I think that it is now time to retire the thread "Mass Transit Announcement" and start a thread on the progress of the newly approved transit initiative.

As you can imagine, there will be a great deal of public dialogue and input solicited.

Streetcar projects eligible for new USDOT grants

Yesterday, the U.S. Department of Transportation (USDOT) announced $280 million is available in federal grants for urban circulator projects, such as streetcar and bus systems.

The money represents the first batch of funding provided by the Obama Administration through the Livability Initiative, a joint venture comprising USDOT, the U.S. Department of Housing and Urban Development, and U.S. Environmental Protection Agency.

The Federal Transit Administration (FTA) will provide a maximum of $25 million per streetcar or other urban circulator project using discretionary funds from the New Starts/Small Starts program. The administration will place priority on projects that “connect destinations and foster the redevelopment of communities into walkable, mixed-use, high-density environments,” according to a prepared statement.

The FTA expects to announce grant recipients in early 2010.

Since MAPS 3 includes 5 to 6 miles of streetcar.

What is everyones opinion to the ideal route for these 5 to 6 miles?

Streetcar projects eligible for new USDOT grants

Yesterday, the U.S. Department of Transportation (USDOT) announced $280 million is available in federal grants for urban circulator projects, such as streetcar and bus systems.

The money represents the first batch of funding provided by the Obama Administration through the Livability Initiative, a joint venture comprising USDOT, the U.S. Department of Housing and Urban Development, and U.S. Environmental Protection Agency.

The Federal Transit Administration (FTA) will provide a maximum of $25 million per streetcar or other urban circulator project using discretionary funds from the New Starts/Small Starts program. The administration will place priority on projects that “connect destinations and foster the redevelopment of communities into walkable, mixed-use, high-density environments,” according to a prepared statement.

The FTA expects to announce grant recipients in early 2010.

Isn't that press release a week or two old?

Tentatively, the goal is to connect major neighborhoods, districts, and employment centers in the central city area together. Also, to design the system to be easily expanded into other areas.

Isn't that press release a week or two old?

It is. But it is particularly relevant now as we will have the matching funds to begin to pursue additional federal funds to build an even bigger system and reach further areas. It is the first wave of funding announced specifically including streetcars in any recent history.

This route is right at 6 miles, follows very closely to the Fixed Guideway Study, but includes Broadway and less 'jogs'. I think it would be a very easy to learn system.
http://i284.photobucket.com/albums/ll14/Platemaker_photos/okc.jpg
Downtown... you'd be within 1.5 blocks of the streetcar no matter where you were.

Is it proposed to be a street car (a la the vintage system on McKinney Ave in Dallas) or a street level light rail system?

That's a solid proposal, Platemaker.

I know we only will have so much money but it sure would be nice to extend it north from Saint Anthony's to 23rd or even 36th, as it would greatly help 23rd Street, The Paseo and all those great historical neighborhoods.

I could see a loop added on in the vein, then circling back towards the Capitol.

Is it proposed to be a street car (a la the vintage system on McKinney Ave in Dallas) or a street level light rail system?

a MODERN streetcar

Is it proposed to be a street car (a la the vintage system on McKinney Ave in Dallas) or a street level light rail system?

It is the modern more European system currently only employed in Tacoma, Seattle, and Portland.

Watch the video on the left of the page at-

Welcome | Modern Transit Project in Oklahoma City (http://www.mtpokc.com)

about the Seattle Streetcar System. It gives a quick and excellent explanation about the type of system that is proposed.

OK, its like a single car light rail in Denver, SLC or Dallas.

Not exactly... I'm suprised you haven't visited... Welcome | Modern Transit Project in Oklahoma City (http://www.mtpokc.com)

Urban Pioneer, what is your opinion for the 5 to 6 mile route?

Not exactly... I'm suprised you haven't visited... Welcome | Modern Transit Project in Oklahoma City (http://www.mtpokc.com)

Just saw the video. There are portions of each of the systems I listed in the respective Downtown areas that are at street level and operate the way the video portrays. Those systems all have 2-3 cars. These just look like one-car versions of the same thing.

OK, its like a single car light rail in Denver, SLC or Dallas.

Yes, single vehicle, but with low-level boarding and articulation capabilities. Operates at-grade for nearly all of its line.

Just saw the video. There are portions of each of the systems I listed in the respective Downtown areas that are at street level and operate the way the video portrays. Those systems all have 2-3 cars. These just look like one-car versions of the same thing.

Right, but Modern Streetcars are utilized in very urban, at-grade environments. LRT can do both, however, the more vehicles you have, length and turn ability becomes a problem. If a train is 4 cars long, it just doesn't work as well in short block scenarios. Hence, Modern Streetcar, 1 car, articulated, level boarding, and runs at slower speeds.

Right, I know ours would only be a single car system running at-grade. Thats what I have been saying.

This route is right at 6 miles, follows very closely to the Fixed Guideway Study, but includes Broadway and less 'jogs'. I think it would be a very easy to learn system.
http://i284.photobucket.com/albums/ll14/Platemaker_photos/okc.jpg
Downtown... you'd be within 1.5 blocks of the streetcar no matter where you were.

You can't cross the BNSF at 13th. You'd have to build an overpass, which would blow the budget. 4th, 5th, or 23rd are your best bets.

Right, I know ours would only be a single car system running at-grade. Thats what I have been saying.

But we've been saying that Modern Streetcar =/= LRT. They overlap in functionality in many areas, but they are not the same.

Plansit,

Why do you feel it is necessary to run the transit to the state capitol?

Urban Pioneer, what is your opinion for the 5 to 6 mile route?

Well, to be honest, I would like to keep my opinion to myself and allow public dialogue and engineering analysis to determine the route.

I will say that I advocate for the best use of the money that is before us. What may look like a great route/street to traverse down may be quite expensive because of underground utility relocation needs and such. That is why the engineering analysis will be so important.

I do advocate for linear lines as they are more easily expandable versus loops and the mayor supports that concept.

Project 180 may offer some great opportunities for "shared" costs or at least reasonable preparations for streetcar lines.

Example: Design light poles and electrical services in 180 so that they can easily accommodate power infrastructure.

Urban,

To me you are part of the public dialogue, but I can respect you witholding your opinion.

Now for the "linear lines", can you please explain in more detail this concept?

Urban,

Now for the "linear lines", can you please explain in more detail this concept?

A closed loop is harder to expand. If you want to expand it, you end up with a circle with "spokes" off of it. Also, a loop tends to become a "ride".

I am not saying that a "hub and spoke" system is the best, but it does make sense for us to consider developing a rail transit hub were there is one centralized place that all routes efficiently merge.

Also, that doesn't mean that streetcar lines can't cross one another further out in the city thus creating "transfer points", but in the initial system, much of the streetcar will be "downtown centric".

Plansit,

Why do you feel it is necessary to run the transit to the state capitol?

That's not my map, it's Platemaker's. I personally wouldn't run it to the Capitol, just to OUHSC/OU Med, Midtown, DT, and Bricktown for now.

So my next question would be,

Where would the best location in downtown Okc be to develop the rail trasit hub?

Also, is the rail transit hub part of the MAPS 3 budget along with 5 to 6 miles of streetcare?

You can't cross the BNSF at 13th. You'd have to build an overpass, which would blow the budget. 4th, 5th, or 23rd are your best bets.

That's 10th street.

There is $10 million in MAPS 3 for commuter transit infrastructure. Such monies could be applied to a hub.

OKC is in the process of asking ACOG to conduct a hub study through an independent engineering firm.

That's not my map, it's Platemaker's. I personally wouldn't run it to the Capitol, just to OUHSC/OU Med, Midtown, DT, and Bricktown for now.


I'm sorry, you are right, not your map.

I wouldn't run it to the state capitol either, that would be a waste, unless platemaker is a politician.

Having heard the mayor say he prefers a spoke and hub type system and that we have enough money for 5-6 miles, Ill offer my opinion based on that.

Im not really sure what would be the best spot for the hub, somewhere around the myriad gardens I would think would be ideal. As far as the spokes go, one would need to go west to tie in Film Exchange/new OCU law school/Civic Center/OKCMOA. Going East: Probably down Main St to tie in all of Bricktown and extend it for access to boathouse row. To the South: the new Park and convention center if thats where its located. To the North: this might be a little tricky. You want to go up broadway to tie in to existing housing and businesses along there but it also needs to makes its way to the Plaza Court and St Andrews area. Getting lines to the heart of Midtown is critical in my mind because it has the best potential to create new private investment.

If we indeed do build a main hub, this location is very critical for the future of Okc transit.

What are some ideas on the location of a main hub?

That's 10th street.

Same thing applies.

This map seems to be fairly correlative to Platemaker's but it looks like it goes further south to the southern tip of the park.

http://www.mtpokc.com/img/about/connections.jpg

Same thing applies.

The map was just for fun... 10th street is the alignment proposed in the Fixed Guideway Study.

The map was just for fun... 10th street is the alignment proposed in the Fixed Guideway Study.

Oh, I know. I was just pointing out that although it would be nice, it just isn't practical right now. Keep the maps coming. They provide food for thought.

^^ Exactly, great job with any and all streetcar map possibilities.

^^ Exactly, great job with any and all streetcar map possibilities.

Uh oh!!! I'm a Google My Maps junkie!!! You're all gonna be sick of me!

How about one way figure eight style lines a la Portland. Maximum streetcar frontage... this would serve current hotels very well... access to multiple lines. Of course this is more than 6 miles worth... but whatever.

http://i284.photobucket.com/albums/ll14/Platemaker_photos/onewaylines.jpg

If we build a new central hub, one would think it needs to be near the downtown bus trasit hub.

Possibly... but we could be like Boston and have a "North Station" = current bus transfer station... and a "South Station" = Santa Fe or Union.

This map seems to be fairly correlative to Platemaker's but it looks like it goes further south to the southern tip of the park.

http://www.mtpokc.com/img/about/connections.jpg

Platemaker,

Can you overlay this map onto one of your google maps?

If we build a new central hub, one would think it needs to be near the downtown bus trasit hub.

But you don't want those people on the streetcars

Platemaker,

Can you overlay this map onto one of your google maps?

Here ya go... I made a point to include all points listed on the map... it's 6.42 miles.

http://i284.photobucket.com/albums/ll14/Platemaker_photos/overlay.jpg

Great job Platemaker.

6.42, that is what I was curious about.

We have 5 to 6 miles to work with.

How many streetcars are a part of this system?

Especially if we are considering a spoke system which would require a streetcar to travel the length of one spoke, then return to the hub before traveling the line of another spoke.

But maybe I'm envisioning this all wrong. But regardless, it still helps to realize how many actual vehicles would be a part of this system.

Great job Platemaker.

6.42, that is what I was curious about.

We have 5 to 6 miles to work with.

Well that jog up Shartel and 18th is what I'm considering 'Historic Neighborhoods" fromt the MTPOKC graphic. It would be right at 6 miles if it ended at 13th.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

"How many streetcars are a part of this system?"


^^ Urban Pioneer may know the answer to this question.

How many streetcars are a part of this system?


Well Portland's is 4 miles and they usually run 7 streetcars at a time about 1/2 a mile apart at 6-12 minute intervals.

So if we ran a similar schedule at 6 miles it would be about 12 streetcars.

Then no worries on my part. Less than that would be fantastic for me.

A couple of things to consider:

1) Part of the street car route will probably be contingent on where the convention center goes. It only makes sense for the convention center to have a stop and I am not sure that location is selected yet. Of course, if it's next to the park, they can share a stop.

2) Getting into the Historic Districts may be tricky. I can see some resistance from residents to any lines running through the neighborhoods like on Walker or Shartel. Broadway and Classen probably make the easiest routes north and south out of the triangle and out of MidTown simply because of the room those streets afford. Granted they may not offer the most scenic routes, once you get above 13th, though. It may not matter in this first step, but I think the most likely way to get it to 23rd will be around the HP neighborhoods and not through them.

BDP - I fear your second point is valid. If they looked at it like the St. Charles line in New Orleans lined by mansions maybe they'd find it charming. Classen and Broadway would definitely work... and maybe Robinson between 13th and 23rd. Also... there doesn't really need to be 'stations' in the HP neighborhoods... one at 13th and no others until 20th.
Walker would be a great option for future extensions to the Paseo.

It needs to go to the state capitol because it is a major employment center. OKC has 4 primary areas at its center - downtown, Bricktown, OU Medical, State Capitol. All four need to be connected.

Agreed... plus the more neighborhoods the streetcar passes would naturally encourage more ridership... right??? Right??

Regarding the "hub", keep in mind that we want the streetcar to be the nexus for the future Regional Transit System- commuter rail. So, more than likely that might be somewhere between the new boulevard/convention center and the Bricktown/SanteFe Station.

It might very well be that SanteFe is a incredible asset that could be reconstituted if the Brewers didn't own it. The hub study will re-evaluate that facility.

It would not be that difficult to justify direct linkage to the existing bus station on one of the lines.

BDP - I fear your second point is valid. If they looked at it like the St. Charles line in New Orleans lined by mansions maybe they'd find it charming. Classen and Broadway would definitely work... and maybe Robinson between 13th and 23rd. Also... there doesn't really need to be 'stations' in the HP neighborhoods... one at 13th and no others until 20th.
Walker would be a great option for future extensions to the Paseo.

I would love walker to have a street car. It would have so many great things on it, but, yeah, given the construction/noise factor, I think you're going to get some resistance in HH and Mesta. And HH and Mesta are very proud of their landscape and median work on Shartel, rightfully so. The biggest loss would be to lose a Paseo stop, but, with better sidewalks, maybe a Classen or Western stop on 30th could serve it?? Don't know. One on Western would probably be better received than on Walker and that's not too far from the Paseo and it has a lot of commerce on it as well. But, i guess we'll cross those tracks when we get to it.

(btw, how cool is it that we can have this discussion within the context of something that is actually going to happen)

It needs to go to the state capitol because it is a major employment center. OKC has 4 primary areas at its center - downtown, Bricktown, OU Medical, State Capitol. All four need to be connected.

This is a great point. I think we may scratch our noggins a bit if we make it all the way to 13th and Lincoln and stop short of the Capitol complex and state office buildings.

Of course, this is only phase one, and if we look at it that way, we can always build it out over time.

(btw, how cool is it that we can have this discussion within the context of something that is actually going to happen)

It is actually somewhat surreal. I've dreamed for more than a decade that OKC would someday even consider things like this. The fact that we've moved from consideration to action, really in just a few short years, is stunning.

Let no one say we aren't ambitious. It's really quite amazing the confluence of progressive change, vision, and leadership in OKC. It's a different place than it was a decade ago.

I havent looked at a map and scaled anything but going up Classen or Western to 23rd st seems it would be too far, for now. Im not sure even getting to the capitol would be feasible when we only have 6 miles to work with and it being a spoke and hub system.

Why doesn't the city try to get the state to extend the streetcar up to the Capitol? Just tell them the city can't afford to go that far, and if they want it, to chip in $15-20 million for a mile from OUHSC to the Capitol.

Brianinok - it would be nice if the state kicked in some money to ensure the tracks made it all the way to the capitol. Good idea. It would be a good idea for the capitol complex to be linked to the states only rail transit system. Does anyone kow if there are any state capitol complexes that have a direct rail transit stop?

Why doesn't the city try to get the state to extend the streetcar up to the Capitol? Just tell them the city can't afford to go that far, and if they want it, to chip in $15-20 million for a mile from OUHSC to the Capitol.

Not likely to happen. From a state perspective, it makes no greater sense to have the state pay for an in city line to the capitol than it would for the state to cover the cost to incorporate the line to OU Health Sciences Complex.

Would it be a good idea to reach to the capitol complex? Sure. You have a large potential ridership that could hop the line, enjoy lunch at BT or the new park, or skip the food and maybe get a whitewater run in. The number of white socks and cross trainers plopped on beneath work clothes there would surprise many, and lots of those folks would love to have somewhere to power walk other than the existing tunnels and parking lots.