"Noisy, ugly streetcar" - from Lackmeyer article. Really? Maybe the education Mayor Cornett mentioned should start now.

Some data about streetcar and bus noise I found in a quick search:

Portland Streetcar running 20 mph, 50 ft from measuring point - average about 77 dBa. This is supported by data contained in the following chart.

Type of Vehicle Noise in decibels
Gasoline passenger car 62-67
LRT car 72-75
Medium-sized truck 73-78
Urban diesel bus 80-85

(Adapted from: Transport Action, Transport Canada 2000, October 2001; additional data from BC Transit, 1999 and Calgary Transit)

"Noisy, ugly streetcar" - Larry Nichols in Lackmeyer article. Really?

Some data about streetcar and bus noise I found in a quick search:

Portland Streetcar running 20 mph, 50 ft from measuring point - average about 77 dBa. This is supported by data contained in the following chart.

Type of Vehicle Noise in decibels
Gasoline passenger car 62-67
LRT car 72-75
Medium-sized truck 73-78
Urban diesel bus 80-85

(Adapted from: Transport Action, Transport Canada 2000, October 2001; additional data from BC Transit, 1999 and Calgary Transit)

This seems like yellow journalism.

This seems like yellow journalism.

A little fact checking would have contributed to a better, more informative article for sure.

A little fact checking would have contributed to a better, more informative article for sure.

Fact checking is one thing, but why not consult knowledgeable members of the streetcar subcommittee about the issues raised in the article? Or why not call the consultants who are going to be building it? That is journalism 101. This is pretty basic stuff. I don't know if the writer has an agenda against the streetcar but selective editing / reporting by screening out knowledgeable sources on one side of the issue is not good journalism.

Fact checking is one thing, but why not consult knowledgeable members of the streetcar subcommittee about the issues raised in the article? That is journalism 101.

That sounds like a reasonable expectation to me.

Rick Cain shouldn't be speaking on behalf of the streetcar and using him as the source to rebut none other than LN is.... What's the word?

Steve's defending against a claim on Twitter that the article is a "hit piece." Repeatedly says he's "bewildered." Worth reading over the conversation.

MAPS has already become a corrupt sham for THIS to be the only project in serious hot water when this has been the only above board, well planned project. It's time to really examine what MAPS has become. This is less like our first MAPS which was successful for tackling low hanging fruit, and more like Detroit's long list of badly, embarrassingly planned pet projects, look how that turned out.

A park we don't need anymore separated from becoming a comprehensive green span by a convention center we didn't want connected by a streetcar we won't get. There's yer stinkin MAPS right there.

One of the reasons MAPS III is not like MAPS I is that our city has changed a lot. We have more engaged / tuned in voters now. When the first MAPS was voted on, citizens were quite desperate to see any improvement. It still was a risky gambit but there was less public engagement on issues.

My neighborhood had a city-sponsored meeting this year in which city staff were going to unveil designs for a streetscape project. It was a completely packed house. I was told by city staff that they were surprised by the turnout.

One would expect MAPS III to be a bit more contentious. We have more voices -- and forums like this have provided a platform for real, unabashed discussion (note that the article we're discussing here didn't even allow reader comments. What does that say about the viability of that form of media going forward?).

As previously noted, the first MAPS had problems, it's just that the public was more forgiving -- and less involved (much more backroom management of the process).

Steve's defending against a claim on Twitter that the article is a "hit piece." Repeatedly says he's "bewildered." Worth reading over the conversation.

He's shifting the debate by responding to Spartan's comments, IMO. I'm still wondering if he did a paid book project for Nichols / Devon. To me that would make reporting on them rather suspect. The real problem with the piece is that he didn't consult knowledgeable people on the streetcar subcommittee (or the consultants) to respond to Nichols' questions. Why, I have no idea.

There is always some level of noise downtown, I doubt the streetcar will rise above the level of normal daily and nightly downtown white noise. It's not like a the noise of a freight train (which passes by Midtown, the CBD, and Bricktown. It will still make a ton of noise when It no longer sounds its horns). As for the issue of the wire, It seems rather a petty complaint.

My book was published by Full Circle not Devon or Nichols. I get paid through royalties from sales of books. This ongoing effort by soonerguru to attack my reputation is why I am no longer participating in okctalk. Pete I can't figure out why this is allowed to continue. The

Nm

Well this is one big giant "I told you so".

My book was published by Full Circle not Devon or Nichols. I get paid through royalties from sales of books. This ongoing effort by soonerguru to attack my reputation is why I am no longer participating in okctalk. Pete I can't figure out why this is allowed to continue. The

It's not an "effort," it's a reasonable question. If a reporter has a financial interest in maintaining a relationship, it's a fair question to ask whether their reporting could be affected by it. Just "asking questions," as you do every day in your job. As a reader, I wonder if you will report fairly on the matter; it seems clear to me that you did not invite participation from some of the more knowledgeable members of the subcommittee who probably could have / would have answered some of Mr. Nichols' concerns. Fair? The fact the newspaper didn't allow comments after the article is bizarre. The piece reads as if it's a sounding board for one person -- admittedly a very powerful one.

I don't think Steve's book on the building of Devon Tower was in any way paid for by Devon. He's written several books on OKC history and developments, after all. And knowing the book business as I do, I can almost guarantee there was little money to be made here anyway.


I've said before that Nichols has an ethical responsibility to not abuse his power and influence and I stand by that statement.

The opinion of Nichols is no way just another voice, as evidenced by the all caps, somewhat misleading headline in the Oklahoman's business section:

http://www.okctalk.com/images/wikiphotos/oklahoman72313.jpg

The fact the newspaper didn't allow comments after the article is bizarre.

Soonerguru, I am not sure where you are getting that the comments are turned off. If you look at it online, it is locked for Oklahoman subscribers only. I think they do that for a day and then it will be able to be viewed by the public. If you look at it on your smart phone, you can read the entire article and see that there are comments. I can post them for you if you care to see them...

Soonerguru, I am not sure where you are getting that the comments are turned off. If you look at it online, it is locked for Oklahoman subscribers only. I think they do that for a day and then it will be able to be viewed by the public. If you look at it on your smart phone, you can read the entire article and see that there are comments. I can post them for you if you care to see them...

Where I got that is from the statement "Comments are Disabled for this Article."

I trust what you're saying is true.

But since the article is out there in part, one can only read the headline and first paragraph, which indicates that Nichols is going to try to kill the project.

Rick Cain should be a trusted commenter (the fact that most people know he knows little doesn't help on here, but publicly he's an ok, and appropriate, source), and the Mayor himself commented in the article to say that noise and other things shouldn't be an issue. I don't understand how this could be considered as a hit piece written by Steve. Pete is right - Larry carries huge weight, and that makes news. The responsibility now lies with those who want the streetcar to rise up and make their support constantly known to Council.

This is very much like what happened in Fort Worth. They had the route, much of the funds, and were ready to go when a few downtown business interests got Council to turn it down. Fort Worth Council Votes Against Streetcar Project, Gives Up $25 Million in Federal Grant - Dallas - News - Unfair Park (http://blogs.dallasobserver.com/unfairpark/2010/12/fort_worth_council_votes_again.php)

The opinion of Nichols is no way just another voice, as evidenced by the all caps, somewhat misleading headline in the Oklahoman's business section:


I'm not sure how misleading the headline is. He does oppose the planned streetcar. He doesn't like the route identified and he doesn't like the propulsion system. If this were powered by natural gas his concerns about economic development, noise, and laying track in P180 streets would vanish like a fart in the wind. In my opinion he is more concerned about the shareholders of Devon than he is the people of OKC.

Where I got that is from the statement "Comments are Disabled for this Article."

I trust what you're saying is true.

But since the article is out there in part, one can only read the headline and first paragraph, which indicates that Nichols is going to try to kill the project.

I believe it is disabled unless you are a subscriber. Again, you can view the entire article through your smart phone if you have one. That might be your best bet so you know exactly what the article says.

http://www.okctalk.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=4179

This is why people are saying comments are disabled. It needs a better error message if they are actually enabled for subscribers.

That does look exactly like the notice about comments being disabled for other controversial or crime stories on NewsOK.com.

Interesting that they post it that way. I never noticed that. I guess things have changed since they started posting some articles for subscribers only.

...
I do find it amusing that the Oklahoman has disabled comments for the article. Is that to protect Larry? Seriously, it's not a crime story; why disable comments on something that is extremely public in nature and affects public money and was voted on by the public? Why is a private individual afforded a comment-free zone on a public initiative that was voted for by the taxpayers? If the Oklahoman has an ounce of credibility, it will allow public commentary on this very public issue.

...


FWIW, when I log into Oklahoman.com and view the article, the comments section is open. There was only one comment, left about 7 hours ago.
I did not add a comment myself. I do not have, and have no plans to create, a facebook page, which apparently is a base requirement to enter comments at either Oklahoman.com or newsok.com

having no ax to grind against LN or streetcar, I did not see the piece as a fluffer for LN or a hit piece on the streetcar. To me it was a rehash of what happened at the meeting the other day when the comments were made. If memory serves, I noted in the thread about that meeting this was not the first time such concerns were raised about wires or by folks who seemed to have priorities other than the streetcar.

I recall some time back when folks were up in arms because stakeholders were being interviewed and not speaking well on the streetcar. Sitting in Norman on the outside, it's never seemed as secure from a distance as some have treated it, which is just short of being declared as off limits by a deity de jure.

I actually hope OKC gets it. I can see some benefits to it being in place. But anyone thinking it is a done deal, or that anything in MAPs3 not already paid for is a done deal, is pretty much dreaming. the down side to voting for a tax increase and a non binding resolution listing out projects is, like it or not, folks only voted for the tax increase, and decided to trust their local politicos and movers and shakers to keep the faith.

Luck to the streetcar proponents. Not certain either of the two council elections since MAPs3 have actually improved its potential for success, and luck may definitely be needed before all is said and done.

It is important that we all be vocal and don't allow this to be killed. I think it will improve our city and be a plus in the local coffers.

Rick Cain should be a trusted commenter (the fact that most people know he knows little doesn't help on here, but publicly he's an ok, and appropriate, source), and the Mayor himself commented in the article to say that noise and other things shouldn't be an issue. I don't understand how this could be considered as a hit piece written by Steve. Pete is right - Larry carries huge weight, and that makes news. The responsibility now lies with those who want the streetcar to rise up and make their support constantly known to Council.

This is very much like what happened in Fort Worth. They had the route, much of the funds, and were ready to go when a few downtown business interests got Council to turn it down. Fort Worth Council Votes Against Streetcar Project, Gives Up $25 Million in Federal Grant - Dallas - News - Unfair Park (http://blogs.dallasobserver.com/unfairpark/2010/12/fort_worth_council_votes_again.php)

I read the article on Fort Worth. It's hard for me to understand why they would vote to give back funding for the project to the Feds. I'm not familiar with their project, but was it approved by voters? To me that is the issue with the MAPS streetcar. It received public support. To kill the project at this point would be to deny the voters.

I read the article on Fort Worth. It's hard for me to understand why they would vote to give back funding for the project to the Feds. I'm not familiar with their project, but was it approved by voters? To me that is the issue with the MAPS streetcar. It received public support. To kill the project at this point would be to deny the voters.

killing any of the maps 3 projects kills the maps brand

killing any of the maps 3 projects kills the maps brand

Maybe they think they could just rebrand it. Simple anagram: SPAM. It could stand for Special Projects Announced by Manipulation.

This is what happened in Ft Worth and we must be vigilant or it could happen here:

"A combination of misinformation (whether it was via ignorance or intentional misdirection is a question history will decide), me-first can't-do attitudes, and complete political spinelessness on the part of the council got us here. Particularly disappointing is Mayor Moncrief, who has supported the project for years. He folded to back-room politics and wimped out of standing behind the project."

That is NOT meant as a comment on Mayor Cornett. I think his remarks in Lackmeyer's article were very positive and he has been a streetcar supporter from the beginning.

My book was published by Full Circle not Devon or Nichols. I get paid through royalties from sales of books. This ongoing effort by soonerguru to attack my reputation is why I am no longer participating in okctalk. Pete I can't figure out why this is allowed to continue. The

Come on, dude. That wasn't an attack any more than the "attacks" you print in the paper or on your blog. If you can dish it there, you can take it here. It was a legit question with legit concerns about how the article was written. We're allowed to have opinions on those things without "attacking" and calls for the moderator to shut someone down, okay?

This is what happened in Ft Worth and we must be vigilant or it could happen here:

"A combination of misinformation (whether it was via ignorance or intentional misdirection is a question history will decide), me-first can't-do attitudes, and complete political spinelessness on the part of the council got us here. Particularly disappointing is Mayor Moncrief, who has supported the project for years. He folded to back-room politics and wimped out of standing behind the project."

We've already seen a lot of ignorance and misdirection on display. The answer to that is education, as the Mayor mentioned. Not always an easy task when you're trying to relate complicated engineering, economic development, and aesthetic concerns to people who simply don't understand the issues involved. This is something the Oklahoman could do. It would be refreshing to see more in-depth reporting on these issues and less "he said she said" controversies.

There's a lot of work to do to provide this education, and apparently this is one of the only forums that exist for that to take place.

Unlike Spartan, I don't always defend Steve but I didn't see anything wrong with the article either nor did I see anything that was even new. I have known for 2 years now that LN didn't want the streetcar. If I can figure it out everyone should have been able to figure it out.


killing any of the maps 3 projects kills the maps brand

I am pretty sure it is already dead, and maybe it should be. I won't support another one.

On edit, in fact, I am quickly approaching the point of supporting a MAPS III nullification vote and then revoting on the projects one by one in the same election.

Item 1: Shall MAPS III be nullified?
Item 2: Shall the convention center be built funded by a temporary 1 cent sales
Item 3: Shall the streetcar be built funded by a temporary 1 cent sales
Item 4: Shall the central park be built funded by a temporary 1 cent sales
Item 5: ....

I'll take my chance with that vote.

I am amazed that Steve is being attacked in this forum. This is my eighth year of monitoring this board and there is no doubt in my mind that Steve is an urbanist and is pro streetcar to the point that he often slants his stories towards that end. The Larry Nichols article, as much as I can tell from the small amount excerpted from the article is clearly a news story with no bias on Steve's part and is strictly a news piece where Nichols was quoted at a meeting of the urban renewal authority.

If Steve wanted to do a hit piece he would write a story about unanswered questions regarding the streetcar such as where is the money coming from for operations; where will the money come from to replace the streetcars when they wear out in ten to twelve years; how much maintenance cost is involved in keeping the streetcars running; and since the federal dollars that were touted so much in selling the streetcar project have failed to show up is there a real possibility it will or or was it simply a pipe dream of the raily community. I would also like to know how the people that actually need public transportation feel about a transportation system that there is only a slim chance they will ever use.

It is my hope that Steve has learned a lesson here and he will drift back to the center and cover both sides of issues like a real reporter should and leave his bias out of his articles regardless of which side his bias falls on.

I am pretty sure it is already dead, and maybe it should be. I won't support another one.

Really? What if it was different leadership by that point?

I am pretty sure it is already dead, and maybe it should be. I won't support another one.

If true, then Tulsa here we come!

I'm not as cynical...yet. This current sideshow could be a psyops campaign to weaken morale, and convince folks that "the fix is in." Don't let yourself believe that until the last MAPS check has been written. While your theory is probably true, regarding the intent of some insiders, they still have to go through the citizens, as do the council members.

Perhaps the concept of a MAPS-style campaign can't work today because we have become too divided as a city to compromise. I still refuse to believe it. Were that to be true it would not be a positive thing for OKC. Warts and all, MAPS has been a transformational incubator of growth and progress for OKC. It's a tool we have in our arsenal that few other cities do. We should all fight to ensure that ALL of the MAPS projects are completed, whether we personally supported them or not, because that is the essence of MAPS. Let's not let a few insiders or powerbrokers screw up a good thing.

If Steve wanted to do a hit piece he would write a story about unanswered questions regarding the streetcar, such as where is the money coming from for operations; where will the money come from to replace the streetcars when they wear out in ten to twelve years; how much maintenance cost is involved in keeping the streetcars running; and since the federal dollars that were touted so much in selling the streetcar project have failed to show up is there a real possibility it will or or was it simply a pipe dream of the raily community. I would also like to know how the people that actually need public transportation feel about a transportation system that there is only a slim chance they will ever use.

These O&M questions have been asked, and they have been answered by the city manager, who has publicly stated the city has the money to cover it. As for the federal dollars, you have to have a system in place before you can get them (or, perhaps, some clout in Washington through your elected representatives). The jury is still out on federal funding, but the point of the MAPS streetcar in the first place was that it didn't require federal funding; any extant funding that would come about would allow for expansion opportunity. This has been covered endlessly here.

Extremely disappointed in Larry Nichols right now. The streetcar will spur more development and street life far beyond what Devon Tower will.

Really? What if it was different leadership by that point?

First, I think the MAPS funding mechanism is outdate for OKC now. When the first MAPS passed it was at a period of time when not much was changing. The city wasn't dynamic. You could put a 5 or 10 year plan in palce and all the assumptions would still be valid by the time you got around to executing the plan. That isn't the case now. Downtown OKC is changing every month. We can't plan specific projects 5 to 10 years out because the assumptions won't apply then.

Second, in retrospect, creating of pile of money with no legal obligation as to how it is spent was probably a bad idea.

Comments ARE allowed. One was left nine hours ago by a John Murray, the other 28 minutes ago by a Ben Felder.

There is always some level of noise downtown, I doubt the streetcar will rise above the level of normal daily and nightly downtown white noise. It's not like a the noise of a freight train (which passes by Midtown, the CBD, and Bricktown. It will still make a ton of noise when It no longer sounds its horns). As for the issue of the wire, It seems rather a petty complaint.

This is something I don't understand either. If Larry is so upset about the prospect of noise downtown, why was he not clamoring for the downtown quiet zone? How does he support buses? This part of his argument just strikes me as bull****.

I am amazed that Steve is being attacked in this forum.
It is my hope that Steve has learned a lesson here and he will drift back to the center and cover both sides of issues like a real reporter should and leave his bias out of his articles regardless of which side his bias falls on.

Please reconcile those two statements in the same post, the first expressing amazement that Steve is being attacked, and the last saying that you hope he learned his lesson.

Comments ARE allowed. One was left nine hours ago by a John Murray, the other 28 minutes ago by a Ben Felder.

They ARE allowed for subscribers only, as has been pointed out in this thread. For anyone who isn't, the "Comments have been disabled for this article" message appears. Hence the reason for the confusion.

killing any of the maps 3 projects kills the maps brand

What if they were to merely wound one or more MAPs3 projects? Suppose someone miscalculated the amount of trails to be provided, the level of programming appropriate for a park compared to the sales pitch, the number and scope of aquatic centers, etc. Oh, wait.

I just read the article. It is not a hit piece at all. The fact that a major voice in the community opposes this (for complete BS reasons) needs to be published.

What if they were to merely wound one or more MAPs3 projects? Suppose someone miscalculated the amount of trails to be provided, the level of programming appropriate for a park compared to the sales pitch, the number and scope of aquatic centers, etc. Oh, wait.

Excellent point. So why pick on the only project that appears to have not wildly miscalculated its budgetary needs?

I just read the article. It is not a hit piece at all. The fact that a major voice in the community opposes this (for complete BS reasons) needs to be published.

Spartan referred to it as a "hit piece." No one else has. The question is why more knowledgeable members of the streetcar subcommittee -- who could have addressed Nichols' concerns -- were not interviewed or quoted.

Remember that Larry Nichols is now chairman of the OKC Ubran Renewal Authority (OCURA).

So, not only is he speaking as a private citizen and Devon Chairman, he's attached in an official capacity to some powerful decision-making bodies (he also sits on the Devon TIF committee, the convention center committee and several others).

He holds a LOT of power -- both officially and informally -- over what happens in our central core.

Thus, the position he seems to be taking regarding the streetcar and his corresponding statements are concerning not just due to this project and the future of MAPS, but also how he views urban development in general.

Excellent point. So why pick on the only project that appears to have not wildly miscalculated its budgetary needs?

Pure speculation on my part, but let's say there is, oh, I dunno, perhaps a monetary issue with another desired project out there, and perhaps it's not an insignificant issue. Were that to be an issue, where else on the Isle of MAPs3 would one decide to dig for a decent size chest of treasure?

The comments on the article are extremely face-palm worthy.

The comments on the article are extremely face-palm worthy.

That is what happens when they limit it to people with facebook.

If one more person cites the monorail at Disney as a good example of mass transit I am going the scream.

There is always some level of noise downtown, I doubt the streetcar will rise above the level of normal daily and nightly downtown white noise. It's not like a the noise of a freight train (which passes by Midtown, the CBD, and Bricktown. It will still make a ton of noise when It no longer sounds its horns). As for the issue of the wire, It seems rather a petty complaint.

Yes. A modern streetcar should not raise the noise level more so than any vehicle with a combustion engine and it will be quieter than most commercial vehicles.

It's funny, because the most consistent contributors to noise pollution in the downtown vicinity are the freeways that border it.

Maybe they think they could just rebrand it. Simple anagram: SPAM. It could stand for Special Projects Announced by Manipulation.

This is probably the most well thought of anagram I have ever seen. Bravo!

With regard to LN wanting a city like Houston, you must remember that Houston has streetcars too.

Please reconcile those two statements in the same post, the first expressing amazement that Steve is being attacked, and the last saying that you hope he learned his lesson.

OK. How simple does this need to be? I am amazed because in my opinion Steve has always been a champion of this forum by including his bias of urbanism in news articles he writes, so to see a member or members of the forum attacking him about an article he wrote with no bias towards either side of the story amazes me. The lesson I hope he learned is that if you don't stay in the center, or bias free to put it another way, will cause the people you have been supporting to turn on you when the usual bias does not show up. Were you looking for a different type of reconciliation?

Unlike Spartan, I don't always defend Steve but I didn't see anything wrong with the article either nor did I see anything that was even new. I have known for 2 years now that LN didn't want the streetcar. If I can figure it out everyone should have been able to figure it out.



I am pretty sure it is already dead, and maybe it should be. I won't support another one.

On edit, in fact, I am quickly approaching the point of supporting a MAPS III nullification vote and then revoting on the projects one by one in the same election.

Item 1: Shall MAPS III be nullified?
Item 2: Shall the convention center be built funded by a temporary 1 cent sales
Item 3: Shall the streetcar be built funded by a temporary 1 cent sales
Item 4: Shall the central park be built funded by a temporary 1 cent sales
Item 5: ....

I'll take my chance with that vote.

you don't live here ... i don't really care if you support it or not ...

Noisy? Ugly? I don't think so.

It needs to be pointed out that the clips of the streetcars coming around the corner is probably the loudest they will ever be. The sharp turn causes maximum wheel impingement and thus the increased squeaking. The line also includes a handful of points - or locations where two rails cross - that have gaps that result in the highest noise levels. Yet the cars going by were as loud or louder.


http://youtu.be/2F8hlkYsm4I

The comments on the article are extremely face-palm worthy.

Perhaps they were just trying to match the quality of some of the quotes in the article.

Couldn't it be argued that streetcars -- at least the electric variety that Nichols is so concerned about -- are quieter than buses which use combustion engines?

And it certainly results in reduced emissions.

Couldn't it be argued that streetcars -- at least the electric variety that Nichols is so concerned about -- are quieter than buses which use combustion engines?

And it certainly results in reduced emissions.

It would seem his bigger issue is the overhead wires. And perhaps he has a view of streetcars that is based on older technology. Again, this is where education is key.

The quotes I've seen attributed to Larry don't actually say he's against the project. He's saying he would be against it "if" it were ugly and noisy and detract from downtown's improvements.

Am I wrong? Is there actually a quote from him that he's against it, or trying to kill it?

They are about 10 dBa quieter than a diesel engine powered bus Pete. That is actually a bigger difference than many people may think because the decibel scale is exponential.

There is a pretty clear comparison of noise levels of automobile and streetcar at the 2:00 mark. Much of Paris' tram system operates on transit malls or green medians. I think a green median along Broadway with platforms on both sides of the rails is an idea worth exploring. But that is probably heresy to traffic engineers.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dp9llfJcIZY

you don't live here ... i don't really care if you support it or not ...

Boulder, I hope you don't live in Edmond or any other burb with all of these accusations. The reality is that a lot of the Chamber board and top staff live outside of OKC proper and have never felt the necessity to move into the city limits in order to have due influence on city affairs.

I'll address the article fallout again here soon.. I've had some evolving thoughts.