Let's not let OKC be the test bed. If it works cool. If it doesn't we just bought a system that doesn't work with the only rail transit money we have.

If your thought process worked like mine, you'd see a direct correlation. I am not trying to insult you. My brain does work differently than most people's. I remeber one of my employees told me: "you think differently than anyone I've ever met" (I owned a computer business for 13 years). I realize my opinions can easily get irritating - my family disagrees with many of my ideas and my sister has asked me not to discuss politics around her family.

But I am just trying to expand everyone's knowledge about the potential and inherent value of adding inductive charging capabilities to our streetcars in the best way that I can.

I do think you have good intentions but sometimes that isn't enough. :)

So let me ask you something, how do things get tested on large scales then? Everything has to start somewhere.

Yes, and it has to start somewhere that they have enough money to experiment. OKC doesn't.

Next week, I'll try contacting both Republican and Democrat House & Senate leaders as well as my own Senator & House Representative to see what they think. Remember, we citizens have already passed MAPS 3 & the intent of our tax on ourselves was to complete all the MAPS 3 projects that were proposed. I doubt any Republican or Democrat would want to anger the citizenry of Oklahoma City. I think everyone in the state is proud of OKC & what a shining example we are setting for the rest of the nation. -- John

Please don't. Not if you want a streetcar. The morons in Tennessee's legislature decided to kill Nashville's transit system. You are meddling unnecessarily. Please trust the people who have navigated political waters no one else has in the history of OKC. This is a sensitive issue and this is the kind of dumb move that could really screw things up.

Some Legislators don't think; they react...


http://www.thunderfans.com/vforum/images/smilies/okc.gif "Oklahoma City looks oh-so pretty... ...as I get my kicks on Route 66." --Nat King Cole.http://www.thunderfans.com/vforum/images/smilies/okc.gif

Please don't. Not if you want a streetcar. The morons in Tennessee's legislature decided to kill Nashville's transit system. You are meddling unnecessarily. Please trust the people who have navigated political waters no one else has in the history of OKC. This is a sensitive issue and this is the kind of dumb move that could really screw things up.

This, oh so this. Please, please, please leave them out of it.

"Next week, I'll try contacting both Republican and Democrat House & Senate leaders as well as my own Senator & House Representative to see what they think. Remember, we citizens have already passed MAPS 3 & the intent of our tax on ourselves was to complete all the MAPS 3 projects that were proposed. I doubt any Republican or Democrat would want to anger the citizenry of Oklahoma City. I think everyone in the state is proud of OKC & what a shining example we are setting for the rest of the nation. -- John"

Please don't. Not if you want a streetcar. The morons in Tennessee's legislature decided to kill Nashville's transit system. You are meddling unnecessarily. Please trust the people who have navigated political waters no one else has in the history of OKC. This is a sensitive issue and this is the kind of dumb move that could really screw things up.

Translation: "I'm not getting what I want so I'm gonna go screw things up for everyone."

Next week, I'll try contacting both Republican and Democrat House & Senate leaders as well as my own Senator & House Representative to see what they think. Remember, we citizens have already passed MAPS 3 & the intent of our tax on ourselves was to complete all the MAPS 3 projects that were proposed. I doubt any Republican or Democrat would want to anger the citizenry of Oklahoma City. I think everyone in the state is proud of OKC & what a shining example we are setting for the rest of the nation. -- John

You forget how the legislature completely and without a moment's hesitations gave OKC the middle finger about the abandoned buildings ordinance.

Please don't. Not if you want a streetcar. The morons in Tennessee's legislature decided to kill Nashville's transit system. You are meddling unnecessarily. Please trust the people who have navigated political waters no one else has in the history of OKC. This is a sensitive issue and this is the kind of dumb move that could really screw things up.

Seriously John H, please leave the legislature out of the streetcar. They WILL find a way to kill it/impede it/etc. The only reason it has avoided this fate is because they aren't paying attention. One thing they could realistically do whihc would really fowl things up is forbid us from getting any Federal $$ for the project. Don't think they wouldn't do it. The state GOP turns down Fed money all the time (Medicaid expansion, Common Core repeal, etc.).

On the notion that members of the Legislature would not want to anger folks in okc who have been making real progress in the way they want to do things

You may be forgetting things like two recent examples:

Shutting down being able to even consider establishing a different minimum wage in the largest city in the largest metro area because other cities in this metro area and other metro areas and rural areas in essence said oh, that's different and therefore, that's bad.

Telling OKC, more than once, we don't care if we started a state project in your backyard on land you donated to the cause, we'd rather spend near on a million to let it semi-rot than be stand up people. This, even when it was clear a majority of the state's elected reps and senators and the governor said they would stand behind the newest funding mechanism to move American Indian Cultural Center and Museum forward. A majority of the state's elected representatives were thwarted by a speaker and house leadership team who insisted you cant have a real majority of votes unless it includes the majority vote would also include a majority of their party in the house.

The folks who occupy the 4th and 5th floor at the capitol are not always keen of doing what is good for the majority of the state, let alone what is good for the majority of OKC. To think otherwise is a touch of folly. As for courting federal dollars, we've never had a Legislature until recent years that seems to view federal dollars as all being coated with a virus and thus should be stopped at the border whenever possible.

The state legislature is made up of a bunch of people from relatively small communities. They don't give one rat's ass about pissing off people in OKC. If you think otherwise, you are wrong. Most of them are from small rural communities and have poor voter turnout. They get support because they're ol' Joe Morton's son, and he used to run the tire factory by the old fire station, and his grandpa helped start up the church on the old country road. By the barn. And the guy comes back from the capitol and says "I told those tax and spend liberals where to stick it. They wanted to spend your tax dollars on a museum, another museum, they already got several, and on a streetcar. What's wrong with takin' a regular car?" And he smiles and he goes to the American Legion meetings and he shakes the hands of voters in their 70s who have never heard of MAPS 3 but are still gonna vote for him because they knew his grandpa, and he went to college, and they figure he knows what he's doing.

That is who is running our state.

On the notion that members of the Legislature would not want to anger folks in okc who have been making real progress in the way they want to do things

You may be forgetting things like two recent examples:

Shutting down being able to even consider establishing a different minimum wage in the largest city in the largest metro area because other cities in this metro area and other metro areas and rural areas in essence said oh, that's different and therefore, that's bad.

Telling OKC, more than once, we don't care if we started a state project in your backyard on land you donated to the cause, we'd rather spend near on a million to let it semi-rot than be stand up people. This, even when it was clear a majority of the state's elected reps and senators and the governor said they would stand behind the newest funding mechanism to move American Indian Cultural Center and Museum forward. A majority of the state's elected representatives were thwarted by a speaker and house leadership team who insisted you cant have a real majority of votes unless it includes the majority vote would also include a majority of their party in the house.

The folks who occupy the 4th and 5th floor at the capitol are not always keen of doing what is good for the majority of the state, let alone what is good for the majority of OKC. To think otherwise is a touch of folly. As for courting federal dollars, we've never had a Legislature until recent years that seems to view federal dollars as all being coated with a virus and thus should be stopped at the border whenever possible.

And you're forgetting another big one: the leg and Governor Failin don't want OKC to be able to decide what to do with abandoned properties. Cuz, you know, "local control" is conservative tenet they admire so much.

Well this sucks John... I was trying to tell you that I was genuinely excited about induction technology and that we thoroughly considered it. Considering induction (and wireless in general) actually delayed MAPS 3 streetcar by 6 months or more. Now your wanting to contact the state legislature!? Don't you think that if it were at all possible to achieve this the people on this committee would be making it happen? I don't understand your logic at all.

Leave the State Legislature and the Federal Government out of our locally paid for project. Lets build what we promised the citizens of this city we would... a modern streetcar system, with wires.

Making headway: OKC Council starts bidding process for downtown streetcar | The Journal Record (http://journalrecord.com/2014/08/28/paying-the-fare-city-council-starts-bidding-process-for-downtown-streetcar-general-news/)

Here is the full article:

Making headway: OKC Council starts bidding process for downtown streetcar

By: Brian Brus
The Journal Record
August 28, 20140

OKLAHOMA CITY – The City Council agreed this week to begin the bidding process to build a downtown streetcar route.

Officials are seeking five dual-powered cars to reduce overhead electrical lines crisscrossing downtown. They would run on supplied electrical power, as well as batteries. Such systems are gaining popularity in cities across the country, said Doug Bowen, managing editor of the industry magazine Railway Age.

Only seven companies are likely to submit bids, Bowen said. Given city leaders’ expectations, he said, that list shrinks to just a few.

“I’m impressed and surprised and happy for Oklahoma City,” said Bowen, who described himself as a snotty Northeasterner. “It’s refreshing that America’s heartland is taking its cities seriously and, as an extension of that, taking streetcars seriously.

“Until very recently, most of the modern streetcars in America have been in the Pacific Northwest, such as Portland and Seattle,” he said. “Now they’re all over the place.”

Oklahoma City’s streetcar plan is part of the $777 million MAPS 3 package of public attractions and infrastructure projects approved by voters in 2011. Other projects include Oklahoma River activities, senior wellness centers and sidewalks throughout the city.

About a year ago, an oversight committee with public feedback set the route for the $128.8 million system, which will run in a loop bounded by NW 11th Street, N. Broadway Avenue, Sheridan Avenue to Joe Carter Drive, Reno Avenue and N. Hudson Avenue. The design allows for several expansion options and is expected to serve as a transition between corridors stretching across the metro area.

One of the major concerns in choosing a design has been how to work around intrusive electrical lines. Bowen said dual-power systems are popular, but have limited utility because streetcars can’t run far on their own batteries. A dual-power streetcar would be appropriate to protect a historic bridge, for example, as the cars leave the electrical grid just long enough to cross.

Alternately, some streetcar manufacturers have been able to install electrical lines at street surface, he said.

Bowen said the most likely contender to bid on the Oklahoma City project is Siemens, followed by Brookville Equipment Co. Other potential bidders include Alstom, Bombardier, CAF USA, Kinkisharyo International and United Streetcar LLC.

“The market is getting crowded now because it’s proven to be profitable,” he said.

The contract will be awarded in February and the project will begin operations at the end of 2017, MAPS project director David Todd said.

Two of the closest communities to develop streetcar systems recently are Kansas City, Missouri, and the Oak Cliff neighborhood in Dallas. Salt Lake City opened a line last year, he said, and Washington, D.C., plans to run a new line late this year, as is Atlanta.

“So the good news is that Oklahoma City is not alone in this endeavor,” Bowen said. “It’s exciting. It’s one thing when Portland, Oregon, does something like this because it’s like, ‘Yeah, big yawn, those liberal, left-leaning, tree-hugging, blah blah blah.’ But even in the deeply red states now you’re seeing streetcars transcend the national political divide.”

OK. Guys you've outvoted me. Actually I figured at least SOME of you would support my actions since we are going alone on our streetcar project without ANY money from the feds (that I know about). This was just my effort to solve a lot of nascent issues:

1. Getting the DOT to give us a lot of money so we could not only build our system, but expand it without having to be burdened with 100% of the costs,
2. Stopping more unnecessary & unsightly overhead wires in our downtown where much of our electrical, phone, cable and fiber optic wires are already buried.
3. Getting OKC and the US into using induction power which I think will be dominant within 50-100 years, perhaps sooner.
4. Putting OKC on the map as the innovator we SHOULD be, not as a follower.

I think our chances were fair to very good to add induction power to our streetcars, if we strongly pursued that course. But you guys may be more realistic than I am. I know the legislature has thrown away millions of federal money from health care and education. I just had hopes that we could try to persuade them to reverse their hurtful (to the poor & middle class) tactics to trash every initiative that is made by the Obama administration, even if it is detrimental to our state citizens.

I won't be writing any emails, letters, or making any contact with my legislators or the legislative leaders next week. Only extraordinary circumstances would change my mind. Besides, I would need your help on any project of this sort, and I have not been persuasive to almost anyone. ---

At least I made you think. -- John

John, actually you scared us a little bit. Our system will be great, as was said, I agree that you hardly notice the overhead wires for the Seattle SLUT or the newly constructed First Hill lines. I think some may be confusing streetcar power with light rail power lines, which tend to be larger/bigger and much more obtrusive. Streetcar lines are similar to the cable TV or even telephone lines, low and thin. :..

John, actually you scared us a little bit. Our system will be great, as was said, I agree that you hardly notice the overhead wires for the Seattle SLUT or the newly constructed First Hill lines. I think some may be confusing streetcar power with light rail power lines, which tend to be larger/bigger and much more obtrusive. Streetcar lines are similar to the cable TV or even telephone lines, low and thin. :..

The cable TV and telephone lines in my neighborhood and the lines paralleling our new boulevard downtown in the area where Fred Jones Ford used to be are UGLY! They're a blight on my neighborhood (probably for the next 50+ years) and they'll be a blight on our new boulevard and our new convention center if the utility lines are not buried.

The cable TV and telephone lines in my neighborhood and the lines paralleling our new boulevard downtown in the area where Fred Jones Ford used to be are UGLY! They're a blight on my neighborhood (probably for the next 50+ years) and they'll be a blight on our new boulevard and our new convention center if the utility lines are not buried.Now I will go to back with you all the way on city utility lines. Every one of them needs to be buried. It is mind blowing to me why they widen or reconstruct roads and don't bury them.

Now I will go to back with you all the way on city utility lines. Every one of them needs to be buried. It is mind blowing to me why they widen or reconstruct roads and don't bury them.

Because the City would have to pay that extra cost; or the ratepayers if we wanted that included in our rates... It's not some magical, inexpensive thing to do.

it's just one wire, very thin, on an overhead catenary. Not very noticeable here in Seattle, AND we have that for our streetcar AND a separate (with two wires) for trolley busses. Again, not very noticeable unless you really look hard enough.

OKC sure could redo their poles and lines, but if done right (which all modern systems now-days are) streetcar power lines are hardly noticeable (particularly compared to Light Rail and HSR).

I think the streetcar wire is sexy and elegant, IMHO.

Because the City would have to pay that extra cost; or the ratepayers if we wanted that included in our rates... It's not some magical, inexpensive thing to do.were did I say it would be inexpensive? I have been seeing a bunch of major cities do this, if OKC wants to lag behind, that is their problem I guess.

I guess this just further proves people here really don't care about beautification.

I don't think it proves anything about how we feel about beautification.
it proves its expensive and not a current priority. Cost vs benefit type of scenario.
I think everyone would LOVE to see it done. its just not in the budget at the moment.

I don't think it proves anything about how we feel about beautification.
it proves its expensive and not a current priority. Cost vs benefit type of scenario.
I think everyone would LOVE to see it done. its just not in the budget at the moment.fair enough.

My main beef is though when we completely reconstruct roads. Take Edmond's Covell reconstruction for example, they completely rebuilt the road. Widened it, reconstructed in cement, new median added, large sidewalks on both sides..... and they built new utility poles above ground.

Now of how much they spent to widen it, how much more could the lines possibly be to put underground? After they are underground, no more worries about windstorms, ice storms, cutting trees, people running into them etc.. That part right there is what is mind blowing to me.

So whenever we widen or reconstruct roads, why not bury the lines? I'm not asking to bury every single one at once, just as we go along.

It is a win win situation. I'm kind of in shock that people are even debating me in this right now. Name one con besides the up front cost which is recovered shortly down the road by reduced maintenance.

I'll name what I can think, and so far, only one con comes to mind.

Con(s)

1. Upfront cost

Pros

1. Long term savings by reduced line maintenance(no downed lines due inclement weather or human error and no more cutting trees that overgrow on the lines)

2. Cleaner and less cluttered look

3. Overall better beautification(tree can grow taller along the roads)

Here is a good read on the matter


The winds may howl. The trees may fall. But in Germany, the lights stay on.
There's no Teutonic engineering magic to this impressive record. It's achieved by a very simple decision: Germany buries almost all of its low-voltage and medium-voltage power lines, the lines that serve individual homes and apartments. Americans could do the same. They have chosen not to.

Opinion: Why we should bury the power lines - CNN.com (http://www.cnn.com/2012/07/02/opinion/frum-buried-lines/)

Con(s)

1. Upfront cost


Add more cons:

Much harder to find a problem if the cable deteriorates
More expensive to add a connection of needed
More inherent danger to others that may dig into the line during other construction
60% longer time to repair

Electric users ask: Why not put power lines underground? - CNN.com (http://www.cnn.com/2014/02/12/us/winter-storm-power-lines/)

"After a 2002 storm that knocked out electricity to 2 million customers in North Carolina, regulators there took a look at what it would cost to bury the three major power companies' overhead lines. The state Utilities Commission concluded the project would be "prohibitively expensive.

"Such an undertaking would cost approximately $41 billion, nearly six times the net book value of the utilities' current distribution assets, and would require approximately 25 years to complete," the report states. Customers' rates would have to more than double to pay for the project, the commission' staff found."

Add more cons:

Much harder to find a problem if the cable deteriorates
More expensive to add a connection of needed
More inherent danger to others that may dig into the line during other construction
60% longer time to repair
With the new smart power grids, I'm sure new techonology can be made to find out where the problem is accurately without having to spend time looking for it.

More expensive to add a connection, maybe, but again, after you subtract the costs from trimming trees and no having to worry about the weather damaging the lines, it sorts itself out.

There is no danger if they are along the street with proper signage.

With the new smart power grids, I'm sure new techonology can be made to find out where the problem is accurately without having to spend time looking for it.

More expensive to add a connection, maybe, but again, after you subtract the costs from trimming trees and no having to worry about the weather damaging the lines, it sorts itself out.

There is no danger if they are along the street with proper signage.

Contractors hit lines all the time, even when properly marked, not to mention when properly marked. Smart grids are much more about the supply and delivery points than the lines themselves; detecting and repairing underground issues is still going to require access and appropriate, safe construction techniques.

nobody was really debating you about it.. just pointing out that it has nothing to do with beautification and everthing to do with money. you could just list upfront cost as the con.. and that pretty much is what is killing it.

Contractors hit lines all the time, even when properly marked, not to mention when properly marked. Smart grids are much more about the supply and delivery points than the lines themselves; detecting and repairing underground issues is still going to require access and appropriate, safe construction techniques.

Like I said, the benefits would outweigh the cost. As much as we spend repairing lines that have been damaged because they are exposed, I'm sure we would save money with them being underground during the long-term, not to mention how much more nice it would be not to have to look at them.

I remember when Dallas first started the DART street car system. I didn't notice the hanging lines/wires above. Unless you're really looking for the details of the lines, you probably won't see them.


https://sp.yimg.com/ib/th?id=HN.608014803561611432&pid=15.1&P=0

Dallas Area Rapid Transit - DART

Remember the commercials about wires?


https://sp2.yimg.com/ib/th?id=HN.608001772634442118&pid=15.1&P=0 https://sp2.yimg.com/ib/th?id=HN.607986637164120106&pid=15.1&P=0
...but are my wires ugly?



http://www.thunderfans.com/vforum/images/smilies/okc.gif "Oklahoma City looks oh-so pretty... ...as I get my kicks on Route 66." --Nat King Cole.http://www.thunderfans.com/vforum/images/smilies/okc.gif

DART is light rail (not streetcar) and those are higher capacity wires in its own ROW, as you can see in the pic. I agree that you barely notice the wires. ...

OKC's streetcar wires will be even less noticeable since they are even thinner/smaller poles etc and ONE wire.

Streetcars 4 DC » 2009 » September (http://streetcars4dc.org/?m=200909)

Next week, I'll try contacting both Republican and Democrat House & Senate leaders as well as my own Senator & House Representative to see what they think. Remember, we citizens have already passed MAPS 3 & the intent of our tax on ourselves was to complete all the MAPS 3 projects that were proposed. I doubt any Republican or Democrat would want to anger the citizenry of Oklahoma City. I think everyone in the state is proud of OKC & what a shining example we are setting for the rest of the nation. -- John

There is no guarantee that MAPS will happen as promised, in fact we can almost be guaranteed it won't. And it will be for the worse if the State Legislature senses there is interest from anyone in OKC to intervene and assert the Legislature's idea of what communities should be doing.

OKC already passed a common sense proposal (mirrored after what has worked in many other major urban cities) and the State Legislature got involved bc a private interest group called for it. They don't need a lot of tempting to knowingly damage the state's biggest city!

The Texas Republican Legislators hate Austin, and they've started monkeying around with Austin's city laws. Greg Abbot, the Republican candidate for governor, has proposed a law to ban Austin's ban on plastic bags. They've also tried to screw up Austin's attempts to protect its water and environment. I'm sure the craven morons in Oklahoma's state government would love to mess with OKC, too, if given the chance. They already have.

The Texas Republican Legislators hate Austin, and they've started monkeying around with Austin's city laws. Greg Abbot, the Republican candidate for governor, has proposed a law to ban Austin's ban on plastic bags. They've also tried to screw up Austin's attempts to protect its water and environment. I'm sure the craven morons in Oklahoma's state government would love to mess with OKC, too, if given the chance. They already have.

Did you miss the last couple years, they had already started preemptively passing state laws banning municipalities from enacting legislation OKC had been drafting.

One of the reasons we need OKC and Tulsa to be successful, we need a larger percentage of the state's population to be urban. Right now rural legislators have a lot of power, and they'd rather screw with the city than implement laws that benefit the state as a whole.

One of the reasons we need OKC and Tulsa to be successful, we need a larger percentage of the state's population to be urban. Right now rural legislators have a lot of power, and they'd rather screw with the city than implement laws that benefit the state as a whole.

While I definitely agree with this and think that Oklahoma's legislature leans too much towards rural interests, some of the state's worst legislators i.e. Sally Kern come from the the metro areas. What Oklahoma needs is more legislators with an agenda to move the state forward rather than fighting the culture wars.

One of the reasons we need OKC and Tulsa to be successful, we need a larger percentage of the state's population to be urban. Right now rural legislators have a lot of power, and they'd rather screw with the city than implement laws that benefit the state as a whole.

That's because of gerrymandering. It's already 2/3 OKC and Tulsa, but people in Tulsa and Edmond prefer to keep electing bumpkins.

Look at someone like.... Screw it all of our esteemed GOP state legislators.

Hope this isn't a sign to future progression of our streetcar...

Its Streetcar Stalled, Kansas City Mulls the Best Way Forward - CityLab (http://www.citylab.com/commute/2014/09/its-streetcar-stalled-kansas-city-mulls-the-best-way-forward/380735/)

Hope this isn't a sign to future progression of our streetcar...

Its Streetcar Stalled, Kansas City Mulls the Best Way Forward - CityLab (http://www.citylab.com/commute/2014/09/its-streetcar-stalled-kansas-city-mulls-the-best-way-forward/380735/)

It was killed in part because of a very well run misinformation campaign against the ballot initiative. We'll likely have to fight the same battles, but at least we're aware.

nm

The Kansas decision also has a lot to do with the method of funding, doesn't it?

The Kansas decision also has a lot to do with the method of funding, doesn't it?

Yep, which helped play into the misinformation campaign...

Sounds like the KC residents didn't want to approve a MAPS-like tax, whereas OKC residents don't seem to have a problem with that (since we've been doing it for years), and hopefully OKC residents will keep doing it instead of stopping after this MAPS.

I haven't followed KC's system close enough, but I don't think they were doing an RTA. The RTA would be a massive, multi-community initiative, and I think that pretty well makes it an entirely different scenario. Pretty sure this will be an issue that gets talked about quite a bit around the time it comes up to a vote, possibly more than MAPS ever has because it will involve the entire metro area.

I wonder if OKC will do that for metropolitan area light-rail

If memory serves, Kansas City has a "streetcar enthusiast" who said some really snarky things about OKC's streetcar plans. He was quoted a couple of times by Steve deriding couplets. Fortunately for us, ours is funded, and theirs relied on a screwy funding approach, and only went two miles. Also, we don't require federal funding. I'd say the situations are completely different.

Hope KC's streetcar gets "back on track," though.

Sounds like the KC residents didn't want to approve a MAPS-like tax, whereas OKC residents don't seem to have a problem with that (since we've been doing it for years), and hopefully OKC residents will keep doing it instead of stopping after this MAPS.

I just skimmed, but it sounded like what was rejected was a BID-type tax on properties fronting the alignment..? Similar to the special assessment districts along Broadway in OKC or along canal frontage in Bricktown but probably a LOT more...

And Guru, you're right, the KC streetcar advocate publicly ridiculed the OKC alignment when it was released.

Kansas City has two miles running north to south in the central business district. You call that a starter; it's more of a transit tray appetizer of two petite servings of hors d'oeuvres. :D

The two-mile, north-south KC Downtown Streetcar starter line will travel along Main Street and connect the River Market to Crown Center and Union Station and will serve the Central Business District...

KC Streetcar | Construction website (http://www.kcstreetcar.org/)


http://www.thunderfans.com/vforum/images/smilies/okc.gif "Oklahoma City looks oh-so pretty... ...as I get my kicks on Route 66." --Nat King Cole.http://www.thunderfans.com/vforum/images/smilies/okc.gif

I just skimmed, but it sounded like what was rejected was a BID-type tax on properties fronting the alignment..? Similar to the special assessment districts along Broadway in OKC or along canal frontage in Bricktown but probably a LOT more...

And Guru, you're right, the KC streetcar advocate publicly ridiculed the OKC alignment when it was released.

I don't disagree with the dislike of couplets; I don't think it's necessarily the best design. I like what KC has started, and I think they'll be able to get back on track.

I don't disagree with the dislike of couplets; I don't think it's necessarily the best design. I like what KC has started, and I think they'll be able to get back on track.

Well I politely disagree. I think the couplets in our route design will increase the ability to hop on and hop off from more locations in OKC. Were there not couplets, one would have to ride further to reach their destination. This just increases the opportunity for short trips on the streetcar to one's destination.

As for the jerkwad in Kansas City, he really is a poor representative of that city. Why is he running down OKC's system when his own system was clearly not solidified? As far as I've seen, people in OKC have been nothing but supportive of Kansas City's attempt to build a streetcar. Conversely, this guy was rapping all sorts of negative juice to our reporter when he visited Kansas City. Frankly, it's fairly obvious that Oklahoma City's streetcar process is far more sophisticated and sound than anything they tried up there.

Well I politely disagree. I think the couplets in our route design will increase the ability to hop on and hop off from more locations in OKC. Were there not couplets, one would have to ride further to reach their destination. This just increases the opportunity for short trips on the streetcar to one's destination.

As for the jerkwad in Kansas City, he really is a poor representative of that city. Why is he running down OKC's system when his own system was clearly not solidified? As far as I've seen, people in OKC have been nothing but supportive of Kansas City's attempt to build a streetcar. Conversely, this guy was rapping all sorts of negative juice to our reporter when he visited Kansas City. Frankly, it's fairly obvious that Oklahoma City's streetcar process is far more sophisticated and sound than anything they tried up there.

If we have short headways, then couplets aren't too bad, but if they are 15 minute headways, going to and from lunch (for a downtown worker) will be limited at best. 6-minute headways would be helpful.

As for the KC guy, I never got that feeling... maybe I've got thicker skin when it comes to criticism of OKC, or maybe it's because I wasn't born and raised here. We've had a few back-and-forths via Twitter and he didn't rag on OKC at all, other than the couplet design.

There is nothing wrong with being anti-couplet. That doesn't make you anti-streetcar in the slightest. Heck, I still am. ESPECIALLY for OKC. The criticism existed publicly when there was a public discussion and that's where the criticism ended. I hope both cities are successful in implementing what they've democratically supported and funded.

OF course there's nothing wrong with having the wrong opinion! If there were, this country would have collapsed some time ago. :)

As for the couplets, I prefer them in this context, and they scored highest by the paid consultants, so we got them.

The Kansas decision also has a lot to do with the method of funding, doesn't it?

On a side note I did think that limiting a ballot proposition to just voters in a special taxing district was just way too easy...

When are we expecting the next update on this project?

I believe it is in engineering right now. So, pretty much on autopilot as construction plans and engineering documents are drawn up.

We still have the drumroll until we know the actual budget.

We are in the process of taking bids and selecting the manufacturer for the streetcar vehicles now. We should have an initial recommendation this month and potentially approved in late December or mid January. Then we will know what our vehicle costs are. Other than the steel rail, this is probably the largest line item purchase in the budget. The question that affects the overall budget the most will be utility relication costs. That still remains to be bidded as part of the construction bidding.

Thanks for the update.

I am a bit worried that the city is going to go all out on the convention center and then cut or significantly scale back the streetcar. I am as pro-convention center as anyone and think the city needs to do it right, but the streetcar is an integral part of where downtown OKC is headed and I would hate to see it scaled down. Are these fears valid?