tulsa from a particular single talk radio station. The KFAQ, Bates, Medlock club is a nutty little rightwing fringe movement, but KFAQ's rating are poor and their followers numbers aren't large.

From what I read here about Oklahoma City's talk radio, you can all imagine what it would be like to only know of Oklahoma City what is spewed on talk radio.

mugofbeer
12-13-2009, 11:05 PM
I simply do not understand the need by so many in Oklahoma City for people in Tulsa to think OKC is the most wonderful place on earth. Hereís a hint, most people live in a city because they like the place for whatever reason, and donít live in another city because their perception is that the other city is somehow a lesser location. People in Oklahoma City are going to almost always prefer Oklahoma City, and people in Tulsa will not. And you know what, thatís ok.

As for some of the statements in this thread, they are way off base. Tulsa is not exactly ďbeing left in the dustĒ, Tulsa like almost all cities in this economy is having budget issues. When the economy recovers so will tax revenues. The BOK Center is a huge hit. Tulsaís version of the Skirvin had itís grand reopening last week. We have two other hotels on the way downtown, one a new high rise hotel across the street from the BOK Center. Tulsaís newly redone and expanded convention center is due to be completed within the next month. The new baseball stadium opens in April. There are two downtown residential conversion projects under construction right now with another on the way and a new addition to the Tribune building due to start construction soon. And thatís just downtown.

. The Arkansas River is still seeing huge improvements; The Riverparks reconstruction is nearing completion. The Aquarium is expanding again, Riverspirit casino is about to start a hotel tower, Riverwalk Crossing II is nearly finished along with a residential section.

As for roads, work is starting. Tulsa is starting on construction right now on itís half billion dollar plan to rebuilt streets and the state is finally spending real money to fix the highways in the Tulsa area. In other areas Tulsa has a brand new Hard Rock casino. TPS has spend hundreds of millions of dollars to upgrade schools in the last ten years or so and itís about to float the largest school bond issue in state history. OU and OSU in Tulsa along with TU have had huge expansions.

I think this is just mostly news you miss because of badly biased and anti-Tulsa media, specifically (really only) the Oklahoman as evidenced by that idiotic blog by the fawning OKC cheerleader Lackmeyer.

That same Oklahoman has sold you a turkey of a Maps plan, the only truly worthwhile project is the transit part, thatís going to be a huge game changer. But you need to really beware that Core to Shore with the park and convention center donít suck all the momentum and business out of Bricktown by dumping millions of square feet of retail and office space on the market, a market that already is going to struggle with the addition of the Devon tower.

Its more response to some pretty tacky comments from Tulsa folks about the recent MAPS3 approval. Didn't say Tulsa was being left in our dust, saying Tulsa should be more concerned about being left in our dust. Your "Turkey" of a MAPS plan is short sigted and pretty much what was said about the original MAPS and the canals and river dams. They've become extremely successful as will the projects in MAPS3. BTW - LOVE the BOK Center. Its a great asset to Tulsa. MAPS is momentum. You have to keep the momentum going and OKC did.

Doug Loudenback
12-13-2009, 11:39 PM
* * * I think this is just mostly news you miss because of badly biased and anti-Tulsa media, specifically (really only) the Oklahoman as evidenced by that idiotic blog by the fawning OKC cheerleader Lackmeyer.

That same Oklahoman has sold you a turkey of a Maps plan, the only truly worthwhile project is the transit part, that’s going to be a huge game changer. But you need to really beware that Core to Shore with the park and convention center don’t suck all the momentum and business out of Bricktown by dumping millions of square feet of retail and office space on the market, a market that already is going to struggle with the addition of the Devon tower.
Daaam! You cannot possibly know how very much appreciated your enlightenment means to the likes of us hapless fools who go around believing everything that the Oklahoman has to say, particularly by the likes of its fawning OKC cheerleader Steve Lackmeyer and/or the Oklahoman's turkey-hawking ownership/management which has sold us the bill of goods known as Maps 3 ... or the March 4 Ford Center vote ... or Maps for Kids ... or Maps. You are so persuasive that, suddenly, we realize now how we are going to have to struggle and deal with the challenge of a lifetime as the result of the Devon Tower and the millions of square feet of retail and office space which, as you say, is going to be dumped on our downtown market.

Where were you when we needed you? Now that our eyes are opened, we are only left to wipe the drool off of our faces and look at ourselves in the mirror and see with horror the hopeless and empty eyes that are ours to behold ... now that we see that the Bricktown canal was a horrible mistake, that the Oklahoma River changes meant nothing at all, that the Bricktown Ballpark could just have well not been built when a perfectly fine old park at the fairgrounds would have done just as well, and that the same could be said for the other capital improvement projects which we as voters have been led by the nose to build over all these years since 1993. We know now, by your help (though it comes too late to save us), that we would have been ever so much better off by following your wisdom (had we known of it), and, of course, by following Tulsa's example. Little did we know.

Pray, tell more.

Doug Loudenback
12-13-2009, 11:42 PM
From what I read here about Oklahoma City's talk radio, you can all imagine what it would be like to only know of Oklahoma City what is spewed on talk radio.
Does Tulsa have radio stations?

Steve
12-14-2009, 05:17 AM
swake, clearly you're not on board with the poll results indicating you're suppposed to be trashing Wichita now, and not Oklahoma City.

kevinpate
12-14-2009, 05:36 AM
Daaam! You cannot possibly know how very much appreciated your enlightenment means to the likes of us hapless fools who go around believing everything that the Oklahoman has to say, particularly by the likes of its fawning OKC cheerleader Steve Lackmeyer and/or the Oklahoman's turkey-hawking ownership/management which has sold us the bill of goods known as Maps 3 ... or the March 4 Ford Center vote ... or Maps for Kids ... or Maps. You are so persuasive that, suddenly, we realize now how we are going to have to struggle and deal with the challenge of a lifetime as the result of the Devon Tower and the millions of square feet of retail and office space which, as you say, is going to be dumped on our downtown market.

Where were you when we needed you? Now that our eyes are opened, we are only left to wipe the drool off of our faces and look at ourselves in the mirror and see with horror the hopeless and empty eyes that are ours to behold ... now that we see that the Bricktown canal was a horrible mistake, that the Oklahoma River changes meant nothing at all, that the Bricktown Ballpark could just have well not been built when a perfectly fine old park at the fairgrounds would have done just as well, and that the same could be said for the other capital improvement projects which we as voters have been led by the nose to build over all these years since 1993. We know now, by your help (though it comes too late to save us), that we would have been ever so much better off by following your wisdom (had we known of it), and, of course, by following Tulsa's example. Little did we know.

Pray, tell more.

Anyone else just get a slight shiver down the spine and thank god da Dawg wasn't one of those campaigning on the NTM side of the Q?
:numchucks

Steve
12-14-2009, 05:40 AM
http://t1.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:T7e1z9TlEHc_6M:http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v293/mattyshake/ScreenHunter_14Jan211243.gif

warreng88
12-14-2009, 08:01 AM
From the Tulsanow.org website:

Fotd, 12/12/09, 1:24pm

"Face it, had Tim McVeigh not lit the match, downtown OKC would have never ignited to the degree it has....those first Federal funds for Murrah Memorial got the ball rolling. Now, watch how Fed funds help New Orleans retain a vibrant city core especially with all those poor people washed out of their population."

So much class over there.

proud2Bsooner
12-14-2009, 08:22 AM
MAPS1 happened prior to the bombing, and I would hardly call the additon of a memorial a large infusion. The comparison to N.O. is laughable. The Tulsa envy is real, not imagined. The belief that Tulsa thinks it is better, and always has been better, is also real.

But it doesn't matter. We have surpassed them, and will continue. MAPS3 puts them probably 20 years behind us, so we should get over their nasty little comments.