I keep wondering when we're going to get a map of a precinct breakdown of the MAPS 3 vote.. if I can find out where there's information on the vote in each precinct I'll do it myself if I have to.

I keep wondering when we're going to get a map of a precinct breakdown of the MAPS 3 vote.. if I can find out where there's information on the vote in each precinct I'll do it myself if I have to.

Election board likely has a spreadsheet they can kick out to you.
I would guesstimate that outer fringe areas of OKC - W, SW, S, SE, E, NE were the bulk of the no votes, but that's just a guess.

I visited briefly with a couple from far eastern OKC. They voted no early yesterday on their way out of town. Nada to do with fire or da policia.
They simply felt the temp tax needed to go away for another spell, if only to
prove to them it was actually a temporary tax and not a permanent tax with a shifting focus. Can understand that, but I remain glad that wasn't the prevailing sentiment.

Well I'm really just trying to figure out how ugly it was on the south side. And I'm trying to determine if it's just a socioeconomic thing, or if it's just a south v. north OKC kind of thing. I would bet it's a north v. south thing, which would be proven if the area south of I-240 and into Cleveland County is also a lot of no votes, more so than say.. areas around Deer Creek, Lake Hefner, Bethany, etc..

Channel 9 had a generalized breakdown on it during the evening news. It's kinda funny when you looked at all the red being the "no" zones yet it passed. It didn't take into account the #'s of each precinct that voted but that should be available soon at the election board.

Channel 9 had a generalized breakdown on it during the evening news. It's kinda funny when you looked at all the red being the "no" zones yet it passed. It didn't take into account the #'s of each precinct that voted but that should be available soon at the election board.

Was it just each precinct coded by the side that won that precinct?

Not a precinct breakdown, I'm waiting to see that too, but here's a channel 9 analysis based on exit polls as to what was popular, what wasn't, etc.
Video Page 2009 - News9.com - Oklahoma City, OK - News, Weather, Video and Sports | (http://www.news9.com/Global/category.asp?C=116601&clipId=4370506&autostart=true)

Yeah, we already knew that heading into the election.. surprisingly the downtown park must have grown in popularity though. The best piece of polling prior to the vote that was available to the general public was the Gazette/News 9 poll that was released probably a month ago.

An interesting read:
http://ftpcontent.worldnow.com/griffin/NEWS9/PDF/0909/MAPS3PollResults.pdf

Yeah, we already knew that heading into the election.. surprisingly the downtown park must have grown in popularity though. The best piece of polling prior to the vote that was available to the general public was the Gazette/News 9 poll that was released probably a month ago.

An interesting read:
http://ftpcontent.worldnow.com/griffin/NEWS9/PDF/0909/MAPS3PollResults.pdf

What's interesting is how prescient that initial poll was of the end result. The top two items were, even then, the trails, sidewalks and street car, with the convention center circling the drain. Little changed, except the popularity of the street car and park went up a lot.

What else is interesting is how genuinely enthusiastic OKC voters are about transit. As we all know, the initial citizen input survey indicated this support, but that was anything but scientific. If the street car is done right, the future for transit in OKC is very promising.

FWIW, I got my local polling places numbers off of the door that night. Crown Heights Baptist Church (NW 48th and Western) was:
Yes: 427
No: 197

I think the others pretty much answered your question but the number crunchers should have the final breakdown and pretty color coded charts suitable for framing in the next couple of weeks. News 9 was just the first thing I've seen in the media.

FWIW, I got my local polling places numbers off of the door that night. Crown Heights Baptist Church (NW 48th and Western) was:
Yes: 427
No: 197

That would be a typical inner north side vote I would think.

The links you guys posted, above, are all stale ... the News9/Gazette poll was done a day or two before the MAPS 3 project was announced in September and the more recent link at News9 doesn't really contain any later information, unless I missed something. If there was a News9 breakdown, I've not seen it and can't find it at their website.

I, too, am interested in seeing how the vote broke down. I've looked but couldn't find anything at the county election board or state election boards' websites. Hopefully, that data will be available tomorrow. If there is nothing in tomorrow morning's paper, I may just trot out to the county election board and pick up a printout, and then report on what it shows.

Things I'm interested in seeing/knowing:

(1) Generally, how the vote broke down, ward by ward;

(2) More particularly, how Ward 5, Brian Walters' ward, voted

The links you guys posted, above, are all stale ... the News9/Gazette poll was done a day or two before the MAPS 3 project was announced in September and the more recent link at News9 doesn't really contain any later information, unless I missed something. If there was a News9 breakdown, I've not seen it and can't find it at their website.

I, too, am interested in seeing how the vote broke down. I've looked but couldn't find anything at the county election board or state election boards' websites. Hopefully, that data will be available tomorrow. If there is nothing in tomorrow morning's paper, I may just trot out to the county election board and pick up a printout, and then report on what it shows.

Things I'm interested in seeing/knowing:

(1) Generally, how the vote broke down, ward by ward;

(2) More particularly, how Ward 5, Brian Walters' ward, votedDon't be surprised if the numbers are not pretty close out here in ward 5. I say that based solely on the results of where I vote(pct 10) S.W. 104 and Santa Fe NO (171) YES (141). That may, or may not mean a thing. Who knows.

Things I'm interested in seeing/knowing:

(1) Generally, how the vote broke down, ward by ward;

(2) More particularly, how Ward 5, Brian Walters' ward, voted

Me too. I would think that the vote in Ward 5 might be indicative of whether Mr. Walters is retained in the next election. I find myself hoping not, but it's not my ward.

andy,
I'm really interested to know how Pete White and Gary Marrs districts voted. As one of the union goons I can't wait to start the campaigning against both of them. But then again we're just all bullies. pause......then laugh.......

Well I don't think MAPS 3 is going to be a horrible political mistake for White and Marrs. In fact public opinion is probably going to start going up on MAPS 3 quite a bit. I think considering very few people realized it would have a citizen oversight committee, and that the citizen committee is the main thing you hear in the news about it now that it passed, that's going to bump it up a few percentage points as far as approval goes.

You're probably right on Marrs, but my money is on Pete White being toast. Barnold it's good to see you intend to stay around.

Funny,
I seem to remember seeing tonight where the Mayor's approval rating took a pretty big hit after all his face time on tv. I've been wrong before (once in 1976) but I don't think recent events have really favored Gary's political career and Mr. White is yesterday's bad news. I do think the citizen oversight committee is a good thing as long as it's not loaded with hand picked yes men/women of the mayor and council. After all, they only get to recommend and hold no real authority.

Keep in mind that the mayor was recently reelected by over 85% of the vote. I think he can afford his approval rating to take a hit.

And also, I hate to double post, but don't forget that we won. You all lost. And there's a lot of political bad will against you guys in the aftermath of the calculated mistake you all made in pinning all of your political hopes on defeating MAPS3.

The best thing for public safety right now is to stay quiet and talk their unions into just shutting up for a change. I think you all are done politically, for a while at least.

True, but what kind of hit can he afford to take with Aubrey and Clay? I'm personally tickled with all the promises that he publicly made during his Q & A sessions and TV commercials. If he doesn't come through he's dead meat politically, but if he can pull it off he'll look like a genius (which IMHO he's anything but). That is what they were noting about the approval numbers on channel 9 tonight was the disparity between his numbers from when was elected to post maps election.

andy,
I'm really interested to know how Pete White and Gary Marrs districts voted. As one of the union goons I can't wait to start the campaigning against both of them. But then again we're just all bullies. pause......then laugh.......I don't.

Spartan,
Not even close to done. You've just awoken a sleeping giant.

andy,
I'm really interested to know how Pete White and Gary Marrs districts voted. As one of the union goons I can't wait to start the campaigning against both of them.

Why these two in particular?

Pete White is the Gorey James of today to the fire service, he believes it's all gravy, gravy, gravy. Much of the political name calling started with him. He is one of the most uninformed on the horseshoe and generally speaks before finding out the facts. I'm pretty sure he's tired of chewing on his shoes by now, but his foot keeps coming back for a return engagement.

Gary Marrs has been a political sell out and cost the department more in personnel numbers and support than he ever contributed as the Fire Chief. When calmer heads needed to prevail between disputes between the city and fire, he fueled the fires. He knows the process of negotiations, budgeting and the inner workings of the EMSA trust better than most but has used that knowledge to position himself for political splendor rather than as a servant of the city.

But that's just my opinion.

Well I hate to disagree with my two brothers, however, I don't see Marrs or White having any trouble being re-elected if they should seek another term. I believe Cornett's decision to run again may have put a damper on one of the two's plans. Care to guess which one? Although that is purely speculation. Pete has made some pretty harsh statements as of late, but before MAPS, hence he is not all that popular with the Rank and File Firefighters.

When is Cornett up for election?

Pete White is the Gorey James of today to the fire service, he believes it's all gravy, gravy, gravy. Much of the political name calling started with him. He is one of the most uninformed on the horseshoe and generally speaks before finding out the facts. I'm pretty sure he's tired of chewing on his shoes by now, but his foot keeps coming back for a return engagement.

Gary Marrs has been a political sell out and cost the department more in personnel numbers and support than he ever contributed as the Fire Chief. When calmer heads needed to prevail between disputes between the city and fire, he fueled the fires. He knows the process of negotiations, budgeting and the inner workings of the EMSA trust better than most but has used that knowledge to position himself for political splendor rather than as a servant of the city.

But that's just my opinion.I do wish he had fought harder on our behalf regarding the OCFD taking over the transport. On a side note I wonder how many people out there know about EMSAs "situational staffing system" and how that fits into the number of ambulances on the street at the end of the reporting period? Is that still happening barnold, do you know? Once they were safe from being fined things used to get pretty slim.

When is Cornett up for election?Sorry, but I don't know that either.

Andy,
Waited almost 15 min. for an SVT tonight. Crew said they came from southside and were at level 1. Luckily we converted her and stabilized long before going to the edison medicine and she was a happy camper.

And they say that all of us union goons are led around by the bosses......silly rabbits, don't they know we're allowed to express ourselves and occasionally disagree without having a streetfight? I think they watch too much tv. I don't think that Marrs will necessarily have any opposition when he runs again, but I think he's pissed Cornett announced he's sticking around.

Remember you guys don't need to get yourselves in a bind.

true......

Andy,
Waited almost 15 min. for an SVT tonight. Crew said they came from southside and were at level 1. Luckily we converted her and stabilized long before going to the edison medicine and she was a happy camper.

And they say that all of us union goons are led around by the bosses......silly rabbits, don't they know we're allowed to express ourselves and occasionally disagree without having a streetfight? I think they watch too much tv. I don't think that Marrs will necessarily have any opposition when he runs again, but I think he's pissed Cornett announced he's sticking around.Will that get them a demerit for exceeding the 7:59 90% requirment?

Spartan,
Not even close to done. You've just awoken a sleeping giant.

yeah you spent 120k spread lies and still lost ..... you lost some credibility with voters that would normally support you .... all in all .. what a scarry giant we awoke

Andy,
Waited almost 15 min. for an SVT tonight. Crew said they came from southside and were at level 1. Luckily we converted her and stabilized long before going to the edison medicine and she was a happy camper.

So you all cannot transport medical patients? I'm sure there are politics galore, but who in city government is pro-EMSA and why, if that's an answerable question? Obviously converted SVT is not an emergency at that point in time, but again, the dichotomy of services seems ridiculous and a terrible waste of money.

Betts,
No we do not transport and only ride in when we have a critical patient. As to the EMSA issues and the operation of the trust, I'm qualified to answer many of the questions but the internal politics are closed door sessions. I would suggest that you start with councilman Marrs since he is a deciding vote of the trust. As to the SVT, not critical until pharmaceuticals and joules don't work anymore. Then I need a doc in a hurry.

Some have tha capacity to graciously accept defeat, lick thier wounds and move on to the next cause, others will never let it go and hold a grudge for ever.

The Mayor, Councilman Marrs and White will easliy win re-election, Councilman Walters will save the embarrasment and announce that he's not seeking re-election to spend time with his family. Just my opinion.

When is Cornett up for election?

From an archived Oklahoman article:


OKC Mayor Mick Cornett aims to retain office (8/27/09)

Oklahoma City Mayor Mick Cornett said Wednesday he will run for re-election next spring.

Guessing that means campaign starting in the spring with the election in the fall of 2010?

Betts,
No we do not transport and only ride in when we have a critical patient. As to the EMSA issues and the operation of the trust, I'm qualified to answer many of the questions but the internal politics are closed door sessions. I would suggest that you start with councilman Marrs since he is a deciding vote of the trust. As to the SVT, not critical until pharmaceuticals and joules don't work anymore. Then I need a doc in a hurry.

Thanks. I am going to do a little snooping on this. I don't like inefficiency, especially when I'm paying for it.

As to the SVT, as long as the patient can maintain cardiac output, SVT is not critical. And you can always try to dive them. That's a wee bit easier to do with kids, and you probably would need six firemen for that maneuver in a strong, healthy adult. :wink:

Spartan,
Not even close to done. You've just awoken a sleeping giant.

Sleeping giants don't typically get smoked by 9% points.

With respect to upcoming city elections ... I don't vote in OKC but I do watch a wee bit. No in print, but off screen where leather meets asphalt and lips meet coffee mugs, Anti-Cornett was as much the focus as Not this Maps, and well, his approval rating STILL exceeded 58% after a harsh battle.

If I was one seeking to make changes in city governance, he would not be my target. Absent videos of goats or drug acts surfacing, no offense, but the folks who want him gone simply ain't got the chops or the political ammo or enough fur to keep the giant warm on a cold winter's night, or even a cool spring one.

On your council, your biggest supporter may have his own issues. The others, even if fairly quiet in MAps3, can ride, or milk, depending on what you think of them, the MAPs happiness through at least one election cycle.

So, if you seek political prey, id the weak aminal at the horseshoe, isolate, and run at that critter til it collapses. But it would be silly to go after the strongest members of the herd.

It's one thing for the sleeping giant to awake and pounce, but miss your prey twice and the other aminals may start seriously questioning whether there's a real need for a new king of da jungle, especially when the spoils are divided up after future hunts.

May or may not help, but think of Scar in the Lion King. Don't be Scar.

I know this is off subject, but with talk of EMSA in earlier posts, I'm curious, does the firefighters have an opinion about the Fire Department assuming control of EMSA.

rc, the topic of integrating the ambulance and fire is just as hottly debated within the city services as the maps projects have been. I'm proud to say that I assisted in setting up our current ALS first reponse program and it could accomplish the transport side as well but there are many issues that surround it. I don't want to see the EMSA medics out of work but think that a more cohesive system could be put in place to reduce nuisance calls and decrease response times. There are several options available when the trust expires again. The new medical director is aware of those issues and I'm sure he thinks about it everyday.

In my opinion the public utility model that we currently utilize to provide transport service has long outlived what it was designed to accomplish; which was to save AMCARE back in their day. We have to transport our sick and injured; who should do it and how is where the battle usually begins.

Kevinpate,
Duly noted and wise advice. I was only expressing my personal opinions and feelings towards what I believe has transpired over the past several years.

In my opinion guys, Ward 5 is going to be the really interesting election campaign yet to unfold. I'm incredibly intrigued by Brian Walters. At times I think he'd rather be a city councilor in Moore, and at other times I think he thinks of himself as the GOP's gift to the world..maybe a "rising star" in the GOP (barf)? Who knows. His involvement in the last MAPS 3 campaign will make his political career very interesting.

Andy,

No it will not hurt the crew that took too long to get there. when emsa is at level 6 or below i believe (which means on 6 ambulances inthe city ready for a call) then they are not held accountable if they bite calls. same as if the call is way out east or west it doesnt count, nor if there is construction or wet roads or traffic or a red light or a train or getting behind a fire engine whom doesnt drive as fast as a 1 ton ambulance. All of those make it so their numbers dont go down. they are call (exceptions) the numbers are 8:59 for serious calls and 12:59 for non serious. EMSA also has to meet helicopters at teh baptist helipad and mercy helipad and sometimes Presby to transfer pt into the hospital and at times they have amublance running hot to meet the helicopter.

I necessary dont want the emsa people to be out of a job but like barnold says it all depends on the models. SAlt lake city for example uses southwest (like EMSA) but they staff the ambulance in the firehouse with the crews and work the same shifts so they get to know on another and work as a team. other fd have completely taken over and have bunker gear in the ambulances and when there is a fire they gret dressed and meet on scene. the down fall is that you have a LOT more units on an already crowded scene.

As for taking over i know many FF/paramedics that dont want to transport people. Not because they dont care about the citizens. it is hard to explain but some people love the transporting and others dont. i have been a transport medic for 4 years now 3 at EMSA partime now and i would rather be on the engine than be on the ambulance. I did a fair share of sitting 12 hors a day 4-5 days a week in a truck. that sucks. but i myself would rather not transport and i know lot of the ff share the same feelings. I also know many people at emsa who would like fire to take over but they dont ant to fight fire and like being on the ambulance. so I feel that the best model would take some of EMSA people and possibly depending n physical tests (for retirement and wellness) be allowed to be transferred to the fire department. kind of a lateral transfer from emsa to fd but they stay on the truck. i am also for possible giving them blue or a different color PPE like extrication gear so they would be able to climb in a car and provide tx of a pt but not allowed to go into a fire. thats my opion and i would like to get on the board that looks for the best model for the fd.

on a side note about getting to know the crews. It is hard for a relationship to come between fire and EMSA. there are so many new people at EMSA that its hard knowing how well of a paramedic they are or how much help they may need. The old EMSA before Dr goodloe took over EMSA (and SOME of the old timers) really bash on the fd paramedics and fd in general and being new lots of new people hear these things and come off with attitude of the fd being idiots and treat them like 2 year olds. now that doesnt happen alot but it happens. When i went through the emsa academy 3 years ago they also bashed fire and said to make them lift all the patients because fire has better insurance if they hurt thier backs. I heard stuff like that isnt said anymore but i got hired at the last contract deadline and everyone was running around scared.

either way its going to take some research before we find the right model that fits the size and pop of OKC.

In my opinion guys, Ward 5 is going to be the really interesting election campaign yet to unfold. I'm incredibly intrigued by Brian Walters. At times I think he'd rather be a city councilor in Moore, and at other times I think he thinks of himself as the GOP's gift to the world..maybe a "rising star" in the GOP (barf)? Who knows. His involvement in the last MAPS 3 campaign will make his political career very interesting.

I know of several that are upset w/Mr. Walters, not over his stance against MAPS, but the way he handled it from the start. When the Council voted on MAPS3, they were voting to send it to a vote by the people, they were not voting their approval of the identified projects, and most of the ones I have spoken with felt as though he was trying to deny them their right as a citizen to vote on this MAPS proposal, myself included.
I know of at least 3 very prominent citizens (one a former councilman) that are seriously considering running against Mr. Walters when he's up for re-election. In my opinion, I seriouslt doubt that he runs fro re-election, I think he knows he's a one term council memember, and I think he'll announce that he's not seeking re-election.

I personally anyones stance on Maps 3 with be political suicide. Even Fire and police. while some people may be upset with them they are still going to call when their services are needed. and once they see that the crews are going ot respond and treat them with respect then the anger will go down. I also hope that people dont see the ff asking to fill the boot as a source of income for the department. if you are considering NOT donating to fill the boot please remember that 100% of the earnings go to MDA and Jerrys kids. the FD doesnt see any other that moeny so by not donating doesnt hurt the fd, it hurst research for MD>

I personally anyones stance on Maps 3 with be political suicide.

What's that?

sorry forgot "dont think"

I know of several that are upset w/Mr. Walters, not over his stance against MAPS, but the way he handled it from the start. When the Council voted on MAPS3, they were voting to send it to a vote by the people, they were not voting their approval of the identified projects, and most of the ones I have spoken with felt as though he was trying to deny them their right as a citizen to vote on this MAPS proposal, myself included.
I know of at least 3 very prominent citizens (one a former councilman) that are seriously considering running against Mr. Walters when he's up for re-election. In my opinion, I seriouslt doubt that he runs fro re-election, I think he knows he's a one term council memember, and I think he'll announce that he's not seeking re-election.

I don't think he's going to be done with politics. He's too ambitious and too rubber-stamped Republican. It just turns out that there was no room for a rubber-stamped Republican on the Horseshoe.

On the other hand I hope Foshee comes back and retakes that ward.

you can get this info from election board. $1 per page, sometimes less if your nice.

On the other hand I hope Foshee comes back and retakes that ward.

Amen and hallelueah!

Wow, the two things I find interesting from that poll is 1) 49.2% consider themselves liberal or moderate (in Oklahoma, us moderates are considered liberal, lol) and 2) only 12.2% of that sample was below the age of 45. This is remarkable in that a)who would have thought that high of number of lib/mods in THIS AGE BRACKET? and b)it probably shows that land lines are much more rare among those below age 45. Interesting.

That was my issue with Brian Walters, not that he opposed MAPS (although I didn't agree with him) but that he voted to not let the people of OKC vote on it.

Andy,

No it will not hurt the crew that took too long to get there. when emsa is at level 6 or below i believe (which means on 6 ambulances inthe city ready for a call) then they are not held accountable if they bite calls. same as if the call is way out east or west it doesnt count, nor if there is construction or wet roads or traffic or a red light or a train or getting behind a fire engine whom doesnt drive as fast as a 1 ton ambulance. All of those make it so their numbers dont go down. they are call (exceptions) the numbers are 8:59 for serious calls and 12:59 for non serious. EMSA also has to meet helicopters at teh baptist helipad and mercy helipad and sometimes Presby to transfer pt into the hospital and at times they have amublance running hot to meet the helicopter.

I necessary dont want the emsa people to be out of a job but like barnold says it all depends on the models. SAlt lake city for example uses southwest (like EMSA) but they staff the ambulance in the firehouse with the crews and work the same shifts so they get to know on another and work as a team. other fd have completely taken over and have bunker gear in the ambulances and when there is a fire they gret dressed and meet on scene. the down fall is that you have a LOT more units on an already crowded scene.

As for taking over i know many FF/paramedics that dont want to transport people. Not because they dont care about the citizens. it is hard to explain but some people love the transporting and others dont. i have been a transport medic for 4 years now 3 at EMSA partime now and i would rather be on the engine than be on the ambulance. I did a fair share of sitting 12 hors a day 4-5 days a week in a truck. that sucks. but i myself would rather not transport and i know lot of the ff share the same feelings. I also know many people at emsa who would like fire to take over but they dont ant to fight fire and like being on the ambulance. so I feel that the best model would take some of EMSA people and possibly depending n physical tests (for retirement and wellness) be allowed to be transferred to the fire department. kind of a lateral transfer from emsa to fd but they stay on the truck. i am also for possible giving them blue or a different color PPE like extrication gear so they would be able to climb in a car and provide tx of a pt but not allowed to go into a fire. thats my opion and i would like to get on the board that looks for the best model for the fd.

on a side note about getting to know the crews. It is hard for a relationship to come between fire and EMSA. there are so many new people at EMSA that its hard knowing how well of a paramedic they are or how much help they may need. The old EMSA before Dr goodloe took over EMSA (and SOME of the old timers) really bash on the fd paramedics and fd in general and being new lots of new people hear these things and come off with attitude of the fd being idiots and treat them like 2 year olds. now that doesnt happen alot but it happens. When i went through the emsa academy 3 years ago they also bashed fire and said to make them lift all the patients because fire has better insurance if they hurt thier backs. I heard stuff like that isnt said anymore but i got hired at the last contract deadline and everyone was running around scared.

either way its going to take some research before we find the right model that fits the size and pop of OKC.Thanks for your thoughts. It has been awhile since I have dealt with those issues. As it pertains to the EMSA street paramedics, I respect the work they do, and have no problem with them whatsoever, they do a wonderful job. I'm not a fan of the way EMSA is set-up. In my opinion there is a huge amount of money needlessly spent on administrative overhead and profits going to ParamedicsPlus. (NOTE: Before someone jumps on me claiming that I'm pissed off because they gave $5,000. to MAPS. Save it. That was and has been my position long before MAPS.)

Thanks for clearing up the 8:59 v. 7:59 issue. Was I wrong, or has it been changed? My point was/is they used to take ambulances off the street to boost profit margines and increase their bottom line. The flip side to that is, if they where in danger of getting slapped with a fine due to slow response times they would flood the street with ambulances.

IMHO that was wrong, if it still happens IMHO it still is. The morol to the story. If you were sick or injured, and in need of an ambulance, hope to GOD it happened when they were flooding the streets to avoid a fine. Because if it were to happen during their profit taking period you may have been SOL. P.S... So as not to hijack, this topic should be discussed in it's own thread. Sorry.

That was my issue with Brian Walters, not that he opposed MAPS (although I didn't agree with him) but that he voted to not let the people of OKC vote on it.I spoke to him. He asked me if I actually understood the question. I found him unconsciously patronizing.

I spoke to him. He asked me if I actually understood the question. I found him unconsciously patronizing.Can't blame you for that. He is my Councilman also and I agree, he should have stated his opposition and his reasons why and then voted to send it to a vote. Much in the same manor as Skip Kelly did difference being that he was supportive of MAPS. Councilman Kelly's point that the people should be allowed to decide the issue at the ballot box was absolutly right, I just wish it hadn't taken 20 minutes of rambling to make it.

Kelly is pretty good. He knows he represents another very anti-MAPS part of the city, but without stalling the passage of MAPS or trying to kill it outright like Walters, he just lets the people decide it.

I don't see Kelly's section as anti-Maps.